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Carburator sync/clean

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  • 04-01-2015 3:01pm
    #1
    Richard tea
    Registered Users Posts: 3,597 ✭✭✭


    Going to need the big guns for this one:p

    Firstly this images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQ6ixGVRr6FJiIFjdoFT1YeR3VY4q3ojhrQaKOi-nBjBawlfWRe3Q Is the tool I have for the job. It comes with two short brass tubes and two longer brass tubes.

    After taking the advice from CJ on the general chat thread its become apparent that the longer tubes will not fit between the carbs and engine.

    What I need to find out is can buying two more shorter brass tubes sort the problem or is there any other connections the brass tubes I have will fit in.

    Or..........Must I use all four brass tubes at the same time ( most likely )
    Any guides I have watched on youtube and so on, have the brass tubes coming off at an angle. Some guides show the brass tubes connected to the engine block and not the carbs.

    Ill post some pics to give a better idea. Ill also post 2 pics from the Russian translated manuals. Maybe some can shed some light on the situation.


«134

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    #2
    gctest50
    Registered Users Posts: 9,605 ✭✭✭gctest50


    STOP !
    the photo "Shorter brass tube.jpg"

    what it looks like you are thinking of doing is removing the idle air screws and trying to thread in the brass tubes

    different threads - you will ruin your carbs


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    #3
    Richard tea
    Registered Users Posts: 3,597 ✭✭✭Richard tea


    gctest50 wrote: »
    STOP !


    The one I circled in green.... Is this the vac connection?


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    #4
    gctest50
    Registered Users Posts: 9,605 ✭✭✭gctest50


    Richard tea wrote: »
    The one I circled in green.... Is this the vac connection?


    yip - the one circled in green is the vac connection


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    #5
    Richard tea
    Registered Users Posts: 3,597 ✭✭✭Richard tea


    Ok after a frantic search I think I found the solutions here http://www.400greybike.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=32&t=362:p

    No bother as ill need this thread when I go to strip and clean and enter the funny world of float bowls and pilot jets:P

    Thanks Gctest50


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    #6
    gctest50
    Registered Users Posts: 9,605 ✭✭✭gctest50


    those screws will probably be very tight - they're not actual "phillips" theyre jis or something - tiny tiny difference

    you'll get caught out if you're just using some screwdriver you found in the shed somewhere

    for some bizzare reason phillips were designed to slip


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    #7
    Richard tea
    Registered Users Posts: 3,597 ✭✭✭Richard tea


    gctest50 wrote: »
    those screws will probably be very tight - they're not actual "phillips" theyre jis or something - tiny tiny difference

    you'll get caught out if you're just using some screwdriver you found in the shed somewhere

    for some bizzare reason phillips were designed to slip


    well spotted https://www.google.ie/search?q=jis+screws&tbm=isch&imgil=wOJ2k0PZP1TL_M%253A%253BE7AjWySgVv1DtM%253Bhttp%25253A%25252F%25252Fwww.pentaxforums.com%25252Fforums%25252F114-maintenance-repair-articles%25252F119344-cross-head-screws-caution.html&source=iu&pf=m&fir=wOJ2k0PZP1TL_M%253A%252CE7AjWySgVv1DtM%252C_&usg=__Ab9aWzQsgfqjqe1q_w89zV5XMwE%3D&biw=1680&bih=915&ved=0CCsQyjc&ei=VVOpVMzrL43W7QbH3oCYDg#facrc=_&imgdii=_&imgrc=wOJ2k0PZP1TL_M%253A%3BE7AjWySgVv1DtM%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww.pentaxforums.com%252Fforums%252Fattachments%252Fpentax-slr-lens-discussion%252F73294d1287169479-stuck-aperture-ring-50-1-7-jis-sd-jpg%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww.pentaxforums.com%252Fforums%252F114-maintenance-repair-articles%252F119344-cross-head-screws-caution.html%3B475%3B254

    I think i have some


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    #8
    gctest50
    Registered Users Posts: 9,605 ✭✭✭gctest50


    you should be able to find new ones

    kinda like


    www.cmsnl.com/cbr400rg-nc23-japanese-domestic_model17062/screw-cross-5x10_93500050100a/

    http://www.cmsnl.com


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    #9
    Richard tea
    Registered Users Posts: 3,597 ✭✭✭Richard tea


    Ok I got it all set up fine. I wont attempt the job until I study up some more.


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    #10
    CJhaughey
    Registered Users Posts: 14,907 ✭✭✭✭CJhaughey


    I'd start by doing #1 and #2 Then #3 and #4
    Then #1 and # 4.
    You should blip it between adjustments as well.


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    #11
    gctest50
    Registered Users Posts: 9,605 ✭✭✭gctest50


    nudder thing .... if your carbs are hard to sort out - the little seals here n there might be gone off

    the rubber in them was meant for petrol with no ethanol or other stuff in it

    the ethanol "steals" something ( cant remember what tis ) from the rubber, then the little seals go hard, stop being rubbery and stop sealing


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    #12
    gctest50
    Registered Users Posts: 9,605 ✭✭✭gctest50


    this crew seem to has shares in Viton if you need seals

    32 euro ish kinda thing for a kit


    http://litetek.co/Carb_Kit_Honda_CB1_NC27.html

    https://twitter.com/litetek_sales

    maybe use an 02 debit card/paypal for stuff so far away if you do

    .


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    #13
    gctest50
    Registered Users Posts: 9,605 ✭✭✭gctest50


    carb diagram from there ( see attached )


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    #14
    gctest50
    Registered Users Posts: 9,605 ✭✭✭gctest50


    service manual for it from there maybe ?

    http://litetek.co/docs/Manual_Service_Honda_CB_400F_CB1.pdf


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    #15
    gctest50
    Registered Users Posts: 9,605 ✭✭✭gctest50


    more seals closer to home


    http://www.nrp-carbs.co.uk/


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    #16
    Richard tea
    Registered Users Posts: 3,597 ✭✭✭Richard tea


    Thanks GC. I came across that crowd before alright. No harm in having new seals in just in case I suppose.


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    #17
    hrcbob
    Registered Users Posts: 273 ✭✭hrcbob


    Doing carb sync is a god dam pain. MAKE SURE YOU FIGURE OUT WHICH ONE IS THE MASTER OR NON ADJUSTABLE CARB FIRST BEFORE ADJUSTING ANYTHING,.
    If you dont do this you will spend all day chasing your tail. A good guide is to see where the throtle cable is located in the bank of carbs .if in the centre the master will be one of the two centre carbs, (you will need to look carefully to see which one is directly operated by the cable and which has the adjuster on it) If the cable goes on the end carb of the bank then the one closest to the cable is the master,

    With the setup where the end carb is the master,(call it no.1 for this purpose) you must set no.2 first. then no.3 and finally no.4 as any adjustment on 2 will affect both 3 and 4 and will require you to adjust them again.

    Best of luck


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    #18
    Richard tea
    Registered Users Posts: 3,597 ✭✭✭Richard tea


    hrcbob wrote: »
    Doing carb sync is a god dam pain. MAKE SURE YOU FIGURE OUT WHICH ONE IS THE MASTER OR NON ADJUSTABLE CARB FIRST BEFORE ADJUSTING ANYTHING,.
    If you dont do this you will spend all day chasing your tail. A good guide is to see where the throtle cable is located in the bank of carbs .if in the centre the master will be one of the two centre carbs, (you will need to look carefully to see which one is directly operated by the cable and which has the adjuster on it) If the cable goes on the end carb of the bank then the one closest to the cable is the master,

    With the setup where the end carb is the master,(call it no.1 for this purpose) you must set no.2 first. then no.3 and finally no.4 as any adjustment on 2 will affect both 3 and 4 and will require you to adjust them again.

    Best of luck


    I get ya. Just when I think I understand the workings I watch another video and Im back to square one. It will prob be march before I start to commute on the bike again so I have time (when I fu*k up ) not IF:rolleyes:


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    #19
    Richard tea
    Registered Users Posts: 3,597 ✭✭✭Richard tea


    Anyone know if these remaining jets can be removed for cleaning? There are no screw heads to remove them and I dont want to twist or pull them in case I damage them.

    My my new seals arrived today so I hope to put them back together over the weekend:)


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    #20
    Hotblack Desiato
    Registered Users Posts: 34,508 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    Think the one at 7 o'clock is the needle valve seat. Leave it where it is unless it's blocked or worn out

    The one at 2 o'clock seems to dip down into the fuel so I'm thinking it's an extra jet with a valve controlled by the choke cable, pull the cable, valve opens = more fuel.

    No idea what the thing at 6 o'clock is. I'd leave both of these alone unless I was certain I knew what they were for and that there was a problem with them.

    Fingal County Council are certainly not competent to be making decisions about the most important piece of infrastructure on the island. They need to stick to badly designed cycle lanes and deciding on whether Mrs Murphy can have her kitchen extension.



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    #21
    CJhaughey
    Registered Users Posts: 14,907 ✭✭✭✭CJhaughey


    Don't remove any of those pieces, If you can get them ultrasonically cleaned then it is well worth doing, ultrasonic cleaning removes stuff inside that you can never get clean even with carb cleaner spray and compressed air.
    Also don't forget the Air screw at 12 O'clock, maybe record the turns in to seated and then record them so you can set them the same after cleaning.
    I got a cheap ultrasonic cleaner from Aldi for 20 odd euro, it did a lot of work but eventually blew and I haven't got the receipt.
    A good trick was to cut the top off a milk bottle and fill that with the cleaning solution and put the bottle into the little cleaner and top off with water.
    this allows bigger parts to be cleaned in a small cleaner.
    I may have a look at one of these ones next.


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    #22
    Richard tea
    Registered Users Posts: 3,597 ✭✭✭Richard tea


    Thanks lads. I wont remove them. Like I mentioned before, the carbs worked fine before removal so im not removing parts that are not necessary. Im sure the US cleaner is best but the insides were very clean to start with. Just hope I can put it back together.


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    #23
    Hotblack Desiato
    Registered Users Posts: 34,508 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    Check the float heights are correct before putting the float bowls back on, this should be the same across all the carbs to make them easier to balance, and any carb with the float height too low (= higher fuel level, you assemble the needle valves and floats with the carbs upside down and then check the height) will be more likely to flood

    Don't overtighten any screws as carb bodies are usually made out of magnesium and very easy to strip threads. Brittle too, you can easily crack a carb body or float bowl by dropping it.

    Fingal County Council are certainly not competent to be making decisions about the most important piece of infrastructure on the island. They need to stick to badly designed cycle lanes and deciding on whether Mrs Murphy can have her kitchen extension.



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    #24
    Richard tea
    Registered Users Posts: 3,597 ✭✭✭Richard tea


    Im just about ready to refit the carbs, maybe tue or wed. Im just wondering what to expect when I connect up the fuel again. How long should it take for fuel to work through the carbs again? I can imagine it will take a fair few attempts to start the engine?

    Whats the crack with valve shims clearance? I have read that when carbs are removed and cleaned you should check the valve shims clearance. I have a feeler gauge for this job but it seems complicated. Should I bother or just refit the carbs with fingers crossed? Dont forget the engine ran mostly fine before carb removal so my thinking is the shims should be ok:confused:

    Whilst im at it. I have found a K&N air filter that fits my bike. Its €50 though:eek:. Are they worth it?


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    #25
    Kevin McCloud
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,797 ✭✭✭Kevin McCloud


    Richard tea wrote: »
    I have read that when carbs are removed and cleaned you should check the valve shims clearance.

    I would not believe everything you read off the internet.


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    #26
    Hotblack Desiato
    Registered Users Posts: 34,508 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    Valve clearances change due to wear - nothing to do with the carbs.

    The K&N is worth it if the cost of the disposable filters you'll use over the length of time you expect to keep the bike is dearer - don't forget the K&N still needs to be cleaned and re-oiled at intervals and you need to factor in the cost of filter cleaner and filter oil

    If the K&N flows more air than the standard filter, your mixture will now be too weak and you'll need to re-jet the carbs. I really wouldn't bother. My bike came with a K&N from the previous owner, but it's fuel injected.

    Fingal County Council are certainly not competent to be making decisions about the most important piece of infrastructure on the island. They need to stick to badly designed cycle lanes and deciding on whether Mrs Murphy can have her kitchen extension.



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    #27
    Richard tea
    Registered Users Posts: 3,597 ✭✭✭Richard tea


    Christ almighty. Hardest part is refitting the carbs. So hard to get the carbs into the rubber boots. When you wedge one side the other miss aligns. So after a pint of blood spilt from cuts on my hands I finally got the fitted.

    Im not sure if I connected the throttle cables up right. The throttle return is not flicking back into place without physical help. Or I damaged the cable with a kink. Not too fussed about that one for now though as the main thing was to fire up the bike.

    After 5 attempts she started up. The Rev's slowly increased but it was very sluggish. Prehaps the system is just filling back up and the extra cold nights didnt help. Time was not on my side so I have to pack it in for the day. The main thing is she started. I can get to adjustments another day. I set the air screw mixture ( 4 of them ) to 2 3/8 turns out from seated. This type of info & spec is hard to track down. I didnt adjust the idle screw at all so I shouldn't need to go near this.


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    #28
    Richard tea
    Registered Users Posts: 3,597 ✭✭✭Richard tea


    Took ill last week so did SFA:o I rigged up the fueling system today and connected up the carb sync tool. I have the Idle screw nearly adjusted. On the carb sync tool all 4 gauges were just about the same. I think cylinder 3 was slightly off. Then the bike started to die. Im hoping its cause the battery has been sitting out in the cold for the last few nights and not been used. Ive stuck it on the trickle charger for now.

    Going to have to spend the evening doing more research as its trickier than I thought.


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    #29
    Richard tea
    Registered Users Posts: 3,597 ✭✭✭Richard tea


    Its amazing what you can do with bungie cords and a coal sack


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    #30
    Richard tea
    Registered Users Posts: 3,597 ✭✭✭Richard tea


    Think Im a little confused from reading conflicting suggestions on another site.

    I plan to tune the carbs in this order 1. adjust idle screw 2. adjust 4 air mix screws 3. Balance carbs. Is this the correct sequence?

    Should be finished with the frosty/ice nights by the end of the month. I really want to have the bike back up and running by then:eek:


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    #31
    Hotblack Desiato
    Registered Users Posts: 34,508 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    Balancing is the last thing you do because it's the only step where the settings of each carb affect the other. Ideally there will only be slight variation in throttle position to adjust out, if you've done everything else right up to that point.

    The other settings, idle screws etc. are from a fixed reference point and don't have an effect on each other in the way throttle position does.

    Fingal County Council are certainly not competent to be making decisions about the most important piece of infrastructure on the island. They need to stick to badly designed cycle lanes and deciding on whether Mrs Murphy can have her kitchen extension.



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