Interested in Messianic Fellowship?

Tinyark · 27-01-2012 3:26pm #1

Dublin and indeed the R.O.I has no defined group for Messianic fellowship. We are hoping to form a congregation in some way of both Messianic Jews and Messianic gentiles (christians) and indeed any who seek knowledge of Yeshua and a great fellowship and walk in him. We are all one in Yeshua.

We feel G-d is calling us to help Ireland follow Yeshua in a more harmonious way and that the 'main stream' religions and churches are not teaching us the commandments we need to follow to be true follows of the messiah.

It is our goal to bring people to G-d. To teach the scriptures and the wonderful, awe inspiring message of the word of G-d to all those who have ears to listen.

We also hope to teach those willing biblical hebrew and the practices Yeshua himself would have followed and commanded us to do.

tommy2bad · 27-01-2012 3:47pm

So is this 'Jews for Jesus' ?
Do you have a link that would explain more what Messianic Fellowship is.
Inquiring minds and all that.

Tinyark · 27-01-2012 4:06pm

Hi Tommy..

Not exactly 'Jews for Jesus'.. more EVERYONE for Jesus.

Messianic fellowship follows biblical commandments and tries to teach a life and fellowship more inline with what Yeshua (jesus) taught and practiced and less in line with what most churches 'teach'.

Its a massive subject and a much more 'life' centered faith.

We are kinda trying to see if there are enough people in the R.O.I interested in this to see if we can get it off the ground and form a group.

In a nutshell:-

Jeshua was a hebrew man. A practicing jew. He lived a jewish life and followed the Torah (book of teachings). He left several new commandment and instructions to us via his apostles
(also practising hebrews) and the new testament. (a totally jewish document)

As messianic followers (be it jew or gentile) we try to live as much to these commandments as possible. (as followers in christ we are all one in him and all part of Isreal).. heady concepts i know.

There are some great videos of Messianic Teaching here

We are only babies, little seeds, trying to start a tree of life here in Ireland.

Benny_Cake · 27-01-2012 7:58pm

OP, do you consider yourselves Jews or Christians? It seems to me that of you believe in the divinity of Christ then that makes you Christians, in the religious sense at least. I know a lot of Jews feel "Messianic Jews" are misrepresenting themselves and Judaism, no offence intended, but I'm just curious.

Tinyark · 28-01-2012 1:11am

I suppose the easiest way to tick the box would be to say christian as that phrase neatly boxes our allegence with Yeshua. However there are several notable additions that make messianic churches much more Jewish.
We believe in Torah, and the commandments. All of them. Yeshua taught us to obey the Torah and the commandments, he added a few too.

We believe there is much more to true discipleship than grace alone.

Benny_Cake wrote: »

OP, do you consider yourselves Jews or Christians? It seems to me that of you believe in the divinity of Christ then that makes you Christians, in the religious sense at least. I know a lot of Jews feel "Messianic Jews" are misrepresenting themselves and Judaism, no offence intended, but I'm just curious.

wolfsbane · 29-01-2012 9:36pm

Tinyark wrote: »

I suppose the easiest way to tick the box would be to say christian as that phrase neatly boxes our allegence with Yeshua. However there are several notable additions that make messianic churches much more Jewish.
We believe in Torah, and the commandments. All of them. Yeshua taught us to obey the Torah and the commandments, he added a few too.

We believe there is much more to true discipleship than grace alone.

Hi, Tinyark.

Are saying Christians must practice circumcision and keep the Mosaic Laws on foods, clothing, days, etc?

Tinyark · 29-01-2012 10:07pm

wolfsbane wrote: »

Tinyark wrote: »

I suppose the easiest way to tick the box would be to say christian as that phrase neatly boxes our allegence with Yeshua. However there are several notable additions that make messianic churches much more Jewish.
We believe in Torah, and the commandments. All of them. Yeshua taught us to obey the Torah and the commandments, he added a few too.

We believe there is much more to true discipleship than grace alone.

Hi, Tinyark.

Are saying Christians must practice circumcision and keep the Mosaic Laws on foods, clothing, days, etc?

Nope. But the new testament alone holds 1000+ commandments.

Obviously circumcision is a commandment reserved for the hebrews.

wolfsbane · 29-01-2012 10:38pm

Tinyark wrote: »

Nope. But the new testament alone holds 1000+ commandments.

Obviously circumcision is a commandment reserved for the hebrews.

Thanks for that clarification. But you intrigue me - 1000+ commandments? I can think some:
No murder
No theft
No fornication
No harbouring of thoughts of above
No idolatry
No greed
No lying
No swearing
No blasphemy
No unjust divorce
No neglect of those whose duty it is for us to care for
No rebellion against proper authority
No eating of blood or things sacrificed to idols

I'm sure I've missed some obvious ones. And I've omitted the positive expressions of God's law: Matthew 22:37 Jesus said to him, “‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.’ 38 This is the first and great commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40 On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets.”

But how did you find 1000+?

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Matthew 4:17 From that time Jesus began to preach and to say, “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.”

philologos · 29-01-2012 11:28pm

I was really interested in Messianic Judaism a few years ago. However, I think that it could very easily verge into legalism in respect to the Gospel if one isn't careful, or indeed the idea that the Law of Moses wasn't fulfilled through Jesus. The same is true of both Jews and Gentiles as far as I see it.

uck51js9zml2yt · 29-01-2012 11:39pm

If you were to read Romans it would be obvious that we are incapable of keeping the commandments.
When we break one we break the law and the penalty is death.
For that very reason He gave us His Spirit and we were brought out of the Old Covenant into a new one.

Apart from all that, the emphasis on a "messianic christian" is all wrong.
Scripture clearly states that there is neither Jew or Gentile, Slave or Free but we are a new man in Christ.
Paul thought his heritage was as dung. He even questions the Galatians as to why they think they can attain to Faith through the keeping of the law. He asks who bewitched them.

In light of this I have to question your whole basis of faith.

When I came to Faith, I stopped being what I was. I gave up my religious heritage and became a Believer.

lmaopml · 30-01-2012 1:28am

tatranska, I hope you continue in your faith in Jesus as the Messiah - Sometimes, there can be a language barrier and more often than not an attachment to so many things, we're human - When Christ was born, he was born a Jew, the Apostles were Jews, the Jews are God's chosen people and that Covenant is binding, and still is today for those who follow the law are bound by it.

In Christ, is a new Covenant for both Jews and Gentiles ( we as 'Gentiles' are glad and full of joy to have been grafted in, and to have the opportunity to understand God's love, the God of Abraham and Isaac. Indeed the one and only God ) Jesus who became a child and grew as a man and lived among us, was persecuted when he did no wrong, he exemplified everything that is good, loving enemies, speaking truth, and most of all he was one with the Father and his will - He caught a lot of people off guard in his day - obviously! He highlighted what is good as the humble servant...and demonstrated what perfect love is.

He himself said that all of the laws can be summed up into one; Love the Lord your God with all your heart with all your soul and with all your mind, and love your neighbour as yourself -

That's a hard act to follow - certainly it seems that way, but it's our calling, and it corrects the course for us, we are also given the Helper, the Holy Spirit who writes hope and charity and wisdom to all who ask it on their hearts.

Welcome to the forum - It's lovely to see a variety of posters.

bonniebede · 30-01-2012 9:34pm

lmaopml wrote: »

tatranska, I hope you continue in your faith in Jesus as the Messiah - Sometimes, there can be a language barrier and more often than not an attachment to so many things, we're human - When Christ was born, he was born a Jew, the Apostles were Jews, the Jews are God's chosen people and that Covenant is binding, and still is today for those who follow the law are bound by it.

In Christ, is a new Covenant for both Jews and Gentiles ( we as 'Gentiles' are glad and full of joy to have been grafted in, and to have the opportunity to understand God's love, the God of Abraham and Isaac. Indeed the one and only God ) Jesus who became a child and grew as a man and lived among us, was persecuted when he did no wrong, he exemplified everything that is good, loving enemies, speaking truth, and most of all he was one with the Father and his will - He caught a lot of people off guard in his day - obviously! He highlighted what is good as the humble servant...and demonstrated what perfect love is.

He himself said that all of the laws can be summed up into one; Love the Lord your God with all your heart with all your soul and with all your mind, and love your neighbour as yourself -

That's a hard act to follow - certainly it seems that way, but it's our calling, and it corrects the course for us, we are also given the Helper, the Holy Spirit who writes hope and charity and wisdom to all who ask it on their hearts.

Welcome to the forum - It's lovely to see a variety of posters.

Very interesting comment, thanks for putting your thoughts out there. If i may make a brief comment...

Jesus did not come to exemplify what is good, this is a heresy condemned by the early church fathers called pelagianism.

The problem with that approach was already summed up be paul when he wrote ' the good i would do I do not, while the thing which i do not want to do, i find myself doing'.

our problem is not that we do not know the good, but that we are incapable without graceof living it.

Jesus came not to show what was good, but to make it possible for us to have God the Holy SPirit dwell in us, and act in us so that we would do what we could not do before, you do say this at the end, I note. however it is very common these days to see Jesus as a prohet or teacher, and miss out on the ontological change which is at the heart of christianity, and i tihnk it is good to tighten up our language in that respect.:)

bonniebede · 30-01-2012 9:38pm

Tinyark wrote: »

Dublin and indeed the R.O.I has no defined group for Messianic fellowship. We are hoping to form a congregation in some way of both Messianic Jews and Messianic gentiles (christians) and indeed any who seek knowledge of Yeshua and a great fellowship and walk in him. We are all one in Yeshua.

We feel G-d is calling us to help Ireland follow Yeshua in a more harmonious way and that the 'main stream' religions and churches are not teaching us the commandments we need to follow to be true follows of the messiah.

It is our goal to bring people to G-d. To teach the scriptures and the wonderful, awe inspiring message of the word of G-d to all those who have ears to listen.

We also hope to teach those willing biblical hebrew and the practices Yeshua himself would have followed and commanded us to do.

thanks for this intriguing idea. i feel it is what the church and fellowship I belong to already do. Interestingly, maybe, the room where we fellowship is named after a Jewish lady called Edith who joined our church as an adult. She died in the holocaust, after our church leaders protested the deprotation and treatmentof the jews, and the nazi's decided to round up our church members who were jewish as retaliation. previously they had had some security as theywere considered christians.

lmaopml · 31-01-2012 1:47am

Ooops sorry Tinyak, no deep theological undertones in my good statement meant really, just some praise offered up really.... I simply meant that God is Good, Jesus is God, and everything he does has got to be good

There's a tongue twister for you...

Anyway, welcome to the forum, it would be interesting to hear more perspectives from more Christians.

Tinyark · 31-01-2012 1:55am

bonniebede wrote: »

Tinyark wrote: »

Dublin and indeed the R.O.I has no defined group for Messianic fellowship. We are hoping to form a congregation in some way of both Messianic Jews and Messianic gentiles (christians) and indeed any who seek knowledge of Yeshua and a great fellowship and walk in him. We are all one in Yeshua.

We feel G-d is calling us to help Ireland follow Yeshua in a more harmonious way and that the 'main stream' religions and churches are not teaching us the commandments we need to follow to be true follows of the messiah.

It is our goal to bring people to G-d. To teach the scriptures and the wonderful, awe inspiring message of the word of G-d to all those who have ears to listen.

We also hope to teach those willing biblical hebrew and the practices Yeshua himself would have followed and commanded us to do.

If you feel you would be interested in hearing more or have quesions... please email [EMAIL="Tinyark@gmail.com"]Tinyark@gmail.com[/EMAIL]

thanks for this intriguing idea. i feel it is what the church and fellowship I belong to already do. Interestingly, maybe, the room where we fellowship is named after a Jewish lady called Edith who joined our church as an adult. She died in the holocaust, after our church leaders protested the deprotation and treatmentof the jews, and the nazi's decided to round up our church members who were jewish as retaliation. previously they had had some security as theywere considered christians.

Hi

can I ask...

Where do you meet?

Tinyark · 31-01-2012 1:59am

lmaopml wrote: »

Ooops sorry Tinyak, no deep theological undertones in my good statement meant really, just some praise offered up really.... I simply meant that God is Good, Jesus is God, and everything he does has got to be good There's a tongue twister for you...

Anyway, welcome to the forum, it would be interesting to hear more perspectives from more Christians.

No problem. My only hope here is I can find a congregation/group/house church that embraces the 'Hebrew'ness of Yeshua (language, scripture,Shabbat etc)

SonOfAdam · 01-02-2012 1:19pm

I can understand you wishing to keep hold of your heritage if you were from a Jewish background as 'Jewishness' is more than just a religion, it's a cultural identity. If you are not from a Jewish background I would wonder at your reasoning to claim this 'hebrewness' for yourself ?
To me it's akin to converts to Islam who change their name from Tom to Ibrahim Khalid or somesuch thing, wear middle eastern clothing, learn arabic and take on a totally new cultural identity - as if the religion itself denotes the culture.
The difference with Christianity is there is no cultural uniformity within it - it transcends cultures and backgrounds - there is neither Greek nor Jew, slave or free for all are one in Christ - As for keeping the 'Law' you should have a read through Galatians to see what Paul has to say about it and Judaizers.

Tinyark · 01-02-2012 1:54pm

SonOfAdam wrote: »

I can understand you wishing to keep hold of your heritage if you were from a Jewish background as 'Jewishness' is more than just a religion, it's a cultural identity. If you are not from a Jewish background I would wonder at your reasoning to claim this 'hebrewness' for yourself ?
To me it's akin to converts to Islam who change their name from Tom to Ibrahim Khalid or somesuch thing, wear middle eastern clothing, learn arabic and take on a totally new cultural identity - as if the religion itself denotes the culture.
The difference with Christianity is there is no cultural uniformity within it - it transcends cultures and backgrounds - there is neither Greek nor Jew, slave or free for all are one in Christ - As for keeping the 'Law' you should have a read through Galatians to see what Paul has to say about it and Judaizers.

I can see your approach here and it is a common question.

Romans 11.24

For me, its hard to accept as a believer in Yeshua that the modern perception of 'church' is the model we are to follow. When i read the bible (i prefer the word Torah as it means G-ds Teachings rather than 'Librarty') i can only really take that words in it as instruction. As such things like 'Easter', 'Christmas'... even 'Mass' are not in the Bible. It was around 350-400 years before these things were 'invented' by a roman church tryind to 'de-jew' christianity. Yeshua (Jesus's name at birth) was a hebrew. He worshipped at Temple, read in Synagouge and loved the Torah. He celebrated all the Hebrew festivals and observances like passover.

His disciples did the same.

Both Yeshua and his disciples followed Torah and said..

'If you want to be like the master, imatate me"

I do not confess to know every aspect of theology, nor do i condemn people for following the Christain faith in their own way. The New and Old Testement says,' Love the lord thy G-d and Love your fellow man as yourself', following this simple rule will mean you are following all of the Torah Commandments.

However, even in the new testement there are commands like observing the Sabbath and not eating blood that many choose to ignore.

Again, i do not condem.

I simple believe if i adopt a more jewish understanding of the word, observances and commands of G-d and a less Roman one, my walk with Yeshua will be closer.

For me something as simple as observing Sabbath on a friday and dedicating Friday evening and Saturday to reading, worship and spiritual rebalance gives me not only a way to praise g-d for a time he himself deems glorifying but also means i am walking as the Messiah and Disciples did.

The new testement says that Yeshua tore down the dividing wall between Jew and Gentile, making us one people.

It also says g-d has grafted us into HIS tree, the tree of his people. Yeshua has through his death and purchase of our sin grafted me into the tree of his chosen people. I am 'in christ' also part of Isreal.

Im not trying to offend, only learn more about what g-d planned for us to follow in the whole bible.

Tinyark · 01-02-2012 1:58pm

SonOfAdam wrote: »

I can understand you wishing to keep hold of your heritage if you were from a Jewish background as 'Jewishness' is more than just a religion, it's a cultural identity. If you are not from a Jewish background I would wonder at your reasoning to claim this 'hebrewness' for yourself ?
To me it's akin to converts to Islam who change their name from Tom to Ibrahim Khalid or somesuch thing, wear middle eastern clothing, learn arabic and take on a totally new cultural identity - as if the religion itself denotes the culture.
The difference with Christianity is there is no cultural uniformity within it - it transcends cultures and backgrounds - there is neither Greek nor Jew, slave or free for all are one in Christ - As for keeping the 'Law' you should have a read through Galatians to see what Paul has to say about it and Judaizers.

one other thing..

Redemption can only come through grace.

Paul new this. His point is not that you shouldnt follow Torah, his point was that 'alone' Torah cannot grant salvation. Torah alone is simple LAW, but with belief Torah is beautiful and allows as to walk the 'physical' walk as well as the spiritual.

Following the commandments of G-d gloryfies him and he blesses us for it.

SonOfAdam · 02-02-2012 1:04pm

His point is that we have become heirs based on what Jesus has done for us not by observing the law; before faith came we were held prisoners by the law - now, as we are justified by faith we are no longer under the supervision of the law.

9 But now that you know God— or rather are known by God— how is it that you are turning back to those weak and miserable principles? Do you wish to be enslaved by them all over again?

10 You are observing special days and months and seasons and years! 11 I fear for you, that somehow I have wasted my efforts on you. Gal 4.

None of us could keep the requirements of the Law - their function was to point to Christ - the one who could keep them - The Galatians were grasping with the age old problem of adding to grace by their own works (observing the Law). It wasn't that they didn't have faith in what Christ had done for them, they were believers afterall , but they were bringing their own efforts to the table also - that's the 'bewitchment' they fell for - the inability to accept the meritless gift that God has given without conditions or add ons. Christ came to set us free not to bind us to rules and regulations - that's good news.

Tinyark · 02-02-2012 2:26pm

SonOfAdam wrote: »

His point is that we have become heirs based on what Jesus has done for us not by observing the law; before faith came we were held prisoners by the law - now, as we are justified by faith we are no longer under the supervision of the law.

9 But now that you know God— or rather are known by God— how is it that you are turning back to those weak and miserable principles? Do you wish to be enslaved by them all over again?

10 You are observing special days and months and seasons and years! 11 I fear for you, that somehow I have wasted my efforts on you. Gal 4.

None of us could keep the requirements of the Law - their function was to point to Christ - the one who could keep them - The Galatians were grasping with the age old problem of adding to grace by their own works (observing the Law). It wasn't that they didn't have faith in what Christ had done for them, they were believers afterall , but they were bringing their own efforts to the table also - that's the 'bewitchment' they fell for - the inability to accept the meritless gift that God has given without conditions or add ons. Christ came to set us free not to bind us to rules and regulations - that's good news.

I agree with you in most respects and i praise you for points well executed - that, as i stated also redemption comes from faith. The issue here is Paul at no point said 'Do not hold the Sabbath'. He held Sabbath his whole life... as did all of the apostles. They even changed arrangements so be sure to be in particular places SO they could hold with the events of the Jewish Calender. (sabbath and passover were followed by Yeshuas early church till 350-400 AD)

[FONT=Ariel,Helvetica] Acts 13:14 [/FONT][FONT=Ariel,Helvetica]Acts 13:42-44

It is even kept by the Messiah in the Last days..

[/FONT][FONT=Ariel,Helvetica]"I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet," Revelation 1:10 [/FONT]
[FONT=Ariel,Helvetica][/FONT]
Paul is saying that following the Sabbath for the sake of the Law. Following the Law for the sake of redemption is pointless. Hes saying that following the Sabbath because you are told to cannot give salvation as is meritless is held on that account.

We are reading english converted from greek and greek that was converted from a number of sources but all the Gosples come from a hebrew perspective. Paul was talking to groups of Jews who for their whole life followed Torah and Temple so as to walk as G-d had instructed. It was hard for these people to understand these actions as RULES and not as devotions or teaching were not needed anymore.

God does not change. God said the Sabbath is forever. He blessed it and called it Holy. Paul kept sabbath, Jesus kept sabbath...

As such i keep sabbath. On Friday at sun set i welcome and praise G-d by giving a devotion. I keep Friday night and Saturday as Sabbath. Using the time to relax, learn, pray and read. I use the Sabbath as a holy day. I day to be closer to G-d, to feel the spirit and recharge my spiritual batteries. Just as all of my biblical instructors did until the Roman Church changed things in about 400 ad.

Yeshua said that we are grafted into the tree of gods people and are as such part of Gods Israel..

[FONT=Ariel,Helvetica]"Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant." Exodus 31:16 [/FONT]

I didnt post on this forum to try to convert, as there is nothing to convert. A messianic jew, gentile, born again or plan old 'christian' is all one in christ as long as they follow the commands Yeshua gave us.

I personally believe the Yeshua is the Word, the Word is God, the Word is with God and the Word IS the bible.. the WHOLE bible. God doesnt change. Only the way we view his WORD does.

I simply wondered if there were any like minded people in the ROI...

As a follower of the master i do not try to follow the law because i have to.. i follow because g-d wants me to. Its also pretty awesome to me to be able to 'walk' in early church roots and know that im pleasing YHWY when i do these things.

I hope your walk with Yeshua brings you as much joy

SonOfAdam · 02-02-2012 4:29pm

They kept sabbath because they were jews - Paul rebukes Peter for forcing gentile believers to follow jewish customs - that's the difference. Gentiles were not bound to adopt customs that were not theirs - the jews could hold on to their custom if they believed it came to them by faith and Paul says that whether you keep them or not it's a matter for yourself and God.

Paul preached in synagogue because that's where people met - but he preached Christ - the stone that was rejected - he was also run out of a few of them.

As for keeping sabbath - if your conscience tells you to do so , then do.
whether it's a Saturday, Sunday or any other day, for that matter, for me it's of no importance. Every day is the Lord's Day, no one more special than the other - but that's just my opinion and like many minutiae my salvation doesn't depend on it.

I have faith in Jesus and trust that what He has done is sufficient without me trying to follow 900 or so laws that I couldn't possibly keep. I commend you for your fervour - I think it an unnecessary stumbling block but if you find intimacy with Jesus (Yeshua) doing what you do - then that's great. We come from many walks - diversity is no bad thing

Tinyark · 02-02-2012 6:40pm

well i enjoy it

and passover etc. makes me think about the blood of the lamb in every aspect.

Shalom

wolfsbane · 05-02-2012 7:44pm

Tinyark wrote: »

well i enjoy it and passover etc. makes me think about the blood of the lamb in every aspect.

Shalom

The best of Christians differ on the keeping of the Sabbath, so let's pass by that for the moment as I seek to see your meaning about Christians keeping the Law.

Do you say Gentile Christians like myself must keep the dietary laws of Moses? And the laws about clean and unclean items? Mixed fabrics? Circumcision?

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Galatians 5:2 Indeed I, Paul, say to you that if you become circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing.

Tinyark · 05-02-2012 8:44pm

wolfsbane wrote: »

Tinyark wrote: »

well i enjoy it and passover etc. makes me think about the blood of the lamb in every aspect.

Shalom

The best of Christians differ on the keeping of the Sabbath, so let's pass by that for the moment as I seek to see your meaning about Christians keeping the Law.

Do you say Gentile Christians like myself must keep the dietary laws of Moses? And the laws about clean and unclean items? Mixed fabrics? Circumcision?

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Galatians 5:2 Indeed I, Paul, say to you that if you become circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing.

I'm not saying 'you must do' anything

And I might add I'm a gentile, I'm also part of Israel.

Matthew 5:19

New International Version (NIV)
19 Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Personally my faith path is this.

Grace redemmed the 'cost' of my sin. Sin is still there but i do not have to pay the ultimate cost 'death'. Sin still remains though.

My love for G-d leads me to have the will to be obediant to the bible in all areas that pertain to me as a gentile.

This rather nicely outlines a little of messianic or hebraic roots thinking on just a small part of what we try to adhere to....

Acts-Chapter-15

wolfsbane · 08-02-2012 10:10pm

Tinyark wrote: »

I'm not saying 'you must do' anything

And I might add I'm a gentile, I'm also part of Israel.

Matthew 5:19

New International Version (NIV)
19 Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Personally my faith path is this.

Grace redemmed the 'cost' of my sin. Sin is still there but i do not have to pay the ultimate cost 'death'. Sin still remains though.

My love for G-d leads me to have the will to be obediant to the bible in all areas that pertain to me as a gentile.

This rather nicely outlines a little of messianic or hebraic roots thinking on just a small part of what we try to adhere to....

Acts-Chapter-15

The article really forces a meaning on Acts 15 that is nonsense. It tries to say Paul's objection was to adult circumcision rather than just circumcision being imposed on Gentiles. As if Abraham was not circumcised as an adult! Or any of the later Gentile converts of the OT.

No, it won't do. You/they are saying Gentiles must keep the Law of Moses to be good Christians. That's a dangerous error - not far from the false gospel of saying they must keep the Law of Moses to genuine Christians.

Acts 15 did not pass on Moses to the Gentiles. The prohibition on idols, fornication and blood preceded Moses. From the Beginning it was a sin to worship idols, to fornicate, to eat blood or anything whose blood was not poured out (anything strangled). Noah and his family were the first to be permitted to eat flesh, and that is where the commandment comes from.

Gentiles have no business circumcising their boys for religious reasons. Not for abstaining from eating 'unclean' animals for religious reasons. Nor are they obliged to keep sabbath days, new moons, etc. Those were the shadows; Christ has fulfilled them all.

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Galatians 5:2 Indeed I, Paul, say to you that if you become circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing.

Tinyark · 08-02-2012 10:41pm

wolfsbane wrote: »

The article really forces a meaning on Acts 15 that is nonsense. It tries to say Paul's objection was to adult circumcision rather than just circumcision being imposed on Gentiles. As if Abraham was not circumcised as an adult! Or any of the later Gentile converts of the OT.

No, it won't do. You/they are saying Gentiles must keep the Law of Moses to be good Christians. That's a dangerous error - not far from the false gospel of saying they must keep the Law of Moses to genuine Christians.

Acts 15 did not pass on Moses to the Gentiles. The prohibition on idols, fornication and blood preceded Moses. From the Beginning it was a sin to worship idols, to fornicate, to eat blood or anything whose blood was not poured out (anything strangled). Noah and his family were the first to be permitted to eat flesh, and that is where the commandment comes from.

Gentiles have no business circumcising their boys for religious reasons. Not for abstaining from eating 'unclean' animals for religious reasons. Nor are they obliged to keep sabbath days, new moons, etc. Those were the shadows; Christ has fulfilled them all.

***************************************************************
Galatians 5:2 Indeed I, Paul, say to you that if you become circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing.

I dont remember ever saying anyone has to follow any of these doctines?

Personally it make more sense to me that the apostles, who continued to follow Torah observances for there whole life, quotes on Torah as regards to what to do when bringing in Gentiles into the fold. 1 century mindset and not 4th century Roman Church Liturgy.

These are shadows.. this meant they are reflections, connected to christ. They are pictures of christ because christ was the Torah.

Anyway.. thats my take.

I certainly am not enforcing my ideas on people. As i seem to keep repeating.

Blessed is the Lord our God, King of the Universe who opens our heart to the scriptures.

wolfsbane · 12-02-2012 6:58pm

Tinyark said:

I dont remember ever saying anyone has to follow any of these doctines?

Hmm. You say that these are God's laws, but that we can refuse to keep them and not be guilty of sin???

Personally it make more sense to me that the apostles, who continued to follow Torah observances for there whole life, quotes on Torah as regards to what to do when bringing in Gentiles into the fold. 1 century mindset and not 4th century Roman Church Liturgy.

The apostles did not say they or the Gentiles are obliged to keep the Law of Moses. They kept them as a choice - evidently to maintain as good relationship as possible with their unconverted neighbours.

But they did say it was an obligation not to consume blood. That is a law from Noah, not from Moses.

But I agree that many traditions of men have been added to churches after the apostolic age. They are just as wrong as any OC obligations today.

These are shadows.. this meant they are reflections, connected to christ. They are pictures of christ because christ was the Torah.

Shadows, reflections - that gave way to the reality of Christ. It is sinful to return to these weak and beggarly elements as an obligation.

Anyway.. thats my take.

I certainly am not enforcing my ideas on people. As i seem to keep repeating.

Can you confirm your understanding of me as a Christian eating pork for my lunch today? Did I sin in doing so?

Blessed is the Lord our God, King of the Universe who opens our heart to the scriptures.

Amen!

****************************************************************
Galatians 5:2 Indeed I, Paul, say to you that if you become circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing.

Tinyark · 13-02-2012 2:04pm

Hi.. Sorry for the slow response.

Did you sin while eating pork? No.. i had some for lunch yesterday. Would i eat sausages? No, because they may contain blood. Nearly all slaughter houses are required to drain the blood from an animal before the meat can be sold. Sausages contain.. well lets say all sorts, i prefer not to chance it.... and i LOVE sauages and black pudding..

...this my illustrate my faith choice.

Of course i look at the apostles for guidence. Outside of the 4 gosples and acts we are given alot of fine teachings from Yeshuas disiples. I must always return to Christ though. He was g-d. His spirit is G-ds spirit.

Christ followed the Jewish Law. He was a practising Jew.

He did not come to start a new religion but to fulfill the Torah. Its hard for me to believe G-d created the Torah, (an object that was supposed to BE the Messiah in word form) and then after the miracle of the cross and the message of the ressurection decide that he changed his mind.

I do not follow sabbath because i have to. I could choose not to. Christ didn't choose not too. He did'nt preach not too. Even the apostles kept it. Why would they keep it put preach they did not need to?

Because G-d said to keep it forever?

Probably.

As a believer i take the whole bible in. I try to read as much about the context, believe and language of the time as i can. Does one have to do this? No, but i have a hunger for the context of Christs life.

I keep sabbath because i can. G-d in his plan set aside certain things for him. As a child of G-d i can chose to do the least i can. I chose to do the most i can within my means. If G-d says to keep sabbath, i will try too. He did not say this exclusively to the Hebrews or even to the Tribes but to the first men and woman. He places provision in the Torah for Gentiles who travelled with the Hebrews.

I am not hung up on law. I do because i can in almost all cases, not because i must.

If Christ had not ascended into Heaven, whould be be practising Sabbath? Saying the blesssing he said at passover? Yes.. why wouldn't he. He did then for this whole life.

As for sin. The 'cost' or 'payment' for the sin in man is his spiritual death from G-d. His constant and forever seperation from G-d.
As a believer i believe when Christ died he was the Ultimate burnt offering.. the Final Blood of the passover.

His attonment meant my Sins are payed for. However this doesnt mean i cant sin. The bible says we are the temple. That Jesus was the boundry wall, torn down between the Gentiles and Jews. If we sin, as we all do every day, we know that when we cast the sin out it is paid for in full.

Thats it. As long as i keep Jesus front and formost in my heart and live and live in him and him through me then i am in christ.

Then why try to follow Torah? Why try to follow biblical commandments?

Because they make HaShem happy. They are things he put in place to try to have his followers achieve grace through faith and devotion.

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]I think Jesus said the Keeping Toraj as a mean to be redeemed and saved is not the answer but keeping Torah as a way to be straight and pleasing to G-d is still valid and has not changed.[/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Matthew 5:17-19 [/FONT]

I follow sabbath as a devotion. A fantasic excuse to take 24 hours and devote them to g-d. To listen to the words Yeshua spoke and to hear his footsteps.

I'm not converting. Each to his own. Just answering questions.

Mark Driscoll said, being a christian is not about living a life pleasing to G-d but about living a life when Jesus is in your heart and mind on everything thing to think and do.

For me, these devotions that G-d put in place help me take part in practisice i KNOW G-d is happy about and that exault him.

Your friend in Yeshua

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]

[/FONT]

wolfsbane · 20-02-2012 8:04pm

Tinyark said:

Hi.. Sorry for the slow response.

I'm in the same boat.:D

Did you sin while eating pork? No.. i had some for lunch yesterday. Would i eat sausages? No, because they may contain blood. Nearly all slaughter houses are required to drain the blood from an animal before the meat can be sold. Sausages contain.. well lets say all sorts, i prefer not to chance it.... and i LOVE sauages and black pudding..

...this my illustrate my faith choice.

That's very helpful. So you are not keeping the Law of Moses, rather the NT Law. That is my position too. BTW, I must look into the sausage issue - I am not aware that they contain blood. I eat little of them because they contain so much fat. I used to eat black pudding - until I saw the Acts 15 prohibition.

Of course i look at the apostles for guidence. Outside of the 4 gosples and acts we are given alot of fine teachings from Yeshuas disiples. I must always return to Christ though. He was g-d. His spirit is G-ds spirit.

Hmm. The apostles are infallible teachers of Christ's gospel. They are not just great human commentators. What Christ had not time to convey, He sent them to bring to us.

Christ followed the Jewish Law. He was a practising Jew.

Indeed, born under Moses' Law, and kept it perfectly. But we are not under Moses' Law - rather we are under/in law to Christ.

He did not come to start a new religion but to fulfill the Torah.

Which He did - but then set up the New Covenant, under which circumcision and all the 'touch not, taste nots' of Moses no longer apply.

Its hard for me to believe G-d created the Torah, (an object that was supposed to BE the Messiah in word form) and then after the miracle of the cross and the message of the ressurection decide that he changed his mind.

The Law of Moses was a type and shadow of Christ. Now that He has come, we are no longer under its discipline. We are under Christ's.

I do not follow sabbath because i have to.

By 'have to' I mean be under moral obligation to do. That God commands us to keep it and all the other laws of Moses.

I could choose not to.

Like you could choose not to love your neighbour as yourself? Such a choice would be sin.

Christ didn't choose not too. He did'nt preach not too.

Because He was under the Law. He never ate pork either. He kept the whole of the Law of Moses.

Even the apostles kept it. Why would they keep it put preach they did not need to?

Did they? Or if they did, did they do so because God commanded it or because they wished not to cause offence to their Jewish fellow-countrymen?

Because G-d said to keep it forever?

Was not the Law of Moses a 'forever'? Forever if it had been obeyed. Forever if it had not been fulfilled and set aside.

As a believer i take the whole bible in. I try to read as much about the context, believe and language of the time as i can. Does one have to do this? No, but i have a hunger for the context of Christs life.

I keep sabbath because i can. G-d in his plan set aside certain things for him. As a child of G-d i can chose to do the least i can. I chose to do the most i can within my means. If G-d says to keep sabbath, i will try too. He did not say this exclusively to the Hebrews or even to the Tribes but to the first men and woman. He places provision in the Torah for Gentiles who travelled with the Hebrews.

The provision for Gentiles keeping the Law of Moses was because the Old Covenant was in operation - a nation under its authority, and strangers who came in had to comply. That Covenant went with Christ's death and resurrection. Gentiles worship with Jews in the New Covenant without the need to be circumcised or keep the food and dietary laws of Moses.

I am not hung up on law. I do because i can in almost all cases, not because i must.

I'm sorry - you seem to be jumping back and forth about whether God commands you to keep the Law or not. If He commands us to keep all the laws Christ kept, it is a sin not to.

If Christ had not ascended into Heaven, whould be be practising Sabbath? Saying the blesssing he said at passover? Yes.. why wouldn't he. He did then for this whole life.

True. The New Covenant would not have replaced the Mosaic Covenant. Circumcision and all the other bits would still be mandatory.

As for sin. The 'cost' or 'payment' for the sin in man is his spiritual death from G-d. His constant and forever seperation from G-d.
As a believer i believe when Christ died he was the Ultimate burnt offering.. the Final Blood of the passover.

His attonment meant my Sins are payed for. However this doesnt mean i cant sin. The bible says we are the temple. That Jesus was the boundry wall, torn down between the Gentiles and Jews. If we sin, as we all do every day, we know that when we cast the sin out it is paid for in full.

Thats it. As long as i keep Jesus front and formost in my heart and live and live in him and him through me then i am in christ.

Then why try to follow Torah? Why try to follow biblical commandments?

Because they make HaShem happy.

Yes - we try not to sin because we love God and want to do His will. But that means I must be circumcised and keep the whole Law of Moses IF that Law is still mandatory for His children.

They are things he put in place to try to have his followers achieve grace through faith and devotion.

They were types and shadows, school-rules to discipline the godly until Christ would come and bring them to maturity. Then they would pass away.

A second purpose was to prove how impossible it was for sinful men to keep God's holy law. The commandments came to stir up the sinful mind to sin in spite of the knowledge of God's will - so that sin would be seen as exceedingly sinful. The Law brought death, not life.

I think Jesus said the Keeping Toraj as a mean to be redeemed and saved is not the answer but keeping Torah as a way to be straight and pleasing to G-d is still valid and has not changed. Matthew 5:17-19

Christ fulfilled the Torah. Then He replaced it. If it is still His command to us, then Paul got it wrong when he said: Romans 14:14 I know and am convinced by the Lord Jesus that there is nothing unclean of itself; but to him who considers anything to be unclean, to him it is unclean.
And: Colossians 2:16 So let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon or sabbaths, 17 which are a shadow of things to come, but the substance is of Christ.

I follow sabbath as a devotion. A fantasic excuse to take 24 hours and devote them to g-d. To listen to the words Yeshua spoke and to hear his footsteps.

That's great - and you are free to do so and do not sin by doing it. Others who do not observe the day are also free to do so and do not sin by not doing it.

I'm not converting. Each to his own. Just answering questions.

But if you think I'm sinning in not keeping Moses, then you should confront me!

Mark Driscoll said, being a christian is not about living a life pleasing to G-d but about living a life when Jesus is in your heart and mind on everything thing to think and do.

Which amounts to the same thing.

For me, these devotions that G-d put in place help me take part in practisice i KNOW G-d is happy about and that exault him.

And I'm not despising you for it. Only showing you it is a matter of preference, not obligation.

Your friend in Yeshua

Blessings to you, my brother in Yeshua.

*******************************************************************
Romans 14:2 For one believes he may eat all things, but he who is weak eats only vegetables. 3 Let not him who eats despise him who does not eat, and let not him who does not eat judge him who eats; for God has received him. 4 Who are you to judge another’s servant? To his own master he stands or falls. Indeed, he will be made to stand, for God is able to make him stand.

Tinyark · 16-04-2012 12:33pm

Just a small post to any new readers looking for a more hebrew roots fellowship

we very recently launched a blog www.spiritualbabies.net

much study has occured over the last few months

If any one is interested please visit us or some great info can be found:

www.rabbiscott.com
www.crownofmessiah.com
www.ffoz.com

Mat 24:20 Pray that your flight will not take place in winter or on the Sabbath.

Although Jesus said Only the Father know when he shall come again, he did expect Sabbath to be help at that time. Indeed, John even mentions Sabbath in Revelations.

I love that passage.. it shows such concern for his people.

JimiTime · 16-04-2012 1:50pm

Tinyark wrote: »

Just a small post to any new readers looking for a more hebrew roots fellowship
we very recently launched a blog www.spiritualbabies.net

much study has occured over the last few months

If any one is interested please visit us or some great info can be found:

www.rabbiscott.com
www.crownofmessiah.com
www.ffoz.com

Mat 24:20 Pray that your flight will not take place in winter or on the Sabbath.

Although Jesus said Only the Father know when he shall come again, he did expect Sabbath to be help at that time. Indeed, John even mentions Sabbath in Revelations.

I love that passage.. it shows such concern for his people.

Hi Tinyark. You should check out Michael Brown at www.askdrbrown.org He's a messianic Jew, and his insights are fantastic. He has some great books you'd probably be into like 'Answering Jewish objections to Jesus' etc. He also strikes a great balance on the whole Jewish/Christian thing in terms of feast observance etc. I've found him a wealth of knowledge and inspiration.

Tinyark · 16-04-2012 2:19pm

Thanks alot

ill definitely go and see what he has to say

wolfsbane · 22-04-2012 8:08pm

You might like this new (free) on-line journal about Israel in God's purpose:
ONE16 is CWI’s free online theological journal. The subject of Israel and the Jewish people is one of the most contentious and divisive issues within evangelicalism, and has generated a variety of opinions, attitudes and controversies. ONE16 is our attempt to address some of the issues surrounding Israel and to generate some light rather than heat.
http://www.cwi.org.uk/public/library/onlinepublications.html?utm_source=CWI+Supporters&utm_campaign=063e986f15-ONE16_1_main_list4_20_2012&utm_medium=email

********************************************************************
Romans 11:25 For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written:
“The Deliverer will come out of Zion,
And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob;
27 For this is My covenant with them,
When I take away their sins.”

sinsin · 27-04-2012 3:42am

Just some advice to Christians.
Jesus is your Messiah.
If you are waiting for the Jewish Messiah and believe that Jesus was a charlatan the same as Shabbatai Tzvi and Jacob Frank,then this is for you.
I am no expert but I am certain that waiting for the Jewish Messiah means that you believe Jesus was a ? and you want to convert to Judaism.

Be very cautious and get some advice as the OP is moving about rapidly and not addressing the issue clearly in everyday English.

PDN · 27-04-2012 4:14am

sinsin wrote: »

Just some advice to Christians.
Jesus is your Messiah.
If you are waiting for the Jewish Messiah and believe that Jesus was a charlatan the same as Shabbatai Tzvi and Jacob Frank,then this is for you.
I am no expert but I am certain that waiting for the Jewish Messiah means that you believe Jesus was a ? and you want to convert to Judaism.

Be very cautious and get some advice as the OP is moving about rapidly and not addressing the issue clearly in everyday English.

I would strongly suggest you try reading up on Messianic Jews and what they believe. Messianic Jews retain their Jewish roots yet worship Jesus as the Messiah.

(Btw, I do not subscribe to Messianic Judaism myself, I have grave reservations about it, but I felt it was important to correct your mischaracterisation of their position)

Tinyark · 27-04-2012 11:24am

Hi everyone!

Sinsin... just to clarify..

Jesus (as the English translation of the greek name for Yeshua) was, is and was always to be Messiah.

'Messianic Jews' and Torah Observant Gentiles (or.. hebrew roots etc what ever people want to call them) believe in the Cross and in Yeshua..

are we waiting for a Jewish Messiah to come again? Yes!

After all He was Jewish lol. He was circumsised at 8 days and named like all other Jewish babies, attended Synagogue, held passover (in fact all the Jewish feasts) as did Paul, James, Peter and the rest of the disciples for hundreds of years

Like it or not, Christianity is built on the Cross of a Jewish Messiah and the Grace given to us all is from the G-d of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

These are not things i say to cause a fight. They are simple items that are truth.

Do these mean you cannot worship a blond haired, blue eyed Jesus that played with lambs and children? Of course not.. but remember that Jesus whipped the stall holders of the Temple and preached we are to keep his commandments.

The bible is the awesome word of G-d.. but needs to be read in context and which a knowledge of what was happening at the time.

Shabbat Shalom..

have a wonderful weekend!

For the King

wolfsbane · 28-04-2012 8:15pm

Tinyark wrote: »

Hi everyone!

Sinsin... just to clarify..

Jesus (as the English translation of the greek name for Yeshua) was, is and was always to be Messiah.

'Messianic Jews' and Torah Observant Gentiles (or.. hebrew roots etc what ever people want to call them) believe in the Cross and in Yeshua..

are we waiting for a Jewish Messiah to come again? Yes!

After all He was Jewish lol. He was circumsised at 8 days and named like all other Jewish babies, attended Synagogue, held passover (in fact all the Jewish feasts) as did Paul, James, Peter and the rest of the disciples for hundreds of years

Like it or not, Christianity is built on the Cross of a Jewish Messiah and the Grace given to us all is from the G-d of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

These are not things i say to cause a fight. They are simple items that are truth.

Do these mean you cannot worship a blond haired, blue eyed Jesus that played with lambs and children? Of course not.. but remember that Jesus whipped the stall holders of the Temple and preached we are to keep his commandments.

The bible is the awesome word of G-d.. but needs to be read in context and which a knowledge of what was happening at the time.

Shabbat Shalom..

have a wonderful weekend!

For the King

I agree with that, my brother - but we need to remember that Jesus fulfilled the Old Covenant and thus abolished it. He brought in the New Covenant, and its laws are not identical to the laws of the Old Covenant.

For example, gone are the requirements for circumcision, abstention from unclean meats, observance of holy days.

*********************************************************************
Galatians 3:21 Is the law then against the promises of God? Certainly not! For if there had been a law given which could have given life, truly righteousness would have been by the law. 22 But the Scripture has confined all under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe. 23 But before faith came, we were kept under guard by the law, kept for the faith which would afterward be revealed. 24 Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith. 25 But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.

Tinyark · 28-04-2012 8:43pm

Thanks for the post Wolfsbane

Have a great week in the Kings love.

*******************************************************************************

1Cor 5:6 Your glorying is not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump? 7 Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our Passover is sacrificed for us: 8 Therefore LET US KEEP THE FEAST, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.

RandsomedChild · 26-05-2012 5:48am

Reading this thread gives me cause for concern. I am always puzzled by the confusion.

The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob = YHWH = The One True God = The Creator

Yeshua (Jesus) = Messiah (Christ)

Those two things are our common ground. They are absolute.

Messianics believe in these fundamental truths. We also believe in the Holy Spirit. Where we differ from "mainstream Christianity" is:
1. We do not celebrate man made holidays, but keep the Holy Feast Days as set up by Our Heavenly Father...
* Ex 12:24 " And you shall observe this thing as an ordinance for you and your sons forever." ( referring to the Passover)
2. We believe that the Torah is alive and well in the 21st Century. The Instruction (mistranslated as Law) is still in effect.
* John 14:15 "If you love Me, then keep My commandments." (Yeshua speaking. He and the Father are one, so the commandments are not just the 2 he said the Torah and the Prophets were "hung on". Almost everything Yeshua said was quoting the Scripture- which was only the OT.)
3. We are relearning the Jewish traditions ( not for salvation) for a better understanding of the Scriptures and teachings of Yeshua. Much of His teachings are hidden from us, when we do not understand the culture in which they were given.
4. We choose the Hebrew names, mostly because every Hebrew name is a small sentence and means something. Not so in some other languages.
* YHWH = Yehovah=Yah (as I understand it, per Nehemia Gordon and Keith Johnson) also pronounced Yahweh by many. We are told to "Call upon the Name of the Lord"...How can we call upon His name, unless we learn it?
* Yeshua / Y'shua = means Yehovah's salvation or Yehovah saves
5. We believe Yeshua saves by grace and we serve out of love for Him. He removes the curse of the "Law" ( better translated Instructions). John 14:16 "And I will petition the Father, and He will give another one which will end the curse+, the He may remain with you forever," This is referring to the Holy Spirit ( Spirit of Truth). The word "curse" in this verse comes from an Aramaic word that is commented on, in my Hebrew translation of the NT. "The Aramaic word here literally translates as the one who ends the curse, which is referring to the curse of Adam at creation for disobeying Elohim, and is lifted through the Holy Spirit." (HalleluYah!!)

I have found many good teachings on the internet. Youtube has many videos, but there is also alot of garbage out there. The most scripturally accurate versions of videos I have found are:
Michael Rood -A Rood Awakening
Kieth Bailey - The House of Israel
Brad Scott - The Wild Vine Ministries
Jim Staley - Passion for Truth Ministry
Nehemia Gordon - Karaite Jew, Scholar, and Professor of Ancient Hebrew
Keith Johnson - Methodist Preacher & Author

Oh, I almost forgot one of the main things we believe and it is just common place for me, so almost forgot it, lol. We believe in the 7th Day Sabbath of the Holy Father, per Genisi 2:3.

We also know that Yeshua was teaching that we are to follow the teachings of Moses ( the Law) but not the teachings of men....the Rabbinical Laws, the Papal Dogma, nor the Western Christian Dogma. We are all instructed to study Scripture and to learn on our own. We are each to "work out our own salvation with fear and trembling".

If you need to get a perspective on the size and awesome power of our Creator...Look up Louie Giglio on Youtube. Check out his "How Great is our God" video...full version.

He is awesome, not Messianic, but awesome and loves The Father!!

There is much to the Messianic belief and the reason for not calling ourselves "Jewish" nor "Christian"( r/t the holidays here).
Yeshua was not a "Christian" He was not Greek. He was an Israelite and kept the feasts and the Sabbaths and expected us to as well. "Be ye perfect, even as I am perfect"....Yeshua's own words.:)

RandsomedChild · 26-05-2012 6:17am

wolfsbane wrote: »

I agree with that, my brother - but we need to remember that Jesus fulfilled the Old Covenant and thus abolished it. He brought in the New Covenant, and its laws are not identical to the laws of the Old Covenant.

For example, gone are the requirements for circumcision, abstention from unclean meats, observance of holy days.

*********************************************************************
Galatians 3:21 Is the law then against the promises of God? Certainly not! For if there had been a law given which could have given life, truly righteousness would have been by the law. 22 But the Scripture has confined all under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe. 23 But before faith came, we were kept under guard by the law, kept for the faith which would afterward be revealed. 24 Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith. 25 But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.

1. Jesus fulfilled the Old Covenant:
Maybe a word study on the words translated as "New Covenant" would help. The word translated as "New" means to renew. The portion of the covenant that was done away with was the lack of forgiveness under the animal blood. Yeshua's blood purchased our forgiveness by the sprinkling of it. This is the renewal. Circumcision was a sign of the old covenant, a set apart flesh and blood symbol of the covenant. The new covenant is a renewal of the old with the forgiveness via the precious blood of Messiah.
2. The New Covenant: YHWH made a covenant with Moses and the people of Israel. Israel kept "playing the harlot" and going after strange gods. YHWH was angry and divorced Israel. He broke the staff of the covenant. However, His own prophecies said that He would gather Israel to Himself as His bride. How can this be, if by His own law, He cannot remarry her...she has played the harlot. Yeshua HAD to be YHWH. He HAD to die, to satisfy the requirement of the Law. This is the only way YHWH could take His bride, in the end. The husband had to die, to free Israel for remarriage.

There is NO scripture to support eating of unclean meats. NONE.

No scripture supporting changing of His Holy Feast Days!

The Law is not done away....YHWH is the same today, yesterday and forever. Psalm 111: 7&8

Rev. 12:17 "...those keeping the commandments of YHWH and having the testimony of Yeshua Messiah."

philologos · 26-05-2012 7:47am

RandsomedChild wrote: »

There is NO scripture to support eating of unclean meats. NONE.

Your position is becoming less and less clear now. There are passages that clearly suggest that dietary laws have been fulfilled. Mark 7 is one of them.

Mark 7:14-23 wrote:

And he called the people to him again and said to them, “Hear me, all of you, and understand: There is nothing outside a person that by going into him can defile him, but the things that come out of a person are what defile him.” And when he had entered the house and left the people, his disciples asked him about the parable. And he said to them, “Then are you also without understanding? Do you not see that whatever goes into a person from outside cannot defile him, since it enters not his heart but his stomach, and is expelled?” ( Thus he declared all foods clean.) And he said, “What comes out of a person is what defiles him. For from within, out of the heart of man, come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery, coveting, wickedness, deceit, sensuality, envy, slander, pride, foolishness. All these evil things come from within, and they defile a person.”

There are plenty of other references in the New Testament but that is one of them.

As for observing feast days and rituals. Again the New Testament is quite clear on it. One reference that is useful is.

Colossians 2:16-17 wrote:

Therefore let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and drink, or with regard to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath. These are a shadow of the things to come, but the substance belongs to Christ. Let no one disqualify you, insisting on asceticism and worship of angels, going on in detail about visions, puffed up without reason by his sensuous mind, and not holding fast to the Head, from whom the whole body, nourished and knit together through its joints and ligaments, grows with a growth that is from God.

The rituals and festivals point to Jesus. There's no obligation for any Christian to observe them, likewise there is no prohibition.

Tinyark · 26-05-2012 9:10am

philologos wrote: »

Your position is becoming less and less clear now. There are passages that clearly suggest that dietary laws have been fulfilled. Mark 7 is one of them.

There are plenty of other references in the New Testament but that is one of them.

As for observing feast days and rituals. Again the New Testament is quite clear on it. One reference that is useful is.

The rituals and festivals point to Jesus. There's no obligation for any Christian to observe them, likewise there is no prohibition.

The phrase about 'declaring all foods clean' is not in the original Greek, check a few different translations into KJV and other (better ones) and it it not in scripture. If Jesus declared all food clean then why did Peter protest years later during his vision saying to G-d 'Me? No! I have never defiled myself with unclean food!' (paraphrase)

Besides, that line of text simply is not there. Also it is important to remember bracketed and italic words are not in the original text.. the translators added them.

As regards the col: quote. There is quite a story in the letters of Paul outlining the fact people where trying to condemn him as a man who did not preach the word of G-d. He declares, as does James and Peter, that he only EVER spoke the 'law' of G-d. It is important to realise the church teaches the letters of Paul but not the context. 'Christians' prefer the easy path, the broad way.. it is easier to imagine Paul, a servant of Jesus writing to a new set of believers,

'hey! look i know G-d has for 4000 years been REALLY clear within His written word what we are and are not to do.. and i know He send Jesus, His son to die for the cost of our Sin, and i know that these sins are the breaking of the laws and i know that Jesus said if you love me you will keep my commandments... but... you dont have too.. take it from me.. its fine. Dont worry about them.'

Paul taught the Torah 'Teachings'. Jesus only every expanded Torah to people.. after all he WAS the the WORD.

Paul was writing to a group of people whom He already instructed.. a group of people who where a mixed group of gentiles and Jewish believers in Messiah.

Paul was not saying 'in general dont worry about the feast days' he was saying 'dont not let your unbelieving pagan friends and family bother you when you observe the Lords day'.

The 'shadows of things to come' reference is not a dead one.. the feasts and signs of our wonderful creator are messages of when Messiah is comming back.

This weekend is Shavuot, ( a G-d given feast not man made ).. The lord G-d asked His people to count 49 days from Passover and on the next day observe Shavout. The Greeks translating this called the final day 'the 50' that is to say, Pentecost.

Acts 2 outlines the pouring of the holy spirit in the temple room, This is not the first time the Holy Spirit came to earth...
Also on the VERY SAME DAY.. Moses received the revelation and teaching from G-d at Sinai.

Jesus was slain at Passover to the very same HOUR that G-d asked for the lambs to be sacrificed at temple.

The other feasts of the lord point to His return. The lunar and solar eclipses mentioned on Revelation fall on these Feast days in 2014 and 2015.. and after that they never fall on G-d feast days again.. ever.

www.spiritualbabies.net

Tinyark · 26-05-2012 9:23am

I would like to just say..

there is no obligation for 'Christians' to follow the obserances G-d set out for all His children.

Grace saves, always has.. there are not cases of these observances in them self redeeming anyone in the whole bible.

However..

Scripture says is you love and believe in Jesus and G-d you will follow His commandments.

Many will come to Jesus and say, Lord Lord... look at all the things i did for you!

Jesus (whom John called the word and was the word ...) will say i (the law of G-d, word, teachings, Torah) do not recognise you.

I believe some followers of 'Jesus' who by a perfect default walk in there lives will reach salvation..

Yeshua (jesus's real name) said..

He who does not do the least of my commandments (word Mitzvot) and teaches others to do so will be called the least in the Kingdom.. He who does keeps (notice it is keep... because he is talking to a group who already KNEW and kept G-d teachings) them will be called the greated.

Ask yourself. What is Sin? Does Sin change?

Is Sin different now than in the beginning?

How can i sin?

Sin is always breaking G-ds law.. God is the same yesterday as today as forever.

The OT says, nothing can be added or taken away from the teachings of G-d..

Therefore.. the Sin is breaking the Law that is FOREVER in place set up by G-d.

Jesus does not take the sin.. only the COST of that Sin.. spiritual death. (its all in the New Testement)

philologos · 26-05-2012 9:50am

No, there is no obligation because we've been justified by Jesus' saving death on the cross. What we are called to do is live in a manner that is worthy of the Gospel. Recognising God's abundant grace leads us into a life whereby we follow Him.

The kind of Christianity that you are presenting fails to recognise that Jesus brought in a New Covenant agreement with mankind. As the Old Testament also makes explicitly clear. Read Jeremiah 31:31-34 and Hebrews 8 if you want a fuller understanding.

Someone else said that New Covenant in the Hebrew doesn't say New Covenant, but the following words make up the Jeremiah 31:31-34 passage:
2319. חָדָשׁ chadash (294a); from 2318; new:—new(47), New(2), new thing(1), new things(2), something new(1).
1285. בְּרִית berith (136b); from an unused word; a covenant:—allied(1), allies*(1), covenant(275), covenants(1), El-berith*(1), league(2), treaty(4).

There's no room for a Jewish supremacy in the Christian church. I have no issue with people deciding they might want to observe Jewish festivals, or eat kosher. It is clearly wrong to claim that Gentiles must do these also. Just take a quick read of Galatians.

Mark 7 in the Greek clearly includes the annotation, see my attached image with the passage in the ESV and the interlinear underneath. Your interpretation of Acts 10 is also a little bit suspect. You presume that the disciples actually understood Jesus' aim in Mark's Gospel all the way throughout. This isn't true. Mark's Gospel in chapter 8 for example shows that Peter only recognised Jesus was the Christ then. Mark's Gospel also shows serious misunderstandings amongst the disciples as to why Jesus had to die and be resurrected. It's highly likely that Peter didn't truly understand the significance of the events in Mark 7 until later.

Your position was strongly contended against by the Apostles in the early church right from the beginning. I can't take people arguing for Jewish supremacy in Christianity seriously because the New Testament explicitly lays out that Jew or Gentile, slave or free, male or female we're all one in Christ Jesus (Galatians 3:28).

Tinyark · 26-05-2012 12:25pm

philologos wrote: »

No, there is no obligation because we've been justified by Jesus' saving death on the cross. What we are called to do is live in a manner that is worthy of the Gospel. Recognising God's abundant grace leads us into a life whereby we follow Him.

The kind of Christianity that you are presenting fails to recognise that Jesus brought in a New Covenant agreement with mankind. As the Old Testament also makes explicitly clear. Read Jeremiah 31:31-34 and Hebrews 8 if you want a fuller understanding.

Someone else said that New Covenant in the Hebrew doesn't say New Covenant, but the following words make up the Jeremiah 31:31-34 passage:
2319. חָדָשׁ chadash (294a); from 2318; new:—new(47), New(2), new thing(1), new things(2), something new(1).
1285. בְּרִית berith (136b); from an unused word; a covenant:—allied(1), allies*(1), covenant(275), covenants(1), El-berith*(1), league(2), treaty(4).

There's no room for a Jewish supremacy in the Christian church. I have no issue with people deciding they might want to observe Jewish festivals, or eat kosher. It is clearly wrong to claim that Gentiles must do these also. Just take a quick read of Galatians.

Mark 7 in the Greek clearly includes the annotation, see my attached image with the passage in the ESV and the interlinear underneath. Your interpretation of Acts 10 is also a little bit suspect. You presume that the disciples actually understood Jesus' aim in Mark's Gospel all the way throughout. This isn't true. Mark's Gospel in chapter 8 for example shows that Peter only recognised Jesus was the Christ then. Mark's Gospel also shows serious misunderstandings amongst the disciples as to why Jesus had to die and be resurrected. It's highly likely that Peter didn't truly understand the significance of the events in Mark 7 until later.

Your position was strongly contended against by the Apostles in the early church right from the beginning. I can't take people arguing for Jewish supremacy in Christianity seriously because the New Testament explicitly lays out that Jew or Gentile, slave or free, male or female we're all one in Christ Jesus (Galatians 3:28).

If all foods are clean, maybe we should start eating hamsters, donkeys and rats.

Of course not? Why?

Mark 7 is about washing hands before eating and if having unclean hands before eating effects us. Not about food.

Also, food is defined as what Jesus and the scribes and in fact the whole of the Jewish people defined from Torah. The question here was not about food but handwashing. Everyone knew in this conversation which animals where clean and unclean and ONLY clean animal would have been considered food.

As regards to Jewish supremacy. That sounds odd. You as a Christian follow a Jewish messiah.

I will bow out for now.

It is only G-d who can make a change in your views

2peter says Paul was obedient and righteous to the teachings of G-d. That his letters where sometimes hard to understand for the ignorant and twisted by the lawless.

Shalom shalom.

Have a blessed day and Shavuot.

philologos · 26-05-2012 4:18pm

You mean if you ignore what I've already shown you in Mark 7 and the text in the brackets is contained in the Greek interlinear, and ignore the concept of a New Covenant as in Jeremiah 31, and ignore numerous passages in Paul's writing that suggests that the Mosaic law was fulfilled through Christ, and that people shouldn't feel guilty about eating anything that is in the market in 1 Corinthians 10:23-33.

As for eating hamster, donkeys (Edit: my bad - they don't have split hooves donkeys are actually kosher!), and rats as a Christian, I don't believe the New Covenant precludes people eating any of those things. They don't appeal to me in the slightest though

.

Romans 14:1-12 gives us more groundwork on ritual days, or food consumption.

In terms of Mark 7, you're correct that the context is in terms of washing hands, but the implication of Jesus' answer is further reaching. He says that all that is unclean comes out of the mouth, it is not what goes in. Jesus is the bearer of the New Covenant, and more than just a bearer, a beloved Son.

You seem to have missed my point about Jewish supremacy. I know that Jesus was Jewish, and I know that the Apostles were Jewish. What I mean is simple. It isn't that Jewish people or Judaism is better, rather it is that Jews and Gentiles are one under Christ. We are one under the Gospel.

As I've said before. I have no issue whatsoever with there being Jewish forms of Christianity, infact I would praise such a development. What I do have an issue with is insisting that Gentiles follow Jewish ritual laws (such as dietary laws and observing Jewish feasts) is incompatible with the New Testament and what it has to tell us about who Jesus is, and more importantly why He came.

Tinyark · 26-05-2012 4:38pm

my point is unclean animal would not have been considered 'food'. It would never have crossed peoples minds to eat pork anymore than we would consider eating hamster.

Jesus still considers swine abhorent, keeps the feasts and sabbath and torah in revelation.

G-d is forever, His word is forever.. there are no lies in the word of

g-d only in the way it is taught.

The word of G-d says you cannot add or take away from the law of G-d.

anything that is thought to do this has to be an error on behalf of the reader.. or the reader does not believe in the word of G-d.

The word is always the tool to define the word.

philologos · 26-05-2012 4:44pm

Under the Old Covenant, God told the Jewish people to be distinct from the nations around them until the point by which His grace would be displayed to all men. As Jesus has come, there is no such distinction any longer, we're all under Christ (Ephesians 2:1-10). We were far off, by nature children of wrath, but Jesus came and broke the division.

Again, you've provided no reasoning to suggest why Paul and Jesus both say that the dietary laws have been fulfilled, and you've provided no reasoning as to why Jesus and the Tanakh actually proclaimed a New Covenant:

Jeremiah 31:31-32 wrote:

“Behold, the days are coming, declares the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah, not like the covenant that I made with their fathers on the day when I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, my covenant that they broke, though I was their husband, declares the LORD.

How do you explain Romans 14, 1 Corinthians 10, and Mark 7, and also Jeremiah 31:31-34? I'm interested in discussing this with you, but you seem to be ignoring these passages.

It seems, either God formed a new covenant agreement with mankind, or God has left us in the old covenant entirely. Which is it?

Tinyark · 26-05-2012 5:07pm

Covenants are not 'new' and 'old'

Does G-d now flood the earth because of our sin? He made a covenant with Noah.. ? Doe the 'new' covenant with Abraham wipe out Noahs?

As for Romans 14 .. If we are to choose one day to worship that is not the Shabbat (G-ds day) then as least keep it. People do not even honour the day they choose to be the lords day.. church then home, dinner and football..

People always concentrate on Paul because paul is so easy to twist.

What about the actual words of Messiah?

I can not come to destroy the law but to fulfil it.. (better translated 'preach it to its fullest).. for not one jot or tittle (small marks used to adorn hebrew text) shall pass away from the law till heaven and earth passaway.

..

Messiah preached to follow the Torah. We was the Torah.

---

Honestly, im not trying to convert. Im trying to open eyes to the truth, but just like Pharaoh, this is a job for G-d, not me.

A loving heart brought me here to try and shed some context on the words of Paul (a Torah observant, Kosher, Shabbat and feast observing follower of Yeshua .. who said to all.. Follow me as i follow Him)..

I try only to show truth. The Bible is its own standard and absolutely the word of G-d. Psalms says the Torah is light, the way and the truth.

John said Yeshua was the word..

Yeshua said he was the light, the way and the truth.

Did Yeshua abolish himself on the cross?

The truth in this case is this, we are asked in Torah to show that faith brings grace and that true faith brings loving obedience. Obedience denies lawlessness and lawlessness leads to sin.

If we do not have the law (teachings) then we cannot have sin.

If there is not Sin why do we need to be saved? Actually how can we sin?

The Bible says to proclaim the Gospel or Good news.

The bible also says the Gospel was given to Abraham by G-d..so it cant simply be about the cross..

I proclaim this.

We all break G-ds commandments, the cost of this is spiritual death, if we believe in Yeshua, the son of G-d, and that His death on the cross in our place saves us then we can start afresh before G-d. Faith and love for G-d calls for our obedience to Him and His instruction, Just as Jesus walked within the law we are to do.. not for works but for faith and love and not wanting to sin..

Faith without works is dead.

Thanks for the discourse, it is plain to me your heart is hardened to the actual words of G-d in the books of moses.. it seems forever is not forever to some people.

Ill bow out now. Enjoy a blessed shabbat and i pray you have a wonderful walk with G-d. Shalom Shalom.

philologos · 26-05-2012 5:25pm

I'm confused as to how my heart is hardened to the word of God, when I am presenting Scripture to you, and presenting the early church position on Judaisers (people who insisted that Gentile Christians be Jewish).

It clearly presents two covenants. The Mosaic covenant for the Jews in the Torah bound State of Israel, and the New Covenant for Jews and Gentiles who will follow the Lord Jesus.

As for Paul, Paul lived like a Gentile when He was with Gentiles, and a Jew when He was with Jews. He advocated eating anything in the market without regarding it as a matter of conscience (1 Corinthians 10:23-33).

The Gospel was given to Abraham, because He acknowledged that He was justified by faith alone. By the by, it's incredibly important to remember that Jesus existed before Creation, and it is important to notice that irrespective of when the crucifixion happened, people past, present and future can be justified by it. Abraham was reckoned righteous through faith, and we his heirs of many nations can be justified by it as well. We are not justified by the law.

I agree by the by, faith without works which honour the Gospel is dead. We are justified by faith through the saving death of King Jesus. Jesus brought us into a new covenant relationship with God, because if we were under the old one, we'd be all guilty and rightfully deserving of hell. God in His mercy, created a new covenant so that we might be forgiven, and we might live according to grace rather than mere law.

Indeed John presents the distinction between Moses and Jesus beautifully:

John 1:17 wrote:

For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.

We obey God, by honouring the New Covenant which Jesus gave to us. What is fulfilled is no more. I don't have to worry about whether or not I mix different fabrics, or whether or not I eat a bit of shrimp or some bacon. The cultural division was broken by Jesus, the wall is gone (Ephesians 2:1-10). I am however called to have a heart after God, following Jesus step by step. I'm called to bring others to the knowledge of Him, and to live justly and honourably as He desires me to.

I don't think there's any twisting going on by simply presenting Paul's words, and indeed Jesus' teaching.

Oh and I have no doubt that a loving heart brought you here, I recognise your intention, but I find that what you've presented is mistaken, and that it was argued against in the early church.

Interested in Messianic Fellowship?

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