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Shannon supplying water to Dublin?

  • 17-07-2010 9:06am
    #1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,666 ✭✭✭✭


    In the usual half hearted way that RTE report on anything thats half way interesting, they did a piece last week that Dublin needs more water and that desalination is not an option, well duh! anyway it went quickly on to objections about using water from the Shannon without really analysing it. Assuming from an engeneering perspective that its the most reasonable solution, what are the objections based on? it came across as being "down with that sort of thing!"
    Are there any potential benefits in relation to flood mitigation?

    A belief in gender identity involves a level of faith as there is nothing tangible to prove its existence which, as something divorced from the physical body, is similar to the idea of a soul. - Colette Colfer



«134

Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 891 ✭✭✭Drummerboy2


    silverharp wrote: »
    In the usual half hearted way that RTE report on anything thats half way interesting, they did a piece last week that Dublin needs more water and that desalination is not an option, well duh! anyway it went quickly on to objections about using water from the Shannon without really analysing it. Assuming from an engeneering perspective that its the most reasonable solution, what are the objections based on? it came across as being "down with that sort of thing!"
    Are there any potential benefits in relation to flood mitigation?

    Its only a few months ago the locals along the banks of the Shannon who were flooded were complaining about the height of the water in the river. They blamed the ESB. Surely sending this surplus water to Dublin would be an ideal solution for both the locals and the reservoir's of Dublin.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,639 ✭✭✭Zoney


    drummerboy2,

    Great, except the time Dublin needs water most is in the summer, when everywhere else does too!

    The problem would not have arisen if the government had made it sufficiently attractive for businesses to invest in the regional cities such that emigration to Dublin could be halted. There isn't a lot the regional authorities can do about a lack of government regulation and investment in telecoms, power and transport infrastructure (interurban motorways should have been finished by 2006 - there remains a vast amount of road building and public transport investment to get our country remotely up to scratch on transport).

    Dublin is a disaster of a city, it clearly would have cost the state less overall to have less development in Dublin and more in the regions (any short-term extra investment in the regions would more than be made up for by improved long term economic returns from them, as well as less costly investment needed for a smaller Dublin). Now we are trying to sort out a poorly planned and sprawling city and pay for underdeveloped regions as well! The response of some commentators on forums etc. seems to be to suggest a totalitarian approach where everyone else is forced through poverty to abandon the regions too and state funding goes primarily to Dublin.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,284 ✭✭✭dubhthach


    Its only a few months ago the locals along the banks of the Shannon who were flooded were complaining about the height of the water in the river. They blamed the ESB. Surely sending this surplus water to Dublin would be an ideal solution for both the locals and the reservoir's of Dublin.

    Indeed wasn't there not a campaign for years to "Drain the Shannon" of course tbh most problems with flooding in Ireland is due to uncontrolled development in unsuitable locations. "Oh yes please build your ribbon development in the flood plain".

    As for the proposal. I recall my sister did a final year project in her Civil Engineering degree back in 99 or 2000 regarding piping water from upper Shannon to Dublin. I wonder if she still has a copy.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 25,234 ✭✭✭✭Sponge Bob


    dubhthach wrote: »
    I recall my sister did a final year project in her Civil Engineering degree back in 99 or 2000 regarding piping water from upper Shannon to Dublin. I wonder if she still has a copy.

    Now there is a reason to build the N4 From Carrick on Shannon to Mullingar :)


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,666 ✭✭✭✭silverharp


    Zoney wrote: »
    drummerboy2,

    The problem would not have arisen if the government had made it sufficiently attractive for businesses to invest in the regional cities such that emigration to Dublin could be halted. There isn't a lot the regional authorities can do about a lack of government regulation and investment in telecoms, power and transport infrastructure (interurban motorways should have been finished by 2006 - there remains a vast amount of road building and public transport investment to get our country remotely up to scratch on transport).

    Dublin is a disaster of a city, it clearly would have cost the state less overall to have less development in Dublin and more in the regions (any short-term extra investment in the regions would more than be made up for by improved long term economic returns from them, as well as less costly investment needed for a smaller Dublin). Now we are trying to sort out a poorly planned and sprawling city and pay for underdeveloped regions as well! The response of some commentators on forums etc. seems to be to suggest a totalitarian approach where everyone else is forced through poverty to abandon the regions too and state funding goes primarily to Dublin.


    I'd take the other side of that. It would be better if people and business went where they wanted to go instead of the economy being run by local politics using pseudo economics to justify transferring billions of taxpayers money for dubious projects and corporate welfare. Like it or not a country with 4 million is likely to only have 1 or 2 real cities and trying to "fight" it is self defeating.
    If Dublin is a disaster its down to a planning system that doesnt add value and our "socialist" live where you like provision of infrastructure.

    Zoney wrote: »
    Great, except the time Dublin needs water most is in the summer, when everywhere else does too!

    I guess this year showed it matters in the winter too. Does it imply some resevoirs being built along the way as well ?

    A belief in gender identity involves a level of faith as there is nothing tangible to prove its existence which, as something divorced from the physical body, is similar to the idea of a soul. - Colette Colfer



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,284 ✭✭✭dubhthach


    you wonder how much water usage would reduce if they had gotten the finger out and fixed the pipes/water metering/charges. From what I recall they loose over 30% of water through leaking pipes.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 25,234 ✭✭✭✭Sponge Bob


    dubhthach wrote: »
    you wonder how much water usage would reduce if they had gotten the finger out and fixed the pipes/water metering/charges. From what I recall they loose over 30% of water through leaking pipes.

    There are parts of Galway where the loss is over 60% and the council never requested fuinding to fix these leaks and now cannot request more funds until 2013.

    Every other council is similarly precluded by Green Gormley from requesting these funds too.

    If a network starts pissing treated water, as happens on occasion, it is not smart and green to fix it , according to Gormley.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,867 ✭✭✭SeanW


    +1 to the above 3 posts.

    Ireland needs 1, maybe 2, main cities. There are many types of business that are attracted to cities. Business that we need. Other cities have many more people and function much better. Dublin isn't "too big" or anything like that, only appearing that way to regional whingers lobbies.

    Who in turn are part of the problem, they did things like hamper the development and operation of Dublin Airport (it has a runway length of only 2.637km, shortest of any main runway of any main airport of any capital city in Europe (and this was a deliberate decision at the behest of the Shannon lobbies) among other mistakes) in a group of policies that are, nationally speaking, cutting your nose off to spite your face.

    As to the question of Dublin taking water from the Shannon, I think that without the existing pipework being fixed, it's a bit pointless to add 70 miles more pipes and resivoirs when fully 1/3 of the supply is going to be lost.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 25,234 ✭✭✭✭Sponge Bob


    I think the question is , were we to reduce water losses to 20% would we then need a Shannon extraction scheme sooner or later. I think we will need it sooner. Dublin water losses are around 20% now where they were 30% 10 years ago and it will be very costly to reduce that by much more in future with severely diminishing marginal returns.

    Cheaper to get water elsewhere. Dont forget that Birmingham gets most of its water 100 miles away near the coast of Wales and has done since the 19th century.

    The Boyne catchment is also stressed by the commuter belt and may need summer topups too.

    Anyway the state now owns half of Leitrim through Nama and needs to find a use for its 'investment' :p

    But for now we need to get Gormley to agree to PRINCIPLES based network management where we deal with the 60% losses and then the 50% plus and then the 40% plus etc. The cost of processing water is roughly the same nationally and the losses are easily converted into €€€s.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 624 ✭✭✭Aidan1


    Does it imply some resevoirs being built along the way as well ?

    Yes - the current plan involves the creation of a significant 'artificial lake' (read reservoir on a spent Bord na Mona bog in Co. Kildare. This will allow the water to be taken from the Shannon when water levels are high, and stored in the reservoir until needed.

    Spongebob - wasn't there an announcement recently on capital works to renew water mains? I think its safe to say that people are fully aware of the need to remedy the leak problem - sustaining pressure in a leaky system is also a fairly serious component of energy demand. However, it doesn't matter if your policy is based on PRINCIPLES or VOODOO, iif you can't pay for it, its all ACADEMIC ;)


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  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 25,234 ✭✭✭✭Sponge Bob


    Aidan1 wrote: »
    Spongebob - wasn't there an announcement recently on capital works to renew water mains?

    Plenty of announcements. This was the main one. Very little of this money has been disbursed. Remember that the savings when you plug rampant leaks start to pay for themselves from day one.

    http://www.environ.ie/en/Environment/Water/WaterServices/News/MainBody,22736,en.htm
    The Programme provides for investment of some €320 million in network rehabilitation alone – a doubling of expenditure is this area over the past 7 years.

    http://www.environ.ie/en/Environment/Water/WaterServices/WaterServicesInvestmentProgramme/#Latest%20Investment%20Programme:%20Water%20Services%20Investment%20Programme%202010%20-%202012
    This level of funding should allow for the rehabilitation of some 640km of water mains, which is almost 3% of the national public network. Funding is particularly targeted at areas where the level of unaccounted for water is unacceptably high.

    But many areas were left out, over half of Galway and half of Mayo and half of Roscommon were not considered for this programme despite their having hotspots where losses were known to be enormous and water quality suspect because of leaks.

    These are not itemised by Gormley but are called "conservation works" in each countys overall allocation bar in Offaly where the individual conservation schemes are broken out.

    Stage 1 Conservation is the installation of metering and flow control measurements and mapping the pipes Stage 2 conservation is actually fixing the leaks. Stage 3 is wholesale replacement where 1 and 2 were a failure. There are no stage 1 or 2 conservation projects in the Dublin area because Dublin and Wicklow were funded to complete both of these stages by 2007 ...unlike the rest of the country.

    Having done so (and failed) they need to move to stage 3 and/or drain the Shannon :)

    http://www.environ.ie/en/Publications/Environment/Water/FileDownLoad,23037,en.pdf


  • Registered Users Posts: 761 ✭✭✭Jayuu


    dubhthach wrote: »
    you wonder how much water usage would reduce if they had gotten the finger out and fixed the pipes/water metering/charges. From what I recall they loose over 30% of water through leaking pipes.

    +1

    The amount of wasted water is nothing short of a national scandal. Fixing and replacing outdated pipes would surely not only be a good way of creating employment but also be kinder to the environment. Fresh drinkable water is becomming an increasingly more scare and valuable resource. We should be acting now to preserve our supply. But no, our reaction is to throw more water at the problem.

    Reminds me of when the Millennium Clock was put in the Liffey and you couldn't see it clearly because the river was too dirty. The suggested solution was to make the display brighter. Nobody ever suggested trying to make the river cleaner! :rolleyes:


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,666 ✭✭✭✭silverharp


    Aidan1 wrote: »
    Yes - the current plan involves the creation of a significant 'artificial lake' (read reservoir on a spent Bord na Mona bog in Co. Kildare. This will allow the water to be taken from the Shannon when water levels are high, and stored in the reservoir until needed.

    seems like win win, so if a wetter than normal winter was on the cards, the "lake" could be drained and left ready to be filled at short notice?



    As for the pipes issue seems like typical behaviour of state run companies. It would have been better to privatise the network and have had the meters installed a decade ago. Can you imagine how great our telephone networks were if they were "free"

    A belief in gender identity involves a level of faith as there is nothing tangible to prove its existence which, as something divorced from the physical body, is similar to the idea of a soul. - Colette Colfer



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 69,537 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    silverharp wrote: »
    As for the pipes issue seems like typical behaviour of state run companies. It would have been better to privatise the network and have had the meters installed a decade ago. Can you imagine how great our telephone networks were if they were "free"

    Ironically our phone network was fantastic when Telecom was state owned, as they had massive profits from callsand no ability to spend them on anything else. ISDN in every backwater, etc. It was only when it was privatised that they stopped spending anything.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 25,234 ✭✭✭✭Sponge Bob


    And now we pay the highest monthly line rental in the whole world for the worst network in Western Europe.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,588 ✭✭✭Bluetonic


    Jayuu wrote: »
    Fixing and replacing outdated pipes would surely not only be a good way of creating employment but also be kinder to the environment.
    Do you have any idea of how expensive this would be and how long it would take? Then consider the disruption involved to both water services and streets as they are dug up.

    It's a lovely thought but just not practical.


  • Registered Users Posts: 761 ✭✭✭Jayuu


    Bluetonic wrote: »
    Do you have any idea of how expensive this would be and how long it would take? Then consider the disruption involved to both water services and streets as they are dug up.

    It's a lovely thought but just not practical.

    I'm going to disagree with you on this. Nobody is saying that its going to be easy or even that cheap but in the longer term its probably going to be necessary one way of the other to address this infrastructural deficit.

    This is symptomatic of the approach taken to issues in Ireland. We don't try to be pro-active in any way. We just wait for the crisis to happen and then spend more money on trying to catch up, which we never really do. Metering is going to be introduced in the next while which probably will dampen down some of the demand here as people have to pay for their usage but eventually demand will grow again and we should be preparing for that point.

    Until recently I worked for a pension management company who specialise in the sale of environmental products. All of the research they and other similar companies have done show that clean water is going to be one of the scarcest resources in the 21st century because of growing demand and potential climate change. Ireland is lucky in this regard because of our location but we can see that even here it only takes one severe bout of extreme weather to thrown our water system into chaos.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,666 ✭✭✭✭silverharp


    Jayuu wrote: »
    I'm going to disagree with you on this. Nobody is saying that its going to be easy or even that cheap but in the longer term its probably going to be necessary one way of the other to address this infrastructural deficit.

    This is symptomatic of the approach taken to issues in Ireland. We don't try to be pro-active in any way. We just wait for the crisis to happen and then spend more money on trying to catch up, which we never really do. Metering is going to be introduced in the next while which probably will dampen down some of the demand here as people have to pay for their usage but eventually demand will grow again and we should be preparing for that point.

    indeed, when it comes down to it, people will happily shell out up €1,000 on TV , mobile and internet connections which are far less important then clean water. The problem is people expect water to be free and available at pressure 24/7. if the government cant figure out how to maintian the system in preference to decentralisation and the other gimmicks, will they please sell the network and let private companies run it.
    Unless its cheaper to deliver water by truck (and I doubt it) , the cost of living in an older city is to gradually have the entire infrastructure replaced every 30 to 50 years or so.



    Seperate question, in any newer cities (around the world), are the pipes layed in a way that they can be got at without digging up the road. either in tunnels or that the road surface can be lifted in some way?

    A belief in gender identity involves a level of faith as there is nothing tangible to prove its existence which, as something divorced from the physical body, is similar to the idea of a soul. - Colette Colfer



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,698 ✭✭✭D'Peoples Voice


    Jayuu wrote: »
    This is symptomatic of the approach taken to issues in Ireland. We don't try to be pro-active in any way. We just wait for the crisis to happen and then spend more money on trying to catch up, which we never really do. Metering is going to be introduced in the next while which probably will dampen down some of the demand here as people have to pay for their usage but eventually demand will grow again and we should be preparing for that point.
    I think its worth noting that Irish people use expensively treated drinking water in their
      showers
      radiators for central heating
      washing their car
      flushing the toilet
      hosing their lawn
      washing machine
      dishwashers
      putting out fires(fire brigade)
      roadsweepers
      washing windows, moping floors, general washing

    I can't but think that it might be cheaper in the LONG run to connect a second pipe to everyone's house, whereby cheap untreated rain water could be used for many of the above services:rolleyes:


  • Registered Users Posts: 203 ✭✭bacon&cabbage



    I can't but think that it might be cheaper in the LONG run to connect a second pipe to everyone's house, whereby cheap untreated rain water could be used for many of the above services:rolleyes:

    Kingspan were trying to sell this the last time water shortages were in the media

    http://www.kingspanwater.com/domestic_rainwater_harvesting.htm


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,779 ✭✭✭Carawaystick


    I think its worth noting that Irish people use expensively treated drinking water in their
      showers
      radiators for central heating
      washing their car
      flushing the toilet
      hosing their lawn
      washing machine
      dishwashers
      putting out fires(fire brigade)
      roadsweepers
      washing windows, moping floors, general washing

    I can't but think that it might be cheaper in the LONG run to connect a second pipe to everyone's house, whereby cheap untreated rain water could be used for many of the above services:rolleyes:

    While I think the point about using untreated water is a good one, I'd say that horse has bolted now.

    It's definitely madness to use potable water for the toilet.

    However, I'd be wary of using untreated water for showering or washing dishes, and I'd imagine the amount of water used in radiators each year per household is so small as to be pointless.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,720 ✭✭✭serfboard


    I think its worth noting that Irish people use expensively treated drinking water in their
      showers
      radiators for central heating
      washing their car
      flushing the toilet
      hosing their lawn
      washing machine
      dishwashers
      putting out fires(fire brigade)
      roadsweepers
      washing windows, moping floors, general washing

    I can't but think that it might be cheaper in the LONG run to connect a second pipe to everyone's house, whereby cheap untreated rain water could be used for many of the above services:rolleyes:

    Agree with you about this, I think we should be using more rainwater harvesting systems in this country, since in normal years we have more than enough.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,588 ✭✭✭Bluetonic


    Jayuu wrote: »
    I'm going to disagree with you on this. Nobody is saying that its going to be easy or even that cheap but in the longer term its probably going to be necessary one way of the other to address this infrastructural deficit.
    Whats the cost of fixing the leaks along with the cost of disruption?

    Would you be happy to pay this via smart water metering and charges on your domestic tap?


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 25,234 ✭✭✭✭Sponge Bob


    This has gone a bit further than I thought

    http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2010/0720/1224275074682.html
    A 500-ACRE bog in Co Offaly has been chosen as the proposed site for an “eco water park and reservoir” as part of Dublin City Council’s plan to pump water from the river Shannon.


    The council is proposing a €540 million, Government-funded project which would supply 350 million litres of water a day to the Dublin region. The council says the project would also supply water to residents and businesses in Meath, Wicklow, Kildare, Offaly and Westmeath.

    So it is a Boyne and Liffey catchment supply booster, I thought so.

    The article then descents into typical green spin doctor eco bullmanure :(
    The council says the project would also supply water to residents and businesses in Meath, Wicklow, Kildare, Offaly and Westmeath. In a statement yesterday, the council said the project would create an “innovative water based eco-park with fishing, boating, cycling, water and leisure sports” in the midlands It said 1,000 construction jobs would be created alongside an unspecified number of long-term tourism and recreation jobs in the midlands.


    The only thing missing is water bicycles for Gormley and Ryan :( Once the green eco bollix has been regurgitated we get back to some facts.

    Consultants for the council, RPS and Veolia Water, envisage the water being taken from the Shannon at Lough Derg during periods of flood and high flows only The water would be stored at the new “eco park” at Garryhinch Bog, from where it could be pumped to Dublin or even back to the Shannon to be used during periods of low flows, according to the consultants.


    It is not an eco park you green morons, it is a reservoir. It will be a few miles north of Mountmellick just inside Offaly. You can see the proposed location as a sizeable brown stain HERE on Google Maps , around 4 miles west of Portarlington.

    Mind you I don't think this can be very deep somehow. 500 acres times a feasible 6 metres deep is around 12m cubic metres. That is near enough what the London Underground alone pumps out of its network every year to stop it from flooding :) 350m litres times 365 days is around 12.8m cubic metres . Near enough.

    I shall be along for the bog cotton planting any day you green fuks :(


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,160 ✭✭✭nilhg


    I see Bord na Mona want to build a reservoir between Mountmellick and Portarlington to hold water pumped out of the Shannon during flood periods for storage and eventual use in the midlands and Dublin regions, it'll also be, according to them, a significant leisure amenity for the area.

    The flyer is here


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 25,234 ✭✭✭✭Sponge Bob


    There is an abandoned branch of the Grand Canal just south of the reservoir that once ran from Mountmellick to Monasterevin.


  • Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 12,887 Mod ✭✭✭✭JupiterKid


    One issue that hasn't really been raised here is that abstracting water from the River Shannon to satisfy Dublin's thirst could seriously affect navigation levels on the Shannon, especially along the shallow stretches of the river between Roosky and Lough Ree.

    Just the past May and early June, water levels were so low that many cruisers ran aground on the river, especially in the Lough Forbes area.:(


    The IWAI (Inland Waterways Association of Ireland) and many tourist and boating/fishing groups along the Shannon are very concerned about the water proposals.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,037 ✭✭✭Pete_Cavan


    JupiterKid wrote: »
    One issue that hasn't really been raised here is that abstracting water from the River Shannon to satisfy Dublin's thirst could seriously affect navigation levels on the Shannon, especially along the shallow stretches of the river between Roosky and Lough Ree.

    Just the past May and early June, water levels were so low that many cruisers ran aground on the river, especially in the Lough Forbes area.:(


    The IWAI (Inland Waterways Association of Ireland) and many tourist and boating/fishing groups along the Shannon are very concerned about the water proposals.

    The proposal is to take the water from Lough Derg, which is down stream of the areas you are talking about so am I right in thinking it wouldnt effect them?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,160 ✭✭✭nilhg


    Pete_Cavan wrote: »
    The proposal is to take the water from Lough Derg, which is down stream of the areas you are talking about so am I right in thinking it wouldnt effect them?

    And to take it only when the river is in flood and store it in the proposed reservoir at Garryhinch.


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  • Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 12,887 Mod ✭✭✭✭JupiterKid


    The proposal is to take the water from Lough Derg, which is down stream of the areas you are talking about so am I right in thinking it wouldnt effect them?


    Well, the original proposal was to abstract the water from Lough Ree, which is already a shallow lake. Taking the water from Lough Derg, which is quite deep in many places, makes more sense but the entire project will have to be thought through very carefully. Shannon navigation is vitally important for tourism in the Midlands region.

    And I agree with the others who think its scandalous that there is such a high degree of water leakage from out existing water supply infrastructure., much of which is old and inefficient. We take water too much for granted in Ireland. Many countrie would gasp at the amount of water we waste.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,419 ✭✭✭Cool Mo D


    Even though it is scandalous how much water we leak, it is actually very, very difficult to fix. The only way to tell where a leak is, is if you see water reach the surface. If the councils knew where the actual leaks were, as opposed to how much water they were losing, it would be possible to fix a lot more easily.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,284 ✭✭✭dubhthach


    The ESB mighten be happy having water taken from Loch Derg :) , awh well it's a better proposal then taking it from the upper Shannon in my opinion. going by google Loch Derg is 36 metres at it's deepest.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,037 ✭✭✭Pete_Cavan


    Cool Mo D wrote: »
    Even though it is scandalous how much water we leak, it is actually very, very difficult to fix. The only way to tell where a leak is, is if you see water reach the surface. If the councils knew where the actual leaks were, as opposed to how much water they were losing, it would be possible to fix a lot more easily.

    I agree it is very expensive to fix the leaks in our water system but I dont think it is that difficult to find the leaks. Councils use listening devices to find the leaks in water mains in housing estates and force the developer to pay for these leaks. This is fair enough but then the council do very little to maintain their own water infrastructure. The leaks are not hard to find, it is the cost of fixing them that prevents it from happening.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,110 ✭✭✭KevR


    Obviously it would require a much longer pipeline, but if there is any concern about water levels for navigation purposes would it not be better to take the water from very far downstream (almost where the river meets the sea)?

    e.g. - you could take as much water as you wanted from the River Corrib (below the Weir) and it wouldn't have any effect on water levels in Lough Corrib.

    Same goes for the Shannon surely?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,284 ✭✭✭dubhthach


    KevR wrote: »
    Obviously it would require a much longer pipeline, but if there is any concern about water levels for navigation purposes would it not be better to take the water from very far downstream (almost where the river meets the sea)?

    e.g. - you could take as much water as you wanted from the River Corrib (below the Weir) and it wouldn't have any effect on water levels in Lough Corrib.

    Same goes for the Shannon surely?

    Well the river becomes tidal at Limerick, so you end up with "Brackish" water which isn't drinkable. The level of the River is the same at Loch Derg as it is at Ardnacrusha power station. Then it's drops 30metres. The tail race of the power station is still fresh water as the tidal zone doesn't start until around Thomond Bridge.

    So basically to pump from below Loch Derg you'd be pumping water from within Limerick City.

    As for the Corrib well you see how low it is under the Salmon Weir Bridge in summer when nearly all the gates are closed. There's not enough fresh water in it before it hits the tidal zone to be usable. The river is tidal up to at least O'Brien's Bridge.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,779 ✭✭✭Carawaystick


    Remember the cost of moving whatever amount of water from the altitude it's taken from out of the Shannon to the altitude it's going to be stored at in Offaly It'd be less than a great idea to be pumping water up as well as along.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 25,234 ✭✭✭✭Sponge Bob


    IIRC the two largest rivers that drain into the Shannon are the Brosna in Offaly and the Suck in Galway/Roscommon. The Shannon is then at its maximum flow pretty much by the time it reaches Banagher.

    If you extract just below those two , around Banagher , that is conveniently the nearest point to the reservoir and the terrain from Banagher to Mountmellick is very flat.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,284 ✭✭✭dubhthach


    Sponge Bob wrote: »
    IIRC the two largest rivers that drain into the Shannon are the Brosna in Offaly and the Suck in Galway/Roscommon. The Shannon is then at its maximum flow pretty much by the time it reaches Banagher.

    If you extract just below those two , around Banagher , that is conveniently the nearest point to the reservoir and the terrain from Banagher to Mountmellick is very flat.

    Just a couple KM's further south of Banagher you have the Victoria Lock and weir at Meelick. The level of the River here is the same all the way then until the powerhouse at Ardnacrusha. Extracting water here wouldn't affect the navigation between Meelick and Athlone where the next navigation Lock is. The river north of Meelick is the most heavily navigated section that's for sure.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 25,234 ✭✭✭✭Sponge Bob


    dubhthach wrote: »
    The level of the River here is the same all the way then until the powerhouse at Ardnacrusha.

    Is there no drop in the level AT ALL from Meelick Weir ( sometimes called Meelick Sluices) to Ardnacrusha/Parteen. Thats a good 30 if not 40 miles.

    As to why one would pump down near Killaloe where the water need to be horsed over mountains in North Tipp ...instead of around Meelick/Banagher I am flummoxed.

    The first thing to do is to put one agency in charge of the Shannon, either IWAI or the ESB and not both as now.

    Adding Dublin Corporation into the stakeholder matrix would be silly.....ie very "Smart" and "Green" as those two phrases alway strongly imply when concatenated :(

    There is a very good overview below of flows and levels. Dublin should be free to extract around Meelick weir at times of high levels but should be strictly precluded from doing so as a very junior stakeholder at other times. To me that implies a bigger reservoir.

    http://iwn.iwai.ie/v29i3/waterlevel.PDF


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,110 ✭✭✭✭cnocbui


    I think people need to appreciate just how much water is available from Lough Derg after heavy rains. To this end I am posting a photo of water under the bridge at Killaloe on 26th November 2009. I have contrasted this with a photo taken when levels are more normal, though the flow can still be seen to be brisk.

    The photos were taken from different vantage points, and thus from different perspectives.

    KillaloeBridgeflood.jpg

    Look more at the water levels on the far - upstream - side of the bridge. The flow was so strong the water banked up on the upstream side by 40+ cm I would say. The rate of flow at the time was quite prodigious and I believe there may have been structural cracks in the bridge afterward. I am somewhat surprised (and dissapointed ;-) the visually horrendous eel weir wasn't swept away.

    If water were to be taken from Lough Derg at peak times, I doubt the loss would ever be noticed or have any impact on the system.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,284 ✭✭✭dubhthach


    Sponge Bob wrote: »
    Is there no drop in the level AT ALL from Meelick Weir ( sometimes called Meelick Sluices) to Ardnacrusha/Parteen. Thats a good 30 if not 40 miles.

    There use to be a drop from Killaloe to Limerick, there was a weir at Killaloe and navigation canal. However the weir was removed as part of the Shannon Scheme. The dam they built at Parteen was then used to create an artificial lake between there and Killaloe. As a result you then have a 30metre drop at the double locks at the power house (in comparison most locks are 3-4metres -- lock on Eglinton canal in Galway was about 6metres)

    The old stone church in the grounds of Killaloe cathedral was on one of the islands submerged by this artifical lake. they took it apart stone by stone and rebuilt in it Killaloe.

    Some great photos of navigation at Ardnacrusha here:
    http://irishwaterwayshistory.com/about/irish-waterways-operations/the-esb-lock-at-ardnacrusha/


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 25,234 ✭✭✭✭Sponge Bob


    The point I am really making is that most of the Shannons water has been collected by the time it reaches Meelick , why should we not pump like mad hoors about there ...... when the river is high in the winter that is.....and in July nowadays :)
    • It is the closest point to the Bog Reservoir.
    • The cost of pumping is pretty optimal for the project , it is sub optimal to pump it 30 miles further across hilly north Tipp.
    • All we are doing is pumping is a fraction of what would go over the weir in Parteen (direct to Limerick ) and we would leave the Ardnacrusha quota intact.

    We even have a midmerit OCGT/CCGT plant going into Ferbane which could be used to baseload the pumping while it is on standby for full spinup outside its full call hours and then switch to surplus at night when it is spun down.

    Someone with more grid nous than I could develop that further but my understanding is that it could be used for around 4 hours a day while upspinning and before the grid takes the load from it. But there will be no such plant near Killaloe.

    That plant is beside the old railway line from Banagher to Clara and it would not even have to charge eirgrid transit for the electricity as it could directly power the pumps and most especially if the pipeline used the old railway line route.

    Railway line across top of map and power station bottom centre ( turn on Ortho 2000)

    One would not quite go to Clara from Ferbane but one would cut east from the railway line before one reaches the Eiscir Riada.

    That would be the smart green solution to my mind. It would also be a slightly useful flood mitigation measure from Meelick to Portumna, not that Dublin greens give a flying fuk for country people :(


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 116 ✭✭Son of Stupido


    lets just debase the whole arguement a little

    Current situation:
    1. There is a problem of flooding along the shannon in winter, getting worse each year
    2. Dublin (East Leinster) needs more water
    Proposed solutions
    1. When the shannon is in flood, pressure can be released via a pipeline to fill a reservoir.
    2. Flood waters can be stored, treated and used to solve water shortage.
    seems like a no-brainer to me!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,284 ✭✭✭dubhthach


    Sponge Bob wrote: »
    The point I am really making is that most of the Shannons water has been collected by the time it reaches Meelick , why should we not pump like mad hoors about there ...... when the river is high in the winter that is.....and in July nowadays :)

    According to Business section of the Irish Times today the pumping station would be north of Lough Derg so seems like the map showing a pipeline from Killaloe was just someone been creative in a newspaper art department.

    The article mentions 2.5% of the Shannon's flow been deported during heavy flows in Winter. Currently in normal conditions the flow on the Shannon is about 50tons of water a second (40 tons/s at Ardnacrusha, 10 tons/s at Parteen)


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 25,234 ✭✭✭✭Sponge Bob


    That makes much more sense than the map in the Times early this week showing a pipeline from Killaloe at the bottom of the lake. Just North of Lough Derg means a flat route to the Bog reservoir.

    The Bog reservoir at either 12m cubic meters ( my guesstimate) or 12.8m cubic metres will store less than 1 month supply for the Greater Dublin Region, or is that a super Greater Dublin region ....or the beginnings of a National Water Authority ??

    http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/finance/2010/0723/1224275294721.html

    545m litres = 545k Cubic Meters = 545k Tons

    Dublin City Council says supply and demand to the region are balanced on a knife edge.



    In the greater Dublin region, demand is running at 545 million litres a day, while maximum production stands at 580 million litres a day.


    By 2022, it is reckoned that demand will be 621 million litres a day and maximum daily production 627 million litres.


    Nine years later, demand will have reached 700 million litres daily while production will have stalled, leaving a lot of people thirsty.


    Yesterday State company Bord na Móna presented Dublin City Council with a plan developed by it and consultants RPS and Veolia Water to bring excess water from the Shannon basin to the midlands and east.


    The plan involves taking the water from a point just to the north of Lough Derg and piping it to a reservoir at a cutaway bog at Garryhinch, close to Portarlington, Co Laois, where it would be treated and distributed to as many as nine counties stretching from Dublin to Westmeath.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,093 ✭✭✭Amtmann


    A lot of fighting talk hereunder. Once more, though, the fragile nature of Irish national identity, with its attendant provincialism, is plain to see.
    Plans to pump water from the River Shannon to service the Dublin region’s ever-growing appetite have met resistance in the midlands, despite promises of jobs and tourism. It all boils down to trust, writes KATHY SHERIDAN

    “Water is life. It’s the briny broth of our origins, the pounding circulatory system of the world. We stake our civilisations on the coasts and mighty rivers. Our deepest dread is the threat of having too little – or too much”. Barbara Kingsolver, writing in National Geographic.

    TOO LITTLE water? What are the chances, in a country mildewed, sodden, pummelled with the stuff? Returning from Athlone on Wednesday, this writer was briefly stranded when flash floods pounded both lanes of the town’s bypass. Similar downpours forced traffic to a stop on the N7 and even discommoded Dublin 4. And all in high summer.

    Which is a touch ironic since the purpose of the Athlone trip was to tease out a €500 million proposal to pipe vast quantities of water all the way from Lough Derg on the River Shannon to the greater Dublin region.

    Yes, the waters of the Shannon – not the mighty Liffey – are destined some day to slake the thirst of exploding Dublin and its environs.

    The population of the Dublin region is predicted to reach 2.2 million by 2031. Currently, it needs some 550 million litres of treated water a day to keep its 1.5 million inhabitants happy. Within 21 years, that will climb to 800 million litres a day, a 350 million litre deficit, which will be abstracted from Lough Derg and piped all the way to Dublin, via a massive reservoir in Co Offaly – if Dublin City Council gets its way.

    The carrot for the midlands is the plan to set the reservoir in a cutaway Bord na Móna bog that would double as “an innovative water-based eco park, with fishing, boating, cycling, water and leisure sports”, with the promise of 1,000 construction jobs, plus long-term tourism and recreation employment for the region.

    On radio this week, the chief executive of Bord na Móna, Gabriel D’Arcy suggested that the board’s motivation was to alleviate the “quite extensive flooding” in the Shannon basin. Its engineers had begun to look at cutaway bogs as flood plains, he said, and to identify certain natural reservoir areas, when they became aware of a Dublin City Council study looking at water needs for the eastern part of the country including the Dublin local authorities, plus Meath, Kildare, Offaly, Wicklow and Westmeath.

    A plan was born. Take the water from the west, store it in a reservoir/recreational water park in the midlands and sell it to the east. “Along the Shannon, there is flooding for eight months of the year. Why can’t I use that water, store it, treat it and disseminate it?” asked D’Arcy.

    So why can’t he?

    Charlie Flanagan TD, who represents Laois-Offaly, has no problem with it and thinks that it’s “quite exciting” in fact. “This plan appears to be more than pie in the sky and deserves every consideration.”

    But it’s not that simple. There are issues of trust; resentment at the historical neglect of these waterways by the agencies that now covet them; a sense that Dublin gambled with unsustainable growth and now expects the Shannon to cover the losses.

    For now, the main forces against the plan are farmers and anglers. But this is no clear-cut rural-versus-urban scenario. The farmers and anglers agree on only a few important points. Both insist the plan will do nothing to alleviate flooding and that it’s cynical to suggest otherwise. They hold Bord na Móna responsible for the silting of the waterways, and finger this as a prime cause of the summer – and some of the winter – flooding.

    Both groups are calling for a single regulatory authority, with teeth, to manage the waterways (as is Fine Gael). And both look askance at the notion that the ESB – a key stakeholder of the Shannon – should be in line for compensation for loss of generating capacity, if the plan goes ahead. “I think it’s ironic if they can get compensation,” says east Galway farmer and chairman of the Irish Farmer’s Association (IFA) flood project team, Michael Silke. “We always felt they had a responsibility for holding back water at artificially high levels or at least had some call on it . . . Effectively they own the water.

    “I find the idea of compensation going into their coffers rather difficult to take, considering the amount of suffering that people have endured [in the floods].”

    And that’s where consensus ends. Chairman of the Shannon Protection Alliance (SPA) Martin McEnroe claims, for example, that abstraction of such huge volumes of water would dry up the Inny and Cross rivers, plus all the feeder streams that are “the veins and arteries of Lough Ree, the spawning grounds for all aquatic life in the Shannon”. Michael Silke, however, sees nothing wrong with shipping surplus water to Dublin.

    “We’ve an abundance of water . . . My land has been flooded and half the farm submerged in three to four feet of water for three years. This plan won’t solve the flooding but I believe it makes good sense to share an abundance with those who need it.”

    The anglers’ catch-cry, by contrast, is “Not a bucket!”

    Mary O’Rourke, TD for Longford-Westmeath and president of the SPA, called it the “rape of our water”, when the proposers appeared to be setting their sights on Lough Ree. But it was never going to happen to Lough Ree, she says happily, not with a midlands Taoiseach and a lot of high-powered midlands connections. “I don’t think it will go into the history books but we think we saved Athlone. We fought it tenaciously. They [the proposers] said: ‘We’ll be needing the water for Dublin but we’ll be taking it in a sensitive way’,” she says scornfully. “We called it what it was – they were going to pillage our water.”

    Happily for O’Rourke and the Athlone campaigners, the fickle finger moved on and has landed on Lough Derg, where Joe O’Donoghue of the Lough Derg Anglers Association, a man who says he has “no vested interest and nothing to gain from the water but the pleasure of being on it”, gets to the nub of the matter: “If water is abstracted, if that pipe goes in at all, we’re lost.” Isn’t that a bit dramatic? “No, it’s not. At that point we would have no control whatever over what was being abstracted.”

    This is where the trust deficit stings. “The operators might say they need 350 million litres a day – but what will happen if the need exceeds that?” asks O’Donoghue. “All it will take is a ministerial order to raise the volume being abstracted . . . And who’s going to know? Who is going to monitor those conditions and say ‘stop’ when conditions aren’t right?

    “If you could trust the powers that be to only take the water at high times. But you can be sure of one thing: never, ever, ever, will Dubliners be told their water supply will be cut off.” And clearly, the view is that no minister can be trusted with such a choice anyway.

    Donal Whelan, who describes himself as “dogsbody secretary” of a fishing group on Lough Derg, notes that initially they were told abstraction would happen in winter time only, “but then they began talking about taking of water ‘that would reflect the flow of the water’ – which is a kind of a ‘get out of jail card’. It’s down the road that people are concerned about.” But this is about much more than angling concerns, says Joe O’Donoghue.

    “Say an industry was thinking about coming to this area, one that needed a good reliable supply of water. We tick all the boxes here. We have an airport nearby, good roads, a good, educated workforce, but we’ve committed the water to Dublin. So we’re no longer ticking all the boxes. We’re cutting our own throats. We need jobs here too. I’ve a son, a draughtsman, who’s out of work.”

    With Dublin already at bursting point, they argue, why not take industry to the water, instead of shipping water to industry? Meanwhile, Nenagh hasn’t had a new industry in 20 years.

    It was a point strongly made at a “robust” two-and-a-half hour meeting in Nenagh this week, called to hear RPS consultants try to sell the project. Why, asked one participant, was Fingal County Council getting the go-ahead for thousands of new houses, a whole new town, if the county couldn’t maintain a water supply?

    There were cries of “not a drop”, talk of “raping the Shannon”, critical remarks about sending “our water to be leaked through the pipes of Dublin”. But there was a general feeling, says Whelan, that it does make sense to abstract water in high-flow periods, under very strict conditions. “The only problem is that a lot of people don’t have trust. A ministerial order could change that at a stroke. It’s a difficult one. There’s a lack of confidence in the controls. You’ll know eventually that it’s happened but by then it’s too late.”

    IT ALWAYS COMES BACK TO TRUST , and because most people who have an affiliation with water know its value and therefore the dangers of privatisation, there is deep suspicion in many circles about where such a commercial venture might take them.

    “If they go to the expense of putting in pipelines and pumps and put in filtering stations on the shores of Lough Derg, Bord na Móna immediately has a hold on clean water and can sell it anywhere it wants,” says O’Donoghue. Whelan adds: “At least Bord na Móna is a semi-State, but nobody knows who’ll come into the mixture.”

    The carrot of the eco park and 1,000 jobs doesn’t cut much ice with Martin McEnroe, either, who has laboured over many years to defend waterways and restore water quality: “A thousand jobs and a new lake are very laudable. But hasn’t Cavan a lake for every day of the year? We have enough lakes. If we could only look after the ones we have already . . .We have 240 miles of river and three main lakes – Lough Allen, Lough Ree and Lough Derg. The money and management are not going in to protect those. Most of the work on the Shannon has been carried out by angling clubs.”

    O’Donoghue recalls the epic battle 12 years ago to retrieve the water quality in Lough Derg amid public uproar. “All that time, when we were fighting our case, we never heard a word from Dublin – but now, it’s not our water; now it belongs to all Ireland.”

    “The real agenda,” suggests veteran campaigner PJ Walsh, is to give Dublin City Council control of the Shannon, all 240 miles of it, running through 18 counties, none of which happens to be Dublin.

    “There are at least 30 agencies – including the 18 county councils – with an interest in the Shannon, but no single responsible authority with teeth. Not one of those councils is to be consulted by Dublin City Council, which has no historical, legal or any other basis to decree itself to be the 19th stakeholder. It would make as much sense for Longford to declare itself a stakeholder of the Liffey,” he says.

    “The last pirates on the Shannon were the Danes,” says Walsh. “They came from Dublin – ironically – round the coast, up through Limerick and all they took were the ecclesiastical artefacts and the occasional fed-up nun. And their entire escapades were brought to a conclusion under the terms of the first Good Friday agreement at Clontarf, courtesy of Brian Boru.

    “In the intervening 1,000 years, we’ve had no raiding party on the Shannon – until now and ironically, the pirates emanate from the same source and will be repudiated with the same force.”

    Among the weaponry is a complaint to Brussels from the National Angling Council of Ireland, about the “adverse effects” of the proposal, says McEnroe.

    “They’ll be examining the Water Framework Directive, the Habitat Directive and the Bird Directive, all to see if the proposal is in conflict with them. The whole of the Shannon is an SAC [Special Area of Conservation] of course.”

    Bord na Móna’s Gabriel D’Arcy – speaking from the company’s Lanesboro works, where 90mms of rain fell on Wednesday – concedes the reservoir will not solve the flooding problem, “but it is one element of a number of factors that will help to alleviate it”.

    He rejects the pollution claims, saying Bord na Móna owns only 37,000 of the 200,000 hectares of peatland in the Shannon catchment, that all its bog areas have been under Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) control for 10 years and that it had been using silting technology for the previous 12 or 13 years.

    “I’m not going to answer for what happened [with the silting of the waterways]. The vast majority of peatland is not owned by Bord na Móna and we’re the only ones under EPA control,” he says, pointing to “a lot of agricultural activity” in those areas.

    Bord na Móna clarifies the role of a private company, Veolia Water. Veolias expertise was brought in by RPS to deal only with the part of the report relating to desalination, according to a Bord na Móna spokesperson.

    D’Arcy says: “This is a key piece of national infrastructure; ownership of the reservoir and the water will always remain within the State. It’s very, very clear that the sole custodian of this is the Department of the Environment. They are the people on whose instructions Dublin City Council acted as the lead player in this process.”

    As for trust in the implementation of water abstraction agreements, he points to his model of sustainable development: the Rutland reservoir in England, operated by a partnership between Anglian Water, the Rutland Wildlife Trust and local authorities. An important part of the deal is that Anglian cannot move water levels without getting the permission of English Nature (the equivalent of Ireland’s Parks & Wildlife department), D’Arcy says.

    He concedes that Bord na Móna has a vested interest in chasing new projects as peat will run out in 10 to 15 years. But there is no doubting his enthusiasm for the achievements of the UK partnership in the Rutland reservoir, which attracts a million visitors a year.

    Whether the eco-park will be enough to pull this plan through the sticky years of consultation is another matter.

    “This could get very hot if people begin to realise what’s at stake,” says Joe O’Donoghue.
    http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/weekend/2010/0724/1224275368134.html


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,284 ✭✭✭dubhthach


    I wonder who will be the modern day's "Brian Boru" to defeat the "Danes" of Dublin corporation. "Cluain Tarbh" is a little to built up these days for a pitched battle.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,037 ✭✭✭Pete_Cavan


    That article is such a load of crap
    The farmers and anglers agree on only a few important points. Both insist the plan will do nothing to alleviate flooding and that it’s cynical to suggest otherwise. They hold Bord na Móna responsible for the silting of the waterways, and finger this as a prime cause of the summer – and some of the winter – flooding.

    It is true that taking the water will not alleviate flooding up stream but why does that matter. The point of this is to provide water for Dublin and the surrounding region. Flooding on the Shannon is a separate issue. Flooding will still be an issue regardless of whether this water is taken or not so this doesnt come into it either way.
    Chairman of the Shannon Protection Alliance (SPA) Martin McEnroe claims, for example, that abstraction of such huge volumes of water would dry up the Inny and Cross rivers, plus all the feeder streams that are “the veins and arteries of Lough Ree, the spawning grounds for all aquatic life in the Shannon”. Michael Silke

    The water is being taken from Lough Derg, which is down stream of Lough Ree so unless we have a change in gravity and the river starts flowing the other way Lough Ree and the aquatic life will be ok. Similarly with feeder streams, they are flowing into the Shannon so taking water from the Shannon does not reduce the amount of water in the feeder stream so they wont dry up.
    Joe O’Donoghue of the Lough Derg Anglers Association, a man who says he has “no vested interest and nothing to gain from the water but the pleasure of being on it”, gets to the nub of the matter: “If water is abstracted, if that pipe goes in at all, we’re lost.” Isn’t that a bit dramatic? “No, it’s not. At that point we would have no control whatever over what was being abstracted.”

    The Shannon is a national resource and the elected officials of this country should have control over what is abstracted, not a bunch of fishermen. Local people and other such stakeholders should absolutely have their input into issues that affect them but say things like "if that pipe goes in at all, we’re lost” is very over dramatic. They are not the only people to be affected by the decision to take water from the Shannon and the amount of water to be taken is relatively small.
    Donal Whelan, who describes himself as “dogsbody secretary” of a fishing group on Lough Derg, notes that initially they were told abstraction would happen in winter time only, “but then they began talking about taking of water ‘that would reflect the flow of the water’ – which is a kind of a ‘get out of jail card’. It’s down the road that people are concerned about.” But this is about much more than angling concerns, says Joe O’Donoghue.

    What is he talking about? Taking of water ‘that would reflect the flow of the water’ is the sensible approach. If they were to only take water in the winter, what happens if you have a dry winter and a wet summer? Or a dry summer followed by a dry winter? It is amazing how some people can take something that is done for their benefit and turn it into something negative.
    “Say an industry was thinking about coming to this area, one that needed a good reliable supply of water. We tick all the boxes here. We have an airport nearby, good roads, a good, educated workforce, but we’ve committed the water to Dublin. So we’re no longer ticking all the boxes. We’re cutting our own throats. We need jobs here too."

    Let me remind you that Dublin pays a disproportionately high level of taxes compared to the rest of the country and so Dublin paid for a lot of your roads and schools. And there will still be plenty of water left for you so if an industry wants to set up beside you the supply of water will not be held against you. Maybe he should concentrate on improving your own area and making it more attractive instead of dragging other areas down.
    “They’ll be examining the Water Framework Directive, the Habitat Directive and the Bird Directive, all to see if the proposal is in conflict with them. The whole of the Shannon is an SAC [Special Area of Conservation] of course.”

    Maybe they should determine if the proposed project will actually have some adverse effects on the Shannon before they condemn it.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 8,048 ✭✭✭Amazotheamazing


    What predictions are saying Dublin will have a population 2.2 million and how reliable are they?

    The point of this plan seems to be to meet a growth of Dublin that was predicted in the good times and not one that exists in a country where mass emigration is again likely, imo.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,284 ✭✭✭dubhthach


    What predictions are saying Dublin will have a population 2.2 million and how reliable are they?

    The point of this plan seems to be to meet a growth of Dublin that was predicted in the good times and not one that exists in a country where mass emigration is again likely, imo.

    Well the supply covers a lot larger area then just Dublin (urban). Basically it covers all of Dublin/Kildare/Wicklow/Meath. This area had a population of 1,662,536 in 2006. Now even from 1950 to 1990 the population increased by 50% within Dublin. This includes the major economic bad times of the 50's/80's. As a capital city Dublin attracts huge proportion of inward investment/jobs. I think there would be less in way of emigration from dublin and if anything more migration from down the country. Even if from the last census to 2030 the population in "old County Dublin/City Dublin" grows by 25% that's an increase of nearly 300k alone. Which pushes the region population to close to 2million.

    Of course with the census next year it will be interesting to see what affects the economic downturn has had on population within the region since 2006.


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