Only 3,200 graduates apply for €30,000 state jobs

waster81 · 14-02-2012 11:25am #1

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/only-3200-graduates-apply-for-30000-state-jobs-3015860.html

Given we hear how cushy a number the public service is, how generous the pay and pensions is compared to the private sector

Why is it that we have such a low number of graduates looking to enter the public service

Is the pay lower than what they could get in the private sector
Is there no sense of public duty/service

Anyone offer an explanation

godtabh · 14-02-2012 11:28am

waster81 wrote: »

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/only-3200-graduates-apply-for-30000-state-jobs-3015860.html

Given we hear how cushy a number the public service is, how generous the pay and pensions is compared to the private sector

Why is it that we have such a low number of graduates looking to enter the public service

Is the pay lower than what they could get in the private sector
Is there no sense of public duty/service

Anyone offer an explanation

Maybe people don't want to work in a tense atmosphere where unions rule under the constant sniping of the public and government.

Oafley Jones · 14-02-2012 11:30am

Where were they advertised?

n97 mini · 14-02-2012 11:32am

I'm amazed that they can't find people to redeploy from other areas into these jobs under the CPA.

mini_cooper · 14-02-2012 11:35am

I applied for the graduate position as mentioned on http://www.independent.ie/national-n...s-3015860.html.

I am a recent graduate applying for anything that seems relevant to my field.

Perhaps many graduates are thinking of moving to Australia etc.

Paulzx · 14-02-2012 11:40am

n97 mini wrote: »

I'm amazed that they can't find people to redeploy from other areas into these jobs under the CPA.

Thats not the question asked.

Why have so few people applied when we're told day after day that jobs are like hens teeth and public service jobs are cushy, gold plated, sit around all day and scratch your arse etc. etc.

We have 450,000 people unemployed(most through no fault of their own).

I find it hard to believe that only 3000 are qualified to apply

donalg1 · 14-02-2012 11:41am

They dont want them because they dont think the job is good enough for them and are instead only interested in working in the Private Sector for company with a big name, but in three or four years wherever they are they will be giving out about how great the Public Sector worker has it and how its not fair, probably!!

Paulzx · 14-02-2012 11:42am

...

Dannyboy83 · 14-02-2012 11:45am

waster81 wrote: »

Anyone offer an explanation

Badly advertised?
Certain pre-requisites?
Deadline too early?

I considered a one a few months ago, but I would have had to move to Dublin, which ruled it out for me.

Given the various factors, it doesn't seem like a particularly bad turnout, but then I don't know what it was like in previous years.

seamus · 14-02-2012 11:47am

Only 3,200 applications? That's not a small number.

The most likely reason for this is simply a lack of qualifications. More people than ever are staying on in college for masters and doctorates, and the vast bulk of our 450,000 unemployed are still people who worked in construction and similar sectors - these would largely have either no 3rd-level qualifications, or very specific qualifications such as architecture or law, so would not be appropriate candidates for a CS job.

The PS is legendary for rejecting applicants who don't meet the criteria exactly (maybe it's a myth, but it's the general perception), so lots of people would look at a job spec and not waste their time applying if they don't fit it exactly.

Sleepy · 14-02-2012 11:49am

I'd say a lack of advertising is the main explanation for this tbh.

Like n97 mini says, I'd have expected such positions to be filled from redeployment and every dog in the street knows that there's a hiring freeze on in the broader public sector. Since I didn't even hear anyone giving out about such a recruitment drive on here (as in there was no "why the hell are we hiring more civil servants?!!?" thread), and certainly didn't see the jobs advertised how would I (or most of the unemployed) have even known about the positions.

Besides that? Well 30k wouldn't be a high enough wage to attract anyone attempting to support a family off of our overly generous welfare system.

There's also no mention in the article as to how many jobs were advertised. If it's only a handful a job-seeker could be forgiven for not bothering since we're accustomed to Fianna Fail rule and "it's hardly worth the price of a stamp when some TD's niece/nephew will get the job anyway..."

GetWithIt · 14-02-2012 11:50am

At a time of much lower unemployment rates, it attracted over 2,000 applicants.

How many did they expect to apply? It's not McDonalds you know.

Dannyboy83 · 14-02-2012 11:53am

Paulzx wrote: »

Thats not the question asked.

It's a relevant point however.

We have 450,000 people unemployed(most through no fault of their own).
I find it hard to believe that only 3000 are qualified to apply

Why do you find that hard to believe?
It might make sense if every human had the same skill set......I suppose

Job changes by sector (and current sector share of labour force), 2004-2011

Compare to where 6000 people applied for 100 retail jobs in Cork:
http://www.examiner.ie/breakingnews/ireland/ms-receives-6000-applications-for-100-jobs-479842.html

Cuddlesworth · 14-02-2012 11:53am

As far as people are aware there is a ban on hiring in the public sector. There are also no advertised roles on the normal job sites, so out of reach of those that don't scan http://www.publicjobs.ie regularly. I'd say that's the biggest issue.

waster81 · 14-02-2012 11:59am

Cuddlesworth wrote: »

As far as people are aware there is a ban on hiring in the public sector. There are also no advertised roles on the normal job sites, so out of reach of those that don't scan http://www.publicjobs.ie regularly. I'd say that's the biggest issue.

I would have thought that if I were unemplyed and looking for a job, then I would be checking every possible site, newspaper etc

waster81 · 14-02-2012 12:02pm

Sleepy wrote: »

I'd say a lack of advertising is the main explanation for this tbh.

Like n97 mini says, I'd have expected such positions to be filled from redeployment and every dog in the street knows that there's a hiring freeze on in the broader public sector. Since I didn't even hear anyone giving out about such a recruitment drive on here (as in there was no "why the hell are we hiring more civil servants?!!?" thread), and certainly didn't see the jobs advertised how would I (or most of the unemployed) have even known about the positions.

Besides that? Well 30k wouldn't be a high enough wage to attract anyone attempting to support a family off of our overly generous welfare system.

There's also no mention in the article as to how many jobs were advertised. If it's only a handful a job-seeker could be forgiven for not bothering since we're accustomed to Fianna Fail rule and "it's hardly worth the price of a stamp when some TD's niece/nephew will get the job anyway..."

Previous poster claimed that the graduates didnt have the requisite skill set, so those in the civil service from other departments are expected to have those skills

What if the skills were not available in other departments, there would no sense in redeploying them if they hadnt the required skills

So €30k isnt enough incentive, you think we should pay them more or just cut the social welfare ( what figure had you in mind)

The fianna fail thing is just an excuse and adds nothing to the discussion

But its off topic, because here we have a number of jobs in the public service that may/cant be filled by existing members and so far we have had

- It wasnt well advertised ( or people didnt look hard enough )
- 30k isnt enough to attract people to work ( despite we constantly told there are thousands of people looking to take jobs in the public service , if only we could get rid of some of the wasters
- There's a lack of qualifications
- Few myths thrown in for good measure
- Oh and dublin is too far away ( heaven forbid you might have to travel for your first job, there was a programme on where people travelled from limerick every day back and forth for a job, I guess if you really wanna a job you would do anything

But lets get back on script and continue telling us whats wrong with the public service

waster81 · 14-02-2012 12:03pm

seamus wrote: »

Only 3,200 applications? That's not a small number.

The most likely reason for this is simply a lack of qualifications. More people than ever are staying on in college for masters and doctorates, and the vast bulk of our 450,000 unemployed are still people who worked in construction and similar sectors - these would largely have either no 3rd-level qualifications, or very specific qualifications such as architecture or law, so would not be appropriate candidates for a CS job.

The PS is legendary for rejecting applicants who don't meet the criteria exactly (maybe it's a myth, but it's the general perception), so lots of people would look at a job spec and not waste their time applying if they don't fit it exactly.

Myths more myths

the_syco · 14-02-2012 12:08pm

waster81 wrote: »

I would have thought that if I were unemplyed and looking for a job, then I would be checking every possible site, newspaper etc

If you were told that there was a RECRUITMENT FREEZE happening at a company, would you apply to it? Some people try to keep positive, and if there's a RECRUITMENT FREEZE happening, you'd assume you'd get a PFO letter, so many wouldn't apply.

Does anyone know what the position minimum requirements are, and if it was advertised at all? Also, how many non-graduates applied?

Graduates with qualifications in human resources, law, accountancy, economics, finance/banking and tax policy were invited to apply.

Is €30k good or bad for people who did well in "law, accountancy, economics, finance/banking and tax policy"?

Chucky the tree · 14-02-2012 12:10pm

How many job were advertised?

Sleepy · 14-02-2012 12:14pm

waster81 wrote: »

I would have thought that if I were unemplyed and looking for a job, then I would be checking every possible site, newspaper etc

Did you see these jobs advertised in the paper? Mentioned in discourse anywhere? I didn't.

Previous poster claimed that the graduates didnt have the requisite skill set, so those in the civil service from other departments are expected to have those skills

What if the skills were not available in other departments, there would no sense in redeploying them if they hadnt the required skills

The requirements appear to be for admin roles. Hmmm, let me think for a second. What public sector body do we have that's compleltely bloated by admin staff... HSE anyone?

So €30k isnt enough incentive, you think we should pay them more or just cut the social welfare ( what figure had you in mind)

For many, it won't be. Welfare entitlements for the nuclear family living in rented accommodation would be in region of 40k between rent allowance, JSB, medical card etc. It's off-topic but, yes, I'd cut welfare and I'd scrap the rent allowance scheme replacing it with a centralised system where the government rented the houses directly (allowing them to use their market power to reduce their costs - and the level of residential rents in general - considerably).

Back on topic, since many of our job-seekers would be worse off than their current situation if the were to get one of these positions, that limits the candidates who'll apply to single people or job seekers whose partner is working i.e. it'll be a second income.

The fianna fail thing is just an excuse and adds nothing to the discussion

You asked why job-seekers weren't applying for these positions and, while I'd agree with you that it's a silly reason for someone not to apply if the knew of the jobs and were qualified to do them, after 15 years of Fianna Fail's cronyism, it's the only labour market many are used to: public jobs are "for the boys". It wouldn't stop me applying (and suing if a less qualified candidate with family connections got the job) but I can see it stopping someone who's already disheartened by the dismal jobs market.

Sleepy · 14-02-2012 12:18pm

waster81 wrote: »

But lets get back on script and continue telling us whats wrong with the public service

Ah, we get to the kernel of the thread: you weren't asking a genuine question, your persecution complex saw the newspaper headline and thought "oh, here's something I can throw back against those evil public-sector bashers on boards.ie" and now want to dismiss the valid theories put forth as to why the application rate wasn't higher as myths because they don't suit your world-view.

dillo2k10 · 14-02-2012 12:18pm

waster81 wrote: »

Anyone offer an explanation

Maybe they don't want to have to listen to everyone in the private sector constantly complaining about them and their public sector jobs?

BornToKill · 14-02-2012 12:21pm

Sleepy wrote: »

Did you see these jobs advertised in the paper? Mentioned in discourse anywhere? I didn't.

Yes, I saw a large ad in the newspaper about three weeks or so ago. They were also advertised on publicjobs.ie. With that site, you don't even need to on it to check. You can sign up for email alerts if anything you're interested in gets advertised. I don't consider 3,200 a poor response at all.

Sala · 14-02-2012 12:26pm

I applied for the AO competition in 2007/2008 I think it was just as the moratorium kicked in but this time I didn't. They have changed the criteria. It used to be a general graduate entry route in - now they have specified different types of qualifications so it's more restrictive (especially for arts grads!) I think when I applied I heard around 5000 sat the exam so I am surprised heres not more, but maybe there is not enough law, accountancy, economics etc graduates looking for a job....
I emailed it to people I know who might want to apply and none had seen it so I'd say advertising was a big issue. Apparently it only went up on the Law Society vacancies section the day before the deadline

murphaph · 14-02-2012 1:20pm

3,200 is already a 60% increase in applicants compared to the last round of hiring and given that the requirements were stricter this time round, we can safely assume it could have been a 100% increase had they not been as strict.

If the jobs can be filled by anyone, then surely they should have been filled by HSE staff under the CPA. If they cannot be filled by anyone, then that suggests that many of the unemployed also fail to meet the requirements, hence no need to apply.

It's a non-thread tbh. The OP's agenda is clear, but the 60% increase in applications alone rubbishes his entire position.

The Indo and almost every article that comes out of it is also usually roundly condemned as tripe by the PS contingent on here, includng the OP IIRC, so what makes this article any different?

Godge · 14-02-2012 1:48pm

seamus wrote: »

Only 3,200 applications? That's not a small number.

The most likely reason for this is simply a lack of qualifications. More people than ever are staying on in college for masters and doctorates, and the vast bulk of our 450,000 unemployed are still people who worked in construction and similar sectors - these would largely have either no 3rd-level qualifications, or very specific qualifications such as architecture or law, so would not be appropriate candidates for a CS job.

The PS is legendary for rejecting applicants who don't meet the criteria exactly (maybe it's a myth, but it's the general perception), so lots of people would look at a job spec and not waste their time applying if they don't fit it exactly.

Rubbish - the minimum qualification for a job as administrative officer is an honours primary degree so lack of qualification is not the issue. See information below.

http://gradireland.com/careers-advice/job-descriptions/civil-service-administratormanager

Just last year we heard of 91,000 unemployed graduates - see below.

http://free-education.info/usi-launches-plan-to-tackle-record-high-of-91000-unemployed-graduates/

So where are the 88,000?

Have they all got jobs?
Have they all emigrated?
Are they picky and choosy and is the civil service beneath them?
Are they incompetent at looking for jobs?

P.S. The civil service follows the most rigourous recruitment procedures in Ireland, see the following link for information. So I don't know what legends you are hearing but they are probably fairytales.

http://www.cpsa.ie/Default.aspx?SID=39&SSID=0

seamus · 14-02-2012 2:01pm

Godge wrote: »

Just last year we heard of 91,000 unemployed graduates - see below.

How many of them have first or second class honours degrees? You claim that lack of qualification is an issue - how do you know? "Graduate" covers anyone with a FETAC qualification between levels 6 and 10, but the job spec specifically looks for a level 8 or better.

I have a degree, but not an honours degree. Even though I'm massively overqualified for an administrative position in the CS, if I saw a job advertisement looking specifically for an honours degree with first or second class honours, I wouldn't waste my time applying because as far as I've heard, the CS will bin my application for not meeting the minimum requirement.

Maybe if I was unemployed I might be more inclined to send it in because, "what harm" but on a typical job hunt I wouldn't bother.

I'm kind of wondering though what the question is here? Do you actually think that 3,200 applications for a small number of poorly advertised positions is very few? Do you think that all 450,000 unemployed should have thrown their hat into the ring?

BornToKill · 14-02-2012 2:10pm

Godge wrote: »

Rubbish - the minimum qualification for a job as administrative officer is an honours primary degree so lack of qualification is not the issue. See information below.

But this was not a general competition where any honours primary degree qualified a graduate to apply. The degree, as pointed out already, had to have been in certain specified disciplines such as economics, law, finance, HR, etc.

Godge · 14-02-2012 2:11pm

seamus wrote: »

How many of them have first or second class honours degrees? You claim that lack of qualification is an issue - how do you know? "Graduate" covers anyone with a FETAC qualification between levels 6 and 10, but the job spec specifically looks for a level 8 or better.

I have a degree, but not an honours degree. Even though I'm massively overqualified for an administrative position in the CS, if I saw a job advertisement looking specifically for an honours degree with first or second class honours, I wouldn't waste my time applying because as far as I've heard, the CS will bin my application for not meeting the minimum requirement.

Maybe if I was unemployed I might be more inclined to send it in because, "what harm" but on a typical job hunt I wouldn't bother.

I'm kind of wondering though what the question is here? Do you actually think that 3,200 applications for a small number of poorly advertised positions is very few? Do you think that all 450,000 unemployed should have thrown their hat into the ring?

You are not massively overqualified for an administrative position in the civil service, you are underqualified and probably not capable of holding down an administrative officer job.

You might be ok for a basic entry clerical officer job with those qualifications.

The positions were not poorly advertised and I was only asking about the missing 88,000 not the 450,000.

waster81 · 14-02-2012 2:16pm

Sleepy wrote: »

Did you see these jobs advertised in the paper? Mentioned in discourse anywhere? I didn't.

The requirements appear to be for admin roles. Hmmm, let me think for a second. What public sector body do we have that's compleltely bloated by admin staff... HSE anyone?

For many, it won't be. Welfare entitlements for the nuclear family living in rented accommodation would be in region of 40k between rent allowance, JSB, medical card etc. It's off-topic but, yes, I'd cut welfare and I'd scrap the rent allowance scheme replacing it with a centralised system where the government rented the houses directly (allowing them to use their market power to reduce their costs - and the level of residential rents in general - considerably).

Back on topic, since many of our job-seekers would be worse off than their current situation if the were to get one of these positions, that limits the candidates who'll apply to single people or job seekers whose partner is working i.e. it'll be a second income.

You asked why job-seekers weren't applying for these positions and, while I'd agree with you that it's a silly reason for someone not to apply if the knew of the jobs and were qualified to do them, after 15 years of Fianna Fail's cronyism, it's the only labour market many are used to: public jobs are "for the boys". It wouldn't stop me applying (and suing if a less qualified candidate with family connections got the job) but I can see it stopping someone who's already disheartened by the dismal jobs market.

Well I'm not looking for a job so wasnt actively looking, but if I were I would look at every available source ( and it was advertised in the papers)

Not all the jobs are admin - where did you see that

So now we have another reason why some are unemployed - what % cant/wont work for €30k

And the other myth- is not worth replying to

You throw up arguments that in reality are false - but only try and justify your stance

seamus · 14-02-2012 2:18pm

Godge wrote: »

You are not massively overqualified for an administrative position in the civil service, you are underqualified and probably not capable of holding down an administrative officer job.

I think you've just proven my point about how much stock the CS puts in a piece of paper to determine a candidate's ability. You have no idea what I am or am not qualified for, yet you've decided because I don't have an honours degree that I'm incapable of being an administrative officer in the CS.

waster81 · 14-02-2012 2:20pm

murphaph wrote: »

3,200 is already a 60% increase in applicants compared to the last round of hiring and given that the requirements were stricter this time round, we can safely assume it could have been a 100% increase had they not been as strict.

If the jobs can be filled by anyone, then surely they should have been filled by HSE staff under the CPA. If they cannot be filled by anyone, then that suggests that many of the unemployed also fail to meet the requirements, hence no need to apply.

It's a non-thread tbh. The OP's agenda is clear, but the 60% increase in applications alone rubbishes his entire position.

The Indo and almost every article that comes out of it is also usually roundly condemned as tripe by the PS contingent on here, includng the OP IIRC, so what makes this article any different?

When was the last round of hiring completed - pre or post crisis

A link to the 60% increase would be nice

Its not a non - thread is a discussion on reasons why we only have 3200 applying for jobs and the reasons why

I find it hard to believe that we dont have graduates with the required skill sets

sarumite · 14-02-2012 2:31pm

waster81 wrote: »

When was the last round of hiring completed - pre or post crisis

A link to the 60% increase would be nice

October 2008 - post crisis

I assume the 60% was taken from this article

waster81 wrote: »

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/only-3200-graduates-apply-for-30000-state-jobs-3015860.html

"The last recruitment campaign for administrative officers was in October 2008 and was aimed at general graduates.
At a time of much lower unemployment rates, it attracted over 2,000 applicants."

relax carry on · 14-02-2012 2:35pm

Anyone with an interest in working in the Public Sector should've known about the Public Jobs website, as its been the access point for years. If they hadn't signed up for the email alerts, then they should have scanned the site regularly.
General jobseekers who may never have considered a career in the Public sector, should have as a matter of course signed up to any jobsite, including the public job website. Hearing news reports about the moritorium on recruitment is one thing, checking out the truth for yourself is another.

The AO grade from the public jobs website is "a vital role and as Administrative Officer you are involved in the formation of the policies and strategies that improve our economic, financial, international, environmental and social issues. You will be assigned to a parent Government Department/Office"

http://www.publicjobs.ie/publicjobs/advice/career/profile.htm

In the past, this grade seems to have aimed at general graduates. But as things have changed lately, this round of recruitment was targeted at specific graduates thereby reducing the numbers who could apply. The number of applicants most likely reflect those qualified to apply.

sarumite · 14-02-2012 2:43pm

relax carry on wrote: »

Anyone with an interest in working in the Public Sector should've known about the Public Jobs website, as its been the access point for years. If they hadn't signed up for the email alerts, then they should have scanned the site regularly.
General jobseekers who may never have considered a career in the Public sector, should have as a matter of course signed up to any jobsite, including the public job website.

I was looking for a job last year. I signed up to several jobsite at which point my inbox was flooded, most of which is absolute junk . After a while you learn to pick and choose carefully. Its not a case of wanting to be selective, but having to be selective. Wading through the crap emails takes up too much time and saps your energy which is better focused at looking at genuine leads. They say you should always work smart, not necessarily hard. The same applies when you are looking for a job.

galway2007 · 14-02-2012 2:54pm

Paulzx wrote: »

Thats not the question asked.

Why have so few people applied when we're told day after day that jobs are like hens teeth and public service jobs are cushy, gold plated, sit around all day and scratch your arse etc. etc.

We have 450,000 people unemployed(most through no fault of their own).

I find it hard to believe that only 3000 are qualified to apply

Because Irish people believe everything there hear on RTE and in the Irish independent but they find out the truth when they go to apply for public sector jobs
The great pension that we hear about mean that I have to draw the pension for 18 year before I get back what I have paid into it ( I have to live to 84) but yet some idiots think I am getting it for free.
As I have said before I need money now not when I am 84 so give me back what I have paid in and take away the “GOLD PLATED PENSION"

Sleepy · 14-02-2012 3:18pm

waster81 wrote: »

Well I'm not looking for a job so wasnt actively looking, but if I were I would look at every available source ( and it was advertised in the papers)

Fair enough, I'd be the same if I was out of work but as others have mentioned on thread, friends of theirs who the job would have suited never saw the ad and most of us were unaware of them. How many job seekers even bother with publicjobs since there's a hiring freeze across the PS. Taking a look at it today, the jobs that are advertised are for *extremely* specific posts that it's safe to say the majority of our live register aren't qualified to apply for (Consultant Radiologist, Director of XYZ for ABC Quango etc.)

I've often questioned the value of publicjobs.ie tbh. Seems a very large overhead to run and maintain versus simply placing a few ads in the standard job sites. No figures to hand and perhaps a topic for another thread but were figures available it'd be interesting to see if it pays it's way or is just another example of government waste and jobs for the boys.

Not all the jobs are admin - where did you see that

article you linked to wrote:

the permanent and pensionable jobs will be at adminsitrative-officer grade

What else would an administrative-officer in the the civil service (an institute whose sole purpose is to administrate) do beyond administration?

So now we have another reason why some are unemployed - what % cant/wont work for €30k

I don't know. With access to the DSP database I should be able to tell you in about 15 minutes flat but I can't imagine they'll let me have that access. Actually, no, I'd need access to the HSE's data too so make that an hour with copies of both sets of data. Since they won't even share it between themselves, I can't see an external data consultant being let near it! Logically however:

The net salary for the jobs in question would be €25,278.

Benefit|Rate|freq|Annual
Rent Allowance|€925|month|€11,100
less personal contrib|€35|week|€1,820
|||€9,280
Dole - Claimant|€188|week|€9,776
Dole - Partner|€124.80|week|€6,490
Dole - Child 1|€29.80|week|€1,550
Dole - Child 2|€29.80|week|€1,550
|||€28,645

So at current welfare rates, family of four renting in Dublin get benefits well in excess of that salary before we even factor in the monetary benefit of a medical card, back to school / communion payments, reduced transport, clothing and ancillary costs of being in employment (staff collections, work nights out, occasional tea/coffess/lunches when you've forgotten to make one etc.)

The same is true of positions in the private sector however, so this simply illustrates why *SOME* people won't apply for these positions. Others may have no interest in *any* job. (see the 150k unemployed/unemployables we had all the way through the boom).

And the other myth- is not worth replying to

You throw up arguments that in reality are false - but only try and justify your stance

You've not proven any of my arguments false. You've dismissed them out of hand.

I've personally been told that a job I was being offered would have to go up on publicjobs "but sure, that would only be a formality" so I wouldn't blame people for being sceptical of government hiring processes. I'd think their actions foolish if they didn't apply for jobs for which they were qualified but I could understand them feeling the jobs weren't worth applying to when I've personal experience of these jobs being advertised to follow the rules rather than to gather candidates.

Fussgangerzone · 14-02-2012 3:26pm

Godge wrote: »

Rubbish - the minimum qualification for a job as administrative officer is an honours primary degree so lack of qualification is not the issue. See information below.

http://gradireland.com/careers-advice/job-descriptions/civil-service-administratormanager

Just last year we heard of 91,000 unemployed graduates - see below.

http://free-education.info/usi-launches-plan-to-tackle-record-high-of-91000-unemployed-graduates/

So where are the 88,000?

Would you read TFA?

Graduates with qualifications in human resources, law, accountancy, economics, finance/banking and tax policy were invited to apply.

That's going to rule out most of your 88,000.

So if I rock up with my HND, they'd politely tell me to **** off. Happily, I'm currently employed in the private sector, which I actually consider safer than the public sector, as it's a) not under constant attack and b) not solely providing services to nations subject to delusional austerity policies

Fussgangerzone · 14-02-2012 3:38pm

Sleepy wrote: »

The net salary for the jobs in question would be €25,278.

Benefit|Rate|freq|Annual
Rent Allowance|€925|month|€11,100
less personal contrib|€35|week|€1,820
|||€9,280
Dole - Claimant|€188|week|€9,776
Dole - Partner|€124.80|week|€6,490
Dole - Child 1|€29.80|week|€1,550
Dole - Child 2|€29.80|week|€1,550
|||€28,645

So at current welfare rates, family of four renting in Dublin get benefits well in excess of that salary before we even factor in the monetary benefit of a medical card, back to school / communion payments, reduced transport, clothing and ancillary costs of being in employment (staff collections, work nights out, occasional tea/coffess/lunches when you've forgotten to make one etc.)

I dunno, I heard a vicious rumour that more than one person per couple are allowed work. What's €25,278 times 2 again? Is it €50,556? I think it is.

Add to that the famous pensions, and that family make a lot more money working. As everybody knows

schemingbohemia · 14-02-2012 3:38pm

Sleepy wrote: »

What else would an administrative-officer in the the civil service (an institute whose sole purpose is to administrate) do beyond administration?

I don't know.

You obviously have no knowledge of what AO's actually do. They don't administrate they assist in forming policy within Departments. The targetting of specialised qualifications this time around sets this process apart from previous competitions.

I was surprised at the low number of applicants. I remember (old timer waffle alert) applying for a librarian assistant job in Trinity back in 1993 where 10,000 applied many of whom would have been graduates. When I got the AO job myself the exams would have had a similar number of applicants (10k) all through the 90s when the pay was significantly worse than it is now.

cursai · 14-02-2012 3:50pm

People in this country are STILL spoilt whiners. €30000 isn't good enough for them. I saw these jobs advertised on the national papers months back, even the indo had the ad. Was sure they would be swamped with applicants. I've plenty of theories but just wanted to add that they WERE advertised clearly and not just on public jobs.ie(who by the way do email alerts).

ixoy · 14-02-2012 3:59pm

schemingbohemia wrote: »

You obviously have no knowledge of what AO's actually do. They don't administrate they assist in forming policy within Departments. The targetting of specialised qualifications this time around sets this process apart from previous competitions.

That's not always true though either - sometimes they don't do policy and actually do administrate.

I'd like to know the number of eligible candidates (which is not the 90k) there were and what percentage of those applied.

murphaph · 14-02-2012 4:02pm

Godge wrote: »

You might be ok for a basic entry clerical officer job with those qualifications.

...or perhaps programming the data entry system itself

MysticalRain · 14-02-2012 4:04pm

Most graduates I know don't buy dead tree editions of newspapers.

If the PS didn't place job ads on the main job websites (Irishjobs, jobs.ie monster etc), then they weren't advertising the jobs widely enough. The Central bank actually did post jobs on Irishjobs.ie late last year when they were looking for people. So I don't see why other branches of the PS can't do that as well. You can't always expect the mountain to come to Mohammed, even in a recession.

Godge · 14-02-2012 4:09pm

seamus wrote: »

I think you've just proven my point about how much stock the CS puts in a piece of paper to determine a candidate's ability. You have no idea what I am or am not qualified for, yet you've decided because I don't have an honours degree that I'm incapable of being an administrative officer in the CS.

Yes, and a doctor needs a piece of paper before operating on you, a nurse needs a piece of paper before nursing you, a teacher needs a piece of paper before teaching you, a lawyer needs a piece of paper before representing you, a pharmacist needs a piece of paper before selling you medicine, an accountant needs a piece of paper before auditing your books, an administrative officer needs a piece of paper in order to have the skills necessary for the job (analytical, research, policy, etc.), what's the problem? Lots of jobs have minimum qualifications.

sorry you don't make it but that is not my problem.

Godge · 14-02-2012 4:11pm

MysticalRain wrote: »

Most graduates I know don't buy dead tree editions of newspapers.

If the PS didn't place job ads on the main job websites (Irishjobs, jobs.ie monster etc), then they weren't advertising the jobs widely enough. The Central bank actually did post jobs on Irishjobs.ie late last year when they were looking for people. So I don't see why other branches of the PS can't do that as well. You can't always expect the mountain to come to Mohammed, even in a recession.

Because they have their own website www.publicjobs.ie and any half-decent employment guide will tell you about it and a google search gets it in seconds.

Godge · 14-02-2012 4:16pm

Fussgangerzone wrote: »

Would you read TFA?

That's going to rule out most of your 88,000.

So if I rock up with my HND, they'd politely tell me to **** off. Happily, I'm currently employed in the private sector, which I actually consider safer than the public sector, as it's a) not under constant attack and b) not solely providing services to nations subject to delusional austerity policies

Was the quote you linked to from the advertisement for the job or was it from the usually accurate Irish Independent article:rolleyes:? If you show me that other types of graduates were ruled out by the advertisement, then I will accept the point. I won't accept it just because it is written in an article in the Irish Independent.

Cuddlesworth · 14-02-2012 4:23pm

Godge wrote: »

Yes, and a doctor needs a piece of paper before operating on you, a nurse needs a piece of paper before nursing you, a teacher needs a piece of paper before teaching you, a lawyer needs a piece of paper before representing you, a pharmacist needs a piece of paper before selling you medicine, an accountant needs a piece of paper before auditing your books, an administrative officer needs a piece of paper in order to have the skills necessary for the job (analytical, research, policy, etc.), what's the problem? Lots of jobs have minimum qualifications.

sorry you don't make it but that is not my problem.

I like the way you lead the reader into assuming that the last part needed a piece of paper to do the job. In the real world you don't need a honours degree for the purpose of a administrative officer outside of the public service. So your entire point is invalidated.

Also, you can't stop training as a lawyer, the qualification exams are only the very start of a lifelong process. The same goes for nursing, pharmacy, accountancy and any other professional role. The same does not apply to a Administrative position within the civil service. They are not in the same skill range as each other.

MysticalRain · 14-02-2012 4:25pm

Godge wrote: »

Because they have their own website www.publicjobs.ie and any half-decent employment guide will tell you about it and a google search gets it in seconds.

The point being if there is a recruitment embargo on, then many people are not going to be checking it. I used to check publicjobs.ie religiously back in the day, but unsubscribed from it when the jobs dried up.

Heaven forbid the PS might actually operate like a private sector company and advertise jobs the normal way.

Godge · 14-02-2012 4:28pm

Cuddlesworth wrote: »

I like the way you lead the reader into assuming that the last part needed a piece of paper to do the job. In the real world you don't need a honours degree for the purpose of a administrative officer outside of the public service. So your entire point is invalidated.

Also, you can't stop training as a lawyer, the qualification exams are only the very start of a lifelong process. The same goes for nursing, pharmacy, accountancy and any other professional role. The same does not apply to a Administrative position within the civil service. They are not in the same skill range as each other.

I used to be a civil servant, I now work in the private sector.

What is meant by an Administrative Officer in the civil service is vastly different to the generally accepted meaning of administrative positions in the private sector.

Fussgangerzone · 14-02-2012 4:37pm

Godge wrote: »

Was the quote you linked to from the advertisement for the job or was it from the usually accurate Irish Independent article:rolleyes:? If you show me that other types of graduates were ruled out by the advertisement, then I will accept the point. I won't accept it just because it is written in an article in the Irish Independent.

The job was taken down last Friday, so I can't get the listing.
Why would the Indo lie about how narrow the selection process is?
They're not famous for being kind to the unemployed.

As for the figure of 91,000, that's graduates on the Live Register.
So it includes part-time workers and interns, many of whom may be working for little or nothing in an industry they want to get a foothold in, rather than seeking full-time paid employment in a sector where they don't have as many prospects. Worth considering.

Only 3,200 graduates apply for €30,000 state jobs

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