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Luck Box Hand # 2

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  • 30-01-2006 2:58pm
    #1
    Culchie
    Registered Users Posts: 5,047 ✭✭✭


    Just to start by saying I got this wrong, played it badly and sucked out on Crumbs, but I'm going to post this hand, and take my medicine from the boards jury.:o

    Final Table of the 6 handed tourney in the Fitz yesterday.

    When down to 4, Myself and Crumbs had engaged earlier when he was quite shortstacked and he pushed (not for the first time). He had 44, I had AK ... I hit an A on the flop, but 4 diamonds fell to give him a flush and a double up.

    I took out the 4th player, so boosted my stack again.

    Crumbs is a very good experienced player, and know what it takes to win on the Final Table from what I know and seen of him, and before he doubled up through me with above hand, and played his shortstack extremely aggressively and well, so I'm sure it was a case of sometimes he had a hand, sometimes he didn't.

    When we were down to 3 Andy basically had 45% of chips, Crumbs 30%, and I had 25% (57k ish)...something close to that anyway.

    Blinds were 2000/4000.
    Since we were down to 3, Crumbs had been raising just about 50% of hands preflop, always 10K. I had muck so couldn't do anything to put a halt to the pressure.
    Andy as chip leader, has been sitting most hands out, as he probably thought (rightly) that his two opponents were soon or later going to do battle.

    So I'm in the BB, and it's raised to 10K by Crumbs in the SB ... I have Q10o

    I've let a few raises go by before, but I'm thinking it's time to make a stand, and test him out.
    I re-raise to 20K. There is a moment's pause, (:v: I can see Andy licking his lips) .. and Crumbs re-raises my 20K to 40K ...which of course means I'm making a decision for my tournament life here.
    So I've got my 'question' answered pretty emphatically.

    So there's now 33% of my chips in pot, if I fold I've 37K left, Crumbs would have about 100K and Andy about 80K left.

    So, I've gone a dug myself a big bloody hole and made a big mistake.

    Now the question I had to ask myself was, what am I going to do now?

    Having made one mistake, is folding now a bigger mistake, or is playing the hand a mistake? (I've a feeling the boards jury will let me know their verdict)

    It seems crystal clear that I'm behind, but by how much I was thinking.

    QQ, KK, AA is very bad news. AK I can live with, it's 60/40. An underpair is a possibility but unlikely, 10's or JJ's maybe, any smaller pair and I'm sure he would have raised more, and not want to play post flop.

    Some thoughts going through my mind were.

    Is Crumbs (a good player) bluffing me - Nope, he wasn't.
    The 44 hand crossed my mind, and to be truthful, another thought that crossed my mind was "I've had a bloody good month, so 3rd isn't the end of the world if I lose".
    I really was in a spot.


    I've already 20k in a 50k pot, with just 37K left if I fold.

    So I very reluctantly put my remaining 37K into the pot, praying for AK or an unlikely underpair but expecting KK or AA, ....... Crumbs has QQ. Darn.

    I got dead lucky and filled a straight on the river, and sucked out on Nigel.

    Lucky Culchie again. (Sorry Nigel)

    Thoughts? :o


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    #2
    bmc
    Closed Accounts Posts: 266 ✭✭bmc


    Culchie wrote:
    Thoughts? :o

    crumbs = Nigel... I never knew that.

    He probably deserved it. :)

    as regards the play... I think your own post mortem is about right.


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    #3
    Gholimoli
    Registered Users Posts: 3,450 ✭✭✭Gholimoli


    Culchie wrote:
    Just to start by saying I got this wrong, played it badly and sucked out on Crumbs, but I'm going to post this hand, and take my medicine from the boards jury.:o

    Final Table of the 6 handed tourney in the Fitz yesterday.

    When down to 4, Myself and Crumbs had engaged earlier when he was quite shortstacked and he pushed (not for the first time). He had 44, I had AK ... I hit an A on the flop, but 4 diamonds fell to give him a flush and a double up.

    I took out the 4th player, so boosted my stack again.

    Crumbs is a very good experienced player, and know what it takes to win on the Final Table from what I know and seen of him, and before he doubled up through me with above hand, and played his shortstack extremely aggressively and well, so I'm sure it was a case of sometimes he had a hand, sometimes he didn't.

    When we were down to 3 Andy basically had 45% of chips, Crumbs 30%, and I had 25% (57k ish)...something close to that anyway.

    Blinds were 2000/4000.
    Since we were down to 3, Crumbs had been raising just about 50% of hands preflop, always 10K. I had muck so couldn't do anything to put a halt to the pressure.
    Andy as chip leader, has been sitting most hands out, as he probably thought (rightly) that his two opponents were soon or later going to do battle.

    So I'm in the BB, and it's raised to 10K by Crumbs in the SB ... I have Q10o

    I've let a few raises go by before, but I'm thinking it's time to make a stand, and test him out.
    I re-raise to 20K. There is a moment's pause, (:v: I can see Andy licking his lips) .. and Crumbs re-raises my 20K to 40K ...which of course means I'm making a decision for my tournament life here.
    So I've got my 'question' answered pretty emphatically.

    So there's now 33% of my chips in pot, if I fold I've 37K left, Crumbs would have about 100K and Andy about 80K left.

    So, I've gone a dug myself a big bloody hole and made a big mistake.

    Now the question I had to ask myself was, what am I going to do now?

    Having made one mistake, is folding now a bigger mistake, or is playing the hand a mistake? (I've a feeling the boards jury will let me know their verdict)

    It seems crystal clear that I'm behind, but by how much I was thinking.

    QQ, KK, AA is very bad news. AK I can live with, it's 60/40. An underpair is a possibility but unlikely, 10's or JJ's maybe, any smaller pair and I'm sure he would have raised more, and not want to play post flop.

    Some thoughts going through my mind were.

    Is Crumbs (a good player) bluffing me - Nope, he wasn't.
    The 44 hand crossed my mind, and to be truthful, another thought that crossed my mind was "I've had a bloody good month, so 3rd isn't the end of the world if I lose".
    I really was in a spot.


    I've already 20k in a 50k pot, with just 37K left if I fold.

    So I very reluctantly put my remaining 37K into the pot, praying for AK or an unlikely underpair but expecting KK or AA, ....... Crumbs has QQ. Darn.

    I got dead lucky and filled a straight on the river, and sucked out on Nigel.

    Lucky Culchie again. (Sorry Nigel)

    Thoughts? :o
    i think its better to push if your making a stand and you think a player is at it.
    if you just reraise he gets another chance of making a play at you.
    then your faced with thougher decisions.
    basically you either feel your hand is good enough to make a stand with ,in which case you push,or if your just testing the water with a reraise then stick to your plan and fold when he comes over the top.


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    #4
    Marq
    Registered Users Posts: 2,886 ✭✭✭Marq


    Culchie wrote:
    another thought that crossed my mind was "I've had a bloody good month, so 3rd isn't the end of the world if I lose".
    I think you would agree that this is silly thinking at the final table of any tournament.

    What were you hoping to acheive with your min-raise to 20k? If you were trying to establish whether or not you are very far behind, you've just found out. If you were trying to win the hand there and then, this size raise is awful - Nigel will undoubtedly have to call with almost any two cards, and you have no new information about his hand.

    Quite rightly, You shouldn't work out the odds based on Nigel's re-re-raise to 40k, but to 57k, as there is no chance of you dropping on the flop getting 6:1. so at the point when Nigel makes it 40 you are effectively being asked for 37k into a pot of 77k, about 2:1. You yourself believe that of all the possible hands Nigel is playing, you are only getting correct odds against one of them (AK).

    If you fold, you are still healthy enough to aggressively play a shortstack - you'll have half of Andy's stack and over a third of Nigel's so they are going to need legitimate hands to call your all-ins, which you will be making 2 hands out of 3 for the next two or three orbits.

    I can palate the call in the end, but I think the raise to 20k is awful.


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    #5
    Culchie
    Registered Users Posts: 5,047 ✭✭✭Culchie


    Marq wrote:
    I think you would agree that this is silly thinking at the final table of any tournament.

    What were you hoping to acheive with your min-raise to 20k? If you were trying to establish whether or not you are very far behind, you've just found out. If you were trying to win the hand there and then, this size raise is awful - Nigel will undoubtedly have to call with almost any two cards, and you have no new information about his hand.

    Quite rightly, You shouldn't work out the odds based on Nigel's re-re-raise to 40k, but to 57k, as there is no chance of you dropping on the flop getting 6:1. so at the point when Nigel makes it 40 you are effectively being asked for 37k into a pot of 77k, about 2:1. You yourself believe that of all the possible hands Nigel is playing, you are only getting correct odds against one of them (AK).

    If you fold, you are still healthy enough to aggressively play a shortstack - you'll have half of Andy's stack and over a third of Nigel's so they are going to need legitimate hands to call your all-ins, which you will be making 2 hands out of 3 for the next two or three orbits.

    I can palate the call in the end, but I think the raise to 20k is awful.

    I'm not offering any defence at all, I played it like a muppet and dug a big hole for myself.


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    #6
    Marq
    Registered Users Posts: 2,886 ✭✭✭Marq


    You asked for my thoughts...


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    #7
    Hitman Actual
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,362 ✭✭✭Hitman Actual


    Marq wrote:

    I can palate the call in the end, but I think the raise to 20k is awful.

    That's pretty much my thinking as well, Culchie. I think the min raise put in to a really tricky situation.


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    #8
    Culchie
    Registered Users Posts: 5,047 ✭✭✭Culchie


    Marq wrote:
    You asked for my thoughts...

    I've no problem with them

    What time does HJ get up at?


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    #9
    Hectorjelly
    Registered Users Posts: 6,696 ✭✭✭Hectorjelly


    Culchie wrote:
    I've no problem with them

    What time does HJ get up at?

    Late!

    I agree with what has been said, the min raise is terrible. Once in that situation I would probably call, allthough Crumbs reminraise (which is awful as well) might get me to fold fearing AA KK. What struck me about your post is
    Culchie wrote:
    Crumbs had been raising just about 50% of hands preflop, always 10K. I had muck so couldn't do anything to put a halt to the pressure.

    3 handed you dont need good cards to play back at someone.


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    #10
    Culchie
    Registered Users Posts: 5,047 ✭✭✭Culchie


    Hectorjelly wrote:
    Late!

    I agree with what has been said, the min raise is terrible. Once in that situation I would probably call, allthough Crumbs reminraise (which is awful as well) might get me to fold fearing AA KK. What struck me about your post is



    3 handed you dont need good cards to play back at someone.

    Phew, I was braced for worse.

    I mean muck, I'm not shy about playing back at someone, but 8 2 and 7 3, with Chip Leader on my left, I needed (would have liked) some sort of co-ordinated cards, but Oscar wasn't being very obliging.


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    #11
    Hectorjelly
    Registered Users Posts: 6,696 ✭✭✭Hectorjelly


    Culchie wrote:
    Phew, I was braced for worse.

    I mean muck, I'm not shy about playing back at someone, but 8 2 and 7 3, with Chip Leader on my left, I needed (would have liked) some sort of co-ordinated cards, but Oscar wasn't being very obliging.

    Your not hoping to get called so it really makes no difference what cards you have. Cards are only one part of the equation, and sometimes it really makes no difference what they are.


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    #12
    ntlbell
    Registered Users Posts: 16,288 ✭✭✭✭ntlbell


    Culchie wrote:
    Phew, I was braced for worse.

    I mean muck, I'm not shy about playing back at someone, but 8 2 and 7 3, with Chip Leader on my left, I needed (would have liked) some sort of co-ordinated cards, but Oscar wasn't being very obliging.

    You're such a rock mick :mad:

    :v::v:


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    #13
    Crumbs
    Registered Users Posts: 1,080 ✭✭✭Crumbs


    Hectorjelly wrote:
    I agree with what has been said, the min raise is terrible. Once in that situation I would probably call, allthough Crumbs reminraise (which is awful as well) might get me to fold fearing AA KK.
    Agreed. My min-re-re-raise is quite lame but for all intents and purposes it's an all-in. (I think Culchie's stack was 51k.)


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