Raffle off an Apartment!!

pagekarl · 30-07-2008 9:07pm #1

Hi im doin some research at the minute in relation to raffling off my apartment and am wondering how much interest there would be in buying a ticket -

The Raffle - The raffle will consist of tickets being sold on EBAY where a buyer purchases a ticket number betweeen 1 and "the final number of tickets to be sold, lets say 50,000 for arguments sake". Each ticket will be €5-10 each. The raffle itself will have legal documents drawn up by my own solicitor and all terms and conditions will be attached to the ebay purchase. The raffle will be held by a official adjudicator on line and a date will be attached to ebay for the raffle to take place so people can log on and watch the winning ticket being pulled.

The rules - It is my intention that a min number of tickets will need to be sold for the raffle to go ahead (again this will be mentioned on ebay). I these tickets are not sold then all moneys will be refunded via paypal.

Profit - It is not my intention to make profits on this raffle however advertising, tax, gaming licence costs etc will need to be covered within the number of tickets sold. The number of tickets been sold will be decided on ebay agreement therefore the buyer knows their odds will not vary i.e odds of 1 in 50k and not 1 in infinity.

Reason - :mad:Recession:mad: and dont want to sell apartment at a loss which in the current market is more than likely:mad:.

The Prize - The :Dwinner:D will be pulled out on the date mentioned on the ebay purchase. That person will then be handed over the deeds to a 1bedroom luxury apartment in a highly sought after location in dublin. That person will be mortgage free. That person will have spent no more than the charge of purchasing the ebay ticket.

Sound like somenthing you would be interested in?

The more positive responses I get the more chance this raffle has of taking place.

Cheers

:eek:

beertons · 30-07-2008 9:09pm

What's the apt like? Where is it?

pagekarl · 30-07-2008 9:20pm

"1bedroom luxury apartment in a highly sought after location in dublin"

Heisenberg. · 30-07-2008 9:21pm

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jetski · 30-07-2008 9:24pm

Id buy a ticket or ten

Kavinsky · 30-07-2008 9:28pm

I might buy a ticket if I knew the value of the apartment. Also you would need to generate a serious amount of publicity to offset the cost of raffle tickets with the apartment.

Trump · 30-07-2008 9:29pm

Reason -

Recession

and dont want to sell apartment at a loss which in the current market is more than likely

.

Based on the reason you have provided above for considering such a competition.

Quite simple really: Wait until the recession is over and market recovers then sell your apartment.

harlem · 30-07-2008 9:30pm

I think its a gr8 idea, a couple in the UK are doing the same with their house <http://www.winadevonpropertywithfishing.co.uk/index.php>, I've bought my ticket already

imagine for the sake of a £25 entry being able to win a £1million property? I think its a genius marketing idea.

pagekarl · 30-07-2008 9:36pm

Kavinsky - I woul only need to sell between 50k-100k of tickets depending on cost of tickets and cost of excercise.
And I dont wanna wait till after recession before selling as I want a house -legitimate reason.

Kavinsky wrote: »

I might buy a ticket if I knew the value of the apartment. Also you would need to generate a serious amount of publicity to offset the cost of raffle tickets with the apartment.

wheelscarlow · 30-07-2008 10:24pm

I would be interested at that price in 1 or 10:D:D

Epic Tissue · 30-07-2008 10:37pm

I'd buy a few tickets

Senna · 30-07-2008 10:38pm

Sorry mate it wont work (be allowed), i've heard for people doing this before, a fella tried to raffle off his house, it was in the papers but it was completely illegal and he was fined and had to pay everyone back. Raffles are allow and are authorized by the garda sup'er on a case by case basis, he'll never allow this, if it was for GAA, society or charity, thats a different story.

Have you read this http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1956/en/act/pub/0002/index.html, A raffle comes under the GAMING AND LOTTERIES ACT, 1956.

Secondly, ebay do not allow raffles, unless for charity.

Darragh29 · 31-07-2008 1:14am

pagekarl wrote: »

"1bedroom luxury apartment in a highly sought after location in dublin"

Hmmm, what's the problem with just saying where the property is located??? Maybe you haven't noticed yet, but nowhere in Dublin is "highly sought after" at the moment, hence why property valuations are down approximately 10%-15% across the board. If it was "highly sought after", in all reality would you be on here trying to offload it in this manner??? :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

Patrickof · 31-07-2008 8:51am

I'm afraid that Senna is quite correct. You're not the first to think of it and it is, unfortunately, illegal.

travellerI · 31-07-2008 9:01am

Regardless of the legaility or otherwise of this idea, isn't it a scary prospect that properties which you may have had to queue up overnight to purchase in late 2005 early 2006 are now being raffled on E-Bay.

punchestown · 31-07-2008 9:24am

Senna wrote: »

Sorry mate it wont work (be allowed), i've heard for people doing this before, a fella tried to raffle off his house, it was in the papers but it was completely illegal and he was fined and had to pay everyone back. Raffles are allow and are authorized by the garda sup'er on a case by case basis, he'll never allow this, if it was for GAA, society or charity, thats a different story.

Have you read this http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1956/en/act/pub/0002/index.html, A raffle comes under the GAMING AND LOTTERIES ACT, 1956.

Secondly, ebay do not allow raffles, unless for charity.

Barney Curley
1984
Middleton House
Private Limited Subscribers Draw 9,000 tickets @ £200 Irish punts each
Originally found guilty of running an illegal lottery
Sentenced squashed on appeal by way of defendant paying charitable donation.

ShooterSF · 31-07-2008 10:00am

Has that law seriously not been updated since (goes on about sixpence and ten pence etc.) bit antiquated.
What about all those pub raffles and school raffles? How do they get their licenses for them?

Darragh29 · 31-07-2008 10:12am

ShooterSF wrote: »

Has that law seriously not been updated since (goes on about sixpence and ten pence etc.) bit antiquated.
What about all those pub raffles and school raffles? How do they get their licenses for them?

Whatever about the legality of the what the poster is trying to do, the idea in itself is completely wooden headed. Sounds like a complete chancer, if a property is located in a "highly sought after" area, what the hell is he doing on here researching a raffle to get rid of it!?!?!

Heisenberg. · 31-07-2008 10:34am

This post has been deleted.

PopeBuckfastXVI · 31-07-2008 10:52am

pagekarl wrote: »

Profit - It is not my intention to make profits on this raffle however advertising, tax, gaming licence costs etc will need to be covered within the number of tickets sold. The number of tickets been sold will be decided on ebay agreement therefore the buyer knows their odds will not vary i.e odds of 1 in 50k and not 1 in infinity.

Actually it is your intention to make profit... it's your intention to take in more money than the open market value of the item being raffled, anything over and above the open market value is profit to you.

Given this I don't know why you wouldn't go all out and try to make even more than that, nothing wrong with making profit.

As other said though, it's not legal... if it was you might get away with it being the first, but there's a very limited amount of times this can be done. Once, maybe twice.

I wouldn't bother with it personally though... the odd's are crap and the payoff isn't all that great.

Best of luck with your sale through conventional means though, you might just have to take a hit... investments may fall as well as rise, past performance is not an indicator of future performance etc. etc.

jackal · 31-07-2008 11:52am

Trump wrote: »

Reason - Recession and dont want to sell apartment at a loss which in the current market is more than likely.

Based on the reason you have provided above for considering such a competition.

Quite simple really: Wait until the recession is over and market recovers then sell your apartment.

Quality suggestion there trump. :pac: Unless there is another property bubble right after this one finishes popping, then you are highly unlikely to see the "market recover" to anything close to prices in 2006. Property will of course recover, but by the time we see a 1 bed apartment for 450k again, the average wage might be 100k. Good luck sitting it out.

punchestown · 31-07-2008 12:01pm

ShooterSF wrote: »

Has that law seriously not been updated since (goes on about sixpence and ten pence etc.) bit antiquated.
What about all those pub raffles and school raffles? How do they get their licenses for them?

Usually Chief Superintendant in District will give authorisation for such but purely where there is a charital benefactor not a private individual chancing his arm.

ShooterSF · 31-07-2008 12:02pm

I was thinking about this as I've seen plenty of things raffled off even on those tv shows where you text in to enter. Unfortunately for my noggin I won't be able to forget about it till I test all avenues

Ok I remember before people being asked why they ask the stupid questions like who makes the playstation, apple sony or nintendo, when it's already mentioned in the raffle (to win a sony playstation simply answer the question below...) and they said it had to do with the legalities of holding the draw.

The following is theory based on the above.. so maybe if there's a question it's now considered a competition with a prize rather than a raffle and falls under new laws. Theres definitely precedence for having such "raffles". I can't see the difference between raffling a playstation vs a house under the lotteries act as the only difference is value and from what I can see the lotteries act only differenciates (sp?) on prizes greater than £50 (it was 1956) and both would be, so legally should be considered under the same rules...

Any ideas?

ShooterSF · 31-07-2008 12:04pm

punchestown wrote: »

Usually Chief Superintendant in District will give authorisation for such but purely where there is a charital benefactor not a private individual chancing his arm.

Most pubs I know pocket the taking for draws (well anyone's I've worked in) .... eh though if that was done illegally the above was a hypothetical comment ....

dushflan · 31-07-2008 1:34pm

I think its a gr8 idea, a couple in the UK are doing the same with their house <http://www.winadevonpropertywithfishing.co.uk/index.php>, I've bought my ticket already imagine for the sake of a £25 entry being able to win a £1million property? I think its a genius marketing idea.

Can you tell me what the answer to the question is for this raffle?? I wonder how they can get away with it when its illegal here in Ireland??

ShooterSF · 31-07-2008 1:41pm

Noticed they have a question on their's too...hmmm me thinks this is where the loop hole is my friend...

dushflan · 31-07-2008 1:54pm

You don't know the answer do you??

Q. What is the cost of an adult full season coarse fishing licence for 2008/2009?

ShooterSF · 31-07-2008 2:09pm

dushflan wrote: »

You don't know the answer do you??

Q. What is the cost of an adult full season coarse fishing licence for 2008/2009?

Google is your friend. (Hint: it's same price as a ticket for the draw)

dushflan · 31-07-2008 2:31pm

Thanks very much

pagekarl · 01-08-2008 7:44am

Me thinks there is a loophole alright! Rephrase the first from "Raffle" to "Competition"....

Il investigate and post later

dushflan · 01-08-2008 8:48am

I e-mailed that crowd to see why it wasn't illegal there and they said the following:

"Thank you for your interest in our competiition.
A raffle for a prize this size would be illegal in this country too, that is
why it is a skill based competition. The question we have asked is such
that not everyone would know the answer, that indicates a level of skill
required."

statss · 01-08-2008 10:18am

i'd defo buy a ticket or two.

ShooterSF · 01-08-2008 2:25pm

dushflan wrote: »

I e-mailed that crowd to see why it wasn't illegal there and they said the following:

"Thank you for your interest in our competiition.
A raffle for a prize this size would be illegal in this country too, that is
why it is a skill based competition. The question we have asked is such
that not everyone would know the answer, that indicates a level of skill
required."

Cool. Nice one. Knew there was a reason for the question.

pagekarl · 01-08-2008 3:46pm

As burns would say....Exxxxxceeeeellllent!

Had looked into that english comp and thats what gave me the idea, mite see how they get on 1st though....

As for those who asked why i just wouldn wait for recession to end? Well i did say i didnt wanna live in an apartment nomore. Der is an advantage of a recession also (man i cant believe i said dat) and dats dat u can get a real nice house cheap....

As for making a profit...well i will look into it but was told that you cant make a profit but could cover your costs..... Defo a profit ot be made but ya gotta keep ppl interested so ticket numbers need to be as low as possible.....

One reply said that ebay wont allow anybody sell raffle tickets.... dat true? Is there any law against sellin competition tickets on it?

Also i think giving money to charity would also keep the fuzz off my back...ha kiddin!

So its a positive reply so far.....not the 50k ppl i was hopin for so keep them coming.....

Cheers

PhiliousPhogg · 01-08-2008 4:15pm

How much did you pay for the apartment?

Let's say €500,000. That means you have to sell 50,000 tickets over the internet. I seriously doubt you are going to find that many punters who are interested in ownership of an apartment in Dublin. I would say you'll do well to sell more than 1,000 to be honest. How do you think you are going to market this?

If this isn't illegal, it should be. It's too susceptible to abuse. Take the Fr Ted example where they rigged their own raffle. People will do it if they can get away with it.

Andrea B. · 01-08-2008 4:16pm

From their T&C;

Closing the competition
# If the Maximum Number of Entries to the Competition is not equal to the number of entries received as at the closing date, the Competition will close and the proceeds of the Competition will be determined using the formula “number of tickets sold x ticket price” (“the Entry Fees”);
# The Winner of the Competition will then be determined in accordance with the method described in clause 35 above;
# The Promoters will be entitled to retain 35% of the Entry Fees to cover administration and marketing expenditure. The remaining balance following deduction of the 35% is “the Prize Fund”. The Prize Fund will then be distributed to the winning Entrant;

Technically, they could pocket the guts of £300k without even selling the place.

harlem · 01-08-2008 6:17pm

I'd certainly be interested if I thought I could buy a ticket for say a tenner and get an apartment worth €100k or so.

With the case of that UK house being raffled, I read about it on the Sky news website, I'd imagine a few of the tabloids over here would run an article on it, even for the sake of its novelty factor.

If you used the same T&C as the UK comp. too its win/win, as even if you don't sell all the tickets, the prizewinner could win a cash prize instead and hopefully you'd make a few quid to go towards your new house.
Best of luck with it, I reckon its worth a try

ShooterSF · 01-08-2008 6:37pm

PhiliousPhogg wrote: »

How much did you pay for the apartment?

Let's say €500,000. That means you have to sell 50,000 tickets over the internet. I seriously doubt you are going to find that many punters who are interested in ownership of an apartment in Dublin. I would say you'll do well to sell more than 1,000 to be honest. How do you think you are going to market this?

If this isn't illegal, it should be. It's too susceptible to abuse. Take the Fr Ted example where they rigged their own raffle. People will do it if they can get away with it.

It think he said 200,000, even at €20 a ticket that's 10,000 which is pretty do-able.
Should we stop anyone from holding raffles/competitions so as they're all susceptible to the "upside down 11" trick? Obviously it makes sense to make it so that friends and family cant enter. Find a neutral (maybe even C celebrity to adjudicate a draw)
Do you own prizebonds or even do the lottery? Surely these too COULD be fixed. If not then he simply has to put in the same secure measures in place to put peoples fears at rest.
You can be sure if it was fixed and anyone knew the link between the owner and winner that they'd also be happy to pick up a nice cheque from a tabloid for the story!

bren2002 · 02-08-2008 2:00pm

Also don't forget that PayPal takes a cut. If you intend on refunding entrants if you don't make the cutoff number then on the scale of cash you're talking about it could cost you 1,000's, maybe even 10,000's..

The best of luck with this, I'd need to know where it was before entering. Don't forget that who ever wins this will have to take on the hassle of management companies, renting it out (presumably). How much and how easy it is to rent will be dictated by this.

Also, I'm pretty certain the winner would have to pay stamp duty - could cost the winner a lot more than €20. Think €25,020!

pagekarl · 02-08-2008 5:53pm

bren2002 wrote: »

Also don't forget that PayPal takes a cut. If you intend on refunding entrants if you don't make the cutoff number then on the scale of cash you're talking about it could cost you 1,000's, maybe even 10,000's..

The best of luck with this, I'd need to know where it was before entering. Don't forget that who ever wins this will have to take on the hassle of management companies, renting it out (presumably). How much and how easy it is to rent will be dictated by this.

Also, I'm pretty certain the winner would have to pay stamp duty - could cost the winner a lot more than €20. Think €25,020!

Out of all the replies i think this one is the most ridiculous comment. OMG you are worried about magenement fees and renting t out etc..... Good je$us man you just won a mortgage free apartment.... For €10 max! Even if this was the only worry...Its not a worry...If you rent out the apt in this area you will get 1100 min a month....The Management fees are 900 a yr....Do the maths Scroooge....Ha You must live at home with your folks or summit .......

For all the other replies.....I paid in the region of €300k for the apartment and its not one of those section 23 or whatever their called... well looked after apartment and again the winner gets an apartment for €10...No mortgage...Bit of dealing with Solicitors maybe......BUT MORTGAGE FREE......

As for the possibility of a friend winning the apartment...Ofcourse friends can buy tickets BUT the Competition would be 100% legally runnd yes a independant adjudicator would run it....

As for advertising...There will be pictures of apartment and location etc on the net before enterin comp so everyone wud no DEN what they wudbe getting....I saw an article in the metro for a spanish property that was doing the same thing..... Gave me the idea..... people talk and Id imagine id have to take a few adds out in paper or summit but all those costs wud be covered as is in the same one in engad winthrop i think....

Sounds Fairer???????

Andrea B. · 02-08-2008 6:37pm

Out of all the replies i think this one is the most ridiculous comment. OMG you are worried about magenement fees and renting t out etc..... Good je$us man you just won a mortgage free apartment.... For €10 max! Even if this was the only worry...Its not a worry...If you rent out the apt in this area you will get 1100 min a month....The Management fees are 900 a yr....Do the maths Scroooge....Ha You must live at home with your folks or summit .......

When doing up the business plan, do make sure to factor in the cost of somebody writing your press-releases.

bren2002 · 03-08-2008 11:40am

pagekarl wrote: »

Out of all the replies i think this one is the most ridiculous comment. OMG you are worried about magenement fees and renting t out etc..... Good je$us man you just won a mortgage free apartment.... For €10 max! Even if this was the only worry...Its not a worry...If you rent out the apt in this area you will get 1100 min a month....The Management fees are 900 a yr....Do the maths Scroooge....Ha You must live at home with your folks or summit .......

For all the other replies.....I paid in the region of €300k for the apartment and its not one of those section 23 or whatever their called... well looked after apartment and again the winner gets an apartment for €10...No mortgage...Bit of dealing with Solicitors maybe......BUT MORTGAGE FREE......

As for the possibility of a friend winning the apartment...Ofcourse friends can buy tickets BUT the Competition would be 100% legally runnd yes a independant adjudicator would run it....

As for advertising...There will be pictures of apartment and location etc on the net before enterin comp so everyone wud no DEN what they wudbe getting....I saw an article in the metro for a spanish property that was doing the same thing..... Gave me the idea..... people talk and Id imagine id have to take a few adds out in paper or summit but all those costs wud be covered as is in the same one in engad winthrop i think....

Sounds Fairer???????

Personal insults do nothing for your case.

First off, when you're writing the advertising copy etc. for this venture, get someone else to do it. Your spelling and grammar are appalling.

Second; the 'winner' will not be getting an apartment for €10, assuming the 'winner' is not a first time buyer the stamp duty on €300,000 is €12,250. Add conveyance, surveyors report (I don't care if it's 'free', I wouldn't want if it got a poor report as it could cost a fortune to put right) and other professional fess, replacement furniture (I assume you'll be taking that with you) the 'winner' has just won the opportunity to spend over €16,000.

Rent 12,100
Stamp Duty -12,250
Management Fess -900
Furniture etc. -15,000

Total -16,050

Granted the income in years 2 & 3 will offset this, but it'll be 3 years before the 'winner' sees any profit from this. Costing them considerably more than a tenner. So don't mislead people people that it's only a tenner.

Currently you believe the apartment would generate a rent of €1,100 per month with a management fee of €900 per year. Both of these figures are liable for change, rents are falling and management fees only ever go up.

If the 'winner' chose to sell straight away, given the current state of the property market and the fact that banks won't touch apartments at more than 80% LTV, accepting an offer of €225,000 the 'winner' would also have to pay substantial capital gains tax.

I am simply pointing out to you that not everyone would see this as a great deal. Don't get me wrong, I did say the best of luck with this, it is a good deal. Just not a great deal.

harlem · 03-08-2008 7:37pm

What if this raffle was run exactly like the one in the UK, here's a section from their raffle FAQ...

Q. What does the winner have to pay for?

A. Just the competition entry and the cost of getting here. We are paying the stamp duty and conveyancing costs etc. All the bills relating to the house will be paid before we leave.

If it was done like that whereby the person the raffle wins the apartment with all the legal/tax fee's paid, then it'd be a viable option?

bren2002 · 04-08-2008 9:31am

I've no problem with the above suggestion. It addresses the point that I was making. The OP will now have to comment on this.

Heisenberg. · 04-08-2008 9:41am

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allybhoy · 04-08-2008 9:52am

Lads ffs, give the op a break. Moaning about paying management fee's,stamp duty etc is ridiculous. If you wanted the OP to pay all these then he would have to sell more tkts, more tkts = less chance of winning. If you dont like it, dont enter, simple as. Dont be pissing on his parade just because he is thinking of a novel way of selling his apartment.

bren2002 wrote: »

it is a good deal. Just not a great deal.

This lad is so deluded from reality that its not even funny.

bren2002 wrote: »

Furniture etc. -15,000

15grand on furniture for a 1bedroom apt that you are going to rent out?? Are you insane?

Trinity · 04-08-2008 10:04am

I would gladly pay fees and costs. I have 2 kids, no hope of getting a mortgage, no hope of getting a council place, have spent well over 60K on rent over the last few years, currently 1300 pm

To live mortgage/rent free would be a dream come true - to the ones complaining about the fees, do you already own your own home?

Unfortunately a one bed apartment would be no good to me long term space wise for 3 of us, however i would still buy a ticket as it would put me on the property ladder which otherwise i would have no hope of getting on for a few years!

bren2002 · 04-08-2008 11:50am

allybhoy wrote: »

This lad is so deluded from reality that its not even funny.

Actually, I seem to be more connected to reality than a lot of people reading this thread. Clearly my posts are not being read by you, as if they were you wouldn't be making comments like this. On the current information, the price of this apartment is not €10, it is €16,000 net after 1 year. That is all I was pointing out. If you think that being duped into spending €16,000 more than you planned is a good thing then knock yourself out. (I should also point out that the €16,000 assumes the 'winner' wouldn't have to take out a loan to pay the stamp duty, otherwise tack on a few k's in interest too.)

If you think any of this is wrong, then please come forward with a meaningful contribution.

If the OP accepts paying the Stamp Duty (as suggested earlier) then, again as I've posted, I've no difficulty with this.

pagekarl · 04-08-2008 2:06pm

bren2002 wrote: »

Actually, I seem to be more connected to reality than a lot of people reading this thread. Clearly my posts are not being read by you, as if they were you wouldn't be making comments like this. On the current information, the price of this apartment is not €10, it is €16,000 net after 1 year. That is all I was pointing out. If you think that being duped into spending €16,000 more than you planned is a good thing then knock yourself out. (I should also point out that the €16,000 assumes the 'winner' wouldn't have to take out a loan to pay the stamp duty, otherwise tack on a few k's in interest too.)

If you think any of this is wrong, then please come forward with a meaningful contribution.

If the OP accepts paying the Stamp Duty (as suggested earlier) then, again as I've posted, I've no difficulty with this.

Again I dont think your grasping the concept of winning an apartment...There are several options to the winner that would all only increase their financial status i.e if there was 16k of costs...sell apartment and bag 200k..... Cha Ching!!!!! Only the most negative person could turn a plus of winning a 250k prize for spending even the worse case 16k into a negative thing... But as the scientist said..."lets keep this friendly". The nuts n bolts if this comp have not been established so I cant comment on the stamp duty costs just yet.....

And I think also this thread is getting sidetracked (still vhelpful) as I am trying to ascertain how many tickets I could possibly sell and the time line/costs for such a competition.....

Im still under the impression that this is an idea I will certainly be looking into further.....:D

Andrea B. · 04-08-2008 2:09pm

Similar topic. From a full page ad in yesterdays Sunday Times motoring supplement.

www.winme.ie

Jackdee · 05-08-2008 12:07pm

I checked out that site www.winme.ie and they too are raffling off a house. But the house or apartment hasn't been bought yet. So the winner of the raffle gets to pick their own.
Not sure about the stamp duty thing but if I won I wouldn't mind paying the stamp if I was getting a new home!

Raffle off an Apartment!!

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