Public Transport Improvements in Cork?

E92 · 18-10-2008 09:18PM #1

Well, has there been any since last May to those in Cork unfortunate enough to have to depend on BÉ for getting around the city?

The fact that this so called "Cork Development Plan" was announced just before a general election(the key word being before) and we're now in a recession leads me to believe that none of the stuff announced is actually going to happen. To be best of my knowledge, the only thing that's actually been done is the new route 10A, with it's *amazing*:rolleyes::rolleyes: 50 minute frequency AND Monday to Friday only service(yeah, because people don't go out at weekends at all:rolleyes:).

Or is the fact that the Greens are in Government going to mean that these improvements are actually going to happen and I need to be more patient?

Still though, considering that the development programme is for 2007-2009 and they've only done 1 thing(maybe they've done others, and if so it would be greatfully appreciated if somebody could tell me) out of the ~ 14 improvements they've talked about when we're around 2/3rds of the way through this "plan" suggests to me that all this stuff mentioned was nothing other than hot air and an attempt to buy an election.

BluntGuy · 18-10-2008 10:12PM

Well in response to the question of the thread...

Public Transport in Improvements in Cork?

No...

I've had the unparalleled "joy" of attempting to use the Ballincollig bus to Cork City centre on a regular basis.

Impossible...

I find it amazing how a service that runs so infrequently STILL manages not to follow the schedule.

Anyway, if I'm wrong, and there have indeed been amazing improvements in the public transport, I'd be only too glad to be enlighted...

invincibleirish · 18-10-2008 10:17PM

Still waiting for double deckers

Still waiting for Midleton line to re-open(and new stations on existing lines)

Still waiting for new P&Rs promised

Still waiting for buses later then 11pm

BanzaiBk · 18-10-2008 10:18PM

There's that new number 16 service to Rochestown as well.

The level of service, from drivers to management is simply deplorable. Why is there no city services until 10 on a Sunday? There was a shelter load of people waiting for the 5 and the 8 last Sunday morning, I expect the same tomorrow.

BluntGuy · 18-10-2008 10:21PM

invincibleirish wrote: »

Still waiting for double deckers

Still waiting for Midleton line to re-open(and new stations on existing lines)

Still waiting for new P&Rs promised

Still waiting for buses later then 11pm

They actually removed double-deckers from the city I've heard. I don't when, a few years back...

What unfathomable reason could they possibly have had for making that decision?

invincibleirish · 18-10-2008 10:34PM

BluntGuy wrote: »

They actually removed double-deckers from the city I've heard. I don't when, a few years back...

What unfathomable reason could they possibly have had for making that decision?

And promised new ones to be delivered sometime in 2008. I have not seem them yet.

E92 · 18-10-2008 11:20PM

BluntGuy wrote: »

They actually removed double-deckers from the city I've heard. I don't when, a few years back...

What unfathomable reason could they possibly have had for making that decision?

Only Bus Éireann would do something as idotic as getting rid of the double deckers, and the proof of the idocity is the fact they're bringing them back, (though they should never have gotten rid of them in the first place) but I won't believe it until I see it myself.

And yes there definately *were* double deckers before, because I've gone on them, I think they actually went about 10 years ago(I don't remember but it does seem like quite a while since I last saw one or was on one), either way they did have them and now they don't.

Typewriter · 18-10-2008 11:23PM

Photos of D-Decker buses in cork from 1990...

http://www.dublinbuses.com/wity1990jm/WITY90%20010.jpg

http://www.dublinbuses.com/wity1990jm/WITY90%20011.jpg

http://www.dublinbuses.com/wity1990jm/WITY90%20012.jpg

corktina · 18-10-2008 11:34PM

all double decks do is carry more people enabling a less frequent service....they also load slower and thus journeys take longer.....whats needed is more frequent lower density vehicles.... such as volvo VWL's///oh wait, thats what we have now....just need more of them now...

parsi · 18-10-2008 11:42PM

In fairness they extended the 10 to Mahon Point, added the 10A (which seems reasonably busy) and brought in the 16 to go up Carrs Hill (very popular and much welcomed by all accounts).

The 10/10A must be a curse for them as the bloody Mahon Point traffic is heavy and often unpredictable.

Double-deckers are a bit of a waste - they carry much the same number of people but take way longer to load.Plus upstairs becomes skangerland...

Typewriter · 18-10-2008 11:54PM

corktina wrote: »

oh wait, thats what we have now....just need more of them now...

I totally disagree, the amount of times the No.2 bus had passed me by because it's been too full.

I remember when i went to Ashton School (blackrock rd) we would get out of school at 4pm and the no.2 would repeatedly pass us by totally full until about 5:15 (No.2 is every 15mins) and even then we would be standing by the bus driver and have to get off and on the bus when it stopped to let sombody off.

And this happened every day for all my school years! God only knows what it's like now. (I live in Waterford)

Cork needs D-deckers to cope with the demand that's there!

BluntGuy · 19-10-2008 12:03AM

green_jesus wrote: »

Cork needs D-deckers to cope with the demand that's there!

Too true!

Besides, the old ones didn't look too bad. They seemed to be in pretty decent nick. All they needed to do was carry out some maintainence every now and again and update the livery to the newer design. Perhaps some were outdated, in that case, that's fine. But I am perfectly sure that there was no need to get rid of ALL them, especially with the population growing.

parsi · 19-10-2008 12:16AM

green_jesus wrote: »

I totally disagree, the amount of times the No.2 bus had passed me by because it's been too full.
Cork needs D-deckers to cope with the demand that's there!

Double deckers hold the same number of people and just have more seated than on single decks.

From what I see of the NO.2 there is overcrowding but theres also a load of folk who couldn't be bothered moving down the bus to make room. I've seen drivers blue in the face from asking folk to push back but no they insist on standing right at the front and to hell with others...

1huge1 · 19-10-2008 12:26AM

green_jesus wrote: »

Photos of D-Decker buses in cork from 1990...

http://www.dublinbuses.com/wity1990jm/WITY90%20010.jpg

http://www.dublinbuses.com/wity1990jm/WITY90%20011.jpg

http://www.dublinbuses.com/wity1990jm/WITY90%20012.jpg

Thats the 90's wow, I guess the concept of keeping a up to date fleet is a new thing.
I've become accustomed to fairly new buses.

Typewriter · 19-10-2008 12:31AM

parsi wrote: »

Double deckers hold the same number of people and just have more seated than on single decks.

What buses are you getting? You can fit way more people on a double decker than a single deck. Please show me some facts & figures?
And who wants to be standing anyway?

parsi wrote: »

From what I see of the NO.2 there is overcrowding but theres also a load of folk who couldn't be bothered moving down the bus to make room. I've seen drivers blue in the face from asking folk to push back but no they insist on standing right at the front and to hell with others...

I've been practically sitting on peoples laps on that bus and people not pushing back is not the issue.

EurasiaEndtoEnd · 19-10-2008 01:43AM

I lived in Cork for 10 months during 2005 and the bus service had not changed in any substantial way from how it had been when I was a kid growing up there until 1985.
1. Schedules are often not adhered to. Buses often pass early (for the convenience of the drivers).
2. Still only one door so loading/unloading is painfully slow. Actually a lot of double deckers in the 1970's had two doors and the back doors WERE used SOMETIMES !!
3. Still no 11 for the price of 10 ticket books, still drivers handling money.

Some suggestions :
1. Get rid of money on buses. Pay with paper-strip tickets, passes or stored value cards.
2. Innovate with new routes. Run express services to Ballincollig via SRR. Local service can use Model Farm Rd.
3. Drastically increase the frequency of service. PT is not a money making service anyway, so if they are going to lose money, might as well have a good service.
4. Separate Cork Bus from BE so that more local input into new routes etc. could be tried out.
5. Run proper frequent services to the outlying suburbs and expand the city boundaries as well while they are at it. Cork is not 120,000 plus bits .... it has a population of almost 250,000 in the general vicinity of the city centre. PT should reflect the fact.

BluntGuy · 19-10-2008 02:32AM

Unfortunately, I do not see things changing for the better in the immediate future. Unless a seperate Cork bus company is branched of from BE, nothing will be improved. Cork City will simply get its allotment of buses from the company and will continue to run the same stale, low-frequency, badly-thought out service it continues to run today.

If they're really desperate to save money, instead of printing out irrelevant schedules, they can say a bit o' ink and replace the schedule times with 'WHENEVER THE DRIVER FEELS LIKE TURNING UP'. Much more accurate, and much more useful than the current schedule which seems to list a bunch of times picked out of a hat that a bus MAY arrive.

A five to ten minute difference on each side of the expected arrival time is acceptable enough. A thirty-five minute difference (as I regularly encountered) is not.

corktina · 19-10-2008 10:45AM

green_jesus wrote: »

I totally disagree, the amount of times the No.2 bus had passed me by because it's been too full.

I remember when i went to Ashton School (blackrock rd) we would get out of school at 4pm and the no.2 would repeatedly pass us by totally full until about 5:15 (No.2 is every 15mins) and even then we would be standing by the bus driver and have to get off and on the bus when it stopped to let sombody off.

And this happened every day for all my school years! God only knows what it's like now. (I live in Waterford)

Cork needs D-deckers to cope with the demand that's there!

so wht you need is more buses then....? say 10 minute headway at peak hours....double decks will not solve the problems you point out as they will be twice as slow to load.

Calina · 19-10-2008 11:06AM

I live in Dublin. We have double deckers. I hate them. They are quick to get damp and smelly, people stand in the stairs, and occasionally do drug deals upstairs. And smoke in defiance of the law.

I lived in Paris/Brussels/Munich. They didn't have double deckers but they had effective schedules for their single deckers which loaded and emptied much more effectively because people could and did use both doors because for the most part they had pre-paid tickets. The number of people who had to buy tickets at each stop was negligible. Because comparatively speaking, there's no real economic benefit in pre-buying tickets in either Cork or Dublin, whether you have double or single deckers buses, dwell time is going to be an issue. In Dublin for the most part there is now only one door in and one door off on the new double deckers. This adds to time at the bus stops. Compared to Dublin, however, I think the spacing of bus stops in Cork is a little better - in Dublin there's one every two minutes walk; I think for the most part in Cork they're better spaced.

I think you will also find that Bus Eireann can't add and remove bus services at a whim, but that it needs to go through the Department of Transport for approval for licences to operate routes, this is on the assumption that the same rules apply to Cork as to Dublin, I would be stunned if they did not.

If you're unhappy with the supply of public transport in Cork - and I assume you are although my experience has generally been that it's more reliable than the fiasco that is Dublin (possibly because it's a smaller city and certainly the routes I use which are the 6 and 7 for the most part are less likely to get cluttered in traffic) - you need to annoy your public representatives about this. I appreciate that for the time being, their minds are concentrated on medical cards but...you have at least one high profile Green down there and a handful of other FF TDs. Tell them you are unhappy and point out the environmental benefits of a viable and reliable public transport system. POint out that other cities of a similar size (and smaller) in Europe have more effective systems which serve the cities well.

I don't know if it was ever done, but there was, about 6 or 7 years ago, some discussion about putting in place an authority to assess public transport needs for Cork, and one also for Limerick or Galway. I don't remember which. At the time, there were a lot of arguments about who should people that authority - Bus Eireann and CIE took the view that they had years of experience providing transport to Cork and should be included, and I believe - although it's in the mists of my memory - that Cork Corporation and Cork County Council were not in agreement with this but that they should be involved as they knew more about the demographics of the area and where services were needed and more specifically where they were lacking.

BluntGuy · 19-10-2008 11:51AM

Well it seems they've got a choice to make...

Either introduce Double-deckers to sort out the capacity issues with the current schedule...

OR

Introduce many new single-deckers at a much more regular frequency.

I'd actually recommend a mixture of the two, with double-deckers being used on higher-frequency routes at peak times with single-deckers making up the rest of schedule.

And I'm afraid the argument that double-deckers are slower doesn't really apply in this case because:

(a) There are hardly any QBCs in Cork so the buses go slowly anyway...

(b) In many cases the issues is CAPACITY, rather than FREQUENCY. You'd need two single-decker buses to provide the capacity of a double-decker. And in a small city like Cork, I'd rather have one double-decker bus than two single-deckers clogging up the streets.

On the other hand though, you might argue that if they were to increase the frequency of services, then capacity wouldn't be such an issue as they'd be less people crowding onto one service.

I don't really mind which way people look at it as long as they recognise that there's a problem that needs to be fixed.

bazzer · 19-10-2008 11:56AM

Your prayers (at least some of them) may be answered. Check out this thread over on Garaiste.

BluntGuy · 19-10-2008 12:04PM

bazzer wrote: »

Your prayers (at least some of them) may be answered. Check out this thread over on Garaiste.

Hmm... if that does indeed go ahead then it's certainly good news.

Hopefully they'll use the plan I mentioned in my previous post to make out more effective scheduling...

corktina · 19-10-2008 12:04PM

BluntGuy wrote: »

Well it seems they've got a choice to make...

Either introduce Double-deckers to sort out the capacity issues with the current schedule...

OR

Introduce many new single-deckers at a much more regular frequency.

I'd actually recommend a mixture of the two, with double-deckers being used on higher-frequency routes at peak times with single-deckers making up the rest of schedule.

And I'm afraid the argument that double-deckers are slower doesn't really apply in this case because:

(a) There are hardly any QBCs in Cork so the buses go slowly anyway...

(b) In many cases the issues is CAPACITY, rather than FREQUENCY. You'd need two single-decker buses to provide the capacity of a double-decker. And in a small city like Cork, I'd rather have one double-decker bus than two single-deckers clogging up the streets.

On the other hand though, you might argue that if they were to increase the frequency of services, then capacity wouldn't be such an issue as they'd be less people crowding onto one service.

I don't really mind which way people look at it as long as they recognise that there's a problem that needs to be fixed.

the point is you will need extra vehicles to maintain the same headway with 'deckers as they are slower to load and therefore journey times will be greater.... better to have those extras as single deckers and have a decreased headway (with a similar capacity as the existing headway with 'deckers...)

Calina · 19-10-2008 12:32PM

BluntGuy wrote: »

Well it seems they've got a choice to make...

Either introduce Double-deckers to sort out the capacity issues with the current schedule...

OR

Introduce many new single-deckers at a much more regular frequency.

I'd actually recommend a mixture of the two, with double-deckers being used on higher-frequency routes at peak times with single-deckers making up the rest of schedule.

And I'm afraid the argument that double-deckers are slower doesn't really apply in this case because:

(a) There are hardly any QBCs in Cork so the buses go slowly anyway...

(b) In many cases the issues is CAPACITY, rather than FREQUENCY. You'd need two single-decker buses to provide the capacity of a double-decker. And in a small city like Cork, I'd rather have one double-decker bus than two single-deckers clogging up the streets.

On the other hand though, you might argue that if they were to increase the frequency of services, then capacity wouldn't be such an issue as they'd be less people crowding onto one service.

I don't really mind which way people look at it as long as they recognise that there's a problem that needs to be fixed.

One of the key issues for a lot of public transport users is frequency. I'd prefer a single decker every 10 minutes than a double decker every 20. It's more user friendly and you will also more likely spread the crowds leading to slightly reduced dwell times at the stop. It is the dwell time for double deckers which is at the root of arguments about double deckers being slow; not their speed along the roads per se; for the most part they are capable of 50kp which is the speed limit in most urban areas, and they are capable of 60kph which for those stretches where it is permitted.

E92 · 19-10-2008 11:24PM

bazzer wrote: »

Your prayers (at least some of them) may be answered. Check out this thread over on Garaiste.

Didn't realise some people had such erm weird interests:):P!

But good to know we're getting 10 double deckers anyway.

I think anyone who criticises double deckers for making journey times longer is just plain wrong.

It's a good year since I've used buses in Cork, because I live in county Cork these days although still quite near to the southside of the city and as I'm still in Cork on a regular basis I can see that things haven't changed since I did use them, but anyone who has used them will know that even outside the morning and evening rush hour you're often left standing on the bus.

If there's a fair few people standing(and that happens a lot of the time) it takes people ages to get in and out of the bus as they have to get past the people standing on the bus. If they were in a double decker then these standing people would be seated and hence anyone who wants to get on or off can quickly do so without having to get through all the other standing people.

Often during the morning and evening peaks you will see the buses packed to the hilt.

Now I don't know how many extra people a double decker bus carries over a single decker bus, but even if they only carry a small number more of single deckers you'd have almost everyone on a single decker bus now seated on a double decker bus, so at least then when people want to get on or off, they can do it nicely and quickly, because there won't be legions of people that you've to barge your way through to get on or off.

This happened almost *all the time* in the evenings when I'd get the bus.

Anyway when they do finally return, we'll see who is right:)!

Aquavid · 19-10-2008 11:41PM

At the peak of CIE "provincial" double-deck usage in the 1970s, there were 120 based outside of Dublin, of which approx 92 were based in Cork, about 15 in Limerick, about 8 in Galway, and 5 in Waterford.

In Cork double-decks were in use on all but a couple of city routes, and also on longer distance services to Fermoy, Middleton, Ballycotton, Youghal, Crosshaven/Fountainstown, Ringaskiddy, Blarney etc.

In the mid 80s double-decks were removed from most services, with the 8 and the Blarney and Crosshaven services retaining them. Ballincollig gained them for the first time, as it had started to grow.

In the mid 90s the double-decks were removed totally.

It's worth noting that when single-decks replaced double-decks on the 8, there was no change in times or frequency, just fewer seats and more people left behind.

Cork is about to get 18 double-decks over the next couple of months:

10 x city double-decks, probably for the 8.

8 x high spec triaxle double-deck coaches, for longer distance services. (from an order of 32, the rest of which will be based in Dublin).

The first of the city double-decks is ready for delivery and should appear any day now - the high spec double-deck coaches are already being delivered, and the first has entered service on Dublin-Granard

Aquavid

John R · 20-10-2008 12:54AM

Calina wrote: »

I live in Dublin. We have double deckers. I hate them. They are quick to get damp and smelly, people stand in the stairs, and occasionally do drug deals upstairs. And smoke in defiance of the law.

The damp and smelly double deckers are that way because of poor window seals on that particular built that was not repaired or rectified through the life of that type of bus for reasons unknown. The newer low-floor models have not had this problem and are no more prone to water ingress and damp smells than any other bus single or double of a similar specification.

The anti-social activities you mention are not unique to double decker buses either although the perceived lack of supervision does make the scumbags more likely to act up on the top deck, it is not uncommon for smoking and worse to happen on single deckers in Dublin, this is a social problem not a bus design problem.

corktina · 20-10-2008 07:32AM

E92 wrote: »

Didn't realise some people had such erm weird interests:):P!

But good to know we're getting 10 double deckers anyway.

I think anyone who criticises double deckers for making journey times longer is just plain wrong.

It's a good year since I've used buses in Cork, because I live in county Cork these days although still quite near to the southside of the city and as I'm still in Cork on a regular basis I can see that things haven't changed since I did use them, but anyone who has used them will know that even outside the morning and evening rush hour you're often left standing on the bus.

If there's a fair few people standing(and that happens a lot of the time) it takes people ages to get in and out of the bus as they have to get past the people standing on the bus. If they were in a double decker then these standing people would be seated and hence anyone who wants to get on or off can quickly do so without having to get through all the other standing people.

Often during the morning and evening peaks you will see the buses packed to the hilt.

Now I don't know how many extra people a double decker bus carries over a single decker bus, but even if they only carry a small number more of single deckers you'd have almost everyone on a single decker bus now seated on a double decker bus, so at least then when people want to get on or off, they can do it nicely and quickly, because there won't be legions of people that you've to barge your way through to get on or off.

This happened almost *all the time* in the evenings when I'd get the bus.

Anyway when they do finally return, we'll see who is right:)!

isnt it kind of obvious that it will take longer to get MORE people off and then on to a double decker and therefore journey times will increase?

( They are using a Park and Ride 'decker' on some CIT journeys now where it is justified.....)

KC61 · 20-10-2008 08:38AM

If you read the original press release again, you'll see that the programme of improvements for Cork, and indeed Limerick, Waterford and Galway is to be phased in over the period 2007 - 2009. The problem is that when public transport improvements are announced, people tend to forget about the period over which the improvements are to take place.

Some of the improvements in Cork have happened:
New buses (for both city and suburban services) have been delivered
Route 10A and 16 have been launched

There are 10 brand new city double decks in build at the moment for Cork City services, the first of which is almost complete, and there are more high specification double decks for the suburban outlying services actually being delivered at the moment. The first of these new double decks has gone into service in Dublin on the Athboy and Trim route, but I would imagine that it won't be too long before the Cork batch enter service as well.

invincibleirish · 20-10-2008 07:02PM

It's great to see that double deckers are being introduced on routes in Cork, as well as the establishment of several new routes over the past while.

however with regards BE in Cork there are still two major issues:

Firstly the work of fiction that is BE timetables, as mentioned already this is a major problem, and its hardly a perception issue either. even with peoples tendency to exaggerate its clear in my own experience of using BE and others that across all routes and times of day buses simply arent showing up when or anywhere near the time they are supposed to.

Secondly lack of buses after 11pm. I emailed BE a few months ago enquiring about night services. The short reply back was that night services were tried a few years ago, judged that there was not sufficient demand and withdrawn. DB has its Nitelinks, and BE has Nightrider services connecting outlying towns to Dublin and also operates Nightriders in Galway, Sligo & Donegal, yet apparently there is not a single route in Metropolitan Cork(pop.>250k) bar Bandon & Camden which is deserving of late night services. I find this difficult to fathom.

Trains? Midleton should be open by now, so should new stations along the Mallow line. They are not, however considering economic circumstances we in Cork should be thankful that after 20+ years of good planning on behalf of Corks councils, a 13km line will be re-opened eventually.although seeing the WRC being re-opened really makes one think of ones priorities, why take time and effort in planning when all you need is a vocal priest and a persecution complex?.

The HR problems are an issue in Irish Rail in Cork, look at the farce several weeks ago surrounding the will they/wont they close the Cobh line for 6 weeks. it was on, then it was off, then it was on again, now as afaik its off again.

I think its clear that overall the CIE companies view Cork as not a priority(around the web there are various murmurings of what John Lynchs REAL viewpoint is on all things Cork), which is fair enough, IR & BE have a lot on their plate to deal with, particularly with the GDA. But public transport in this City is a terrible joke. I'd go along with the establishment of a Cork Transport Authority, even if it is as toothless as a paper tiger when it comes to actually implementing policy, i am not in favour of privatisation, but anything is better then what the city has currently to put up with.

E92 · 20-10-2008 10:50PM

Aquavid wrote: »

It's worth noting that when single-decks replaced double-decks on the 8, there was no change in times or frequency, just fewer seats and more people left behind.

And there you have it in a nutshell why we need them back, and back fast.

The amount of people waiting for a bus on the Western Road never fails to amaze me(especially on Fridays), and I've seen the number 8 not stop at stops on the Western Road presumably because the single decker buses are so full they can't accomodate any more.

We don't have an infinite amount of money such that we can have buses running every 3 or 4 minutes, and in these economically tight times we definately can't afford this, so double deckers will be able to carry more people, allow a lot more people to sit and therefore make public transport more attractive and therefore get people out of their cars at minimal cost.

Public Transport Improvements in Cork?

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