Get me started

garbanzo · 24-08-2008 9:15pm #1

Apols but am new to Boards. I appreciates a decent cup of coffee and struggel with the muck a lot of paces serve. What are the basics in terms of equipment and beans ...and I guess cost .... to get the decent coffee "experience" at home. From experience, the crappy restaurant in Beauvais Airport (France) serves one of the best coffee's I've ever had. Always have one when passing through.
Please help !!

Mr Magnolia · 25-08-2008 7:34am

Welcome to boards. I've moved this into a thread of it's own.

The main thing you need is freshly roasted coffee. A grinder will also mean you're getting the most out of the bean. After that, it's about how you like it. Do you drink espresso or are you mainly looking for filter coffee? Are you based close to a source of fresh beans or will you be ordering online? Do you know what type of coffee they use at Beauvais Airport?

RE*AC*TOR · 25-08-2008 10:25am

In terms of bang for your buck investment wise - the grinder is above all others.

Having gone through a rake of grinders until I got one I was 100% happy with, I can't recommend getting a really good one from the get go enough.

Then as Mr Magnolia said, it depends on whether you are interested in filter type coffee or espresso based coffee. The former is much cheaper to get into, you can either get a mellita filter cone and a gold filter, or a french press, or an aeropress, or a vacpot etc. None of these will cost all that much, and used properly can all make excellent coffee (coupled to that shiny grinder).

If its espresso then it gets quite a bit more expensive. If the budget is really tight (€150-200) you could get away with some of the lower end domestic Gaggias (Cubika, Espresso, Evolution etc). Spend a bit more (€250-350) and you are on to the Gaggia Classic or Gaggia Baby which are the top end domestic Gaggias, there is the Rancilio Silvia also. You can also get some of the domestic Ascaso machines http://www.bluestarcoffeeco.com/domestic.asp?cat=Home%20Machines - apart from aethetics there isn't much to separate the single boiler Ascaso machines.

If you have more money than that to spend there are more interesting options, but it would be unusual for someone buying their first espresso machine to look beyond a single boiler jobby.

NI_Roaster · 25-08-2008 10:38am

Fully agree with Reactor. Always spend money on the grinder first - if budget is limited and you want to go the espresso route spend your money on a good grinder and a cheaper method of brewing as Reactor has described - then you can get a good espresso machine at a later stage. Too often I have seen people do it the other way round and have bought the espresso machine first with the view to add a grinder at a later stage - always with disappointing results

garbanzo · 25-08-2008 9:27pm

You guys obviously know your stuff, a couple of further questions for ye based on what has been posted so far.

I have grinder which i got as a present a year ago. It is a silver jobbo with the brand name PRINCESS on it. It doesn't allow you grind an enormous amount of stuff at a time but if you do it in stages you can get over that limitation. It is probably an "entry level" model, not too pricy. Am I ok using that or (as I imagine will be the case) do i need to spend more money on a better grinder. If so what sort?

I'm really looking to get a decent americano at home. I drink it without milk or sugar. Is the caftiere with the plunger a total waste of time. Really I'm looking for something strong and deep taste-wise and not that shallow muck that seems to pass for coffee in this town. So, is that possible with the caftiere route or do i really have to go more high tech and invest the €200 you lads are suggesting in a proper machine?

Finally beans were mentioned. Are you suggesting I should roast them myself at home or buy them ready roasted? If so can you give me a recommendation of something that would be accessible, living in Dublin.

I would like to get the americano sorted before graduating to espresso.

Sorry for the idiot-type questions but i want to get this right.

Cheers for the help to-date folks, I appreciate your time.

RE*AC*TOR · 25-08-2008 10:17pm

No problem Garbanzo - always happy to help.

By Americano - I take it you mean a long black coffee. Strictly speaking an americano is made with espresso topped up with boiling water.

Other long black coffee made with a cafétiere or filter is broadly called filter or brewed coffee.

If you buy a decent grinder you can master brewed coffee first. Then when / if you decide to go the espresso route it will do that as well. Plunger / Cafétiere / French Press is absolutely not a waste of time. It's a great way to brew coffee providing you don't mind a little bit of sludge in the end of the cup.

Another great method is the Aeropress. Unlike the French Press it doesn't leave any sludge in the cup. It's easy to use, and to clean, and it's cheap. Makes great brewed coffee (it's branded as an espresso maker - but it absolutely is not).

If you can spend around €300 on a grinder you won't need another. If you are going to start off on brewed stuff, I would 100% recommend getting something with stepped adjustment. Eg the Rancilio Rocky, Gaggia MDF, or my personal choice Macap MC4 (fantastic grinder).

As for beans, roasting your own is fun, and can make good coffee, but tbh I would start with getting freshly roasted beans. For brewed coffee I'd suggest either Bewleys on Grafton St, or Ariosa in temple bar market on a Saturday. Ariosa have some stunning single origin stuff.

Square Mile Coffee Roasters have an online shop and they delivery reasonably cheaply to Ireland as well.

I hope this post hasn't provided more questions than answers - and sorry if some of it sounds like gibberish - feel free to ask more qs.

RE*AC*TOR · 25-08-2008 10:27pm

Oh and I meant to say the princess grinder is a whirly blade grinder. These cannot create an even grind, and are fairly poor for coffee.
I know €300 sounds like a lot, but it's money well spent. There are cheaper options, like the Starbucks Barista grinder which is ok. The Iberital MC2 is really only an espresso grinder, but it seems to serve that function well. [although you might get away with the mc2 coupled with an aeropress].

If you give us an idea of your budget we could discuss the options.

Woden · 26-08-2008 5:08pm

I would like to hijack this thread also and say hello with similar queries to the op. I enjoy lurking here and reading about your hardcore coffee antics.

Mostly my coffee experience is just latte's from whereever though recently I have been trying out espresso. I find them ok though it seems to be an acquired taste or perhaps I'm just not having nice ones. About a year ago I picked up one of those bialetti moka pots on recommendation with some lavazza rosso I think it was also on recommendation. I'd use this to make the coffee and then just add microwave milk for a latte. Not sure how recommended this is?

Place I moved into about 4 months ago then had some hybrid assuming poor krups espresso machine/filter coffee machine. I tried to clean it out best I could and picked up some coffee from a local coffee shop who ground it for me there on some gigantic machine which he said he would set up for the krups machine I had.

Mixed results from the machine then I found perhaps it is not in great condition so I was home last weekend and brought my moka pot back with me today and am hoping to use the steam wand on the machine at least. I visited the Bald Barista there on friday based on recommendations here and had a nice lunch and picked up a small amount of the Fixx stuff also (yet to try it will give it a go this evening).

Not really feasible for me to invest into any serious machinery at this point so is there anything else I could be doing now?

Regards

Gran Hermano · 26-08-2008 6:56pm

Woden, if you're drinking lattes you should get decent results with
freshly ground coffee and your moka pot. I'd say better results than
with the Krupps.

You could try an Aeropress as an alternative to the moka pot.
For cheap/easy milk frothing I'd recommend putting warm milk
from the microwave into a French press or use a whisk.

The key is getting freshly ground beans, as already mentioned invest
wisely in a good grinder and it'll do you should you upgrade to an espresso
machine.

Mr Magnolia · 26-08-2008 8:05pm

Welcome along Woden. You won't get better results than you currently are without investment in a grinder once the krupps is frothing the milk ok. The moka pot is as close to espresso as you're going to get without shelling out hundreds for machinery.

The aeropress is a great peice of kit at a good price but I reckon the moka pot produces results closer to an espresso type drink.

What did you think of the latte in the Bald Barista?

SeaSide · 26-08-2008 8:28pm

Lads,

I think that some of these suggestions will do nothing but put people off. I survived for decades on a French press and supermarket ground coffee and I would say that this is the place to start your journey. (ok maybe try to skip the supermarket coffee and pick up some freshly ground stuff every couple of days)

My list would be as follows:
First €50 -- Good French press or filter and kettle.
Next €50 -- Basic grinder
Next €100 -- Gaggia MM (which is what I was using until I got the SuperJolly)
Next €500 -- Good home espresso machine (Gaggia Classic, Rancilio Silvia etc)
Next €200 -- i-roast2 home roaster
Next € -- Expensive grinder

and you can keep going forever improving your collection if you have the money

Always the freshness of the roast is critical but until you hone your taste you won't really need a lot of expensive equipment. I would prefer a well made cup from filter than some of the crap produced by our most famous coffee emporium.

RE*AC*TOR · 26-08-2008 8:54pm

Why buy something that will become redundant quite quickly?
I had a whirly blade, and I had a Krups GVX2 grinder. If I had to do it over again I wouldn't have wasted money on them as they're just not up to the job.

Supermarket / preground beans might be ok to "survive", but I hope we're aiming for more than survivng. You could survive on water.

My order would be:

1. Good grinder (€150-€350). [Iberital MC2 / Ascaso I2 / Gaggia MDF / Rancilio Rocky / Macap MC4]
2. French Press / Filter Cone / Vac Pot / Aeropress (€20-€70).
3. Single Boiler Espresso Machine (€250-€450). [Classic / Baby / Silvia]
4. HX Espresso Machine (€600-€1500). [Isomac Zaffiro / Expobar Pulsar / Izzo Vivi]
5. Dual Boiler Espresso Machine (€1500-€2200). [Izzo Alex Duetto / La Spaziale Vivaldi / Dalla Corte Mini]
6. Clover (€10,000).

garbanzo · 26-08-2008 9:16pm

Great advice folks. Will be paid later this week and I'll probably start with a trip into Bewleys for their fresh roasted beans and see how I get on. It's funny that smell of roasting beans always reminds me of being "in town" when i was a kid.

I will let you know how i get on with your advice however, I think my budget will lean me in the more modest direction suggested earlier in the thread by Seaside. RE*CT*R thanks for the education on how you make an americano. Every day's a school day eh !

Talk anon

SeaSide · 27-08-2008 8:04am

RE*AC*TOR wrote: »

If I had to do it over again I wouldn't have wasted money on them as they're just not up to the job.

Supermarket / preground beans might be ok to "survive", but I hope we're aiming for more than survivng. You could survive on water.

I don't think that I would disagree with you but this is a journey and I would rather that someone starts on the path and is not put off by the cost of entry.

In the end the more people get to know what good coffee is the better for me and you

eclectichoney · 27-08-2008 11:32am

I have to say the one thing that I have found has made the single biggest difference to the quality of my coffee (and I'm talking at a very basic french press level) is a semi-decent grinder. The difference in freshness is *unreal* so to be honest I think if I only had a limited budget I would put it all into a grinder at first (well maybe not a Rocky but certainly one of the few really good sub €200 grinders that seem to be out there). You can pick up a french press in TK maxx for a tenner or so so that's not really an issue tbh.

Grinders ftw people!

NI_Roaster · 27-08-2008 12:45pm

eclectichoney wrote: »

I have to say the one thing that I have found has made the single biggest difference to the quality of my coffee (and I'm talking at a very basic french press level) is a semi-decent grinder. The difference in freshness is *unreal* so to be honest I think if I only had a limited budget I would put it all into a grinder at first (well maybe not a Rocky but certainly one of the few really good sub €200 grinders that seem to be out there). You can pick up a french press in TK maxx for a tenner or so so that's not really an issue tbh.

Grinders ftw people!

Could not agree more!! This post just says it all...

RE*AC*TOR · 27-08-2008 1:25pm

SeaSide wrote: »

I don't think that I would disagree with you but this is a journey and I would rather that someone starts on the path and is not put off by the cost of entry.

In the end the more people get to know what good coffee is the better for me and you

I know what you mean. I'd just hope someone could benefit from the mistakes you and I have made, and in the end not waste money on sub-par machinery.

With preground coffee it will go stale within hours. All the nuances and delicate aromatic flavours will be gone.

With poorly ground coffee some of the coffee will be overextracted (bitter), some will be under extracted (weak), some will be correctly extracted.

This will cause frustration, may be incorrectly blamed on technique, the beans etc.

The idea should be to get people up and running with making the best possible coffee from the off. Maybe people need to make these mistakes. It is a lot of money in fairness. Maybe incremental improvements is the way it has to be done, no zero to sixty. In the end I feel though that while it may seem like the financially sensible thing to make smaller investments initially, if you do follow the path, and keep wanting to get the absolute best from the beans, it will be money wasted.

/rant

I can't blame anyone for making these choices - I was that soldier.

Sparks · 27-08-2008 1:47pm

RE*AC*TOR wrote: »

Why buy something that will become redundant quite quickly?

Because €300 is a lot to pay for that first cup of coffee, and while blade grinders are never as good as the burr grinders, they're still better than nescafe, and when you move up to a burr grinder, blade grinders are still fantastically useful for grinding whole spices in the kitchen?

Sparks · 27-08-2008 1:49pm

Speaking of basic beginners kit

, how do people rate those little wood-and-brass hand grinders?

RE*AC*TOR · 27-08-2008 1:56pm

Maybe so, if you grind a lot of whole spices...

Price of everything / value of nothing.

There are bargains to be had. Ebay can be good for picking up 2nd hand grinders. The Starbucks Barista grinder @€;120 (i think) is supposed to be ok, the Bodum Antigua from Java Republic @€;60 is supposed to be ok, the Ibertical MC2 @€;150ish creates a very good quality of grind although I have personal issue with the adjustment practicalities. Some of the Zassenhaus hand grinders are supposed to be very good, although somewhat labour intensive.

I realise I sound like a bit of an elitist snob, but my only intention is to get people tasting how good coffee can be, to take 3 steps forward instead of 1.

Gran Hermano · 27-08-2008 2:12pm

You really don't want to grind coffee for a moka pot or espresso machine
on one of those hand grinders - whilst you'll get an ok grind it'll take a
lot of grinding - I know I tried in the past! For a French press it'll take
less grinding as you'll need a coarser grind so it's less labour.

Unless you're constantly changing from French press to espresso grind
the MC2 is perfect for it's price. If you constantly make coffee by one
method, be it a €10 Bodum pot or a €500+ espresso machine it'll
do the job.

I agree with REACTOR, if you buy cheap you'll buy twice (or three or four times)
with coffee equipment. I understand how some might see it as if
we're pushing the more 'expensive' side of coffee makings but it's really
a case of not wasting cash at the initial stages.

Mr Magnolia · 27-08-2008 2:20pm

If I had it to do again my first purchase would be a grinder coupled with a moka pot. The moka pot could be used for an espresso or an americano type drink. The Iberital MC2 and a 3/5-cup moka pot will cost less than €180.

There are various ways to get started though..

Up to €50 - Whir-blade grinder from ebay & French press or maybe a pour-over jobbie.

€50 - €100 - Maybe a Bodum Antigua as RE*ACT*OR suggests and an Aeropress as Gran Hermano recommended. The aeropress makes a great filter coffee, it's about €30 on it's own.

€100 - €200 Pick you're grinder now and save for your espresso machine. Use your grinder with a moka pot here maybe to get your value out of it without the more expensive espresso machine. Consider you can pay more for the top end grinders if you wish.

€200 - €700 You have your grinder from the last spend. Now it's the espresso machine. Depends what money you're willing to spend here. €350 will get you the Gaggia Classic, more for the Rancilio Silvia or more again for the Nuova Simonelli Oscar.

Hope that's semi-coherent.

Sparks · 27-08-2008 2:25pm

RE*AC*TOR wrote: »

Maybe so, if you grind a lot of whole spices...

You do eat every day, right?

Seriously, you grind spices every day (same as with coffee, you do not grind a kilo at a time, you grind as you need them), and while a mortar and pestle is grand for small quantities, a blade grinder really is the schnizz.

Price of everything / value of nothing.

Story of everything in every walk of life where folks who're passionate about something meet folks who aren't - but €300 for a burr grinder on the cusp of a recession is just not going to be the first piece of kit anyone buys.

Some of the Zassenhaus hand grinders are supposed to be very good, although somewhat labour intensive.

Yeah, but for $80 new and down to $7 on ebay, I'd be happy to put in a bit of elbow grease

Any recommendations as to specific models?

I realise I sound like a bit of an elitist snob, but my only intention is to get people tasting how good coffee can be, to take 3 steps forward instead of 1.

Screw apologising, you're offering advice not twisting arms. Stick to your principles!

Sparks · 27-08-2008 2:28pm

Gran Hermano wrote: »

You really don't want to grind coffee for a moka pot or espresso machine on one of those hand grinders - whilst you'll get an ok grind it'll take a lot of grinding - I know I tried in the past! For a French press it'll take less grinding as you'll need a coarser grind so it's less labour.

Yeah, but unless it's sunday morning, I don't make a full pot at home, I tend to use one of these:

The hand grinder seems perfect for this - how long can it take to grind down to a tablespoon or two of grounds?

RE*AC*TOR · 27-08-2008 2:32pm

I haven't used any hand grinders, but from my reading the ones made by Zassenhaus seem to be the best, other ones can be flakey, and more ornamental. I'd doubt you'd get a Zassenahus for €7, but if you do let me know and I'd buy one myself. I like the look of the knee mill ones.

It's not a matter of principles, I've gone through the process and come out the other side. I may not have listened to such advice had I been given it when I was starting out. It is all too easy for someone like me to tell someone why they need these things - but maybe it's only through learning the flaws of the cheaper stuff that you appreciate the benefit of the better stuff.

eclectichoney · 27-08-2008 3:30pm

NI_Roaster wrote: »

Could not agree more!! This post just says it all...

What can I say, the boys have thought me well

Khannie · 27-08-2008 6:38pm

Gran Hermano wrote: »

I understand how some might see it as if
we're pushing the more 'expensive' side of coffee makings but it's really
a case of not wasting cash at the initial stages.

You're both assuming that someone will get enough use / flavour differentiation out of the equipment to justify the cost and that they'll bother their hole actually using it. A lot of people buy a lot of expensive stuff (not just coffee gear) that sits around their house gathering dust after 6 months.

I made two coffee related purchases which will require upgrading (or have been):

1) whirly blade grinder
2) popcorn popper for home roasting

I think the whirly blade grinder was 20 quid well spent. I _still_ use it, despite having a beauty of a mazzer. The popcorn popper was unquestionably worth the 12 euro it set me back. In both cases I think diving in with more expensive kit would have been foolish given how cheap they were.

JIZZLORD · 27-08-2008 10:19pm

in regards to diy lattes, get a wee frother yoke yoke. i got one for free with a bodum french press a year ago and it does a good job of frothing microwaved milk.

Money makes me stay with the combination of bodum and bialetti brewing. when i'm in galway i generally get freshly roasted ground coffee from the roasters in town and this summer ive found myself drinking more tea as i have no access to fress coffee in sligo

Woden · 29-08-2008 8:33am

Thanks for the replies guys. Didn't have much free time over the last few days so just got to try out the moka pot once since. Gonna try pick up one of those mini frothers like above.

@ Mr. Magnolia. I enjoyed the latte in the bald barista though I enjoy the late from my local coffeeshop as well I think half the issue I have is distinguishing good, decent or bad (other then the minging stuff say from the machine in work!)

rockbeer · 31-08-2008 2:49pm

RE*AC*TOR wrote: »

With preground coffee it will go stale within hours.

Quicker...

I can start to taste the difference in about 15 minutes. Someone asked recently in another thread why coffee you get out and about is so often bitter. Top reasons in my view are stale beans, over-extraction, and old grounds that have been sitting around in a doser for longer than they should i.e. longer than about five minutes max.

If I had to give one explanation why people like the espressos I serve up on the market so much it would be because I use a doserless grinder - grinding every shot to order makes all the difference in the world.

Khannie · 01-09-2008 9:55pm

rockbeer wrote: »

I can start to taste the difference in about 15 minutes.

I'm gonna pepsi challenge you on that one of these days.

garbanzo · 06-09-2008 8:27pm

I'm like St Paul on the road to Damascus here. I took the advice from various people and bought the freshly roasted beans in Bewleys. Ground them at home and a very, very good cup of strong black coffee was produced. Damn good. Damn good.

Thanks to all for the advice. I am going to try put a few bob by to get a better grinder as various contributors have said that is the key to going to the next level in terms taste.

Mr Magnolia · 09-09-2008 11:23am

Glad to hear you enjoyed it. Did you go for a French Press in the end?

SeaSide · 09-09-2008 12:22pm

i volunteer garbanzo to write the 'get me started' sticky

nc6000 · 09-09-2008 1:44pm

What grinder did you get? I'm thinking of getting one myself after reading this thread.

garbanzo · 09-09-2008 9:23pm

Mr Magnolia, we have this glass BODUM jobbo in the house which you put the coffee into, add the water and press down a metallic circular filter to push the granules dwon to the bottom. Is that what you call a French Press??

Seaside (thanks for yoru advice earlier by the way) I'm not sure what sort of honour you are conveying on me to write the "get me started sticky". Am new-ish to Boards and amn't full sure of etiquette.

Mr Magnolia · 10-09-2008 7:17am

garbanzo wrote: »

Mr Magnolia, we have this glass BODUM jobbo in the house which you put the coffee into, add the water and press down a metallic circular filter to push the granules dwon to the bottom. Is that what you call a French Press??

Yes, sounds like it. You'll see it called a French Press or Cafetiere, they're both the same thing.

Seaside (thanks for yoru advice earlier by the way) I'm not sure what sort of honour you are conveying on me to write the "get me started sticky". Am new-ish to Boards and amn't full sure of etiquette.

No probs. A sticky is a useful thread that a mod 'sticks' to the top of each forum. In Coffee & Tea there are a four stickys, a charter, the MCD Discussion warning, online coffee resources and the bricks & morter thread. Seaside was suggesting you do one on getting started in the world of good coffee, he was semi in-jest so don't worry.

I had actually started a thread about the basics of good coffee making, it was getting to in-depth and too long though.

Sparks · 30-01-2010 10:08pm

RE*AC*TOR wrote: »

There are bargains to be had. Ebay can be good for picking up 2nd hand grinders. The Starbucks Barista grinder @€;120 (i think) is supposed to be ok, the Bodum Antigua from Java Republic @€;60 is supposed to be ok, the Ibertical MC2 @€;150ish creates a very good quality of grind although I have personal issue with the adjustment practicalities. Some of the Zassenhaus hand grinders are supposed to be very good, although somewhat labour intensive.

I realise I sound like a bit of an elitist snob, but my only intention is to get people tasting how good coffee can be, to take 3 steps forward instead of 1.

Okay, I know I'm resurrecting here, but fair's fair. I got the Bodum Antigua (€80 by the time I got it) and Reactor was right, the difference really is very substantial. The coffee has far more body in the cup, the taste is quite superior, and the consistent size means you're not picking dust out of your teeth in the last mouthful of coffee in the morning. Doesn't work so well when you make a single mug of coffee though, but I think that's more because my cafietere mugs are old and in need of replacement filters. And the way the grains fizz up if you don't use a half-cup of hot water to make a slurry and hydrate them first can catch you off-guard the first time, but that's what paper towels, sponges and waterproof countertops are for, right?

Still have my blade grinder though. It really is the absolute business for grinding whole spices...

Get me started

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