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WAN Ideas
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17-09-2001 5:10pm#1Hi,
I've been thinking a good bit about setting up a WAN in the Wexford area recently, and have come up with a few ideas, some of which may seem far fetched.
Does anyone know if any permission is needed to put a very small wireless base station on a hill or mountain? I've made a few plans in my head (nothing on paper) for a totally unattended base station. Basically it would consist of a normal base station (they sell for around £200 - 300), a car battery, and solar panel. The battery alone could keep it running for over 2 weeks I beleive without charging, and when there's sun, the solar panels would charge the battery and power the station. It would have a fairly small omnidirectional antenna, and if necessary, a directional antenna to link it to another base station, which would probably work for around 20miles. I'd expect reliable connections at 11mbit to work for approx 10 miles assuming the normal user has a directional antenna.
Assuming a basic backbone was established, and a few members came onto the network, the next task would be getting a connection to the net. In this area, Chorus won't have powernet till next year, and probably no adsl for a century, so the only decent net access it could have it through Beam, which at the moment is better value than €ircon's adsl (400k down, 128k up, no transfer limits, for £125/month and no phone needed). If friaco came out, one way satellite i.e. Satnode (300k approx) could be used to provide a connection (satnode is €40/month plus phone costs). If friaco does come out, then some kind of isdn setup could be used as a gateway for people wanting to play multiplayer games on the net. Of course if some ISP would sponsor it, and say give a leased line for free, then that would be a reliable and low ping solution.
For network services, I'd devote a server to it, probably running game servers for UT, Q3A, e.t.c. so that members could join it at any time, and also a local messaging service (can't remember the name but it's like icq, but for a 'private' network).
Speeds; currently 11MBit is the max speed of wireless networks, but there is a new standard being made, which will allow speeds above 50MBit.
If there was good interest, then numerous unattended base stations could be set up, and users on different stations would be able to communicate with each other via a dedicated 11MBit link, but would probably have little load, as I'd hope that each base station would have its own net connection somewhere.
I know none of this will happen unless there is sufficient interest; probably need 10 people interested, and within range of the first base station to make it worth while, and to make it affordable (each home setup would probably cost around £200 at a guess (sterling) ).
Brendan0
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I know that no license is needed, but was more concerned about the legality of just putting a small box, and antenna on top of a hill or mountain. The Blackstairs come to mind as a suitable site that'd cover some of wexford, kilkenny, and carlow.
I've had a WLAN going before with a friend using directional only antennas, and had no problems (around 13KM).0 -
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Lo all,
Brendan in rleation to your plan for setting up a WAN in Wexford maybe i can make some suggestions. Regarding you placing a WAN router on a hill in Wexford, you would first want to ascertain who the land belongs to. If it is privately owned then you can ask the permission of the owner if you want to place a router there. If it belongs to the Irish government then you can seek the permission of the local county council and Im pretty sure that there would be no objections. Just be careful that you put it somewhere where no lads can damage it coming home from the pub, or no animals will start to nest in it.
I think another great idea for setting up a WAN is if we setup routers on the roofs of schools, police stations, hospitals and other government and public buildings. In return we can give them free unmetered internet access. Our current and only internet infrastructure is under the control of a tyrannical company, so it makes sense to start up our own. Think about it people. Which would you rather have????
1: To pay Ericom for DSL, £90 a month ( remember a minimum 12 month contract!! thats at least £1080 ), and to pay them £150 or thereabouts for equipment fees, and then a further £99 for installation!, not to mention having to pay also for the regular phoneline rental. That adds up to IR1329 incl Vat, for a crippled internet service for one year!!!!
2: To pay around £300 or less for an 802.11b compliant wireless network card and a long distance antenna. You would also have to pay for a router ( you pay your share for this with other users ), and you would also have to pay for the intenret connection ( also you share this cost with other users ). The price for the two afformentioned items would vary according to the number of users on the WAN. Paying this cost would result in unmetered, high speed, always on internet access, for life!!
3: To continue to pay the average £100 internet phone bill that turns up on our doorstep monthly or bi-monthly to haunt us, dusgruntled that you will never get a good deal on internet access.
I know this has been talked about before, but if we play our cards right we can achieve this. I know esat have their mobile phone masts on police stations all over the country. In exchange for this, esat gave the Gardaí some communications equipment. If we could mount our routers on the national radio transmission poles, on 3 rock mountain in Dublin, on the Silvermines in Tipperary, on the McGillycuddy Reeks in co Kerry, on the Sperrin mountains in Co Tyrone, or even on the ESB power masts.
Think about how far we have come in our campaign. Are you willing to go a little further and surpirse everyone. As far as I know this will be the first ever undertaking of building a new infrastructure of this kind that the world has ever known.
Think about it. Seriously.
Thanks for reading if you got this far
Matt0 -
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Hi,
There can be problems regarding the positioning of routers. If they're mounted on the same mast as a high power mobile phone transmitter, or near it, they won't work (I'm sure we all know what happens when a low powered mobile phone is put near a badly shielded speaker; imagine the power from a mast). Also, the ESB high voltage lines can disrupt the signal, if it has to sortof pass through a few wires.
I have no idea who owns land on the Blackstairs...I guess it would be the government, but only guessing.
Putting base stations on schools could be a good idea, but remember wireless requires LOS, so putting a base station on a school in a hole won't be much good.
I estimate, provided the stations were in a direct line, and almost even distances from each other, that around UK£5000 once off would allow someone at Malin Head to send files at approx 11mbit to someone in the South. As an estimate, I'd say that maybe £100,000 would give countrywide coverage. Obviously we wouldn't be spending this kind of money though, but if every NoLimits customer who got kicked for 'overuse' invested their usual monthly fee into a WAN, we could probably get coverage in their area for a wan and have money left over for net access. Just an idea, but with some support, it could become reality.
Brendan0 -
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This topic is of great interest to me
I would love to start work on a Wireless WAN in my community...
I live in Goatstown, Dublin 14...
If there is anyone else near by please contact me
We could link the WANs together sooo easily in the cities then get a access to dedicated lines and link the cities... Costs could be covered by the shear numbers)) 0 -
Originally posted by bkehoe
hehe. 100mw (max legal output; from Compaq cards) is hardly a few hundred watts that come from a mobile phone mast
Not forgetting the square law w.r.t power & distance from the transmitter :-). Jaysus, brings me back to the good old days of CB radio.
Breaker 1 - 1 for a copy come on back.
greg0 -
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Yellum > if u have a proposal or plan drawn up for a cork wan could u send it to me? I know a few people (businessey types with money to spend) that have been looking to setup an ISP (of sorts) for a few years. I think this is the type of thing they would be likely to go for. What I'm mainly looking for is prices. position of masts isint important for the moment. we can work out the logistics after the finances are secured
If you could give me a rough estimate for coverage of city & a couple of suburbs for starters we may be able to get a trial going in the next few months. Cross your fingers 0 -
Oooooooh. Hehe.
Okay, I shall really get cracking now then. I'll start gathering equipment costs and everything else together while at work tomorrow. I wonder would an isp be up for helping us with this too ?
I was offered the use of a 2mb line for testing before but the location was not in my line of sight so I could do nothing about it. Pity.
Right.
Thanks Rymus.0 -
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Depending on distance, direct LOS is not required...
Some trees won't matter much, especially in winter, if you're only around a mile from the nearest base station. I did several tests through various layers of vegetation. It won't work through evergreen trees at any distance over quarter a mile I beleive, though it should work fine through a thinish layer of leaves for around a mile, which I tested.
Also, before I do anything serious here in wexford, I'm going to wait for the new faster standard of cards to come out; probably in the next 3 months, which will probably give speeds over 5 times faster in zones nearer to the base station.
If the Cork ppl get a network going, pop a base station onto some of the Comeragh mountains that can see towards the east, maybe near to the south coast tv transmitter, which has a view to the east, so that they can be joined together.
yellum, make sure you price Compaq cards, as they should be the best. Also, the cable is very expensive, around £3 - £4 per meter. If you're looking for antennas, there are lots of surplus galaxy tv mmds antennas from australia, which can be converted with a little modding. The gain isn't as good as a real antenna, but its only around £5 per antenna.
Brendan0 -
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Originally posted by kamobe
I'm from Blanchardstown, Dublin 15. I have little knowledge that could be of assistance, but I would love to be involved in setting up a service in my area, and certainly know plenty of friends and colleagues who would also be interested .
ditto
Blanchardstown Dublin 15 here and very interested. I have one other friend who'd be very interested who is in Blanch too. But again, I wouldn't have the technical experience, although I'd very very willing to learn!0 -
Originally posted by Praetorian
Has anyone done the maths on this??
How many people in my area would I need to make it reasonably feasable financially?
Answer: Not many. And it will be alot cheaper than anything currently on offer. And the BONUS. WE would own it and control it.
11-50 MB/s
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I wonder would an isp be up for helping us with this too ?
Good in theory for financial backing & infrastructre, but we want to keep prices as low as possible. Id say any ISP involvement and they'd be searching for profit margins and so on.. I think if we need funding in the long run with this, we could just lease the service to businesses (cos business users ALWAYS pay more than residential) Theres always plenty of investors excited in new developments in tech sector anyway. And lets face it, theres nothing as new as the users themselves forming their own ISP I was offered the use of a 2mb line for testing before but the location was not in my line of sight so I could do nothing about it. Pity.
whereabouts is this line located? Just because its not in your line of sight doesnt mean its not workable There will probably be a few base stations anyway (funds permitting of course) so we may be able to use that line after all in a short term testing capacity (before we get our own ) Anyway, I'll leave you to your drafting, good luck! 0 -
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Originally posted by rymus
Good in theory for financial backing & infrastructre, but we want to keep prices as low as possible. Id say any ISP involvement and they'd be searching for profit margins and so on..
Well I was thinking of the backing of an ISP maybe just for a leased line or something like that. Not actually paying for the hardware. If Esat was used to get the leased line they might give a hand in the planning of the sites. They do have planners in Digifone with very good maps and equipment. You never know.
I think if we need funding in the long run with this, we could just lease the service to businesses (cos business users ALWAYS pay more than residential) Theres always plenty of investors excited in new developments in tech sector anyway. And lets face it, theres nothing as new as the users themselves forming their own ISP
Well if you were to rent to a business you'd have to have an agreed quality of service etc. That can spiral into litigation and everything else. Once the technology has calmed down and good quaity, reliable standards and practices are brought in you could look at giving it to a business then. Home users would be so much easier to cater for though.
Personally I'd be more into the community idea of it. I'd set up an independent network if I was to offer this kind of service commercially, but with access gateways so the two networks could talk.
whereabouts is this line located? Just because its not in your line of sight doesnt mean its not workable There will probably be a few base stations anyway (funds permitting of course) so we may be able to use that line after all in a short term testing capacity (before we get our own )
The line is in the city centre. It was only to test my equipment and theirs. I'd prefer to try and get some proper commercial sponsorship. For example getting some company thats thinking of doing this to give us a small bit of money and we'll test away and find little problems and workarounds and other things that were not catered for in advance. We would then provide all this information to the sponsor so they could use it for their trials.
Anyway, am wasting precious time. 0 -
If you start selling to buisnesses, don't you need a license?
I am personnally interested in setting something up for a local community, non-profit. I think selling it will lead to corruption :}
Anyone else in the Dublin 15 area who would like to help, please get in touch 0 -
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Originally posted by Dr_Teeth
There's mailing list that's been in existence for some months now for discussion of this very topic!
Click here: http://lists.boxhost.net/mailman/listinfo/wan-dublin
For subscription info or to look through the archives.
Teeth.
Yup, I advise anyone interested to take this discussion over to the WAN DUBLIN list which my right honourable colleague Dr. Teeth has just advertised
No reason why we can't discuss WANs elsewhere in the country too.
The list traffic has been somewhat slow ... mostly daunted by the expense of equipment, along with difficulty of getting decent line-of-sight in Dublin, and of course legal issues. Read the archives, and post - it'd be good to continue those discussions.
Regards
Ian0 -
hmm, hate mailing lists
I beleive a "telecommunications service licence" would be needed if you were to be selling a wireless internet service. In my opinion, calling it a public non profit network that does not guarantee service in any way would probably dismiss the need for this, and still let you charge people for the hardware, and if you wanted to, split the charge of the bandwidth between the users, at cost price.
I'd be happy to allocate some server space and an ip address to host a site for a wan in ireland. If some people would like to contribute, I could set up sections for each community wan, as well as a message board, e.t.c.
Also, I've just ordered 4 of the galaxy tv antennas from australia. They're AUS$15 each, and its costing AUS$75 to ship them here. Amazingly good value at £60 inc shipping for 4 antennas.
Here are some other prices; http://consume.net/buy
A brand new 20db gain directional antenna designed for wan costs around £75 excluding shipping in australia.0 -
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Hi,
Yep, Australia is probably the cheapest, with the US coming in second. Many of the antenna companies are, or started off in australia because MMDS tv was big there till satellite came in.
I beleive that the Lucent wavelan/orinico (sp?) cards, or clones (such as Elsa Airlancer), and the Compaq WL2xx cards would be the best choices. The compaq is supposed to have a higher output than the Lucents, but most people use the lucents, due to driver, and third party support, e.t.c. All the cards can be got from dabs.com (works out a little cheaper than from australia due to shipping; you could get 1000 cards from dabs and still only pay £20 for shipping)
The best choice for antennas would of course be ones designed for it. The galaxy antennas which I'm getting, when modified should give approx 15db gain, whereas a proper one from Pacific Satellite for around £75 would give 20db, and need no modding.
Cable is expensive, and 20 meters (from australia) costs approx £60.
You also need a pigtail adapter to connect from the wireless card to the larger cable. They cost approx £25 from australia.
If everyone who is definatly interested could say so for definate, I'll try to get a quote, including shipping for a bulk purchase.
For the following kit:
Compaq WL210 PCI
20db gain directional antenna
10M of cable
1 pigtail adapter
Cost = £300 inc VAT EXCLUDING shipping (which I estimate to be around £60 for 5 - 10 day air).
So just lets say £375 to be sure, for each home setup.
If a PC Card is used, the cost is around £50 less.
I'd hope to get discount on stuff like shipping if a few orders were sent in the one package.
BTW, 20KG is the max weight per package.
I'll get a website set up either some evening this week, or at the weekend, where people can enter their location, see if anyone is nearby, and so on, as well as a dedicated message board if anyone wants it??
Brendan0 -
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