New ultra capacitor could put the rechargeable battery out of business

probe · 03-01-2009 4:53pm #1

A US patent was issued recently (16.12.08) to EEstor Inc, a company based in Cedar Park, TX, for an ultra capacitor that can store 52 kWh of electricity – which is about the same capacity as the battery in a Tesla Roadster. The capacitor has an estimated production cost of $3,200 – expected to fall to $2,100 in mass production.

Charging time varies depending on the power supply available – eg 4 hrs with a 110 V American power supply, 2 hours with a European 230 V supply, and a few minutes with a 320 Amp connection (which one might find in filling stations when this technology gets traction). A 3 MW windmill produces about 13,000 amps at 230 volts at full output – though they normally generate electricity at much higher voltages (eg 1,000 volts = 3,000 amps).

EEstor say that they have cycled the capacitor a million times (full charge and discharge) without any loss of charge holding capacity. Its self discharge rate is reported to be about 0.1%, so for example one could leave one’s electric car parked at an airport for a full year, and the capacitor would have over 98% of its power remaining a year later. The capacitance is rated at 30.693 farads and it weighs 152 kg with a mass of 33 litres. [The lithium polymer battery in a Venturi Fettish car weighs 350kg (capacity = 45 kWh)]. The conventional fuel tank in a typical car is about 50 litres.

The capacitor would have the potential to make far more “burst energy” available to a car’s electric motor compared with a conventional battery, (the best battery cars currently deliver a 0-100 km/h acceleration time of about 4 seconds). An EEstor capacitor powered car with a 300 kW motor would leave anything else frozen in time at the traffic lights :-)

In addition to automotive use, these have the potential to store large quantities of electricity from wind and solar generators, and small versions could replace batteries in everything from the mobile phone to the laptop computer to the vacuum cleaner – charging fully in a few seconds! It would probably be economic to have an ultra capacitor in the home to charge up with power overnight or at another time when electricity is cheap, taking advantage of smart metering systems – discharging it over several days.

The company is funded by Kleiner Perkins www.kpcb.com, the same venture capital company that funded Google and many other successful technology companies. They also received funding from the Canadian electric car company Zenn Motors www.zenncars.com and Zenn plans to have an EEstor powered electric car on the market later in 2009. Lockheed Martin, one of the main US.gov war hardware suppliers has also put money in, and will be using the capacitors in its “products”. The materials used in the capacitor are said to be non-toxic.

EEstor is playing its cards close to the chest – and have no website up yet. www.eestor.us has a Network Solutions holding page. There are a few blog type sites around which look as if they are closely connected to the company (links below). One suspects that they have been waiting for the grant of key patents to protect the technology before going into marketing mode. One can’t patent a capacitor, so the patents seem to cover component technologies such as the use of barium titanate ceramic powders in the capacitor and similar. Do a search at the US patent office for patent number 7466536 for more information – www.uspto.gov.

EEstor’s production line appears to be ready to roll in the near future – they seem to be well past the laboratory stage. It will be interesting to see how fast they can ramp up production given the relatively small funding disclosed to date - of course licensing is an option, and Intel might be interested in this option - http://theeestory.com/topics/933. If this technology proceeds to plan, it will have huge consequences for the traditional car manufacturing industry – putting the production lines for gearboxes and internal combustion engines out of work. Not to mention the car servicing business, because electric cars have a far less intensive servicing requirement. While it might come under the “too good to be true” category in many peoples’ minds, there are lots of signals that the technology has promise, and one would expect to see some delivery during 2009. Ultra capacitor technologies have been used in hybrid cars and tram systems. If EEstor has managed to use different materials to increase the storage density of the capacitor they could be in a Moore’s Law type path, similar to the semiconductor industry.

Cedar Park is just next to Round Rock, TX – home to Dell – both suburbs of Austin.

Their office is a low key building – the google camera truck has been snooping down Discovery Boulevard in Cedar Park > http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=en&geocode=&q=715+Discovery+Boulevard+%23+107,+Cedar+Park,+TX+78613&sll=37.0625,-95.677068&sspn=55.148262,116.367188&ie=UTF8&z=17&g=715+Discovery+Boulevard+%23+107,+Cedar+Park,+TX+78613&iwloc=addr&layer=c&cbll=30.519225,-97.821164&panoid=v5kL0L3F4UNpbD-YvgCT3w&cbp=12,332.0904229248141,,0,10.68070594752009

Blogs which appears close to the company: http://bariumtitanate.blogspot.com

And http://theeestory.com

Other related links:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story
/LAC.20081202.RBREAKTHROUGHZENN03/TPStory/Business

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EEStor

Danno · 03-01-2009 8:10pm

Brilliant - bye bye Oil!

Ciaran500 · 03-01-2009 8:13pm

Sounds great but I'm always suspicious of claims like this. Any sort of testing been done on them?

probe · 03-01-2009 10:52pm

Ciaran500 wrote: »

Sounds great but I'm always suspicious of claims like this. Any sort of testing been done on them?

I've seen some reference to a company doing an independent review of the technology - but I haven't come across any published independent "audit report".

While one might regard Kleiner Perkins as just dumb gullible venture capitalists with deep pockets, and Zenn cars as a small Canadian electric car producer who would easily fall for a con merchant who had a cheap, fast to charge, long lasting battery in the pipeline, Lockheed Martin could be a nasty bunch if they got on the wrong side of them with all their weapons technology!

The proof of the pudding is in the eating. If we see a Zenn car running on an EEstor capacitor on the market during 2009 it will be a hopeful sign. Bookmark http://bariumtitanate.blogspot.com/ and no doubt you will read it there first. [The blog doesn't have any RSS feed link :-(]

If the technology works as suggested, it will be nice to have a mobile phone and notebook PC that charges in 10 seconds or less (although they will probably require a biggish charger - though you probably won't have to take it with you on unless you are going away for a month or more).

If they have a working technology solution in place, they are one suspects very busy negotiating deals with big companies - Mercedes Benz, BMW, Toyota etc spring to mind (the Zenn exclusive arrangement seems only to apply to tiny vehicles). They would be better off getting up front cash from car manufacturers with big pockets rather than going for another round of VC funding which would dilute their equity share.

robtri · 05-01-2009 12:32pm

Sounds great......
bit of a misleading thread title, don't think they are going to replace batteries......

Cabaal · 05-01-2009 3:35pm

robtri wrote: »

Sounds great......
bit of a misleading thread title, don't think they are going to replace batteries......

Big car batterys yes, laptop or AA batterys no

h8red · 05-01-2009 3:45pm

robtri wrote: »

Sounds great......
bit of a misleading thread title, don't think they are going to replace batteries......

Cabaal wrote: »

Big car batterys yes, laptop or AA batterys no

Huh? Why not?

probe wrote: »

... and small versions could replace batteries in everything from the mobile phone to the laptop computer to the vacuum cleaner – charging fully in a few seconds!

robtri · 05-01-2009 4:29pm

h8red wrote: »

Huh? Why not?

cause as per the op
The capacitor has an estimated production cost of $3,200 – expected to fall to $2,100 in mass production.

thats a damn expensive aa battery :rolleyes:

probe · 05-01-2009 10:00pm

robtri wrote: »

cause as per the op
The capacitor has an estimated production cost of $3,200 – expected to fall to $2,100 in mass production.

thats a damn expensive aa battery :rolleyes:

That's the price of a 52 kWh battery, capable of getting a car from 0 to 100 km/h in 4 secs. The capacitor battery for a mobile phone is only about 1,000 mAh size. It should cost no more than an old fashioned mobile phone battery.

You can buy a central heating system for a house for perhaps €10k. It will cost a hell of a lot more to heat a 50 story office building.

Price invariably depends on capacity.

robtri · 06-01-2009 9:19am

Probe, can you link me to anything that shows that this ultra high capacitor can be used in small applications? as everything I read is about large units, cars and houses...

Also I have noted that, the patent was originally filed in August 2004 over 4 years ago.. and still no working example, this doesn't sound right at all now does it... The united states patent office will issue patents on anything they don't test items, I believe the only exception is perpetual motion machines....

jobrok1 · 06-01-2009 9:34am

robtri wrote: »

Probe, can you link me to anything that shows that this ultra high capacitor can be used in small applications? as everything I read is about large units, cars and houses...
QUOTE]

Read the 5th paragragh in the 1st post.

Obviously starting out they're going with a larger version for electric cars and such as it will impress Average Joe more than a new mobile phone battery replacement would.

Capt'n Midnight · 12-01-2009 12:52am

52KWhr/$2,100
25Whr per dollar is good if it can be done. This would translate into car batteries for twenty notes excluding the economy of scale. So in the ball park of current lead acid prices.

But capacitors have a much longer number of charge / discharge cycles and potenitally faster to charge.

Patents though prove nothing you don't even need a prototype or instructions on how to make it just an expression of what would make it special if it could be made.

oh yeah the only reason you can't patent capacitors is that they are already in use.

robtri · 13-01-2009 5:21pm

jobrok1 wrote: »

Obviously starting out they're going with a larger version for electric cars and such as it will impress Average Joe more than a new mobile phone battery replacement would.

Actually somehting like a working example would impress me..... but lets face it thats not happening....

probe · 14-01-2009 10:06pm

Another item of EEstor :
http://bariumtitanate.blogspot.com/2009/01/lockheed-martin-thinks-eestor-could-be.html

In the Jan 2009 issue of "LM Today", a Lockheed Martin employee newsletter, the company claims that EEstor "could be true game-changing technology".

www.lockheedmartin.com

derry · 16-01-2009 1:18pm

I think I took part in a thread in some USA forum in 2005 when I first heard of it

Things seeem to be the same since .No working example after 4 years not good

Also lots of sceptical remarks from electronic types.This type of capassitor would be 1000 volts per plate So three plates makes 3000 volts

Normal capasitors are something like 3 volts per plate.The sceptics who knew thier stufff were saying then 1000 volts was lot and too much to belive without a working model.Also the material was a ceramic which is notoriously fragile .They figured a car with this one pot hole and your walking home.As a surge assitor for battery cars not so big an issue one pot hole limp home on batterywith less range.

For fixxed power stations like wind farms the potensial looks better to store power for ten minutes to give time to start up the reserve power units like turbine jets if the wind died

As the price of oil falls futher down probably stay at less than $50 dollors a barrel for ten years alot of projects will be in troble unles governements make oil a high priced item to make alternitives attractive

But the regime is swimming in anglo sh!te so we can probably kiss goodbye to altenitives to oil as they wont be suitably cheap eneogh .The Greens are up sh!te river without a paddle with the cutting back on bus service so it looks like goodbye greens .

God how I hate how the oil companies always win becasue they fool all the greens with dude the oil is running out stuff when we swimming in the crap

Until oil is seen as the enemy to society as it dictates terms with the help of the kickback regime we will drive cars spewing out toxic fumes for another 100 years

Forget greenhouse gasses that another invention from the nuclear power industry

Only taxxing the crap out of oil and making bio fuel and other alternitives will remove ROI from the enslavement and clutches of the oil barons who probably own the ROI gaff anyway

Forget Obama doing anything as the oil companies opwn the USA gaff so he will fiddle and talk as more oil takes over the USA and everybody there goes back to gas gusselers

Its looks like only germany will have electric solutions so if your a wanne be green type might as well feck off to there as the regime here will pump oil down our gullets for the next hundred years as that where the kickbacks are

Derry

Tomk1 · 18-01-2009 12:20am

As regards to solar, wind and even N-power, this would have a huge impact, as these energy soures have no praticule way of storing undemanded energy. I am not sure on electric cars, but if a car is powered by laptop batteries, and after 2years those batteries are as much as usless, then other storage/generation needed.

probe · 24-05-2009 4:01pm

Zenn is ready to roll with electric cars powered by EEstor ultracapacitors. They are looking for partners to help deploy the technology around the globe.

http://cleantech.com/news/4494/zenn-ceo-speaks-about-eestor-progre

Toronto Star: http://www.thestar.com/business/article/638487

Unfortunately Zenn electric cars have a really crappy design appearance - they look like a third world vehicle :-( They need to involve one or more large European car manufacturers (eg VW/Audi, Mercedes-Benz, Peugeot-Citroen, Fiat, or BMW for example) to give the project serious global traction.

http://www.zenncars.com/

Capt'n Midnight · 24-05-2009 6:10pm

Tomk1 wrote: »

As regards to solar, wind and even N-power, this would have a huge impact, as these energy soures have no praticule way of storing undemanded energy. I am not sure on electric cars, but if a car is powered by laptop batteries, and after 2years those batteries are as much as usless, then other storage/generation needed.

as per my prev post, the main gains here are in the weight and number of charges, the cost is same as bulk lead acid and far higher than pumped storage or compressed air for gas turbine feed

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

52KWhr/$2,100
25Whr per dollar is good if it can be done. This would translate into car batteries for twenty notes excluding the economy of scale. So in the ball park of current lead acid prices.

Capt'n Midnight · 24-05-2009 6:30pm

http://www.zenncars.com/html/learn/FAQ/how_does_it_work/index.html

What type of battery powers the vehicle?
The ZENN is powered by a set of 6 heavy-duty lead-acid batteries. Each battery consists of a sealed, non-spill, zero-maintenance unit for worry-free, reliable service.
Will a partial recharge damage the battery?
No – in fact the batteries will recover 80% charge in just 4 hours. “Opportunity charging” – plugging in to top up the charge when an outlet is available - is encouraged.
What is the battery's average lifespan?
The average lifespan of the battery pack is 3 to 5 years, depending on the use of the vehicle.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lead-acid_battery

Lead-acid batteries, invented in 1859 by French physicist Gaston Planté, are the oldest type of rechargeable battery. Despite having the second lowest energy-to-weight ratio (next to the nickel-iron battery) and a correspondingly low energy-to-volume ratio, their ability to supply high surge currents means that the cells maintain a relatively large power-to-weight ratio. These features, along with their low cost, make them attractive for use in motor vehicles to provide the high current required by automobile starter motors.

note the lowest energy density is nickel iron, "invented" by Edison because the nickel cadmium was already in use and patented by others.

probe · 24-05-2009 10:07pm

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

http://www.zenncars.com/html/learn/FAQ/how_does_it_work/index.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lead-acid_batterynote the lowest energy density is nickel iron, "invented" by Edison because the nickel cadmium was already in use and patented by others.

Zenn is a really old fashioned, third world, lead acid battery type company. But they have this deal going with EEstor (Zenn is a listed company, EEstor is not and aside from Zenn EEstor is depending on venture capital vultures to fund them - eg Kleiner Perkins - http://www.kpcb.com)

Methinks the ultracapacitor might become a deal changing technology real soon. If/when the product is at a deliverable stage, VW/Porsche, Merc, BMW, and others will be in a position to throw mindblowing amounts of €€€ at the technology. Most of them have battery powered or H2 cars in the pipeline for 2010/11. It is a simple job to swap an ultracapacitor in place of the battery or fuel cell to power the same vehicle. Germany is the largest renewable energy producing country in Europe. Most of the infrastructure is already in place.

Vorsprung durch Technik.

derry · 25-05-2009 12:45pm

probe wrote: »

Zenn is a really old fashioned, third world, lead acid battery type company.
<snip>
Germany is the largest renewable energy producing country in Europe. Most of the infrastructure is already in place.

Vorsprung durch Technik.

I still don't see enough proof the Ultra capacitor can take the harsh regime of a car on roads with potholes

Every day we see proof the Bildeberg organization who own most of the world are hell bent to make this economic crisis last years and be extremely deep as they consolidate their world wealth and introduce a fascist USA and EU regime on us happle slaves.
So I suspect this ultra capacitor project will wither and die in this economic storm as half the car companies go belly up

Derry

djpbarry · 25-05-2009 6:48pm

derry wrote: »

Every day we see proof the Bildeberg organization who own most of the world are hell bent to make this economic crisis last years and be extremely deep as they consolidate their world wealth and introduce a fascist USA and EU regime on us happle slaves.

Save it for the CT forum.

probe · 25-05-2009 7:16pm

derry wrote: »

So I suspect this ultra capacitor project will wither and die in this economic storm as half the car companies go belly up

While much of the global economy is in a mess at the moment, the price of oil is rising - despite a reduced demand. When major economies show signs of recovery, chances are the oil price will rise even more dramatically.

The car companies with an electric solution will prosper.

Most of the manufacturers at the SUV/Hummer end of the market will probably go out of business.... Good riddance!

http://www.nymex.com

derry · 28-06-2009 11:28pm

probe wrote: »

While much of the global economy is in a mess at the moment, the price of oil is rising - despite a reduced demand. When major economies show signs of recovery, chances are the oil price will rise even more dramatically.

The car companies with an electric solution will prosper.

Most of the manufacturers at the SUV/Hummer end of the market will probably go out of business.... Good riddance!

http://www.nymex.com

I wont assume any such thing as the end of the SUV or hummer will take place

My quess is that battery power or capassitor power or both will improve in
in power density and ranges very rapidly and will also experience a sharp drop in cost making the electric car option cheaper and better than a direct fuel burn IC version car.

Howevewre as the cars willl probably use 25% the cost of fossil fuel solutions as in a plug in to so the same milage will cost 25% the cost compared to a petrol deisel solution .
Then I then expect to see a return rapidly to larger cars and they will simply be electric SUV cars and electric Hummers cars as the fuel cost would be bugger all .As the running costs will be a lot less than petrol deisel versions I also expect a much bigger fleet of these larger cars on the road as more less well off people can afford to run those larger cars.

The only thing that will stop the rise of the petrol or electric version SUV and Hummers is other factors like much higher caar tax as larger cars use up more of the road resourses .However that is a political decision not a green issue to drive large cars of the road even if they are electric because politically society doesnt want big cars clogging up the road infrastructure.

It gonna be hard to fabricate a green agenda to make electric so called green SUV cars and electric Hummer cars owners give up the nice aspect of being a big car in a sea of small cars

Derry

Shiny · 29-06-2009 9:04am

derry wrote: »

Howevewre as the cars willl probably use 25% the cost of fossil fuel solutions as in a plug in to so the same milage will cost 25% the cost compared to a petrol deisel solution .

Are you talking about the cost of the vehicle or the cost of running
the vehicle?

I imagine it would cost quite a lot to charge a hummer every night! :eek:

probe · 01-07-2009 6:24pm

Thankfully the Hummer is a minority sport, and will remain so - even if the brand lasts through the recession. They are difficult to park in anything smaller than a jet hangar.

Sichuan Tengzhong Heavy Industrial Machinery seem to be the only serious bidder for Hummer at the moment, and the Chinese government is trying to block this on environmental grounds.

But we are back to square one in any event. An M50 bumper to bumper with electric cars crawling along in a bouchon/Stau at 10 km/h is just as inefficient from a transport perspective as a motorway clogged with internal combustion engine vehicles (leaving emissions to one side).

The only effective solution to urban transport is an integrated public transport system which caters for the majority of journeys. They can't even integrate the timetable system between bus, train, tram etc within the CIE group - not to mind delivering an integrated timetable for all public transport in the country - which is a given, norm in countries like Germany, Switzerland etc. CIE group have wasted millions on software for different incompatible, timetable systems covering the range of services it operates. An appalling waste of public money, and a great disservice to the travelling public.

If you look at the Swiss integrated door to door timetable on the web:

www.rail.ch

Put in a complicated journey involving buses, trains, changes of trains, trams, etc going from one of the country to the other (take account of the time of day you are trying this):

Cut and paste as your "From" starting point: Avenue Louis Casai 26, 1216
Cut and paste as your "to" destination: Mutschellenstrasse 21, 8038

(The start is near Geneva airport in Cointrin, and the end is in a Zurich suburb).

I've just put the street name, house number and postcode for the start and end of my journey. A 4 digit postcode is far easier to enter, particularly on a mobile phone compared with a long, unwieldy, non-standardized, Irish address, but you can throw anything in - name of town, point of interest, station or stop name - wherever you want to start and finish your journey.

There is a mobile phone version (lots of them customized for various phones) Windows mobile, psion, even the iPhone http://mct.sbb.ch/mct/en/reisezeit/mobiletools/iphone.htm

In the Swiss (and German and other systems) you can ask for schedules outside the country eg Genoa to Barcelona. But they don't cover IRL because CIE group does not provide the timetable in standard format into the Hafas database.

All the software that runs this (Germany uses the same software, as does Bus Eireann (sort of - but they made a mess of it), as do dozens of public transport operators in Europe is available off the shelf. And it is also available as a hosted service.

If CIE group can't be trusted in little things like delivering a timetable - why should the country continue to trust them to "run" the buses and trains ?

Britain dumped the company that made a mess of the London to Edinburgh rail service today. Perhaps it is time to give CIE group notice to quit too?

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124643383583378661.html

http://www.hafas.de/hafas_e/index.shtml

While it will take time to integrate and electrify Ireland's physical public transport infrastructure, there is no excuse for not having integrated the timetable and ticketing system many years ago.

Only Ireland can do this. Hummer won't do it. Electric Smart cars won't do it. Electric Mercs won't do it. Capacitors with infinite storage won't do it. 20,000 km of motorways won't do it.

The electric car is good for random journeys, carrying heavy shopping, and rural one off housing inhabitants getting to work etc. It is not a solution to Ireland's urban traffic problems.

boomshackala · 01-07-2009 7:19pm

derry wrote: »

I wont assume any such thing as the end of the SUV or hummer will take place

My quess is that battery power or capassitor power or both will improve in
in power density and ranges very rapidly and will also experience a sharp drop in cost making the electric car option cheaper and better than a direct fuel burn IC version car.

Howevewre as the cars willl probably use 25% the cost of fossil fuel solutions as in a plug in to so the same milage will cost 25% the cost compared to a petrol deisel solution .
Then I then expect to see a return rapidly to larger cars and they will simply be electric SUV cars and electric Hummers cars as the fuel cost would be bugger all .As the running costs will be a lot less than petrol deisel versions I also expect a much bigger fleet of these larger cars on the road as more less well off people can afford to run those larger cars.

The only thing that will stop the rise of the petrol or electric version SUV and Hummers is other factors like much higher caar tax as larger cars use up more of the road resourses .However that is a political decision not a green issue to drive large cars of the road even if they are electric because politically society doesnt want big cars clogging up the road infrastructure.

It gonna be hard to fabricate a green agenda to make electric so called green SUV cars and electric Hummer cars owners give up the nice aspect of being a big car in a sea of small cars

Derry

The problem with more weight is less range, and range is an issue. If light enough range is not a problem. This will be prohibitive for heavier vehicles. More weight requires more heavy batteries or capacitors which adds more weight again. This is the issue, not the cost of fuel. Also electricity is going to shoot up in cost too. The third consideration is less disposable income for everyone to spend, as more expensive energy lowers living standards and increases the relative cost of essentials like food, meaning less money to spend on electricity. A fourth consideration is aerodynamics. The more sleek the vehicle the bigger the range. This is because aerodynamic drag uses even more energy than that required to move the physical mass of the vehicle itself and increases in proportion to the square of speed. Its not possible to optimise SUV's for aerodynamics. A fifth consideration is the forthcoming swing in sentiment to frugality. Sentiment, swinging away from larger, more environmentally damaging vehicles itslel is limiting their use

Capt'n Midnight · 01-07-2009 10:58pm

Electric cars are great for stop/start

40 mile range should cover commutes.
We could use induction charging at traffic lights - use RFID etc. to

The limiting factor on electric cars are batteries. Light and low cost and

Here are some fuel cells that run on a low cost renewable fuel but I don't think you'd want them in your car.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5335635/

derry · 10-07-2009 12:40am

There at it already building a Hummer with Li-Ion batteries that gets40 miles to a cage and then runs on petrol engine when the electric is run out
So far estimates are 33 MPG up to 100MPG depending on what version story you want to swallow.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/30845961/ns/us_news-environment/

Even the lowwer figure of 33 mpg is double the petrol version which does 15mpg

Now if that is possible with the present solutions that exist and the new Li-Ion can recharge in less than 5 minutes then with extra ranges from superior Li_ion batteries we can assume that tthere will be electric Hummers and SUV that will return 100MPG equivalents while doing all the things like speed and range that the owners require

The weight argument and the non aerodynamic shapes wont matter to the owners of Electric SUV and Hummers when they get 100MPG equivalents even if petrol costs are quadruple what they are now the costs to run would still be half todays costs as electric cost are probaly alway going to be 1/4 the cost of petrol costs .
So it is all relitive .
The electric cars in todays technology need to be small and light due to the lack of suitable electric batteries .Once the suitable batteries are made big eneough with eneogh range and low cost then the size of the car isnt a factor
Not everybody is so keen on this green for the sake of green argument and when they can have an electric SUV or Hummer with 100 MPG equivalents they will opt to have that and I figure that is the majority I recon.

There does exist a small minority in society who want to see the death of the Hummer and SUV and all cars probably and we all must cycle everywhere and will use anything from oil peak to whatever to announce the death of these machines .

DEATH TO THE HUMMER AND SUV

Me I ant got anything like religious hate against super fuel efficient Hummers or SUV's in electric even I cant afford one of those things.

I personlly prefered life in Munich in Germany step from U-BANN wait a minute and connect with a tram ,step out wait a minute for the bus to arrive and you could set your watch every day with the service and get like 30 kilometers in no time .

Hummers and SUV clog up cities like Rome and Athens not built for those machines .
However in the USA where there are ten lane high ways and the car is King seems a bit rich for us in Europe to dicate they must use tiny fiat 500 cars for transport when if the solutions exist to transport people using a SUV and a lot less fuel is used .

I prefer when possible in good weather to cycle but that is to give me exersize and if it rains I use my car.

But I dont want to dicate no Hummers or SUVs as I am confident electric or new solutions will allow these machines to continue and get 100MPG equvalents .

Now if you want to talk about congestion charges to stop big cars electric or petrol that sounds like a subject for another thread called congestion charges will kill of the Hummer or SUV but that isnt a green issue is my guess its for the transport forum

Derry

boomshackala · 10-07-2009 10:59am

If you drive a hummer that has 100mpg, safe to day thats electrical equivalent. Problem is still range, dragged down by weight and aerodynamics. In the future if battery storage gets sorted thats fine, but unless I'm badly mistaken thats a long way off. If you have the scenario where electrical storage is not there and oil becomes really expensive (say 5 times current price), I can't see a scenario where the hummer can easily exist, and this is purely an economic argument. Then again I know there are lots of hummer owners who drive no more than 40 miles per day, but even they will have to buy a separate long range car if they want to do road trips, one of the key benefits of having an SUV in the first place!

bokspring71 · 12-07-2009 2:11pm

boomshackala wrote: »

If you drive a hummer that has 100mpg, safe to day thats electrical equivalent. Problem is still range, dragged down by weight and aerodynamics. In the future if battery storage gets sorted thats fine, but unless I'm badly mistaken thats a long way off. If you have the scenario where electrical storage is not there and oil becomes really expensive (say 5 times current price), I can't see a scenario where the hummer can easily exist, and this is purely an economic argument. Then again I know there are lots of hummer owners who drive no more than 40 miles per day, but even they will have to buy a separate long range car if they want to do road trips, one of the key benefits of having an SUV in the first place!

How do you hear/air condition the passenger compartment of a car powered by batteries? Where does the power/heat/cooling source come from?

New ultra capacitor could put the rechargeable battery out of business

Comments