Is outdoor running > treadmill running?

Oisin11178 · 21-10-2010 4:53pm #1

I know most people will say outdoors is better but there is a reason for this question.
If you can achive say 10k in under 40 mins on a treadmill at about 90% is it reasonable to assume you would go under 40 mins outdoors during a race?
Assumimg that the course is reasonably flat and the wind is negligable.

Oisin11178 · 21-10-2010 4:55pm

Can one of the mods move this to the main section please.

tunney · 21-10-2010 4:57pm

Oisin11178 wrote: »

I know most people will say outdoors is better but there is a reason for this question.
If you can achive say 10k in under 40 mins on a treadmill at about 90% is it reasonable to assume you would go under 40 mins outdoors during a race?
Assumimg that the course is reasonably flat and the wind is negligable.

You can cheat running on a threadmill. Vertical height translates to horizontal movement.

RoyMcC · 21-10-2010 5:29pm

Oisin11178 wrote: »

If you can achive say 10k in under 40 mins on a treadmill at about 90% is it reasonable to assume you would go under 40 mins outdoors during a race?

Hmm possibly, if the tready is at 2-3% incline. But even outdoors you'll always be sure to improve on your training times in a race - probably by 10% if you're a lazy trainer (like me.)

Oisin11178 · 21-10-2010 5:36pm

Since i started running my treadmill times for distances like 5k and 10k have always been very close to race times. Maybe as someone already said the lack of external forces such as weather ect.. are negated by race day adrenaline and taper.

sean_84 · 21-10-2010 7:17pm

tunney wrote: »

You can cheat running on a threadmill. Vertical height translates to horizontal movement.

I'm not sure about that. If you don't make horizontal movement relative to the belt, you'll be going off the end of the treadmill

bart simpson · 21-10-2010 7:35pm

sean_84 wrote: »

I'm not sure about that. If you don't make horizontal movement relative to the belt, you'll be going off the end of the treadmill

yeah, could you explain more on what you mean tunney,
if you were measuring a 10 k outdoor course and you did it 100 % accurate but all of it was up hill, the competitors would run 10 k, but if the crow flew it it would not be 10k....so the threadmill is the same as outdoor when it comes to factoring inclination and distance, isnt it?

BeepBeep67 · 21-10-2010 7:51pm

If you take long loopy strides on the treadmill, the belt is still moving at 16 kmph and you can run at the same speed with a lower cadence and use less energy. You can't do that outdoors as once you're airbourne you're slowing down.
Personally I find sessions on the treadmill harder than the track, but I think that is just mentally.

Andrew Hoey · 21-10-2010 8:01pm

doesnt the treadmill sort of carry ur foot back so its not like a full stride

ThisRegard · 21-10-2010 8:06pm

To me it seems you're just lifting your legs on a treadmill, or very little energy to get some sort of forward momentum.

Whereas on the road you'll use a lot more energy to propel your body forward.

robinph · 21-10-2010 8:06pm

If you've only done your training on a treadmill then go and race on the road I'd not be surprised if you got injured. Your feet won't be used to the harder surface of the road and also roads are not flat, so the uneven surface will most likely cause you a mischief as well.

littlebug · 21-10-2010 8:14pm

I'm at the slower end of the running scale anyway but I do a fair bit of running on the treadmill. I haven't even come close to being as fast on the road as I am on the treadmill.... there's maybe 2 minutes difference between my fastest treadmill 5k and road 5k.
My heartrate stays much lower on the treadmill too, despite sweating twice as much and feeling like its 10 times harder.

Aimman · 21-10-2010 9:36pm

I've always found less effort in running on a treadmill. I remember years ago (long time ago) I was working out in a gym on a program and delighted with my running on a treadmill. after a few weeks, I went to the local park for a run and it near killed me.

You have to push yourself forward on the road, on a treadmill, you just have to get your foot in front of you in time, to hit the belt which drives your foot back.

If you think of the physics of it, and the conservation of energy and laws of opposite and equal reactions etc, the road does nothing, you do all the work. On a treadmill, when the belt is providing energy moving for you, then it means you have to apply less energy to do the same work.

Newton would have loved a treadmill, he'd have been indoors more and probably wouldn't be out and about when that apple fell.

robinph · 21-10-2010 9:44pm

He'd have fallen off the back of the treadmill at some point though so would probably have discovered gravity that way. Just as long as there wasn't any other dangerous gym equipment nearby that might have injured him more badly of course.

plodder · 21-10-2010 10:39pm

You're not exercising your glutes at all on the treadie. Also, the incline is a bit of a con. You're not actually working against gravity, just forcing your feet to work at an odd angle.

sean_84 · 21-10-2010 10:43pm

I think there's some misconceptions about running on treadmills. The mechanics and physics of running on a treadmill are the same as running on a road. When your foot is on the road, it is trying to push the road down and back, and the road is pushing you up and forward. It is the same on a treadmill except now the forward and back forces are relative to the belt.

Reasons why you might get better times on a treadmill are:

no wind resistance (but this isn't a huge factor at ~12km/h)
a perfectly even surface
a controlled constant pace
inaccurate speed measurement by the treadmill

robinph · 21-10-2010 10:54pm

Admittedly it wouldn't work at running speed on a treadmill without a bit of effort to keep you stationary, but just hop up and down and you'll still be covering distance on it. Hop up and down on the road and you'll just stay where you are. On a treadmill the time spent in the air is just as useful for covering distance as the actual forward forces as the ground will still be moving beneath you. If you do big bounding strides on the road you'll be going nowhere slowly.

ecoli · 21-10-2010 10:57pm

sean_84 wrote: »

I think there's some misconceptions about running on treadmills. The mechanics and physics of running on a treadmill are the same as running on a road. When your foot is on the road, it is trying to push the road down and back, and the road is pushing you up and forward. It is the same on a treadmill except now the forward and back forces are relative to the belt.

I agree that the mechanics are essentially the same your foot is brought in under your hips and is connecting with the ground allowing you to generate maximum power in order to propel yourself in an upward and forward motion.

I think that the difference with a treadmill is the fact you are not generating this power but in fact once your leg hits the ground it is automatically being brought under your hips by the conveyor motion of the belt so you are effectively not using the same amount of energy to hold your running form as you would on the roads. As such there is less of an energy expenditure when you are tired on a treadmill and ultimately as your run progresses you are not suffering as much as you would in the outdoors.

sean_84 · 21-10-2010 11:09pm

robinph wrote: »

Admittedly it wouldn't work at running speed on a treadmill without a bit of effort to keep you stationary, but just hop up and down and you'll still be covering distance on it. Hop up and down on the road and you'll just stay where you are. On a treadmill the time spent in the air is just as useful for covering distance as the actual forward forces as the ground will still be moving beneath you. If you do big bounding strides on the road you'll be going nowhere slowly.

If you just hop up and down you will go off the end of the treadmill

Imagine if you were on a train and you are hopping up and down. Would you fall off the end of the train or keep landing on the same spot?

sean_84 · 21-10-2010 11:13pm

ecoli wrote: »

I think that the difference with a treadmill is the fact you are not generating this power but in fact once your leg hits the ground it is automatically being brought under your hips by the conveyor motion of the belt so you are effectively not using the same amount of energy to hold your running form as you would on the roads. As such there is less of an energy expenditure when you are tired on a treadmill and ultimately as your run progresses you are not suffering as much as you would in the outdoors.

But the road also brings your leg under your hips in the same way, as your body will have forward momentum. On both road or treadmill, if you stop running, your leg will go too far behind your body and you will fall on your face. When you actually want to stop running without falling, you will put your foot in front of your body so that the road will be pushing you back, causing you to lose momentum.

robinph · 21-10-2010 11:15pm

You'd still need some kind of forward movement to keep you stationary, but the higher you jump the more distance the treadmill will have moved underneath you for you only having used very little forward forces.

Emer911 · 21-10-2010 11:18pm

Hate treadmills.
'nuff said!

robinph · 21-10-2010 11:23pm

Long article and I got bored long before the end:

http://www.pponline.co.uk/encyc/treadmill.html

...but it quotes a few studies about the difference between treadmills and real running.

plodder · 21-10-2010 11:28pm

I see people in the gym walking (actually hanging on for dear life) with the incline cranked up to the maximum. They should try running or walking up a real slope of 10-15% and they'd see the difference.

ecoli · 21-10-2010 11:38pm

sean_84 wrote: »

But the road also brings your leg under your hips in the same way, as your body will have forward momentum. On both road or treadmill, if you stop running, your leg will go too far behind your body and you will fall on your face. When you actually want to stop running without falling, you will put your foot in front of your body so that the road will be pushing you back, causing you to lose momentum.

Your leg may hit the ground similarly, however you do not take into account a the power you generate with the pull you exert on the ground plus stride length etc. The treadmill dictates your rhythm.

Here is an example

Athlete A (Road) exerts 80% effort to achieve a stride length of 1.75m in order to achieve 6 min

Athlete B (Treadmill) exerts 60% effort in order to maintain 1.25m in order to achieve the same pace

Here we see that the treadmill is compensating for the reduced effort and the stride length becomes insignificant

Interestingly here is a article on the matter

http://www.posetech.com/training/archives/000165.html

sean_84 · 22-10-2010 9:19am

Emer911 wrote: »

Hate treadmills.

Me too

robinph wrote: »

Long article and I got bored long before the end:

http://www.pponline.co.uk/encyc/treadmill.html

...but it quotes a few studies about the difference between treadmills and real running.

There's nothing there that contradicts what I am saying. I gave some points in my post above that can account for different performances on the road or the treadmill. Another two are that the surface is slightly soft/bouncy, and that the stride may change because of a fear of falling off the back. But the ideas that a treadmill is easier because it pulls your leg back or because it keeps moving when you are in the air are false.

ecoli wrote: »

Your leg may hit the ground similarly, however you do not take into account a the power you generate with the pull you exert on the ground plus stride length etc. The treadmill dictates your rhythm.

Here is an example

Athlete A (Road) exerts 80% effort to achieve a stride length of 1.75m in order to achieve 6 min

Athlete B (Treadmill) exerts 60% effort in order to maintain 1.25m in order to achieve the same pace

Here we see that the treadmill is compensating for the reduced effort and the stride length becomes insignificant

Interestingly here is a article on the matter

http://www.posetech.com/training/archives/000165.html

If Athlete B is only covering 1.25m/stride at the same stride rate, then he is moving slower.

Imagine a treadmill set to 12km/hr that is on wheels and is being pulled forward by a car at 12km/hr. The top of the belt will be static relative to the the road below, so you can see that is the same as running on the road.

MrCreosote · 22-10-2010 9:26am

What about if you've a plane on the treadmill- will the plane take off?

ThisRegard · 22-10-2010 9:35am

sean_84 wrote: »

Imagine if you were on a train and you are hopping up and down. Would you fall off the end of the train or keep landing on the same spot?

The physics is different, the train itself is moving and you with it giving you forward momentum, the treadmill is stationary.

Gringo78 · 22-10-2010 9:39am

I do about 50% of my running on a treadmill at the moment. I pay no heed to pace and just try to hit HRs that I know I would hit on the road at that pace. I use 1% incline and find big variation in speeds between different treadmills, but never really correlates to the road, could be faster could be slower. I can see though how you could develop a running style suited to higher speeds on the treadmill....eg you often see people grabbing the handles which definitely enables you to run 'faster' on the treadmill

plodder · 22-10-2010 9:43am

sean_84 wrote: »

But the ideas that a treadmill is easier because it pulls your leg back or because it keeps moving when you are in the air are false.

What if the belt weren't motorised? Would that be harder or easier, or the same?

sean_84 · 22-10-2010 10:16am

MrCreosote wrote: »

What about if you've a plane on the treadmill- will the plane take off?

Yep, because the force causing acceleration is provided from the jet engine or propeller, and not the wheels, so it will move forward relative to the air around it regardless of what the treadmill underneath it is doing.

ThisRegard wrote: »

The physics is different, the train itself is moving and you with it giving you forward momentum, the treadmill is stationary.

Yes, but I was trying to explain that you will land on the same spot relative to the the body you are hopping up and down on, and not the earth beneath.

plodder wrote: »

What if the belt weren't motorised? Would that be harder or easier, or the same?

Harder, because you have to overcome the friction between the belt and whatever pulleys it is running on. Acceleration will be harder again, as you will also have to accelerate the belt.

Anyway I'd say Gringo78's approach is good, and suggests that not much effort is put into calibrating treadmills.

Is outdoor running > treadmill running?

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