Flat rate Single Farm Payment

Box09 · 10-08-2011 4:32pm #1

I see the Farmers Journal for tomorrow are saying a Flat rate SFP from as little as €70 a hectare on their radio ad via facebook. It'll be very interesting to read the detail tomorrow!

epff · 10-08-2011 6:02pm

Box09 wrote: »

I see the Farmers Journal for tomorrow are saying a Flat rate SFP from as little as €70 a hectare on their radio ad via facebook. It'll be very interesting to read the detail tomorrow!

your are scaring me

5live · 10-08-2011 7:38pm

I think the flat rate is proposed to begin in 2020 and the rates arent set afaik. We are sorted budget wise till 2018 i think and renegotiations begin again in about 5 years. And that sort of timetable and scare story will repeat at 5 year intervals

sh1tstirrer · 11-08-2011 10:00am

They won't bring it down to €70/h because farmers would just end up leaving them keep it and where would that leave cross compliance and all the rest of the red tape?

Username John · 11-08-2011 10:36am

5live wrote: »

I think the flat rate is proposed to begin in 2020 and the rates arent set afaik. We are sorted budget wise till 2018 i think and renegotiations begin again in about 5 years. And that sort of timetable and scare story will repeat at 5 year intervals

So is the current SFP setup set to continue until 2018?

As a new entrant doesnt really suit me if it did, but if thats the way it is, thats the way it is...

reilig · 11-08-2011 10:54am

There is a lot of detail missing from this thread so before anyone panics, have a read of today's FJ. It is relatively good news:

It is proposed that everyone will have a base payment of €70 per hectare.

There will be a "Greening Payment" worth up to €81 per hectare.

Some of the payments may be based on historic payments, but there will be caps on the amount of SFP which is bad news for those who currently receive huge SFP's (Larry Goodman will be at a loss here)

There will be be coupling scheme options - I assume this means coupling payments to the amount of stock that you have.

IFJ states "farmers with low/no eititlements win. Farmers with high entitlements may suffer big losses"

There will also be a national reserve for new (young) farmers.

I advise that you read the small print. These are proposals rather than actual approved measures.

The proposed start year is 2020. I assume that the payment system will continue the way that it is up to then??

theaceofspies · 11-08-2011 11:54am

As with most things in life the devil will be in the detail whenever that is eventually made available.

Dazzler88 · 11-08-2011 12:28pm

reilig wrote: »

Some of the payments may be based on historic payments, but there will be caps on the amount of SFP which is bad news for those who currently receive huge SFP's

So that would make more small farmers in the country.I thought they would be looking to the NZ/OZ route,less farmers bigger farms. I'm glad its favoring the small men.

coolshannagh28 · 11-08-2011 12:34pm

I look like some mug as I started farming in 04 aged 40 and missed out on entitlements , didnt qualify for national reserve ,and will have to wait until 2020 to get a single payment, Crazy !

5live · 11-08-2011 2:01pm

They are only proposals at the minute but indicate the way the powers that be want to move. I would have no problem with moving to flat rate and supplementary payments for other measures, if only to see the look on the faces of guys gambling that it was going to be coupled to animal numbers again:)

theaceofspies · 11-08-2011 2:23pm

There seems to be confusion on this thread between the CAP proposals 2013-2020 and post-2020.... very different beasts. I think that the Farmers Journal is referring to the post 2020 proposals. No point in looking that far ahead until we all get through 2013-2020 first.

reilig · 11-08-2011 2:39pm

theaceofspies wrote: »

There seems to be confusion on this thread between the CAP proposals 2013-2020 and post-2020.... very different beasts. I think that the Farmers Journal is referring to the post 2020 proposals. No point in looking that far ahead until we all get through 2013-2020 first.

Sure we have already been told that the current SFP structure is going to remain in place until at least 2015. Have there been any announcements on what will happen from 2016 to 2019 or is it likely that the current sfp system will just be rolled over???

dryan · 11-08-2011 3:01pm

reilig wrote: »

Sure we have already been told that the current SFP structure is going to remain in place until at least 2015

When and where was that announced?

If memory serves me right, it was announced that the current system will remain in place for 2013 and there is a possibility that it will be continued to 2014.

I never seen 2015 mentioned.

reilig · 11-08-2011 3:26pm

dryan wrote: »

When and where was that announced?

If memory serves me right, it was announced that the current system will remain in place for 2013 and there is a possibility that it will be continued to 2014.

I never seen 2015 mentioned.

I heard it at our last suckler discussion group meeting. I thought it had been announced?? Maybe not.

reilig · 11-08-2011 3:34pm

theaceofspies wrote: »

There seems to be confusion on this thread between the CAP proposals 2013-2020 and post-2020.... very different beasts. I think that the Farmers Journal is referring to the post 2020 proposals. No point in looking that far ahead until we all get through 2013-2020 first.

After reading through the Farmers Journal for a second time today

, The Journal is specifically referring to a leaked Document on Cap 2013 reform. They do say that the deadline for the new system to be in place is 1 January 2014. The only mention of any year beyond this is the push to have a flat rate payment by 2019. They also talk about transitional payments but do not put a timeframe on these.

Tipp Man · 11-08-2011 6:47pm

Is that 70 per hectare or 70 per acre??

Will be losing a small fortune either way by the looks of it

Birdnuts · 11-08-2011 6:48pm

Dazzler88 wrote: »

. I'm glad its favoring the small men.

Same here - though no doubt the usual suspects in the IFA will throw a hissy fit:rolleyes:

Birdnuts · 11-08-2011 6:53pm

5live wrote: »

, if only to see the look on the faces of guys gambling that it was going to be coupled to animal numbers again:)

That was never going to happen given the ongoing melt-down in government finances across the eurozone and the expansion of the EU to the East - its all austerity for at least the next decade in that regard

Tipperarymike · 11-08-2011 7:28pm

It could just me me but between the Farming Independent on Tuesday and the Journal today , it all looks as clear as mud to me.

I have high value entitlements so on Tuesday I was delighted how it seemed to indicate that things would remain as they were until end of 2018 and then go to a flat rate.

Today it is a different story mind and it looks like anyone with entitlements of 600 per and upwards is looking at losing half their payment. Whatever the rights and wrongs of the system and the historic reference years a couple of things stick out for me.

If the reform sees farmers getting anything south of 400 per ha or so, wouldn't plenty of marginal farmers in their mid 40s upwards just decide to hell with it and take the forestry options. If you can get 190 an acre for forestry and not have the Dept, cross compliance and the county council inspections to worry about it would be very tempting.

Secondly, food security and quality are becoming bigger and bigger issues in this decade, not that they weren't always mind. As is common knowledge, China, India, and plenty of the oil rich countries are buying up huge amounts of land in Africa and Australia. If the EU isn't careful lots of land will go under utilised in Europe if farmers cannot make a sustainable living on their own land.

bob charles · 11-08-2011 7:59pm

anything under 150-200 ha and people will tell them to stick it, you would probably make 200 per ha extra with all the time and effort it takes to comply. The above scenario will never happen as the reason I have stated above is every civil servant unthinkable. Politicians love to think they have control over everything so the CAP really lets them keep us caught by the balls. In my farming operation I get no SFP and in my dads he is now down to 45 euro per animal finished, so even though he has a sizable SFP if that 45 euro was to go I would think that there would be a very small rise in beef prices and we would become more efficient. the stronger prices become in farming the more insignificant the SFP will become

Birdnuts · 11-08-2011 8:08pm

Tipperarymike wrote: »

.

Secondly, food security and quality are becoming bigger and bigger issues in this decade, not that they weren't always mind. As is common knowledge, China, India, and plenty of the oil rich countries are buying up huge amounts of land in Africa and Australia. If the EU isn't careful lots of land will go under utilised in Europe if farmers cannot make a sustainable living on their own land.

I was reading something recently about alot of land being idle in places like Ukraine and Russia too. I think the main problem with world food distribution/supply is that up to a third of food produced simply rots due to poor storage. In addition up to a third of the US corn crop is going into biofuel production which is sheer madness no matter what way you look at it. I think the main reason why countries like Kuwait etc. are buying up parts of Africa is that the turmoil on currency/stock markets and growing issues with the dollar which means physical assets are viewed as a greater store of wealth

benjydagg · 11-08-2011 11:42pm

reilig wrote: »

There is a lot of detail missing from this thread so before anyone panics, have a read of today's FJ. It is relatively good news:

It is proposed that everyone will have a base payment of €70 per hectare.

There will be a "Greening Payment" worth up to €81 per hectare.

Some of the payments may be based on historic payments, but there will be caps on the amount of SFP which is bad news for those who currently receive huge SFP's (Larry Goodman will be at a loss here)

There will be be coupling scheme options - I assume this means coupling payments to the amount of stock that you have.

IFJ states "farmers with low/no eititlements win. Farmers with high entitlements may suffer big losses"

There will also be a national reserve for new (young) farmers.

I advise that you read the small print. These are proposals rather than actual approved measures.

The proposed start year is 2020. I assume that the payment system will continue the way that it is up to then??

I hope so.

sh1tstirrer · 12-08-2011 12:20am

Tipperarymike wrote: »

If the reform sees farmers getting anything south of 400 per ha or so, wouldn't plenty of marginal farmers in their mid 40s upwards just decide to hell with it and take the forestry options. If you can get 190 an acre for forestry and not have the Dept, cross compliance and the county council inspections to worry about it would be very tempting.

What would they do then look out at the trees growing every day

In 10 years time €190/acre will have a lot less buying power

alderdeer · 12-08-2011 12:48am

sh1tstirrer wrote: »

What would they do then look out at the trees growing every day In 10 years time €190/acre will have a lot less buying power

Ya have a valid point there about €190 being worth in 10 yrs but if it stays tax free to some people especially if the OH is working thats equivalent to €350/acre with no input and a nice lump of cash coming in not long after the premium ends. wouldnt it be nice to see the trees then (on the back of a truck going out the gate)

sh1tstirrer · 12-08-2011 1:08am

alderdeer wrote: »

Ya have a valid point there about €190 being worth in 10 yrs but if it stays tax free to some people especially if the OH is working thats equivalent to €350/acre with no input and a nice lump of cash coming in not long after the premium ends. wouldnt it be nice to see the trees then (on the back of a truck going out the gate)

Thats true but it takes 30 years to grow trees any man heading for 50 now will be heading for 80 before he sees the trees on the back of a truck going out the gate:( That is if he will still be able to see by then:(

flatout11 · 12-08-2011 9:30am

well i have read the article 3 times and its and except the 70 per ha bit the rest is as clear as mud!!!! no suprise there!!
why is historic payments even considered - it should be based on curent production not on what a lad had years ago
a part flat part coupled payment would be a simpler more productive measure

JohnBoy · 12-08-2011 11:10am

The way I read it was something along these lines.......

In 2014 a proportion of the payment is this €70 flat rate, then there is the greening topup, there is also a proportion that the govt can decide to divide out between a flatrate topup or into production related schemes, headage, scws, area aid, whatever they want really.
The rest of the payment will be allocated proportionally to your current historical payment.

These are purely rounded numbers to illustrate how I understand it.

So lets say in 2014 the fund is 55% flatrate and greening, 10% production related, 5% national reserve that leaves 30% to be divided out proportionally to peoples old entitlements.

In 2015 it shifts to 60% flatrate and greening, 10% production related, 5% national reserve 25% old entitlements

In 2016 it shifts to 65% flatrate and greening, 10% production related, 5% national reserve 20% old entitlements

In 2016 it shifts to 70% flatrate and greening, 10% production related, 5% national reserve 15% old entitlements

In 2017 it shifts to 75% flatrate and greening, 10% production related, 5% national reserve 10% old entitlements

In 2018 it shifts to 80% flatrate and greening, 10% production related, 5% national reserve 5% old entitlements

In 2019 it shifts to 85% flatrate and greening, 10% production related, 5% national reserve 0% old entitlements

The basic idea being that they will phase in the changeover to a primarily area based payment.

If it is as I understand it then largely I'm in favour of it. it seems to be designed to be a more equitable system than the current one. However that's based purely on my interpretation of two confusing and incomplete articles based off a leaked draft of a proposal.

there's a hell of a long way to go on this yet.

Birdnuts · 12-08-2011 12:26pm

sh1tstirrer wrote: »

In 10 years time €190/acre will have a lot less buying power

Your a brave man to be calling what things will be like in 2021 given the world we live in now :eek:;)

theaceofspies · 12-08-2011 12:49pm

The IFA aren't too happy with the "leaked" proposals which would see a flat rate payment - see their website:
http://www.ifa.ie/IFAInformation/tabid/586/ctl/Detail/mid/2202/xmid/4632/xmfid/23/Default.aspx

But then again they would be very friendly with the larger brand of Irish farmer than the small man regardless of the fact that the small farmer pays just as much in membership fees. Stunning parallels with the failed strategies of last Fianna Fail Government in feathering the nest of their co-horts and letting the rest of this so-called Republic go swing for themselves. These are interesting times!

Min · 12-08-2011 12:59pm

The IFA should support it, over 200,000 hectares have any payments on it and this will now be eligible for payment under the new system.

I don't care if those who got larger payments gets less.

Tipp Man · 12-08-2011 3:58pm

theaceofspies wrote: »

The IFA aren't too happy with the "leaked" proposals which would see a flat rate payment - see their website:
http://www.ifa.ie/IFAInformation/tabid/586/ctl/Detail/mid/2202/xmid/4632/xmfid/23/Default.aspx

But then again they would be very friendly with the larger brand of Irish farmer than the small man regardless of the fact that the small farmer pays just as much in membership fees. Stunning parallels with the failed strategies of last Fianna Fail Government in feathering the nest of their co-horts and letting the rest of this so-called Republic go swing for themselves. These are interesting times!

I fail to see why a larger farmer shouldn't get a larger SFP than a smaller farmer - it should all be in proportion. you hardly expect a fella with 20 cattle to get as big a SFP as a fella with 200 cattle

A larger farmer will be getting more anyway with the per acre system

All this bitching and moaning about "the bigger fellas with bigger SFP" strikes me a bit of jealousy and envy to be honest. We have a good SFP but there are fellas around us getting more because they had more cattle or tillage or whatever. Good luck to them and i hope they keep as much of it as is possible going forward

Min · 12-08-2011 4:03pm

Tipp Man wrote: »

I fail to see why a larger farmer shouldn't get a larger SFP than a smaller farmer - it should all be in proportion. you hardly expect a fella with 20 cattle to get as big a SFP as a fella with 200 cattle

A larger farmer will be getting more anyway with the per acre system

All this bitching and moaning about "the bigger fellas with bigger SFP" strikes me a bit of jealousy and envy to be honest. We have a good SFP but there are fellas around us getting more because they had more cattle or tillage or whatever. Good luck to them and i hope they keep as much of it as is possible going forward

I don't think it is jealously as the bigger farmer still gets more.

The SFP is based on history and that is where it belongs and we need a new system.

theaceofspies · 12-08-2011 4:30pm

Personally I'm jealous of the bigger farmers... they are bigger for a reason and deserve it. The issue is the IFA basing it's agenda on certain members and not treating all members equally.

theaceofspies · 12-08-2011 4:32pm

That should read NOT ealous... ooops!
Freudian slip!
But you get the drift!

flatout11 · 12-08-2011 4:38pm

Min wrote: »

The SFP is based on history and that is where it belongs and we need a new system.

I agree the old system didnt work .. farming for payments but there should be no link to historic payments, what relavance does what a fella kept 10 years ago to what he is entitled to now..... also very hard to justify in the publics eyes,
the problem is there is no 'perfect' option part flat rate part coupled seemed like a good option but i cant see them going back to payments that would encourage production :rolleyes:

Any idea what the greening measures are? its a very broad term which given recent devolopments (possible planning permission for drainage etc..) sounds like something john gormley would enjoy

rancher · 12-08-2011 4:50pm

Min wrote: »

The IFA should support it, over 200,000 hectares have any payments on it and this will now be eligible for payment under the new system.

I don't care if those who got larger payments gets less.

As I write I'm looking out at a farm covered with ragworth, stocked at 1lu per 2 ha belonging to a developer.... should IFA be lobbying for an sfp for this farm!!!!!

Tipp Man · 12-08-2011 5:13pm

theaceofspies wrote: »

That should read NOT ealous... ooops!
Freudian slip!
But you get the drift!

where did the IFA say anything in that press release which even remotely resembles looking after the interests of the larger farmer??

It clearly states that the movement to an area based system would lead to large looses in payments to farmers - it says nothing about large farmers or small farmers and neither of those 2 phrases are used

I think you need to read that press release again

Tipp Man · 12-08-2011 5:14pm

Min wrote: »

I don't think it is jealously as the bigger farmer still gets more.

The SFP is based on history and that is where it belongs and we need a new system.

I'm not saying we don't need a new system but the post i responded too was pure crap to be honest.

Birdnuts · 12-08-2011 6:54pm

Tipp Man wrote: »

I fail to see why a larger farmer shouldn't get a larger SFP than a smaller farmer - it should all be in proportion. you hardly expect a fella with 20 cattle to get as big a SFP as a fella with 200 cattle

A larger farmer will be getting more anyway with the per acre system

All this bitching and moaning about "the bigger fellas with bigger SFP" strikes me a bit of jealousy and envy to be honest. We have a good SFP but there are fellas around us getting more because they had more cattle or tillage or whatever. Good luck to them and i hope they keep as much of it as is possible going forward

Thats all well and good until you see the massive SFP payments going to some of the country's richest business men and big corporations. This kind of thing doesn't exactly shine a positive light on the whole CAP among the general public - both in Ireland and across Europe. At the end of the day farming will have to fight for its share of the EU budget like any other sector and if its seen that most of the money is going to a few "fat cats", then the possibity of safe-guarding SFP's for all farmers will be put at grave risk going forward:(

Tipp Man · 12-08-2011 8:25pm

Birdnuts wrote: »

Thats all well and good until you see the massive SFP payments going to some of the country's richest business men and big corporations. This kind of thing doesn't exactly shine a positive light on the whole CAP among the general public - both in Ireland and across Europe. At the end of the day farming will have to fight for its share of the EU budget like any other sector and if its seen that most of the money is going to a few "fat cats", then the possibity of safe-guarding SFP's for all farmers will be put at grave risk going forward:(

If the proposals go through as has been outlined in this thread then there won't be a full time beef farmer left in this country in the next few years.

Have you seen the ridiculously small margins that are out of beef at the moment? How anybody thinks that this will be a good thing for Irish farming is beyond me

Like i said too many people worried about what the big farmer down the road or Larry Goodman is getting and not realising that they will also loose out

70 Euro a hectare is pittence - if that is the rate then it will wipe out smaller farmers not protect them - how can that be good for Irish farmers or Ireland as a whole??

theaceofspies · 12-08-2011 8:33pm

My understanding is that the CAP Budget or "Pie" is the same as what was received up to now. It's how the pie is divided is what is at stake. Last time round a few farmers got a big chunk of the pie thanks to having high stock rates back during the intial Reference period. This is all still up in the air however as the report in the Farmers Journal should be taken with a pinch of salt until we see the final agreement. Contrary to appearances this is a more a politicial matter than a farming matter and we all know the amount of spin in the field of politics.

Birdnuts · 12-08-2011 8:35pm

Tipp Man wrote: »

If the proposals go through as has been outlined in this thread then there won't be a full time beef farmer left in this country in the next few years.

Have you seen the ridiculously small margins that are out of beef at the moment? How anybody thinks that this will be a good thing for Irish farming is beyond me

Like i said too many people worried about what the big farmer down the road or Larry Goodman is getting and not realising that they will also loose out

70 Euro a hectare is pittence - if that is the rate then it will wipe out smaller farmers not protect them - how can that be good for Irish farmers or Ireland as a whole??

The devil will be in the detail TM and its a hope I have(maybe a forlorn one!!) that the government in their wisdom will structure such funding in a way to extract the maximum benefit for the largest number of farmers as possbile, while at the same time benefiting other rural enterpsizes that are shaped by the industry. All I know for sure is that the current state of play is unsustaineable, destructive and grossly unfair for the majority of small to medium family farms.:(

Tipp Man · 12-08-2011 8:39pm

theaceofspies wrote: »

My understanding is that the CAP Budget or "Pie" is the same as what was received up to now. It's how the pie is divided is what is at stake. Last time round a few farmers got a big chunk of the pie thanks to having high stock rates back during the intial Reference period. This is all still up in the air however as the report in the Farmers Journal should be taken with a pinch of salt until we see the final agreement. Contrary to appearances this is a more a politicial matter than a farming matter and we all know the amount of spin in the field of politics.

Don't be surprised if a huge amount of money that used to go to farmers goes to other rural activities - the pie might be similar but farmers are going to see less of it

whelan1 · 12-08-2011 8:41pm

this might be going off on a totally different tangent but at the minute agriculture is one of the best preforming industries in the country , what are the government doing to promote it?

Tipp Man · 12-08-2011 8:46pm

Birdnuts wrote: »

The devil will be in the detail TM and its a hope I have(maybe a forlorn one!!) that the government in their wisdom will structure such funding in a way to extract the maximum benefit for the largest number of farmers as possbile, while at the same time benefiting other rural enterpsizes that are shaped by the industry. All I know for sure is that the current state of play is unsustaineable, destructive and grossly unfair for the majority of small to medium family farms.:(

So you want to see money diverted away from farmers - i have no doubt your wish will come to fruition and that idea has been bandied about already

Like i said 70 Euro a hectare isn't going to do anything for a small farmer let me tell you. If that rate applies then it will see the end of the small and medium family farms that you care about - then you will see distruction. Our farm alone is going to lose an absolute fortune

I also don't agree with your unfair assessment of the current system - it rewarded the efficent productive farmers and those who were inefficient and idle lost out. It was easy to get a good SFP if you were anyway decent farming. Being a good farmer won't be rewarded in this new structure I am almost certain

Tipp Man · 12-08-2011 8:47pm

whelan1 wrote: »

this might be going off on a totally different tangent but at the minute agriculture is one of the best preforming industries in the country , what are the government doing to promote it?

The only promtion farmers are getting is down at the revenue office where farmers are suddenly important again

Birdnuts · 12-08-2011 8:47pm

Tipp Man wrote: »

Don't be surprised if a huge amount of money that used to go to farmers goes to other rural activities - the pie might be similar but farmers are going to see less of it

Thats a possiblity, but theres nothing stopping farmers from diversifying into other rural enterprizes as many already have with much success in alot of cases. At the end of the day if it boosts the rural economy in other ways, that will in turn benefit farm families as much if not more then any other rural dweller.

Tipp Man · 12-08-2011 8:51pm

Birdnuts wrote: »

Thats a possiblity, but theres nothing stopping farmers from diversifying into other rural enterprizes as many already have with much success in alot of cases. At the end of the day if it boosts the rural economy in other ways, that will in turn benefit farm families as much if not more then any other rural dweller.

There is only so many farm guesthouses and "artisan" cheesemakers we can have in this country and there are probably enough of them there already

The CAP is the common agricultural policy and not the common rural policy

Birdnuts · 12-08-2011 8:56pm

Tipp Man wrote: »

So you want to see money diverted away from farmers -

Thats not the point I'm making at all:rolleyes: - I'm just trying to make the best out of what are the proposals coming out of the EU to support rural Ireland. At the end of the day this is being driven by the bigger countries and what their public want, so theres no point in farmers here sticking their head in the sand and some even wishing it was the 80's again

whelan1 · 12-08-2011 8:56pm

Birdnuts wrote: »

Thats a possiblity, but theres nothing stopping farmers from diversifying into other rural enterprizes as many already have with much success in alot of cases. At the end of the day if it boosts the rural economy in other ways, that will in turn benefit farm families as much if not more then any other rural dweller.

i know 2 people with open farms and this has been their worst year ever but repayment s still have to be made . As tippman said there is only so much room for farm cheeses etc and the customer does not have as much disposable income as before the big r

Birdnuts · 12-08-2011 9:01pm

Tipp Man wrote: »

There is only so many farm guesthouses and "artisan" cheesemakers we can have in this country and there are probably enough of them there already

The CAP is the common agricultural policy and not the common rural policy

Thats a very negative view and is certainly not the case across large parts of rural europe that are far, far ahead on all kinds of altenative enterprizes then we are. In any case no matter what any of us think about the issue this is where things are headed.

Flat rate Single Farm Payment

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