Can you be sacked for try to kill yourself

Zzz jazzy · 27-05-2015 7:28pm #1

Hi Guys

Can anyone help me with this?
A friend of mine has been having a very hard time in work the past 8 months.
His manager doesn't want him working with the company,he has been off with depression for 3 months and felt ok so returned to work.(still on anti depressions andslleping tablets)
He has been back in work for 4 months but it is still the same with the manager.
He put in a complaint with HR he had 16 different issues,but the company did not uphold anything!
The company advised some mediation but this was never organised.
Last week he felt it was all too much and tried to hang himself and took tablets!
He is ok now,his partner got to him just in time!
My question is,he is now out with depression again can his employer sack him because of this?
He has worked in his role for 7 years,this manager only took over 12 months ago!
He never had a problem with depression until this manager took over his department.

Edgarfrndly · 27-05-2015 7:32pm

You'll have to wait a qualified expert to answer, but in the meantime - you could look at the Unfair Dismissals Act to see what grounds are valid for termination of a contract, with respect to being on medical leave: http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1977/en/act/pub/0010/sec0006.html#sec6

Zzz jazzy · 27-05-2015 7:46pm

cant find anything on this?

Zzz jazzy · 27-05-2015 7:49pm

cant find anything on this?

3DataModem · 27-05-2015 11:42pm

Contrary to popular belief, it IS possible to sack someone for exessive sick leave, even if certified by a doctor.

MarkAnthony · 27-05-2015 11:48pm

OP taking a look at this from the cold hard legal truth he's not fulfilling his contract therefore it's possible to terminate his employment. Depression and mental issues can cause all sorts of issues making trivial things seem worse, which may lead to complaints being raider to HR, 16 seems excessive - another reason why an employer may fell the employee is no longer fit for the role.

Looking at it from another angle, lets assume all 16 issue are completely genuine, there's no way that level of treatment is not having an effect on someone's mental health, get out, get out now.

If your friend feels they're being forced out speak to an employment solicitor but for their own well being get out of the situation, nothing is more important that one's health. Better to be broke and happy than dead.

Edit, it's a long, long road. First iteration first line anti depressants are going to take at least six weeks to kick in. There will then be some tinkering with doses and maybe a switch to another first line AD, not to mention then trying second line and the tinkering with those. Counselling and a referral to a shrink are also very, very useful. I wish your friend all the best.

Peregrinus · 28-05-2015 3:48am

From what you say, for his own health and welfare he needs to get out. He should not wait to be fired.

He may have a claim for constructive dismissal, if his depression is due to bullying and victimisation by a manager who does not want him working at the company.

Zzz jazzy · 28-05-2015 9:43am

3DataModem wrote: »

Contrary to popular belief, it IS possible to sack someone for exessive sick leave, even if certified by a doctor.

Even though he has never got a warning for being sick?

foggy_lad · 28-05-2015 9:47am

Zzz jazzy wrote: »

Even though he has never got a warning for being sick?

You mentioned complaints made to HR, were these complaints from the manager about your friend or from your friend abou tthe manager and working environment?

Also just on the basics of it, any contract I have ever signed had a clause about my employment being terminated if I attempted suicide. I assumed this was to negate any future risk to myself in the job and also to protect other staff from someone who might attempt suicide in the workplace.

Miaireland · 28-05-2015 9:52am

I am not a legal expert but as far as I know you can if you go over your allowed amount of sick days (the amount your are allowed should be stated in your contract). I think that if you go over this amount they can claim that you are unfit to do your job anymore.

seamus · 28-05-2015 10:05am

Miaireland wrote: »

I am not a legal expert but as far as I know you can if you go over your allowed amount of sick days (the amount your are allowed should be stated in your contract). I think that if you go over this amount they can claim that you are unfit to do your job anymore.

No, there's no hard and fast "maximum sick day" allowance in most jobs.

It would be up to the company to determine whether the person's sickness made them incapable of doing their job.

What that means can vary. It might mean that someone who's out sick for a whole month can be dismissed, or that someone who misses one day a week could be dismissed. Because jobs vary, the definition of being "unfit" for work too varies.

OP, in effect your friend has two issues:

1. Stay where he is, continue to make complaints and fight.
2. Leave

Realistically it would seem to me that option number 1 is going to lead to a worsening of his condition, more and more sick leave, and the logical end is that the company are going to let him go, and he will have no comeback.

Option number 2 means he has to go looking for another job, but he gets out of the situation that's destroying his mental health, and has the potential to chase for constructive dismissal.

I would strongly recommend he talks to an employment law specialist, as soon as possible.

Also just on the basics of it, any contract I have ever signed had a clause about my employment being terminated if I attempted suicide. I assumed this was to negate any future risk to myself in the job and also to protect other staff from someone who might attempt suicide in the workplace.

WHAT?! I've never heard of that, it sounds absolutely moronic. "I better not kill myself; I might lose my job".

Greenmachine · 28-05-2015 10:14am

I know in one job I was in, a lady I worked with went on long-term sick leave, shortly after returning from sick leave. The company had a very generous sick leave package. As time went on, it became more and more obvious, that she was not going to return. It was a long process, but eventually she was let go. Is your friend a member of a union, it might be worth speaking to them if he is. Citizens information should also have information on employment legislation. It would be useful to know if your friend was being victimised in the workplace and the nature of the complaints. Were they minor or serious.

Mr. Incognito · 28-05-2015 10:28am

If you are unable to perform your role then yes, even on certified sick leave eventually you can be dismissed.

MrWalsh · 28-05-2015 10:34am

Mr. Incognito wrote: »

If you are unable to perform your role then yes, even on certified sick leave eventually you can be dismissed.

And rightly so IMO, a company cannot be expected to hold a role open indefinitely to cater for someones extended sick leave.

I have the greatest sympathy for the OPs friend but my advice would be to leave, no job is worth that level of depression. Bit cliched but - choose life!

punisher5112 · 28-05-2015 10:42am

What should be looked at is how this manager and company are allowed to treat someone like this.

I have a friend with a similar problem in their job where they do their work and work hard but were recently brought up to their manager and told they should leave and manager would be more then happy to accept their resignation.

Now how in this day and age can this be let happen.

It is a form of bullying and this sort of stress can and will kill.

Op very sorry to hear about your friend and I hope they accept help even just to talk to family or friends but would recommend a proper help if possible.

Be there for your friend if you can and try and help as best you can.
Hope they will get through this.

Zzz jazzy · 28-05-2015 12:34pm

foggy_lad wrote: »

You mentioned complaints made to HR, were these complaints from the manager about your friend or from your friend abou tthe manager and working environment?

Also just on the basics of it, any contract I have ever signed had a clause about my employment being terminated if I attempted suicide. I assumed this was to negate any future risk to myself in the job and also to protect other staff from someone who might attempt suicide in the workplace.

He took the complaint to the HR about his managers actions,shouting in his face,grinding his teeth,and ignoring him..he sounds like a horrible little man! My mate is still in a bad way..
HR just took the managers side! No support from the company

MarkAnthony · 28-05-2015 1:01pm

Zzz jazzy wrote: »

He took the complaint to the HR about his managers actions,shouting in his face,grinding his teeth,and ignoring him..he sounds like a horrible little man! My mate is still in a bad way..
HR just took the managers side! No support from the company

Get to an employment law solicitor. They're never as expensive as you think and good ones are miracle workers.

amen · 28-05-2015 1:49pm

Also just on the basics of it, any contract I have ever signed had a clause about my employment being terminated if I attempted suicide. I assumed this was to negate any future risk to myself in the job and also to protect other staff from someone who might attempt suicide in the workplace.

I'd love to see this contract. I'v never seen or heard of this in Ireland.

Would it even be legal ?

Happdog · 28-05-2015 2:09pm

There are some thoughts that an Irish employer could be held liable for the suicide of an employee:

http://www.morganmcmanussolicitors.com/blog/an-employers-liability-for-suicide/

Originally Posted by foggy_lad

Also just on the basics of it, any contract I have ever signed had a clause about my employment being terminated if I attempted suicide. I assumed this was to negate any future risk to myself in the job and also to protect other staff from someone who might attempt suicide in the workplace.

I find it hard to believe that an employment contract would have a clause dealing with suicide, what industry were you working in?

Zzz jazzy · 28-05-2015 2:44pm

Greenmachine wrote: »

I know in one job I was in, a lady I worked with went on long-term sick leave, shortly after returning from sick leave. The company had a very generous sick leave package. As time went on, it became more and more obvious, that she was not going to return. It was a long process, but eventually she was let go. Is your friend a member of a union, it might be worth speaking to them if he is. Citizens information should also have information on employment legislation. It would be useful to know if your friend was being victimised in the workplace and the nature of the complaints. Were they minor or serious.

They were serious enough,false accusations regarding being late,overlooked regarding overtime and just being nasty all the time..
He has never had depression before only since this manager took over.

Icepick · 28-05-2015 5:53pm

3DataModem wrote: »

Contrary to popular belief, it IS possible to sack someone for exessive sick leave, even if certified by a doctor.

of course it is but he can claim the job caused it in the first place

Icepick · 28-05-2015 5:57pm

punisher5112 wrote: »

What should be looked at is how this manager and company are allowed to treat someone like this.

I have a friend with a similar problem in their job where they do their work and work hard but were recently brought up to their manager and told they should leave and manager would be more then happy to accept their resignation.

Now how in this day and age can this be let happen.

It is a form of bullying and this sort of stress can and will kill.

We only know one side of the story. 16 rejected complaints may or may not be a coincidence.

Zzz jazzy · 28-05-2015 6:04pm

Icepick wrote: »

We only know one side of the story. 16 rejected complaints may or may not be a coincidence.

Let's be honest if the company upheld any of the complaints they would have to act on it,that's why they didn't up hold anything they want him gone as well,he is part of old staff.

Help!!!! · 28-05-2015 6:10pm

Zzz jazzy wrote: »

He took the complaint to the HR about his managers actions,shouting in his face,grinding his teeth,and ignoring him..he sounds like a horrible little man! My mate is still in a bad way..
HR just took the managers side! No support from the company

HR are not there for the employee, they are there to stop the company from getting sued
People waste their time thinking they will help you.

The_Minister · 06-06-2015 2:28pm

IIRC depression can count as a disability for the purposes of equality law.

Victor · 07-06-2015 3:17am

3DataModem wrote: »

Contrary to popular belief, it IS possible to sack someone for exessive sick leave, even if certified by a doctor.

An important factor in such a matter may be the cause of the sick leave.

Zambia · 07-06-2015 4:20am

Most employers have some sort of death benefit to relatives etc. It seems logical to void the contract should you decide to take your own life.

RainyDay · 08-06-2015 12:07pm

Zambia wrote: »

Most employers have some sort of death benefit to relatives etc. It seems logical to void the contract should you decide to take your own life.

Why would it seem logical to treat mental illnesses differently to cancer?

3DataModem · 06-07-2015 3:32pm

RainyDay wrote: »

Why would it seem logical to treat mental illnesses differently to cancer?

Vast vast majority of life assurance policies are void in the case of suicide.

EDITED: This is wrong. I was corrected below, my info was out of date.

RainyDay · 06-07-2015 3:35pm

3DataModem wrote: »

Vast vast majority of life assurance policies are void in the case of suicide.

Source please?

The last policy that I looked at had a 12-month exclusion period for suicide, presumably to deter anyone who rushed into taking out a policy while planning their own death, but did indeed pay out in a case of suicide.

3DataModem · 06-07-2015 3:42pm

RainyDay wrote: »

Source please?

The last policy that I looked at had a 12-month exclusion period for suicide, presumably to deter anyone who rushed into taking out a policy while planning their own death, but did indeed pay out in a case of suicide.

My mistake, thanks for the correction.

Last time I looked at this was a while back; now it seems that many policies - possibly most policies - have an exclusion period as you describe.

Fred Swanson · 06-07-2015 4:52pm

This post has been deleted.

BattleCorp · 07-07-2015 12:39pm

Removed because of my own stupidity.

:o:o

athtrasna · 07-07-2015 12:43pm

BattleCorp wrote: »

I find it totally unbelievable that a company would give advice regarding medication.

Only a doctor would be able to do this.

Mediation not medication!

stevenmu · 07-07-2015 8:55pm

I think it's safe to say that mediation would be to attempt to resolve an employees workplace grievances. It would not be in any way an attempt to treat a person for depression.

Del2005 · 07-07-2015 9:55pm

punisher5112 wrote: »

I have a friend with a similar problem in their job where they do their work and work hard but were recently brought up to their manager and told they should leave and manager would be more then happy to accept their resignation.

Now how in this day and age can this be let happen.

It is a form of bullying and this sort of stress can and will kill.

Can't really help the OP but I've met plenty of people in my company who "work hard" but don't do half the work that people who don't keep telling people they "work hard" do. Or the other group who even with the best training in the world and no matter how hard they work can't do the job correctly.

Can you be sacked for try to kill yourself

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