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Community Losing Signal!

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  • 13-02-2006 10:41pm
    #1
    netwhizkid
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,558 ✭✭✭


    Where I live in Kilgarvan Co. Kerry, We are experiencing a boom of Windmills with over two hundred scheduled to be built over the next two years. Now one wind-farm is already under way and there is six Windmills already erected. TG4 has already been knocked out and rumour has it that all 4 terrestrial channels will be goosed when the Windmills are all built and the blades rotating (which they aren't even doing yet!) Has this happened anywhere else? Like it doesnt affect my self at all as we have Sky but loads of people around here don't have Sky. I got sick of the Reception weakening away down through the years and opted for Sky in 2001 before RTÉ even came on it. We have an attic Aerial and the Terrestrial signal is gone quite snowy since 2000 and with the Wind Turbines now it looks like that all the Signal (which comes from Mullaghanish) See Map

    This is what the Wind-farm looks Like from my Gable Window (taken on a 14x Lens) It really only looks like a spec on the horizon to the naked eye and can only be viewed on a fine day, although that photo was taken by me in Early January and several More windmills have been erected Recently although more to the left of the Windmill in the Photo.

    This is the Windmill up-close taken on St. Stephen's Day.

    Like I am all in favour of Windmills and have no gripes with them only this. Surely the Onus is on RTÉ now to either boost the Signal or Build a Local Transmitter tower. Why the heck should we have to pay TV Licenses if we can't receive the stations, as was the case with my Uncle who recently, built a new house and had to get Sky as now Signal was available.

    Anyone else have experience of Windmill Signal blockage?

    It is either up to RTE or Hibernian Wind Energy to fix this and the people should not have to resort to Sky because of this. Another reason for RTÉ on FTA Satellite..... :mad: As for DTT, We can only dream until we get rid of Harney and Bertie anyway. I believe Irish people will soon have to buy adapters as most new TVs will soon be coming DTT ready without analogue tuners!

    I will also check next weekend to see if the Windmills are effecting the Reception at an elevation above the Wind-farm, I know that a Signal as good as Sky in terms of clarity and quality could be got there last year.


    Your thoughts and opinions as well as your feedback is greatly appreciated. :)


Comments

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    #2
    Sponge Bob
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 25,234 ✭✭✭✭Sponge Bob


    Frankly its the responsibility of the Wind Farm Operator to pay RTÉ networks to put in a Local Transmitter, a deflector fully owned by RTÉ , because the Wind Farm caused the problem not RTÉ . Its precedent that must be set somewhere, why not in Kerry first ??


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    #3
    Antenna
    Registered Users Posts: 2,311 ✭✭✭Antenna


    netwhizkid wrote:
    I got sick of the Reception weakening away down through the years

    thats probably due to forrestry growing in the path of the signal to you. The signals from Mullaghanish might be reaching you over some hilltop. However if forrestry grows on that hilltop it can greatly weaken the signals, with the effect being different across channels. UHF (TV3,TG4 will be worse affected than VHF (RTE1,2).

    The windmills rather than blocking signals will cause reflections (multipath), - due to the time delay between the direct and reflected signal it will cause ghosts or multiple images on screen. Is this your problem? If the ghosting is very bad the picture will be unstable with (on some TVs) the audio muting on and off.
    With the blades moving the ghosts might be constantly varying in intensity (more annoying)
    netwhizkid wrote:
    I believe Irish people will soon have to buy adapters as most new TVs will soon be coming DTT ready without analogue tuners!

    I doubt we will see too many TVs with digital only tuners anytime soon.
    In areas (UK etc) with DTT people will however still demand new digital TVs to receive both analogue and DTT - due to the use of RF modulated outs on satellite receivers, VCRs, cable decoders, security cameras etc etc to supply TVs in other rooms. And in many countries (including the US) it is planned that cable systems will continue supplying analogue (if they want to) AFTER analogue transmitters are switched off.
    In parts of Germany where analogue transmitters have been turned off, the cable systems in those places are still carrying the major TV stations in analogue.


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    #4
    Ulsterman 1690
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,242 ✭✭✭Ulsterman 1690


    I have heard of interference problems caused by metal windmill blades before. Pretty rare but it does happen. Does anyone know if it affects digital radio/TV ?
    Frankly its the responsibility of the Wind Farm Operator to pay RTÉ networks to put in a Local Transmitter, a deflector fully owned by RTÉ , because the Wind Farm caused the problem not RTÉ . Its precedent that must be set somewhere, why not in Kerry first ??

    There was a high court case in London taken by London residents claiming that the Canary Wharf skyscraper ruined their TV reception. Initially they won but the developers appealed it to the high court who ruled against the residents.

    Unless there is something specifically different in Irish law then this case can probably be taken as precedent
    probably due to forrestry growing in the path of the signal to you
    In that case youre REALLY :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: ed I dont think anyone has ever succesfully sued a tree.

    Besides when the government cant even be @r$€;d to enforce the (ludicrously lax) regulations on RF interference from electrical appliances (including that caused by most TV-sets to Long, Medium and short wave radio) then you havent a hope against the windmills !


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    #5
    netwhizkid
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,558 ✭✭✭netwhizkid


    Ulsterman 1690 wrote:
    I have heard of interference problems caused by metal windmill blades before. Pretty rare but it does happen. Does anyone know if it affects digital radio/TV ?



    There was a high court case in London taken by London residents claiming that the Canary Wharf skyscraper ruined their TV reception. Initially they won but the developers appealed it to the high court who ruled against the residents.

    Unless there is something specifically different in Irish law then this case can probably be taken as precedent


    In that case youre REALLY :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: ed I dont think anyone has ever succesfully sued a tree.

    Besides when the government cant even be @r$€;d to enforce the (ludicrously lax) regulations on RF interference from electrical appliances (including that caused by most TV-sets to Long, Medium and short wave radio) then you havent a hope against the windmills !



    Thanks of the Reply Fellas! The Radio Reception seems to be fine! Regarding the Theory on the trees, I never though of that and now that it is mentioned it is surely that that has weakened our TV signal down from near Sky Qualaty about 10yrs ago to a very snowy shadowy image that I get today. As for the Windmills they did give guarantees to local residents that objected to their construction that they would rectify their tv signal if it was disrupted, However I live between 3 and 4miles away from them and the community in general got no guarantees.

    As for the Digital side of things :rolleyes: We live down here with Sky as our Digital provider:eek: and from what I've gathered it will be that way for a good while. :mad: I did hear of a person getting BBC and S4C, HTV on top of a mountain once that was beamed in from Wales. I hope to be able to come to the bottom of this as why the heck should we pay a TV license only to have to come along and pay Sky to receive anything watchable rather than a RTE welding torch quality reception. I have a defunct RTÉ Booster in a field of Mine that was once used to distribute the Signal locally. I will speak to a person I know that is almost and authority on everything electrical around these parts and see what he says.


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    #6
    byte
    Moderators, Regional North West Moderators Posts: 19,101 Mod ✭✭✭✭byte
    byte


    I have experieced a few households where the windmills have completely destroyed incoming signals. Usually when the windmill is rotating, the TV picture comes and goes as the blades rotate.

    It must be said though, that for these few houses, the signal incoming was rather poor to begin with.


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    #7
    Antenna
    Registered Users Posts: 2,311 ✭✭✭Antenna


    Ulsterman 1690 wrote:
    In that case youre REALLY :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: ed I dont think anyone has ever succesfully sued a tree.

    Several years ago I did hear of a family living in northeast Co . Cork who had a tree problem. Their TV reception (only RTE1 and Network 2, years before TV3,Tg4) had gradually deteriorated, had become very bad, and they had been under the belief their TV was to blame. Not so, there was forestry growing (on an upward slope) adjacent to their property, this was found to be the problem. He had a solicitor's letter sent to Coillte, and in response they cut a number of trees (admittably only a few trees were involved as it was the corner of the forestry!) which were in the path of Mullaghanish. They had good reception once again.
    Coillte probably did this out of peace and quite, rather than any legal precedent.


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    #8
    netwhizkid
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,558 ✭✭✭netwhizkid


    Antenna wrote:
    Several years ago I did hear of a family living in northeast Co . Cork who had a tree problem. Their TV reception (only RTE1 and Network 2, years before TV3,Tg4) had gradually deteriorated, had become very bad, and they had been under the belief their TV was to blame. Not so, there was forestry growing (on an upward slope) adjacent to their property, this was found to be the problem. He had a solicitor's letter sent to Coillte, and in response they cut a number of trees (admittably only a few trees were involved as it was the corner of the forestry!) which were in the path of Mullaghanish. They had good reception once again.
    Coillte probably did this out of peace and quite, rather than any legal precedent.

    I rang RTE today and the general consensus they gave me was they were going to do feck all, and that the community should come together and lobby the Wind farm Company. They were to ring me back as I was only speaking to some receptionist, they rang me when I was in an awful signal area on the (Mobile phone) I got their number of the Caller ID and will ring them again tommorow and see what they have to say. Like I am pretty mad at it as We were considering dumping Sky for a Satellite FTA setup and use the Aerial for the Terrestrial channels. Another cluster of 4 Windmills has now been erected and I am expecting the whole Signal Spectrum to go soon. The Radio seems to be okay and I can still receive the 7 FM Radio Stations pretty good:

    RTE Radio 1,
    2FM,
    Radio na Gaeltachta,
    96.4 Red FM (from Cork :rolleyes:),
    Radio Kerry :) ,
    Lyric FM and
    Today FM, plus a load of crappy AM channels.

    I'll update the thread on what RTE says to me tomorrow.


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    #9
    Ulsterman 1690
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,242 ✭✭✭Ulsterman 1690


    the community should come together and lobby the Wind farm Company

    Of course "the community" could just as easily "come together" and organise/threaten a TV licence strike.

    In theory crap TV reception is not an excuse in law for not paying but in practice if theres enough of you anything can happen.......


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    #10
    Sponge Bob
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 25,234 ✭✭✭✭Sponge Bob


    but RTE <could> pay a basic sky sub for the affected families in return for that licence fee AND recoup it from the windfarm and they would have perfect reception too :p


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    #11
    netwhizkid
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,558 ✭✭✭netwhizkid


    Sponge Bob wrote:
    but RTE <could> pay a basic sky sub for the affected families in return for that licence fee AND recoup it from the windfarm and they would have perfect reception too :p

    Yes that would be a good solution, (for myself anyway) as if It could be worked so that RTE would pay the minimum to cover themselves and I'd pay the rest to keep the same channels I have now costing €30.50 per month, I'm on what was the "family pack" before they re-organised their subscriptions. Or I could just let RTE pay sky for their services. And go the FTA Satellite route myself for the other channels. What a disgrace really. When RTE Our National TV provider may have to pay sky a foreign company to provide the service to Kilgarvan. This really is another reason for RTE & TV3 to be on FTA Satellite or FTV with a viewing card like the British set-up. RTE afaik are paying Sky to put RTE on their EPG, out of us license payers fees, while Sky then come along and screw us to receive it of their system. The ideal situation would be to have RTE FTA on 28° East and still have it on the Sky EPG similar to EuroNews and BBC NI.


    I have contacted RTE this afternoon and they said they will be doing an Investigation sometime in the next two weeks to see what can be done from their own point of view.

    These are the latest signal blockers to be erected. I am not mad at them, but the company should have made provisions for our TV signal. It would be the least they could do with this wind farm when it is up and running next June will produce enough electricity to power all Cork City, as well as bringing Ireland into compliance with EU regulation which stipulates that so much electricity should be generated from renewable energy, saving the country millions of euro in EU fines. Yet they think it's okay to leave us without a TV signal :mad: This is the only gripe I have with them as they are so beneficial to the environment. I'm not one of those NIMBY (Not in my backyard) types. I think the windmills are fine, and the add a little something to an otherwise dull mountain.


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    #12
    Sponge Bob
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 25,234 ✭✭✭✭Sponge Bob


    netwhizkid wrote:
    Yes that would be a good solution, (for myself anyway) as if It could be worked so that RTE would pay the minimum to cover themselves and I'd pay the rest to keep the same channels I have now costing €30.50 per month

    You did no doubt write to the County manager in Kerry and ask him what his planners did to ensure TV signal continuity when they gave the windfarm permission in the first place.

    It could be that the County Council has to pay for the SKY feed (or a deflector) because they gave that planning permission (and they will charge handsome rates going forward and never mind the planning 'contribution' they got already ) . Not thinking about ye is no excuse in law. Maybe ask Tracey Ferret to blow them up , sure why not :p

    Strictly speaking RTE have done nothing wrong , but you do pay them a licence and they have a good relationship with Sky .


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    #13
    Antenna
    Registered Users Posts: 2,311 ✭✭✭Antenna


    Netwhizzkid says his signal has been deteriorating even before ANY windmills were built, so in his case at least it seems to be something else, such as forestry??Can you post a picture of your poor TV reception?
    The problem windmills are liable to cause is multipath (reflections). Multipath caused by windmills etc would cause 'ghosting' and dark areas of picture, yet you are complaining about snow, which is due to weak signal, not multipath?


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    #14
    Antenna
    Registered Users Posts: 2,311 ✭✭✭Antenna


    This appeared in the south west version of the Irish Examiner last Wednesday (15/March):

    "
    RTE blames wind farms for poor TV reception

    By Donal Hickey
    Kerry

    WIND turbines on a mountainous area along the Cork/Kerry border are interfering with RTE's signal in parts of south Kerry, the State broadcaster confirmed yesterday.
    It is also feared the problem could be much wider than was at first thought and may be made worse by a large number of wind farms, which are in the pipeline for the south-west.
    RTE sent an engineer to the area last week after complaints from people around Kilgarvan of poor reception, or no signal at all.
    The signal comes from the Mullaghanish transmitter near Ballyvourney.
    "Following his investigation, the engineer has confirmed the problem is caused by wind farms. We will be in touch with the developers with a view to resolving the problem," an RTE spokesman said.
    But, Tim Cowhig, director of Kilgarvan Wind Farms said he would be "very surprised" if the turbines were to blame.
    He said the 15 three-megawatt turbines, at the Top of Coom, had not yet come into operation.
    Neither had his company received complaints from TV viewers, or RTE.
    "We have a protocol signed with RTE to resolve problems as quickly as possible, if they arise. If the turbines are causing problems with reception we will move to rectify the problems," added Mr Cowhig, who is also head of natural resources with the west Cork-based SWS.
    Kerry South TD Jackie Healy-Rae warned that, with at least 40 turbines planned for the area, there could be "huge problems" as the wind farms business continues to expand.
    "Some way will have to be found of bending the signals around these turbines," he said.
    James Harrington, who lives at Killafadda, Kilgarvan, said he had a clear picture until about four weeks ago, but the reception was getting worse every day since.
    "We can't watch matches any more. We can't see the ball, or the man. The picture goes across the middle of the screen in lines in a zig-zag fashion. The screen gets snowy and there's a sort of tearing in the sound," he said.
    "The poor reception started with TG4, then TV3 and finally RTE One and Two. We can't get any of those channels now,"
    Councillor Danny Healy-Rae said TV licence payers are entitled to a proper reception.
    Meanwhile, a technical report on the problem is expected to be with RTE this week.
    "


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    #15
    netwhizkid
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,558 ✭✭✭netwhizkid


    Yep that is it alright, Although I myself live at a lower altitude than the person mentioned and have only lost TG4 so far. Luckily I have Sky, but still it is a thundering disgrace that RTE are not either FTA or FTV or satellite. :mad: And ontop of sending an Engineer to the area they also sent the friendly Tv License Inspector to every door. I for one will not pay my license this summer when it is up for renewal unless I can get my Terrestrial Picture as good as I could this time 12months.


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    #16
    Ulsterman 1690
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,242 ✭✭✭Ulsterman 1690


    What a PRICELESS quote
    "Some way will have to be found of bending the signals around these turbines," he said.

    I can just see the headlines now TD DEMANDS REPEAL OF LAWS OF PHYSICS IN SOUTH KERRY :rolleyes:


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    #17
    byte
    Moderators, Regional North West Moderators Posts: 19,101 Mod ✭✭✭✭byte
    byte


    Ulsterman 1690 wrote:
    What a PRICELESS quote



    I can just see the headlines now TD DEMANDS REPEAL OF LAWS OF PHYSICS IN SOUTH KERRY :rolleyes:
    ROFFLE :D


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    #18
    Zaphod
    Registered Users Posts: 1,733 ✭✭✭Zaphod


    Ulsterman 1690 wrote:
    I can just see the headlines now TD DEMANDS REPEAL OF LAWS OF PHYSICS IN SOUTH KERRY :rolleyes:


    All they have to do is to get Kerry County Council to redesignate the Jeanie Johnston as a non-financial black hole and then park it in front of Healy Rae's pub in Kilgarvan where it could serve the dual purpose role of not only warping spacetime, but also act an interesting tourist attraction.


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    #19
    netwhizkid
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,558 ✭✭✭netwhizkid


    Thanks for all the help fellas,

    Things have now come to a head with a Public meeting being held this Bank Holiday Monday night. Representatives from RTÉ & the Wind Farm will attend in a bid to come up with a suitable solution. I will attend and will be pushing hard for RTÉ to go FTA or else organise FTV cards for us on Satellite.

    I would very much appreciate it if some people here could help me in possibly directing me towards something showing how the majority of European Countries have a system where their people can view their national channels either FTA or FTV. I saw once in someone signature claiming that Albania (I think) had FTA Sat TV. Such things would make great ammunition to throw at them. We really should have RTE FTA on satellite as the BBC and ITV have done. Like if they are not interested in Astra satellites there is several other Satellite Providers who would gladly put them on. Although admittedly the Sky system is the best because the majority of people have access to it and the EPG is familiar and nice to work with providing they don't dump it onto "Other Channels" like ITV.

    The reception has really dis-improved as 5 turbines were turning this week and when the 15 of them are up to full strength I think it will be around to the neighbours to watch Sky for the majority of the people. Similar to olden days of listening to the GAA Matches on the neighbours "Wireless" ! I shall also propose a campaign of not paying the TV license. I really would love to have ammo of some god-forsaken place like Serbia or Kosovo having FTA Satellite TV but Ireland the worlds 4th richest country and no.1 for quality of life allowing Sky Digital to rip us off for €30.50 a month to watch maybe the news & weather as would be the case with many older people in my area along with that almost Religious like of things.....GAA :) I will keep ye posted on thing after the meeting.

    N.B I will post up a link on the Satellite Forum as the info I am looking for is more satellite based. Who knows I might have a impact on the whole FTA FTV Issue! :rolleyes:

    Thanking you!


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    #20
    byte
    Moderators, Regional North West Moderators Posts: 19,101 Mod ✭✭✭✭byte
    byte


    As much as I'd like to see it, I'd very much doubt RTÉ will be going FTA just coz your area can't get TV signals properly.


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    #21
    lostexpectation
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,082 ✭✭✭lostexpectation


    what the noise like from the windmills wiz?


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    #22
    netwhizkid
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,558 ✭✭✭netwhizkid


    Swoosh Swoosh! Am I actually haven't been up to the site of it since St. Stephen's day when there was only one erected and it wasn't turning. Noise isn't a problem as there is only a few isolated houses near them and when I say near I mean about half a miles walk/drive from the nearest one, they are in a remote area and I have heard nothing about the noise of them, TV problems are the main gripe at the moment alongside outsiders saying they are a blot on the "Beautiful Scenery" I'd much rather have some green electricity than listening to scenery nonsense, Then again we could go Nuclear.......Not!

    I intend to take another trip up there in about a months time when they are all Turning, I will take my Digital Camera and take a few snaps and a few minutes of Video with Sound too. They are apparently amongst the biggest turbines erected in Europe and surely Ireland's biggest so they inherently will also probably be the noisiest. I will ask a few people I know were up there this week and report back on the Noise issue. I also have noticed that they have knocked out about a Mile of Radio coverage along the main Kenmare-Killarney road in the Rossacro-Na-Loo area which is noted for its Red Deer Population and was the subject of intense debate over the Deer Cull which went ahead.


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    #23
    Antenna
    Registered Users Posts: 2,311 ✭✭✭Antenna


    Irish Examiner (Cork/Kerry edition) Tuesday 02/05/2006
    "RTE reception problems
    RTE was called upon last night to rectify problems with television reception in the Kilgarvan area of Co Kerry.
    RTE has stated that interference with reception is most likely caused by wind turbines, recently erected on elevated ground along the Cork/Kerry border.
    The signal comes from a mast on Mullaghanish near Ballyvourney.
    Kilgarvan man Tom Randles, who organised a public meeting on the issue in the village last night, said reception had been very poor for over a month.
    "People paying their licence fees to RTE are entitled to a proper reception. It's RTE's responsibility to ensure there's a reception," he said.
    "

    So how many people turned up at this meeting and was anyone from RTE present, if so what did they say?


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    #24
    netwhizkid
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,558 ✭✭✭netwhizkid


    About 25 to 35 people turned up at the meeting no one from RTE was there unfortunately. However at the meeting a Letter from SWS (South Western Services). The developer of the windfarm has agreed liability to the problem and have agreed with RTE to fix the problem by June it will also be funded by SWS and hopefully things will rectified. I will keep this thread informed as things pan out.


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    #25
    Sponge Bob
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 25,234 ✭✭✭✭Sponge Bob


    SWS erect mast and they/RTE 'deflect' , sorted.

    Seeing as the mast is going up _anyway_ Netwhizkid I suggest you inform all the wireless service providers who are active in Kerry like for example Permanet and see if you can cobble together a Group Broadband Scheme for the area as a sort of virtous double whammy for yeerselves :p

    the next round of GBS applications opens in June I hear.

    see

    http://www.swra.ie/westcork.xls
    http://www.swra.ie/kerry.xls

    check their websites and current coverage maps to see who is near to you. Also see if the mobile networks want to take the opportunity to improve mobile coverage for ye.

    as the windfarmers are being reasonable about this I would suggest a conciliatory press release thanking them for their response to the local community and for taking the matter seriously, they are not being assholes like many 'developers' can be.


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    #26
    netwhizkid
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,558 ✭✭✭netwhizkid


    An update to the situation regarding the Turbines interfering with the TV signal can be found here.


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    #27
    Antenna
    Registered Users Posts: 2,311 ✭✭✭Antenna


    More coverage in the Irish Examiner Wednesday 9/8/2006

    "It's an ill wind that threatens TV licence strike in Kerry
    By Donal Hickey

    RTE has promised to resolve problems with TV reception in parts of south Kerry in the face of pressure from politicians and a threatened TV licence strike.
    People in the Kilgarvan area, who have been unable to receive coverage of big matches or their favourite programmes, have warned they will not pay their licence fees.
    They are angry because of poor reception for several months.
    The Kilgarvan TV Action Committee has opened a special bank account into which withheld licence money can be paid.
    According to RTE, an upgrading system to improve reception has been in operation at Morley's Bridge, between Kilgarvan and Killarney, since July 6 and has resolved problems in a number of homes.
    But, RTE's Mick Kehoe has told Deputy Jackie Healy-Rae that many householders will have to redirect their TV antenna and re-tune their sets.
    "We are continuing to investigate the problem. We appreciate that this area has been having difficulties for some time," Mr Kehoe said.
    The erection of 15 wind turbines in the mountainous Inchees/Top of Coom area, is being blamed for the loss or reception.
    More turbines are planned for the area, but are to be opposed, said the chairman of the Kilgarvan TV Action Committee, Tom Randles.
    He said local people were initially in favour of wind turbines, but were having a change of heart. They intend to object to every planning application for wind farms around Kilgarvan.
    Mr Randles also said they were writing to An Post telling it not to send licence inspectors to Kilgarvan because they would be "sent away empty-handed" until the reception improved.
    "If you don't have a picture, why should you pay for your licence?" he asked."


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    #28
    Ulsterman 1690
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,242 ✭✭✭Ulsterman 1690


    Antenna wrote:
    According to RTE, an upgrading system to improve reception has been in operation at Morley's Bridge, between Kilgarvan and Killarney, since July 6 and has resolved problems in a number of homes. But, RTE's Mick Kehoe has told Deputy Jackie Healy-Rae that many householders will have to redirect their TV antenna and re-tune their sets.

    I take it the upgrading system is a new relay ?


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