Where I am at with a new Build

nozzferrahhtoo · 23-04-2010 10:58am #1

Bring on the advice and critique of my choices!

Hi guys, playing with a new build now to compare with a Dell buy before going ahead with it. I am living in Germany and once I decide on my components I will shop around for better prices, but for now only I am pricing my system based on:

http://www.nb-computer.de

which seem to be competitive enough to give me a rough estimate before shopping around.

Here is what I am thinking about and would welcome advise on whether I am going too far or not far enough with components. As for my requirements, very simply really. I rarely do anything TOO intensive but occasionally I do buy a game like Metro 2033 and high end shooters and the like but most of my gaming is on games like Monkey Island and Sam N Max. So while I do not need to go over kill on Graphics, I would like something thats likely to work with games for a while to come. Other than that I do little but browse the web and Citrix into work.

Case and MoBo are where I know the least and need most advice. Again my main criteria is future upgradeability!!

Here are my selections and reasoning so far:

CPU: i7-930 2.80 €270

My reasoning here over going for a cheaper i5 dual core or AMD is upgradeability. This is one of the lower end socket LGA1366 CPUs. I drooled over the i7 6 core i7 980x a bit but its new and the price is really high. However it is LGA 1366 so my reasoning here is to grab the i7-930 and swap in a 980x a year or so down the line. So this choice appears to be the upgradeability ideal??

Case €140 ???

This is where I need the most advice. I do not know the difference between Big Tower, Midi Tower, etc. I simply am total newbie here. I am not a looks junkie on this. I do not care about LEDs or not, weight of the box, shape, attractiveness or any of that. My only concerns are a) space inside for future upgrading (like adding a second monster size Graphics Card down the line etc thinks like the GTX 280 overclock take up SPACE) and heat cooling properties (built in fans, vents, shape, space for graphics card heatsinks etc). So heat and flexibility are my concerns.

MoBo ASUS Rampage II Extreme X58 €325

Not sure on this either. Again flexibility and upgradeability is the key. So slots for a second graphics PCIe card would be useful. I picked this randomly from the list on the site I mentioned, but open to suggestion here. At 26% of the total build this is pricey, but random. So I am very open. Anyone know what the Dell alien ware MoBo actually is? I put in dual graphics cards and a PCIe Network card in the Dell build and it errored telling me too many PCIe slots needed.

Inno3D GeForce GTX 260 896MB VGA/DVI/HDMI Retail €185

Seems to be the best choice for games at the moment. The €400 GTX 470 or even 480 might be overkill at this time? The 260 seems to be enough to run most modern games smoothly enough, even though maybe not at peak graphics settings? If modern games run at medium to above medium settings Im happy. Upgrade down the line could be putting in a second 260, or buying simply a better card.

Memory 6144MB DDR3 PC1600 €175

Seems to be the way to go, 1600 is pretty much as good as it gets?

Hard Disk €150

I am not a big user of space. At most I have my OS, a couple of DVD files, a couple of Television shows, some music and one game at any one time. I think therefore a smaller size but faster option would suit me better. for that reason I am looking at a 64GB Solid State option for €150. They seem to be the fastest option going. I also have a decent size hard disk in my old box which I can use for file dump storage for files I wont access much.

Other

I rarely use my DVD drive, maybe 5 times in the last 2 years. So I will salvage that from the old machine. I also bought a mid range "Be quiet" power supply recently which I think will be enough to salvage. I have been using on board sound and network for the last 6 years, so see no reason to change now despite my new 25MB broadband connection. I am also happy with my current Dell and LG digital monitors, wireless keyboard and mouse.

This leaves me with a computer buy of around €1245.

I specced an Alien Ware Dell PC with the same options as close as I could get them which came out at €1950 but I do not know what their MoBo is, and it was dual graphics cards of a slightly lower spec (250 or 240 cant remember). Everything else was essentially the same.

TiNcAn · 23-04-2010 11:21am

Here's my 2 cents.

Processor The i7 is a very good choice for futureproofing. Has a lot of power and will do anything with ease. The i7 930 that you choose is a poor choice though since the i7 920 is pretty much identical just slightly underclocked. So for that reason go for the i7-920 and save yourself a bit of money.

Case Not so sure in this area myself. All I can do is recommend you and the case which I have which is an antec p180. It is a tower with lots of room, good airflow, lots of utility and is specially designed to minimise noise.

Mobo Also not to sure on this area.

Graphics You should splash out a bit more for a better graphics card. While a GTX 260 will play all the games out today it does not have Directx11. It would be a wiser choice to go for somthing like a GTX470 or ATi 58XX to futureproof yourself.

Memory Memory does get better than that going all the way up to ~2000mhz but to take full advantage you need to have a good motherboard and processor. 6gb is enough and you will be unlikely to need any more than that. I would suggest getting ram with a speed of 1600-2000mhz a reasonably low timings e.g. 9-9-9-24.

Hard Disk I would recommend you get a 80gb intel x-25m SSD. They are very fast and come at a reasonable value. You mentioned that you are not a big space user but even so your still going to need another drive. A small mechanical drive such as Samsung Spinpoint F3 500gb are cheap enough and would also help you to futureproof yourself.

nozzferrahhtoo · 23-04-2010 11:52am

Thanks for that!

1) I think you are totally right on the CPU. I will decide this when I do my final price compare. The difference is only €14 on the site I linked to above which is why I went to the 930. But I am seeing on other sides a bigger difference making the 920 seem more attractive.

2) I have a semi decent mechanical drive for dumping long term files on, so size in my solid state is not an issue at all. Speed is the key for me with the drive. I will have to compare the speed of the drive I listed and the one you recommended now.

I will take what you have said on board and go back and re-spec a little and re-post my spec for further critique. I am noticing that there are limited numbers of MoBos that support USB 3 right now, and if i make that a future proofing criteria, the vast array of boards to choose from are reduced to a manageable level.

nozzferrahhtoo · 23-04-2010 12:04pm

Hard Disks:

The cheapest version of the hard disk you recommend I can find is:
Intel X25-M G2 Postville 80GB, 2.5", SATA II (SSDSA2MH080G2C1/SSDSA2MH080G201)
lesen: 250MB/s • schreiben: 70MB/s • Cache: 32MB • Anschluss: SATA II • €187

but I am seeing this to compare to:
Corsair Reactor R60 SSD 60GB, 2.5", SATA II/USB 2.0 (CSSD-R60GB2)
lesen: 250MB/s • schreiben: 110MB/s • Cache: 128MB • Anschluss: SATA II • €150

A bit cheaper but a bit smaller. But faster write speeds and 4 times bigger cache. I am tempted by this one now! Is Corsair generally good or bad?

marco_polo · 23-04-2010 12:09pm

For a case I would look at the Coolermaster HAF 922 or 932, great airflow and cable management.
Either have loads of room for even the largest video cards.

GPU seems like a strange choice TBH, Nvidia have not been the best option graphics wise for the last two generations. If you are getting a DX 10 card the 4890 would be a much superior card to the 260 and cheaper as well at about 150 on pixmania, hell even the 4870 would be way cheaper again and a little better. Only issue with these would be availability.

Personally if you have a decent budget I would get the 5850 myself for if you are looking at performance, or a 5770 if you are looking to scale back the budget a little, also a 5770 would be far more power/heat efficent than a 260 while offering similar performance.

nozzferrahhtoo · 23-04-2010 12:29pm

Kewl thanks for that. I know there is a big argument between fans of Nvidia and ATI, just like PC and apple, and I do not know where I am on that. So I just opened a price compare machine. I do not want anything special, just something that can handle current games on medium settings. So to be totally unbiased I put in the following minimums:

1) less than €200
2) At least 1gig memory
3) GDDR5 memory
4) At least two DVI outputs.
5) PCIE2 minimum

The results range from cheapest €116 (Radeon 4870) to this card:

XFX Radeon HD 4890 900M XXX, 1024MB GDDR5, 2x DVI, TV-out, PCIe 2.0 (HD-489A-ZDD) Chiptakt: 900MHz, Speichertakt: 975MHz • Chip: RV790

nozzferrahhtoo · 23-04-2010 12:37pm

I am reading that dual 240's would be very cheap and is fast enough to run cryengine on full? But I am gathering from your opinions above that this is not something you guys would recommend?

marco_polo · 23-04-2010 1:30pm

What are the resolutions of you current monitors, this would be a factor in getting the best fit for you needs. I would go with one good card for now rather than two weaker ones in SLI / crossfire. Although multi GPU performance is getting much better, where possible single card is generally preferable to two. Also this gives you the option of dropping in another one in the future for an easy future upgrade.

Also just noticed you haven't mentioned a PSU. Do you have one already or was it just an oversight?

nozzferrahhtoo · 23-04-2010 1:44pm

Ok thanks, I will spend a little more time on graphics cards tonight and get back but it looks like the one listed above is the best I can get without crossing €200.

The reason I am scrimping however is that I have a GTX 285 OverClocked 2 right now and its a lovely beast, but it gave trouble in my old computer and I think it might be buggered. Due to limited space in the old case I think the Heat sink fan on it was obstructed too much and it may have over heated on me!!! This is what started me into the idea of just getting a whole new PC today.

I am going to try and fix it or get a replacement under warranty and if I can then it will be going into the newly built PC. I came into it cheap on the 2nd hand however so I am not sure how the warranty stands right now.

So I am only looking for something really cheap now until I know whats happening with that piece of kit as it would be more than enough for my needs I think. I would hate to pump money into a decent card and then find that the 285 works after all.

I did mention a PSU in the first post but only in passing. I mentioned I got a mid range "Be Quiet" model recently in order to power the graphics card above. The old power unit did not have the right connectors etc.

nozzferrahhtoo · 23-04-2010 1:49pm

"Be quiet" Pure Power 530W ATX 2.3

Jonny7 · 23-04-2010 2:23pm

Looks like your main reason for upgrading is to get a PC that is easily upgraded in the future?

But for now you don't need a beast of a PC as you aren't doing any ultra hardcore gaming..

Then I would perhaps suggest a large case, an Antec

Into which you could put an SLI compatible motherboard

Get one ATI 5770 graphics card (can handle all games at the mo + dx11 + low power draw + ATI really are light years ahead of nVidia at the mo))
To which you could SLI another 5770 down the line and would leave you the most space for upgrading

Apart from that I would recommend -
i5 750 Quad core processor (cheaper than the 920/930, still excellent performance) + 1156 compatible board
4 gigs ddr3 ram
1 tb samsung F3 drive (still one of the best mechanical drives out there)

PSU is up to you, whether you want a 550w or 650w Corsair, 650w would be better for future graphics cards.

That build would leave you plenty of change and plenty of space and be plenty powerful enough for what you need without getting into 920/930 territory, which honestly, may be a little overkill for what you need

With all that change you could invest in an SSD harddrive which would visibily give you the most performance e.g. windows starting up in 17 seconds instead of one minute, loading times drastically reduced etc etc

marco_polo · 23-04-2010 2:30pm

*cough* crossfire

nozzferrahhtoo · 23-04-2010 2:54pm

Ok made some changes based on advice so far. Still holding out hope my GTX285-OC2 is salvageable!! But until then… New spec below with reasoning attached. Looks like an ok system to me so far!

CPU: i7-920 2.67 €205

Again want to stay with LGA1366 for later upgrade to 6 core i7 980x so not considering any i5.

Case €140 ???

Still have about 5 options here but all around €140 and all what I need. Final decision will come down to WHERE my computer will be and hence WHERE the built in fans are on the case (I think I will be avoiding too many side fans and opting more for front and back.

MOBO: ASRock X58 Extreme3, X58 (triple PC3-10667U DDR3) €179

Cheaper than my previous €325 option but has all I would need as follows:

6x DDR3
2 x PCIe 2.0 x16 - 1x PCIe 2.0 x16 - 1x PCIe x1 - 2x PCI
Extern: 2x USB 3.0, 6x USB 2.0 (1x shared eSATAp), 1x FireWire, 1x Gb LAN (RTL8111DL), 1x eSATA (shared USB), 7.1 Audio
intern: 4x USB 2.0 - 1x FireWire - 2x SATA 6Gb/s RAID 0/1 - 6x SATA II RAID 0/1/5/10 - 1x PATA
Graphics: ATI CrossFireX (x16/x16) AND nVIDIA SLI (x16/x16)

Anything I am missing here?

Graphics: ASUS Radeon HD 5770, 1024MB GDDR5 €135

Seems to be enough for me for now with the level of gaming I actually do. Can drop in another 5770 later or upgrade when prices come down. Hopefully I will not need this at all however and my GTX285-OC2 is salvageable or replaceable.

G.Skill Kit 6GB PC3-16000U CL9-9-9-24 (DDR3-2000) €185

Found a better price here for the same make but faster RAM. Shopped around and for €10 more I get 2000 rather than 1666.

Hard Disk: Corsair Reactor 60GB, 2.5", SATA II 250MB/s • 110MB/s • 128MB €150

Great price and speed compared to the Intel I was recommended above. Not seeing much out there to compete without a big jump in price into the €300s. I have a decent sized mech drive for long term file dumping, so Really 60gb is probably double what I will ever use.

Other

I rarely use my DVD drive, maybe 5 times in the last 2 years. So I will salvage that from the old machine.

I have already a "Be quiet" Pure Power 530W ATX 2.3

I have been using on board sound and network for the last 6 years, so see no reason to change now despite my new 25MB broadband connection. I am also happy with my current Dell and LG digital monitors, wireless keyboard and mouse.

This leaves me with a computer buy of around €994.

marco_polo · 23-04-2010 3:45pm

As always I have a money saving suggestion

. That board seems like a bit of overkill, I doubt you will ever need 3 X PCIe slots. And all of them are PCIe X16 by the looks of it as well which is essentially what they are charging a premium for.

A board with 1X PCIe x16 slot and one 1 PCIe x8 slot should be a bit cheaper and wouldn't affect the crossfire performance of the sort of cards you are looking at all much if indeed at all.

http://www.thetomorrowtimes.com/2010/03/ati-raddeon-5770-pcie-x16-vs-pcie-x8.html

However I am not well versed on the best 1366 boards around so maybe somebody else could reccomend a good slightly cheaper alternative.

Dublin_Gunner · 23-04-2010 3:46pm

But a new PSU. You'll thank me for it.

That 'be Quiet' really is a poor model, and the PSU is arguably the most important part of any system.

You stated your GTS285 was acting up in your old rig? I'd be inclined to state that the PSU may be at fault for that (one of the most common reasons for poor GPU performance).

Then with a fast Core i7, a power hungry GPU, and wanting room to expand - to me a new PSU would be a no brainer.

I'd scrap your SSD idea, use the cash for a good, solid PSU, and maybe get 2/3 500GB drives to raid instead.

You will barely notice the difference the SSD will give anyway, unless you plan on sitting down and benchmarking HDD performance all day...

Also, if you can get a good 1333Mhz ram kit for cheaper than the 1600Mhz stuff, go for that. Once again, you will honestly notice NO difference in everyday use, even high end gaming.

As you're saying you want to future proof for the 6 cores etc - Intel are actually releasing a new socket next year for the Sandy Bridge architecture, so if I was you, I'd save a bit now, and as was stated above, go for an i5 750 with a s1156 board.

Why you seem to think you need to put all your eggs into a powerful CPU I'll never know.

Most of todays programs that took advantage of extra cores and fast CPU speed run fantastically quicker on the GPU. Such as video encoding / transcoding, 3D gfx work etc.

Its up to you at the end of the day, but they would be my STRONG recommendations.

So,

i5 750
4/6GB DDR3-1333
Good LGA1156 board, such as one of the new Gigabyte models
2/3 x 500GB (or 2 x 1TB cheap enough these days)
HD5850
Decent 650W PSU such as the Corsair HX series

This rig would probably end up being cheaper than the one you're proposing, perform the same if not better (due to the upgraded GFX card) and be as future proof as the LGA1366, and a damn sight cheaper to boot.

On the case, I bought a Lian Li Lancool PC K62 and its brilliant. Great cable management, excellent cooling, lots of space, completely tool-less and its only around €120.

I have no idea why you wish to upgrade to a 6 core i7-980X. Price / performance is shocking TBH.

What do you wish to do with the computer mainly? That may give us a better understanding of what components would suit best. But I would certainly go with something along the lines of what I recommend.

nozzferrahhtoo · 23-04-2010 3:48pm

I am glad you said that. I was reading this article of slightly HIGHER specced boards here:

http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/x58-motherboard-i7,2252.html

and was starting to feel like maybe I had spent too LITTLE on the MoBo. But it seems to be an average board, specced well, and future proofed against later additions of one or two high end graphics cards. I am happy enough with the decision, happier now that you think it might even be over kill.

nozzferrahhtoo · 23-04-2010 4:16pm

Dublin Gunner,

Some good stuff there. Thanks.

PSU

Ok thanks for that, but I would like to ask more. You just say my one is “poor” and the example you gave is “decent”. Can you elaborate so I do not make the same mistakes again? Are you basing this solely on the spec of 530W v 650W or is there something ELSE you look for in a PSU I should also be careful of?

Graphics

Thanks fort he advice here. I need to put a lot more thought into this component. I guess I just do not want to do it until I can pronounce my GTX285-OC2 dead or not or find out if the manufacturer will replace. It is a lovely little beast, and I would rather not have to replace it.

Case

Are Lian Li and Lancool not different? Anyway I just looked up that case. Seems I can get it from 89 euro here. Nice. Not _sure_ about the see through side panel however. Its got two fans right?

Dublin_Gunner · 23-04-2010 6:17pm

nozzferrahhtoo wrote: »

Dublin Gunner,

Some good stuff there. Thanks.

PSU

Ok thanks for that, but I would like to ask more. You just say my one is “poor” and the example you gave is “decent”. Can you elaborate so I do not make the same mistakes again? Are you basing this solely on the spec of 530W v 650W or is there something ELSE you look for in a PSU I should also be careful of?

Graphics

Thanks fort he advice here. I need to put a lot more thought into this component. I guess I just do not want to do it until I can pronounce my GTX285-OC2 dead or not or find out if the manufacturer will replace. It is a lovely little beast, and I would rather not have to replace it.

Case

Are Lian Li and Lancool not different? Anyway I just looked up that case. Seems I can get it from 89 euro here. Nice. Not _sure_ about the see through side panel however. Its got two fans right?

Chosing a PSU has very little to do with the rated wattage, but a LOT to do with the quality of the manufacturer (who are most likely NOT Corsair or Be Quiet).

Best way to chose a PSU - read reviews. Be Quiet would not be a brand that I would generally recommend, though they do have a few decent models in the Dark Power series. One thing to remember with PSU's though - you generally get what you pay for. So if you skimp, you will most likely get a fairly poor unit. Thats not to say it will blow up after a week, but it may have high ripple, and a higher chance of failure than spending the money on a good quality unit, that will last you for maybe up to 3 PC builds should you wish.

Case - Lancool are a daughter brand of Lian Li. They are their 'budget' cases. They do however include all the high end accessories and niceties that full Lian Li cases have, but the cost saving is usually that they are made from steel, not aluminium.

It has 1 120mm fan at the front, 1 120mm fan at the rear, and 2 140mm fans on the top.

The PSU sits at the bottom of the case, and is clamped in - again, no need for screws. There is ample cable management too -you can route everything behind the mobo tray. It really is an excellent case IMO.

Have you made a decision on the CPU and mainboard? I really think you'll be paying WAY too much for abswolutely no gain whatsoever. That mobo is WAY overpriced, and you'll never use the 'great' features you're paying a premium for.

Do you plan on Tri SLI or Tri-fire at any stage soon???

Solitaire · 23-04-2010 6:33pm

PSU is a pain in the balls, it has little to do with the shiny number on the box and far more to do with original manufacturer (OEM), rail arrangements and 12V power capacity, component quality and other reliability issues. The Be Quiets are usually distinctly mediocre FSP units and while you could get away with a 95W CPU (like LGA1156's i7-860) and a low-ish-power GPU (HD4770/5750/5770) on it once you cross over to the land of OC'd 130W CPUs (like the i7-9*0) and powerful graphics (HD5850, dual HD5770s, or worst of all a single GTX285) the FSP isn't going to cope very well - it would work in theory but be very hot, inefficient and unreliable in practice. It would be a different story with even a good-brand 550W unit (eg. Corsair VX550) but if you OC'd components in that setup you'd even find yourself looking for a good 650W PSU.

Suffice to say if you intend on keeping the oven GTX285 along with a 130W TDP processor (even without overclocking) and multiple 3.5" HDDs you'd really be looking at a 650W unit for best efficiency. There are lots of stellar units out there (Corsair HX650, Antec Signature 650W, various Enermax- and Seasonic-buit units...) but there are cheaper units out there if you don't have the extra cash and don't mind on sacrificing looks and/or modularity before throwing away too much quality or efficiency. Keep an eye out for the Corsair TX650 and Antec EarthWatts 650; both can be had surprisingly cheap in Germany.

Your GTX285 was most likely struck down by nVidia's recent "killer driver" which mucked up the fans and forced GPUs to cook to death :eek: Testbench the card good and hard with the latest drivers outside your current case and monitor how it does - it could be recoverable.

Case is hugely subjective. You claimed to be unworried by bling, but seem to dislike case windows... the regular HAF922 has a side mesh for cooling instead of a window (you can stick fans on it instead). Also look for Antec's revised "silent" cases (P183 and P193) as they have better cooling than the old models while remaining very sleek and quiet. They're just freakin' heavy and pricey instead (especially the P193!)... A cheaper Lian-Li would be a good alternative but they're a fair bit weaker on the cooling front

The Lancools are a bit better that way but AFAIK all the K62s have hoofin' great big case windows and lighting!

The K58 looks similar and is much cheaper, without the window or internal paintjob. Only complaint is that the very longest graphics cards might not fit due to the arrangement of HDD bays

Jonny7 · 23-04-2010 6:51pm

marco_polo wrote: »

*cough* crossfire

oops, yes crossfire - The way it is meant to be said(tm)

nozzferrahhtoo · 26-04-2010 10:35am

Dublin_Gunner wrote: »

Have you made a decision on the CPU and mainboard? I really think you'll be paying WAY too much for abswolutely no gain whatsoever. That mobo is WAY overpriced, and you'll never use the 'great' features you're paying a premium for.

I use this website to compare prices among all resellers near me:

http://geizhals.at/deutschland

Having looked at the i5 and associated boards I am not seeing THAT much of a big saving money wise. A lot are more expensive than the board I am looking at for little gain.

I am only seeing €30 saving on the CPU too between the i7 and i5.

So while I seriously appreciate your input on it, I am not sure if dropping down on the board and CPU is going to gain me all that much, but I am taking on board your PSU advice.

Dublin_Gunner · 26-04-2010 10:38am

You can save a fortune getting a P55 board... I don't know how you're not seeing a saving

nozzferrahhtoo · 26-04-2010 11:12am

Possibly because due to future proofing my build I have been limiting myself to Mobos with USB 3 support only and so the difference between the 1366 and 1156 boards are pretty negligible when you compare them under that criteria.

However if I ignore that one thing then yes, I am seeing some boards for around the €70 - €80 mark.

AlmightyCushion · 27-04-2010 4:22am

nozzferrahhtoo wrote: »

Possibly because due to future proofing my build I have been limiting myself to Mobos with USB 3 support only and so the difference between the 1366 and 1156 boards are pretty negligible when you compare them under that criteria.

However if I ignore that one thing then yes, I am seeing some boards for around the €70 - €80 mark.

Would you not just go with usb 2 for now and wait for cheap usb 3 expansion cards to get realised. What is the price difference between a usb2 and it's usb3 equivalent.

nozzferrahhtoo · 27-04-2010 9:06am

Ranging between 70 and 90 euro.

Yeah I could do that. I just have a personal issue with clutter

I try to deal with it hehehe.

Part of me would just prefer something be on the board itself, rather than clutter everything up with expansion cards later. But thats purely subjective and you're totally right.

Where I am at with a new Build

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