PhD - redundant?

JuliusCaesar · 25-01-2011 7:46pm #1

Am thinking of doing a research PhD....and read this; what do yiz think?

henryporter · 25-01-2011 10:51pm

Interesting reading - had thought about it myself and came to the same conclusions as the article. Plus being out of the labor market for 3-4 years doesn't particularly appeal to me at this time

magneticimpulse · 26-01-2011 1:56am

I'll let you know if its worth it. Did 3 years of research and been trying to motivate myself for the past year to write the thesis. Handed it in before christmas but its been handed back to me, to rewrite the whole thing.

The most demotivating thing ive ever done in my life and has completely turned me off the subject, and everything in life in general. The constant hours of hard work and little rewards. The questions from supervisor...is this all youve done?

Its really really horrible so far...just want it to end. Dont even care if I get it at this stage. Shame as it would have been a waste of 4 years I could have been doing something else.

It in itself is not a difficult job. Its just when you have not so friendly work colleagues who are very negative all the time about your achievements...thats the killer. Was so much happier and enjoyed what I did in industry and not sure if it was a stupid move to give up a full time job to do this only to be finished with it during a huge recession.

Sorry I cant be more positive, but ive had depression and stress from it for the past 2 years and it completely destroyed my relationship....

Squeeonline · 26-01-2011 2:05am

I read that same article when it came out and it has changed my plans slightly. I was going to rush into a PhD as I'm in final year now, but I want to plan things better first. Going to take a year out, get some industrial experience if possible which'll hopefully make me more likely to be accepted on to properly funded PhD programmes.

Having industrial experience will also hopefully make employment in industry easier once I do have to re-enter the real world.

ArtSmart · 26-01-2011 2:12am

as the article suggests, depends on what area you study.

as always, medicine, technology and finance/ business offer better opps.

but the reasons for doing a phd tend to have little consideration re: money.

this article shouldn't sway you one way or t'other.

edit: the biggest issue is financial survival - if you can hack that, that the most of it. - oh, and do something you love/like a lot = golden rule.

Ficheall · 26-01-2011 2:22am

That article doesn't really say much at all...

I'm doing a PhD (maths) and enjoying it, for the most part. Though the writing-up will come very soon and that may be frustrating. Am funded also, so that's a consideration.

Dr Strange · 26-01-2011 11:47am

ArtSmart wrote: »

...
but the reasons for doing a phd tend to have little consideration re: money.

...
- oh, and do something you love/like a lot = golden rule.

This.

When I did my PhD i never thought of it as a way of earning more money. It was the subject that was close to my heart that made me do it.

mystique150 · 26-01-2011 3:57pm

PhD -redundant – I don’t think so. I personally don’t know anyone who is doing a PhD because they think it’s going to make them rich. That’s not what a PhD is about. It’s about working on something that you are passionate about and can’t imagine working a normal 9-5 job as it would just not be as rewarding as your area of research.

As for future prospects? Nowadays, there is more of an emphasis on transferable skills that you learn along with your research. These include writing, communication, organisation, presentation and self motivation. I’ve had opportunities to travel to conferences abroad and present my work to other researchers in the field. I’ve also gotten teaching hours which is also good experience. As for what I’ll do afterwards? I’m not sure, most people these days have very uncertain futures in terms of future prospects but I’m optimistic and don’t mind travelling for future jobs. As my father says “education is no load”.

It’s certainly not for everyone and some of the brightest people would simply refuse to give into the academic bureaucracy that entails a PhD. It involves a level of tenacity and stubbornness that a lot of people are simply not equipped with. I think it’s difficult to know if you really want to do one without actually getting stuck into it and finding out for yourself. I recently read an article about a woman in the states who was the best in her class all the way through school and her college degree. When she enrolled in a PhD she suddenly started to feel really stupid and was not getting the good results that she had previously experienced all throughout her life. Because she felt so demoralised she decided to quit her programme and later became a top lawyer. This is one example of why the smartest people may not necessarily make the best PhD students. This is a failure of the PhD system as it doesn’t always help the brightest in society to succeed.

Financially, it can be a big commitment. I’ve been fortunate to receive funding so am lucky enough to be self sufficient. However, this would not be enough to support a family. I’m fortunate that I’m young and don’t have any commitments but I do know a number of people pursuing PhDs that have children. Life is a lot more complicated for them

In the long run, you will hear from people that will argue from sides but really this decision you should make on your own. It’s obviously good to hear the arguments, but you are ultimately the one that has to live with the choice. Best of luck!

claireeney · 29-01-2011 10:55pm

I went to work in after my masters degree and went in at the bottom of the ladder. I couldnt make decisions about my work, just suggestions which were normally overruled/passed off as other people's ideas. Everyone around me had a PhD and with it more freedom with their work related decisions and increased influence. That's what I wanted so I'm doing a PhD now. I love it, so much stress and disappointment but I know it will be worth it. Im also writing as I go along so it doesnt take me more than a couple of months to finish up.

It's up to you and what you ultimately plan to do. It's working well for me so far but I know some that hated it and left which is unfair really because that place could have been given to someone who really wanted it.

magneticimpulse · 03-02-2011 6:09am

I had the same Research job when I was a graduate as all the other PhDs. I was project manager and had the exact same responsibility as everyone else. At the time I started on £19,000 (which was €30,000 ) at the time. The PhDs were only on £22,000 a year. So I thought it was crazy.

However that company was under contract for Pfizer Sandwich (which is now closing down) and back then the company I worked for closed down. Within 2 weeks of unemployment, I had 2 job offers and a total of 6 interviews. I got offered jobs at the 1st 2 companies. By the time I had the 3rd interview (the next day for another company) I told them I was taking either one of the previous offers. I then "canceled" the 3 other interviews for the other companies as I didnt want to waste their time.

I was in a full time job and it was very stable. I could easily have been still working there today.

However I didnt put much thought into the PhD and went for it. Its been alright. But I am certain that doing a Chemistry PhD in France was not the best options...it was difficult to reject as I got about €35,000 a year just to move abroad and get the grant. Obviously that came with some bonus. But very few people in our Network have finished writing their PhD's. Its very soul destroying. The working day to day is easy. Its the writing at the end which is the killer and having to do corrections.

djpbarry · 03-02-2011 2:53pm

I certainly wouldn’t allow such an article (apparently written by a disillusioned graduate) to influence one’s decision regarding the pursuit of a PhD. Apart from the fact that it’s obviously been written from a monetary value point of view, it’s full of silly anecdotes and generalisations:

Research at one American university found that those who finish are no cleverer than those who do not.
...
...supervisors tend to have little interest in students who are leaving academia
...
One female student spoke of being told of glowing opportunities at the outset, but after seven years of hard slog she was fobbed off with a joke about finding a rich husband.
...
Many of those who embark on a PhD are the smartest in their class and will have been the best at everything they have done. They will have amassed awards and prizes.

The following also grabbed my attention:

Writing lab reports, giving academic presentations and conducting six-month literature reviews can be surprisingly unhelpful in a world where technical knowledge has to be assimilated quickly and presented simply to a wide audience...

...while of course research has absolutely nothing to do with assimilating technical knowledge and effectively communicating same to others.

The main point to take away from that article is just because the author feels her PhD was a waste of time, doesn’t mean all PhD’s are. I’d also add that (although it’s already been said) anyone who goes into research to make money is (generally) an idiot – far more money can be made far more quickly and easily in other professions.

pwd · 03-02-2011 3:14pm

djpbarry wrote: »

I certainly wouldn’t allow such an article (apparently written by a disillusioned graduate) to influence one’s decision regarding the pursuit of a PhD. Apart from the fact that it’s obviously been written from a monetary value point of view, it’s full of silly anecdotes and generalisations:
The following also grabbed my attention:
...while of course research has absolutely nothing to do with assimilating technical knowledge and effectively communicating same to others.

The main point to take away from that article is just because the author feels her PhD was a waste of time, doesn’t mean all PhD’s are. I’d also add that (although it’s already been said) anyone who goes into research to make money is (generally) an idiot – far more money can be made far more quickly and easily in other professions.

Yes.
Saying a PhD is redundant is talking about a very very broad subject in very very narrow terms (money).
A less dramatic and more sensible argument would be that a PhD is not necessarily worth the time and effort, depending on what you do in it, what your situation is, and what your objectives are.

Turbulent Bill · 23-02-2011 6:17pm

There's some truth in article from an academic perspective - far too many PhDs are chasing the tiny number of faculty jobs available. The traditional PhD-lecturer-professor route is almost closed off unless you're a really exceptional candidate (as it should be) and are lucky enough to be in the right place at the right time.

I did my PhD (engineering) purely because I was interested in the subject and wanted to stretch myself academically. I finished my undergrad in the boom and could have walked into a well-paid job, so it certainly wasn't for the money! It's a massive commitment and you rarely get a second chance to do one. My perspective was always to do it as a stand-alone project rather than a stepping-stone to academia. The company I work for now has many PhDs, and I probably wouldn't have got in the door without one.

adamski8 · 23-02-2011 6:26pm

totally worth doing one, you are called doctor afterward!

Zapho · 23-02-2011 6:35pm

I'd agree with most of the opinions on this thread. I'm doing a phdin engineering, I've handed in my thesis and I'm waiting for the viva at the moment. I have no regrets for pursuing it - handing in thesis left me with an enormous sense of achievement. Thats not to say that it was easy - on the contrary, I never believed I was capable of such an amount of work. Also, you couldn't have put together a better job description for me. It suited me down to the ground.

Like most, I agree with the idea that you don't do a phd for money - you do it because you're passionate about a subject and you are a highly self-motivated person.

Zardoz · 23-02-2011 6:37pm

As someone who has studied and worked in Academia for over 10 years I'd agree with most of the article .

djpbarry · 23-02-2011 8:45pm

Zardoz wrote: »

As someone who has studied and worked in Academia for over 10 years I'd agree with most of the article .

...because?

Sarn · 23-02-2011 10:37pm

It really depends on what your PhD is in. I did a research PhD mainly because I enjoyed the area of research and enjoyed working in a lab. My other consideration was that when I got a job I didn't want to take the chance of having my career progression restricted or be required to go back and do a PhD in the future. If you're competing for a job with all things being equal but for a PhD, it could land you that job.

In my case, I wouldn't be in my current role without my PhD as it is in a similar area. As a consequence it is a job I enjoy (not lab based). Now saying that, I've been fortunate in the career oportunities that have come my way. I think there can be some initial difficulty in the job market after getting a PhD, as it can be difficult getting a job without industry experience, but once that initial hurdle is passed it gets a lot easier.

IRWolfie- · 14-03-2011 10:35pm

With PhD's in technical areas you can learn good technical skills that can be useful for employers. Obviously a PhD in the humanities for example would mostly be an economic waste of time.

Dan_Solo · 14-03-2011 10:41pm

Of course most medics most certainly DO do their postgraduate degree precisely for the money. They couldn't be consultants these days without it and the fact is the majority of them either hate research or see it as a soft option for an "academic" day (= day off) once a week.

opinion guy · 16-03-2011 3:34pm

Dan_Solo wrote: »

Of course most medics most certainly DO do their postgraduate degree precisely for the money. They couldn't be consultants these days without it and the fact is the majority of them either hate research or see it as a soft option for an "academic" day (= day off) once a week.

Most medics do research on a fulltime basis and take a break in their career to do so. The one I know who does a split week like you are suggesting is a prolifically hard worker in both clinical and nonclinical endeavors.

Dan_Solo · 16-03-2011 9:26pm

opinion guy wrote: »

Most medics do research on a fulltime basis and take a break in their career to do so. The one I know who does a split week like you are suggesting is a prolifically hard worker in both clinical and nonclinical endeavors.

Nicely phrased.
Most medics do exactly that for two or three years so they can get their consultant position and then never touch research again in their lives. If you had €200,000 coming your way at the end of it, I reckon you'd put in the hours for a few years too!

opinion guy · 17-03-2011 12:14am

Dan_Solo wrote: »

Nicely phrased.
Most medics do exactly that for two or three years so they can get their consultant position and then never touch research again in their lives. If you had €200,000 coming your way at the end of it, I reckon you'd put in the hours for a few years too!

Dan_Solo wrote: »

Of course most medics most certainly DO do their postgraduate degree precisely for the money. They couldn't be consultants these days without it and the fact is the majority of them either hate research or see it as a soft option for an "academic" day (= day off) once a week.

Seems to me you are disagreeing with yourself

Dan_Solo · 17-03-2011 10:44pm

opinion guy wrote: »

Seems to me you are disagreeing with yourself

Tell me how.
(you won't be able you know);)

opinion guy · 17-03-2011 11:21pm

This bold part of this statement:

Dan Solo wrote:

They couldn't be consultants these days without it and the fact is the majority of them either hate research or see it as a soft option for an "academic" day (= day off) once a week.

directly contradicts the bold part of this confirmation:

Dan Solo wrote:

Most medics do exactly that for two or three years so they can get their consultant position and then never touch research again in their lives. If you had €200,000 coming your way at the end of it, I reckon you'd put in the hours for a few years too!

QED.

Dan_Solo · 18-03-2011 12:56am

opinion guy wrote: »

This bold part of this statement:

directly contradicts the bold part of this confirmation:

QED.

The first is when they are consultants.
The second is when they are in training to be a consultant.
No contradiction.
QED.

maupat · 30-08-2011 2:34pm

IRWolfie- wrote: »

With PhD's in technical areas you can learn good technical skills that can be useful for employers. Obviously a PhD in the humanities for example would mostly be an economic waste of time.

Just wondering why you think a PhD in humanities would be an economic waste of time? There are PhDs which, while humanities-based, have a digital or technical element too - would such programmes be a waste of time also?

Interested to hear your reasons on both

Chi Force · 20-09-2011 10:30pm

As someone starting a PhD in Law, this thread is worrying me. I am unsure of any funding and, actually, I don't even know where to start. All I've done is registered and now... nothing. How much better off would I be just walking away?:(

djpbarry · 21-09-2011 9:04am

Chi Force wrote: »

As someone starting a PhD in Law, this thread is worrying me. I am unsure of any funding and, actually, I don't even know where to start. All I've done is registered and now... nothing. How much better off would I be just walking away?:(

Not much point walking away at this stage - at least give it a shot! Everyone gets cold feet when they're about to start a new job. But anyway, how do you mean you're "unsure of funding"?

Chi Force · 22-09-2011 1:49pm

djpbarry wrote: »

But anyway, how do you mean you're "unsure of funding"?

I actually mean I'm sure of no funding this year and there's a possibility of some next year!:o However, this is obviously performance dependent and who knows how that'll work out!

2Scoops · 22-09-2011 5:15pm

Chi Force wrote: »

I actually mean I'm sure of no funding this year and there's a possibility of some next year!:o However, this is obviously performance dependent and who knows how that'll work out!

There is no way on Earth I would do a PhD for free. Funding is out there, so either you are being exploited or your research just isn't worthwhile. Remember that it's a skilled role, working for someone else usually, that already requires some sacrifice, so a living wage should be expected.

As to whether a PhD in general is worth doing... if you want a career in academic law, then stay. If your ultimate goal is to practice law professionally, walk away now and get a job.

IRWolfie- · 20-11-2011 4:04pm

maupat wrote: »

Just wondering why you think a PhD in humanities would be an economic waste of time? There are PhDs which, while humanities-based, have a digital or technical element too - would such programmes be a waste of time also?

Interested to hear your reasons on both

I know I'm probably performing necromancy by resurrecting this thread but: The question for me would be whether the technical elements of a humanities PhD actually make you any more desirable to an employeer above everyone else.

Kevster · 17-03-2012 11:16pm

I must be the exception then ... I started my PhD in cancer studies at the Uni of Leicester in January 2010 and I will possibly be submitting my thesis in 1 week. I have three publications from my work (highest journal impact factor of just under 14) and I have already started as a Research Associate in my group.

I thrive on the research and - yes - I do the 10 hour days, every day, and don't moan. Having so much success is not solely due to 'luck'. I work very hard at what I do and love it.

While saying this, I am a bit upset at how many PhDs are given out and how apparently 'easy' it is to get one. Universities here in the UK receive a lot of money from non-EU students coming to do their doctorates (upward of 20,000GBP per year). Supervisors then feel pressured, I believe, to award the doctorate even if the work isn't that great.

For me, getting a PhD is the end of the line as a student... it's like completing the race that began when I first went to school when I was 4.

Take care
Kevin

djpbarry · 18-03-2012 12:21am

Kevster wrote: »

While saying this, I am a bit upset at how many PhDs are given out and how apparently 'easy' it is to get one.

In terms of employment prospects for PhD graduates, it doesn't really matter, because prospective employers are not really going to be all that interested in the "Dr." before your name - they'll want to know what you've actually done. Not all PhDs are equal.

Kevster wrote: »

For me, getting a PhD is the end of the line as a student...

Oh, I really don't know about that. If you're going to continue in research, then the learning never stops!

Woodward · 16-06-2012 12:41pm

I'm due to start a PhD soon and I would advise anyone thinking about doing one to get some industrial experience first. I was lucky to have a placement during my degree and the 6 months in industry cemented my opinion that research is the only thing that suits me.

Montrealer · 20-06-2012 7:06am

Depends on what field it is, I guess. I'm doing mine in Political Science, and I've discovered that it's about the most useless thing I've done in my life. It's also been a very traumatizing and discouraging experience...

ancapailldorcha · 21-06-2012 10:44pm

Woodward wrote: »

I'm due to start a PhD soon and I would advise anyone thinking about doing one to get some industrial experience first. I was lucky to have a placement during my degree and the 6 months in industry cemented my opinion that research is the only thing that suits me.

I'm still looking for one myself. I have a small amount of industry experience but I'm finding a lot of funding bodies are insisting that one be resident in the UK for 3 years to qualify for funding.

PhD - redundant?

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