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UFO Phenomenon - Any real scientific material

  • 20-06-2011 10:26pm
    #1
    Gremlin
    Registered Users Posts: 358 ✭✭


    I'm genuinely interested in reading material on peer reviewed scientific study of UFO phenomenon. I find that much of the research in the area is clouded by self interest. What I mean is the sort who make a lot of money from selling books and dvds of recycled material. Whats much harder to find is published papers written by people with a science background who have no particular axe to grind one way or another.

    I am definitely in the sceptics camp on this particular issue however I do think this is an area which needs investigation by qualified individuals. Sadly the area is littered with a lot of claims by people who are neither qualified scientifically or motivationally to properly asses the phenomenon.

    I have come across some government research and declassified documents which don't really say an awful lot.

    So if you have anything of interest please let me know. Just to be clear what I am not looking for is, youtube links, links to sites offering to sell me books or dvds, sites claiming to have documentary evidence but actually produce nothing.

    Thanks in advance.


«1345

Comments

  • #2
    easychair
    Closed Accounts Posts: 905 ✭✭✭easychair


    It's notable that UFO's have only been around since the advent of aeroplanes.

    If there really is such a thing as UFO's, they would have been around for centuries. Curious that.


  • #3
    Gremlin
    Registered Users Posts: 358 ✭✭Gremlin


    Agreed easychair, its also noticable how the descriptions of 'flying saucers' with a little dome on top and three legs and a little green man inside changes into multi faceted, geometric designs, glowing orbs etc in keeping with the pace of sci-fi.

    In fairness if its Unidentified, and its flying and it is likely to be an object then its a UFO, what I don't see the evidence for is that UFO's are of ET origin.

    Clearly the vast majority of 'sightings' can be classified as either, mistaken naturally occurring or man made phenomenon, (meteors, satellites, fireworks, astronomical phenomenon etc....). People just don't understand what they are looking at. Another large group of sightings relate to pure lies and fanciful imaginations. The whole area is utterly confused by nonsense presented as evidence.

    What I'd like to see, if it exists, is the very best evidence to suggest that there is something worthy of further investigation. I'm not really holding my breath though.


  • #4
    murrayp4
    Registered Users Posts: 969 ✭✭✭murrayp4


    Hi Gremlin- I'm pretty interested in the phenomenon too. Unfortunately the subject is so overwhelmed by all the utter bullshít and mystical/psychic/utter nutter babble that it is often difficult to cut through to a proper rational evaluation.

    I have come across some scientific journals that deal with the topic but they seemed a little shoddy and I don't think there is anything up to date there.

    If I were to point you in any direction it would be towards the COMETA report commissioned by the French government. Also, there is a book now out authored by Leslie Kean which is a pretty compelling read. Kean has taken the best cases available and reproduced first hand testimonies of extremely credible people who have witnessed unexplained events. She takes into account events that have had multiple witnesses which were backed up by multiple modes e.g ground radar, on board radar and eyewitnesses- so the fact that something was there is difficult to dispute, the question is what that something is.


  • #5
    charlemont
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,725 ✭✭✭charlemont


    easychair wrote: »
    It's notable that UFO's have only been around since the advent of aeroplanes.

    If there really is such a thing as UFO's, they would have been around for centuries. Curious that.

    What kind of a comment is that ? if you haven't a rats arse about the subject then I suggest you surf the web for an hour and come back.:)


  • #6
    dyer
    Closed Accounts Posts: 598 ✭✭✭dyer


    if you guys really are looking for evidence, why not start by looking at the sky?

    there's such an interesting psychological factor involved in the subject.. kinda like everyones hesitant, some are very sure, some want concrete proof that they can smell, others just want a scientist to tell them everythings alright, and then well.. some are downright whack outta the ball park.

    i can tell you from first hand experience, if you see it for yourself, well then there's a much bigger picture to look at.

    i was reading a thread you started earlier gremlin..
    As someone who looks for a rational explanation in most things, my head tells me that the some combination of the above explains this, however even though 30 years have passed since this event, it refuses to leave me and deep down the need to understand this event still lingers.

    my experiences were so out of this world pretty much all of my friends ridicule me for it (bar one, whos had his own), in fact most times i cant even talk to anyone about them (here we go again syndrome) and that is really frustrating on so many levels.. thankfully we have the internet where we have an outlet for these kinds of things. its gotten to the stage where i almost surpress my experiences because, whats the fcukin point talking to people about it? its like im meant to be the meccah of scientific information and have picture perfect evidence of what ive seen to show to people, like that would make any difference at all?!

    went on a bit of a tangent there, but in respect to why i quoted you gremlin, many of the things ive seen did happen when i was on my own (but not all, mind you).. so ive gone through quite a bit of self evaluation.. but still come to the conclusion.. no these werent random figments of my imagination, they actually happened..

    its actually freakin hilarious that weve spent hundreds of years turning to each other sayin.. did you see that? nope.. oh well.. it was nothing.

    does it show how little we believe in our own reality, or is it more about how insecure we are in ourselves?


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  • #7
    dyer
    Closed Accounts Posts: 598 ✭✭✭dyer


    charlemont wrote: »
    What kind of a comment is that ? if you haven't a rats arse about the subject then I suggest you surf the web for an hour and come back.:)

    and to that i shall say.. touche


  • #8
    Gremlin
    Registered Users Posts: 358 ✭✭Gremlin


    dyer wrote: »
    if you guys really are looking for evidence, why not start by looking at the sky?

    Dyer, thanks for the input. I spend pretty much every clear night looking at the sky as astronomy is my primary passion. Given that I've been doing this over 30 years and to date I've seen nothing that I can't explain, why is it then that others see lots of interesting events which they are convinced are ET visitors? So I would further your statement quoted above by urging people not to just go and look at the sky, but learn about it.

    I know we had a discussion previously about astronomers and if they do/don't see these things. You kindly provided a link, which I did in fact spend a lot of time reviewing. The main difficulty I had with it was actually finding anything that could be substantiated. The vast majority were people who call themselves astronomers. What I mean is that its quite easy to call yourself something, its a different thing altogether to demonstrate a credibility in the subject area. Much of the stuff from the distant past is likely exxplained by our better understanding of optics and optical abberations.

    Dyer, I would never ridicule anyone for sharing experiences. I would be the sort of person to listen and try and help the person understand (if possible). The problem I found in doing this (and I'm not saying that your this sort of person) is that some people don't want an explanation. They feel that these experiences mark them as special and are to be treasured and don't want some little upstart science nerd bringing their beliefs crashing down. I had quite an extreme case of this a few months back where a guy in a pub got extremely annoyed (to the point where I was worried he was going to swing at me) when I tried to explain that his alien visitor was really a chinese lantern.
    dyer wrote: »
    there's such an interesting psychological factor involved in the subject.. kinda like everyones hesitant, some are very sure, some want concrete proof that they can smell, others just want a scientist to tell them everythings alright, and then well.. some are downright whack outta the ball park.

    Very well put. I find the human factor of all this almost as interesting as the subject area.

    I also think your bang on about human insecurity. We only have to look at all the whacko conspiracy theories to see that.


  • #9
    dyer
    Closed Accounts Posts: 598 ✭✭✭dyer


    Dyer, thanks for the input. I spend pretty much every clear night looking at the sky as astronomy is my primary passion. Given that I've been doing this over 30 years and to date I've seen nothing that I can't explain, why is it then that others see lots of interesting events which they are convinced are ET visitors? So I would further your statement quoted above by urging people not to just go and look at the sky, but learn about it.

    i thought about figuring that in there, but then, dont you have to start somewhere? i cannot explain why youve never seen anything you cant explain, what are the odds, they must be astronomical! but it only takes one to get lucky wouldnt you agree? stars that appeared 'weird' to one person, became a supernova to another, or a quasar or whatever, people who had enough insight to see much farther than most.. it just takes the right person at the right time with the right idea to figure alot of this stuff out.. and funnily enough, it appears to be by random chance, a thousand years might well pass before we find another einstein or newton who just clicks all these funny pieces together.
    I would be the sort of person to listen and try and help the person understand (if possible).
    my only problem here is, maybe in some cases you might be right on the money.. but what about the ones that you cant understand? .. maybe you should just listen?

    .. if you want to find ufos, your best bet is to look when everyone else is asleep.. though this isnt scientific fact, its a good rule of thumb :)


  • #10
    maccored
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,714 ✭✭✭✭maccored


    easychair wrote: »
    It's notable that UFO's have only been around since the advent of aeroplanes.

    If there really is such a thing as UFO's, they would have been around for centuries. Curious that.

    Theres a whole bunch of research linking UFOs to DMT - a drug that is naturally produced and found in mushrooms. Before UFOs, faries were the popular thing. Both were circular (ufos and fairy rings), both abducted people and there were various other simularities. Some researchers believe that a) these are not hallucinations as much as different dimensions and b) its really just our own culture viewpoint that has changed - what we once viewed as faries, we now view as UFOs.

    There is much talk of various dimensions in science these days, so its an interesting idea. aliens might not be from a different planet, but instead from a different dimension.


  • #11
    easychair
    Closed Accounts Posts: 905 ✭✭✭easychair


    I'd add that, in the age where everything is now captured in pictures or film via cell phones, it's also curious how no one has yet produced film or pics of UFO's landing on Earth before they abduct humans, or in the process of abducting humans by other humans who are not abducted.

    While we would all be foolish to dismiss the possibility, it's also evident that there is no proper evidence of UFO, and the stories are always incomplete and lacking proper evidence.

    I've often seen strange shaped flying objects in the sky, only to see after a while that it's a plane viewed from one angle, perhaps while the plane is turning, and for it to be clearly seen as a plane when it turns enough for me to view it properly.


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  • #12
    Geminian
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16 ✭Geminian


    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=87PRVP4EQAo&feature=player_embedded


  • #13
    Gremlin
    Registered Users Posts: 358 ✭✭Gremlin


    Geminian wrote: »
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=87PRVP4EQAo&feature=player_embedded

    That is not evidence, that is a collection of perfectly explainable (and in most cases explained) phenomenon and or deliberate hoaxes (e.g. the jerusalem one), not so clever music and shots of a lot of people looking into the sky. This is a fine example of why youtube videos are so completely and utterly useless. All they do is just muddy the waters and prevent informed research of UFO phenomenon. What is more annoying is that the author of the video uses a hubble space telescope shot of what was imediately identified as colliding asteroids. The author knows this and he also knows that the vast majority of people watching will just accept it without question.


  • #14
    Gremlin
    Registered Users Posts: 358 ✭✭Gremlin


    easychair wrote: »
    I've often seen strange shaped flying objects in the sky, only to see after a while that it's a plane viewed from one angle, perhaps while the plane is turning, and for it to be clearly seen as a plane when it turns enough for me to view it properly.

    Exactly. Quite often I see satellites doing odd looking stuff. For example just tonight I walked out and saw a very bright star in the north, it got steadily brighter then just vanished. Turns out after a bit of digging it was a geostationary satellite catching a glint from the Sun. As the earth turned the angle changes and the object winks out. Another morning I saw a ball like object shoot across the cloudbase. Took me a while to figure this one out. Turns out this was the suns rays departing from the point where they were parallel to the cloud base and as the suns position shifted very slightly over a couple of seconds, it made this effect on the base of the clouds. Since then I've seen it happen on another two occassions.


  • #15
    jonbravo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 635 ✭✭✭jonbravo


    Astronomy and photographic proof
    The Dogons of Mali,incredibly,knew of the star sirius centuries before human astronomers located it. other ufo witnesses have spoken of meetings with beings who came from planets as yet undiscovered-galaxies other then our milkly way. Earthly science says this is impossible.....yet, how is this possible!?
    during the nineteeth century astronomer's often saw ''meteors'' which behaved oddly. One mystery occured at the observatory at zacatecas{ Up in the Mexican Mountains}.
    jose bonilla had been investigating sunspots and was using a camera attached to the telescope to record them,glowing objects were crossing the face of the sun so he took pictures to prove this was no hallucination.
    bonilla reported in the astronomical press; and i quote....

    I was able to fix there trajectory across the solar disk....some appeared round or spherical,but one notes in the photographs that the bodys are not spherical but irregular in form.
    before crossing the solar disk these bodys threw out brilliant trains of light but in crossing the sun they seem to become opaque and dark against its brighter background.

    Bonilla was convinced the objects were not as far as the moon away but just outside the earths atmosphere all the same.
    he was the first to prove he saw a ufo by taking its photograph.
    that was in August 1883.

    Back to nowadays...
    The high level of ifo's within the ufo evidence does not consign the mystery of ufos to the relms of the solved world, even with known developed stealth aircraft it is almost certain tests were carried out,One that comes to mind is the RPV- remotely piloted vehicles{ like model aircraft} which is used to go into enemy territory.
    Britain is at the forefront of such craft and have being used over northern ireland in the past.NOT everything in the sky is meant to be there!!

    I do find it odd that over 100 years has pasted since the first ufo photograph.....and still with technology people can't see the photographic proof!? nor will i do anyone else's homework with regard this subject.

    just to add, Another time to sky watch for ufo's is after a spell of bad weather ,the frontal pressure systems responsible for this change can spring ufo active areas into life......so its worth a go were ever you live!!


  • #16
    Gremlin
    Registered Users Posts: 358 ✭✭Gremlin


    maccored wrote: »
    There is much talk of various dimensions in science these days, so its an interesting idea. aliens might not be from a different planet, but instead from a different dimension.

    ... and maybe they are not. Again alternate dimensions are just a hypothetical postulation. Even if they did exist there can be no assumption that they can in any way interact withour own reality. When you have two possibilites, i.e. 1 - UFO sightings are caused by interaction with an alternate reality or 2 - UFO sightings are nothing more than popular culture being used to explain perfectly naturally occuring phenomenon, then is it not reasonable to take the view that the one which doesn't require any science outside of our current understanding is the likely answer?


  • #17
    Gremlin
    Registered Users Posts: 358 ✭✭Gremlin


    jonbravo wrote: »
    jose bonilla

    ....photographed high flying geese.


  • #18
    jonbravo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 635 ✭✭✭jonbravo


    Gremlin wrote: »
    ....photographed high flying geese.
    one persons geese is another mans ufo.


  • #19
    Wolfe Tone
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,670 ✭✭✭✭Wolfe Tone


    The one I talk about in that thread is interesting, scroll down a bit, I can't sufficiently explain it.


    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056284240


  • #20
    maccored
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,714 ✭✭✭✭maccored


    The DMT argument is very persuasive - plus it explains how people can claim to be abducted in the middle of a city yet no-one else ever seems to witness the event.

    Graham Hancock wrote a great book on it - http://home.comcast.net/~lang.craig/DMT_PSI.htm . Check out the Coast to Coast interview as well
    Gremlin wrote: »
    ... and maybe they are not. Again alternate dimensions are just a hypothetical postulation. Even if they did exist there can be no assumption that they can in any way interact withour own reality. When you have two possibilites, i.e. 1 - UFO sightings are caused by interaction with an alternate reality or 2 - UFO sightings are nothing more than popular culture being used to explain perfectly naturally occuring phenomenon, then is it not reasonable to take the view that the one which doesn't require any science outside of our current understanding is the likely answer?


  • #21
    dyer
    Closed Accounts Posts: 598 ✭✭✭dyer


    i think in respect to the OP, abductions are a whole other kettel of fish.. first we must ascertain whether ufo's actually exist or not. even as a firm blue in the face believer of ufos, i remain on the fence with regards to abductions but i can't discount other peoples experiences just because they're not my own.

    some food for thought: i know you didnt ask for 'youtube' links and such but this documentary pertaining to animal mutilations just happens to be hosted there.

    Silent Killers
    Richard D. Hall investigates the subject of Animal Mutilation in the U.K. In various locations within the UK, there are incidents of recurring animal deaths. The injuries on the animals are totally in-explicable showing surgical precision.


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  • #22
    maccored
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,714 ✭✭✭✭maccored


    Gremlin wrote: »
    ... and maybe they are not. Again alternate dimensions are just a hypothetical postulation. Even if they did exist there can be no assumption that they can in any way interact withour own reality. When you have two possibilites, i.e. 1 - UFO sightings are caused by interaction with an alternate reality or 2 - UFO sightings are nothing more than popular culture being used to explain perfectly naturally occuring phenomenon, then is it not reasonable to take the view that the one which doesn't require any science outside of our current understanding is the likely answer?

    I have to say, Im glad science has never adopted this attitude, since if it did it would have died a death and stagnated years ago. Plus, you say 'hypothetical postulation' whereas many scientists now view alternate dimensions as decent theory. check out the second show ("Is There an Edge to the Universe?") of the new series of Through the Wormhole - theres a few of them on that talking about such things.


  • #23
    autocharge
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8 ✭autocharge


    Looks like people have being seeing strange things in the sky for a very long time http://alien-ufo-research.com/aliens_in_ancient_history/


  • #24
    murrayp4
    Registered Users Posts: 969 ✭✭✭murrayp4


    Here is Prof Michio Kaku's take on UFOs

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2pw13F7ahjY



  • #25
    Gremlin
    Registered Users Posts: 358 ✭✭Gremlin


    Thanks for all the feedback everyone. I do genuinely appreciate it, even if I don't necessarily concurr with your opinions, I am genuinely enjoying reviewing all of this.

    What I'm really trying to acheive here is stripping away the red herrings (and I'm sure most will agree there's an awful lot of it) to see what's really there which stands up to scrutiny. Honestly I am genuinely open to some of the ideas presented.

    I suppose what it really boils down to from a personal level is what burden of proof do you place on yourself before you accept something as fact. In my case the requirements are pretty rigorous. However I personally wouldn't have it any other way. In review I do think its a little unfair of me to so agressively try to strip some of this stuff apart here so I wont be doing that anymore to such an extent. I'll do that off board so to speak.

    From my own POV what I'm seeing is that really there is no 'proof' per-se. What it comes down to is a personal choice whether you accept what your presented with and are prepared to take at least a bit of a leap of faith to draw the conclusion that UFO phenomenon are real and are of ET phenomenon. Until I see something more convincing, I'm not prepared to do that just yet. This is just my opinion which I certainly think is just as valid (but not in any way more so) than everyone elses.


  • #26
    Ziycon
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,987 ✭✭✭Ziycon


    Over the years I've investigated and looked into many reports from within and around Ireland and to date I've only come across a handful of reports that where 'unexplainable', thats not to say they are out of this world or ET in origin but merely that the source/origin is unknown to myself and anyone investigating the report.

    You can't give any unexplained sighting/incident any label apart from unknown for the simple fact that you have no basis to put any source/origin to it, its like being a IT engineer and diagnosing a medical condition on a sick patient, its just ludicrous, you have no idea were to start when labeling the unknown incident/object.

    Don't get me wrong, I'd love to be able to explain all reports but its just not always going to be possible.


  • #27
    Gremlin
    Registered Users Posts: 358 ✭✭Gremlin


    Ziycon, Excellent post. Without trying to sound too patronising, I think you and your organisation provide exactly the sort of rational, non-emotional analysis that the field desparately need. Sadly a group like yours is less vocal than the hysterical mobs that are so easy to find on the net. Probably more importantly you attempt to gain nothing from it except knowledge. Sadly there are qute a few who see the dollar signs when the word UFO is mentioned. I've been looking through your website. I see a reference to Betty Meyler RIP. A lovely lady with whom I've had the pleasure of discussing with a few times. Although as you can imagine, we didn't always see eye to eye on this subject area but I always respected her motives and her deep seated beliefs.


  • #28
    Gremlin
    Registered Users Posts: 358 ✭✭Gremlin


    ....and sometimes you just gotta laugh.

    http://alien-ufo-research.com/alien_pictures/

    Look at the very last one of the page in particular 'Accidental Alien Snap Shot-Chile'. Gave me a good old fashioned giggle.


  • #29
    dyer
    Closed Accounts Posts: 598 ✭✭✭dyer


    with respect to your last post gremlin, i would whole heartedly agree, i used to be on your side of the fence, but for some peculiar reason found myself in the middle of such experiences that threw me very much, over the fence.. and while i still totally respect your stance on these matters, i can't wait around wasting my breath trying to convince you otherwise (though obviously you never asked for that :)... which is why i suggested you start looking at the sky, because there is no material evidence that exists that will convice you otherwise unless you witness it with your own eyes. we dont have any information because its all UP there (and because 'they' are way ahead of us in any sense of the word).. we dont have scientific evidence because science has failed us..and these days is very much governed by grants and ideals that will make money... and to a certain degree, because scientists are so self involved in the things we cant see, that they fob off all those things that people can see.. as if people cant accurately describe their experiences unless theyre scientists themselves? people profess science to be so perfect, but even science itself, regardless of its rigour, falls prey to the weakness in our intellect.. god knows how many times it took a few hundred years for a mathematical proof or such to ring true in our little heads.. no matter how 'wrong' the most prestigious minds alive would have professed or made us believe otherwise.

    there is so much knowledge available to people these days if anyone has the slightest bit of sense they can make good use of it. without passion, those things are meaningless.. and to to antother extent, there are people far more knowledgeable about things that could never be taught in any school. for me .. there's such irony in the fact that we have an organisation like SETI thats spends millions upon millions scanning the universe for life when its right here in our face.. nevermind the fact that the they tune their instruments in such an infantile way (but i do commend them for trying) .. but what a waste of potential..

    edit ( i was so drunk when i wrote this :rolleyes: )


  • #30
    easychair
    Closed Accounts Posts: 905 ✭✭✭easychair


    jonbravo wrote: »
    Astronomy and photographic proof
    The Dogons of Mali,incredibly,knew of the star sirius centuries before human astronomers located it. other ufo witnesses have spoken of meetings with beings who came from planets as yet undiscovered-galaxies other then our milkly way. Earthly science says this is impossible.....yet, how is this possible!?
    during the nineteeth century astronomer's often saw ''meteors'' which behaved oddly. One mystery occured at the observatory at zacatecas{ Up in the Mexican Mountains}.
    jose bonilla had been investigating sunspots and was using a camera attached to the telescope to record them,glowing objects were crossing the face of the sun so he took pictures to prove this was no hallucination.
    bonilla reported in the astronomical press; and i quote....

    I was able to fix there trajectory across the solar disk....some appeared round or spherical,but one notes in the photographs that the bodys are not spherical but irregular in form.
    before crossing the solar disk these bodys threw out brilliant trains of light but in crossing the sun they seem to become opaque and dark against its brighter background.

    Bonilla was convinced the objects were not as far as the moon away but just outside the earths atmosphere all the same.
    he was the first to prove he saw a ufo by taking its photograph.
    that was in August 1883.

    Back to nowadays...
    The high level of ifo's within the ufo evidence does not consign the mystery of ufos to the relms of the solved world, even with known developed stealth aircraft it is almost certain tests were carried out,One that comes to mind is the RPV- remotely piloted vehicles{ like model aircraft} which is used to go into enemy territory.
    Britain is at the forefront of such craft and have being used over northern ireland in the past.NOT everything in the sky is meant to be there!!

    I do find it odd that over 100 years has pasted since the first ufo photograph.....and still with technology people can't see the photographic proof!? nor will i do anyone else's homework with regard this subject.

    just to add, Another time to sky watch for ufo's is after a spell of bad weather ,the frontal pressure systems responsible for this change can spring ufo active areas into life......so its worth a go were ever you live!!

    Of course, there are lots of things which remain unexplained. But thats not to say the only possible explanation is UFO's. I find it hard to take "after a spell of bad weather ,the frontal pressure systems responsible for this change can spring ufo active areas into life.." seriously, and can't imagine there are lots of UFO lying dormant somewhere, just waiting for a spell of bad weather before springing into life.


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  • #31
    Gremlin
    Registered Users Posts: 358 ✭✭Gremlin


    Jonbravo's post highlights something which I think is crucial in all of this. If you look at this well written piece you might be forgiven for becoming a beleiver. However when taken in isolation, each of the points , i.e. the dogons, bonilla's sighting etc, don't stand up to scrutiny.

    With due respect to jonbravo, the line near the end "nor will i do anyone else's homework with regard this subject." is interesting. Quite often its science and the skeptics which are accused of being closed minded and blinkered. In fact if you are willing to spend some time looking at the truth of the mystery its not that hard to find that there is no mystery at all. I find that 'some' beleivers are just not prepared to do this basic research. They will just accept the mysterious explanation. So I would argue that in fact its often the beleivers who need to do their homework.

    The guy who writes the captions in the 'alien pictures' link posted above is also interesting. If you read the captions its clear that this guy wholeheartedly believes that these are all alien pictures. One line in particular stood out. About half way down 'Slightly Mangled Alien Picture on Bed-1954' Now whatever you say about these it is perfectly reasonable to conclude that this may well be a picture of a poor sod who met his/her demise in a pretty nasty way (maybe burned). However the caption reads. 'This is a pretty good picture of an alien lying on what appears to be a hospital bed.'. The interesting bit is that the author is prepared to consider that the device the remains lie on may or may not be a hospital bed, but he/she is not prepared to consider that their may be another explanation for what lies on it.


  • #32
    Gremlin
    Registered Users Posts: 358 ✭✭Gremlin


    dyer wrote: »
    edit ( i was so drunk when i wrote this :rolleyes: )

    LOL. Hope the head wasn't too bad this morning.

    In fairness drunk or not you raise some good points.

    I will just add (again) that I have spent as much time looking at the sky as anybody (and an awful lot more time than most people). Lots of times I have seen stuff which on the face of it seems strange. However because of my line of research I'm lucky enough to have tools and techniques to immediately investigate and arrive at a perfectly reasonable explanation. A lot of people don't have these assets and therefore have no choice but stop there and put it down to alien UFOs.

    I know literally hundreds of other astronomers who will tell you exactly the same story, I could probably find you thousands of others too Surely if alien visitation is as frequent and easy to see as some would have us beleive, then surely it would be a case that the only discussion we would be having is not 'if' they are here but 'why' and 'how'. The usual counter to this argument is that scientists are too afraid of ridicule to come forward. Well frankly, for the most part thats nonsense. Often scientists will come across something they don't understand. The vast majority of those will seek out somebody with a better understanding of the particular area related to their experience and ask for the benefit of their opinion. I've seen this happen (and done it) lots of times.


  • #33
    jonbravo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 635 ✭✭✭jonbravo


    Gremlin wrote: »
    Jonbravo's post highlights something which I think is crucial in all of this. If you look at this well written piece you might be forgiven for becoming a beleiver. However when taken in isolation, each of the points , i.e. the dogons, bonilla's sighting etc, don't stand up to scrutiny.

    With due respect to jonbravo, the line near the end "nor will i do anyone else's homework with regard this subject." is interesting. Quite often its science and the skeptics which are accused of being closed minded and blinkered. In fact if you are willing to spend some time looking at the truth of the mystery its not that hard to find that there is no mystery at all. I find that 'some' beleivers are just not prepared to do this basic research. They will just accept the mysterious explanation. So I would argue that in fact its often the beleivers who need to do their homework.
    Alot of the so called research i do has notting to do with funny lights in the sky i might add..{ using ''funny lights'' because some have problems with the term ''ufo'' in this thread. }, you might have noticed it from the thread in the para forum!? I like other areas of the subject more.
    The reason i posted was to prove that not everything you read on the internet is correct or wrong....and that from this on example, you can see where this subject has bein for over 100 years:eek:... and can be turned on its head by other's..for reasons unknown to me, their so called research to prove against the possible.
    It also brings up the question of ''Who do you start believing, if you can't believe other people''.
    the ufo phenomenon is far more then the term ''ufo'' allows.
    I'm seeing lots of questions asked but very little answered!?


  • #34
    maccored
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,714 ✭✭✭✭maccored


    Gremlin wrote: »
    With due respect to jonbravo, the line near the end "nor will i do anyone else's homework with regard this subject." is interesting.

    i believe he has every right to say that. The act of delving into a subject and proactively looking for information is more important than someone saying they dont believe something and expecting others to supply the reasons of why they should - so therefore its pretty important no-one should "do anyone else's homework with regard" to answering questions on ufology or the paranormal. Theres no proof for either so its all very subjective.


  • #35
    Gremlin
    Registered Users Posts: 358 ✭✭Gremlin


    maccored wrote: »
    i believe he has every right to say that. The act of delving into a subject and proactively looking for information is more important than someone saying they dont believe something and expecting others to supply the reasons of why they should - so therefore its pretty important no-one should "do anyone else's homework with regard" to answering questions on ufology or the paranormal. Theres no proof for either so its all very subjective.

    I agree. Jonbravo is quite right . However, I think you are quoting that line out of context a little. If you read what follows it, I am suggesting (rightly or wrongly) that often its diehard beleivers that don't do the homework. For example, look at some of the links posted throughout this thread, and some of the incidents which are highlighted. It takes 5 minutes of googling to find a perfectly rational explanation for the vast majority of them, however it is clear that those who post this material have not even done the most basic research before concluding that these are de-facto UFO (and I use than in its most general way) events.

    You're also quite right in saying that like paranormal experiences, there is no proof for alien visitation, people choose to believe, again that is everyone's right.

    Which brings me to another point. I may be misreading your post (and please forgive me if I am) but the way I'm reading it is like, the original premice of posting this thread was "Hi I don't beleive in UFO's, go and prove to me I'm wrong because I couldn't be bothered.". What I am really saying is (and I concede I wasn't clear enough). "I've looked at this in some depth (and I have for many years), I can't see anything to convince me there is anything to this phenomenon, if i've missed something then please enlighten me." I think thats a perfectly reasonable position to hold.


  • #36
    Gremlin
    Registered Users Posts: 358 ✭✭Gremlin


    jonbravo wrote: »
    the thread in the para forum!?

    I'm smiling to myself because I was really stoopid to get into that thread a while back. Never again!
    jonbravo wrote: »
    It also brings up the question of ''Who do you start believing, if you can't believe other people''.

    Thats a very interesting question. Personally I would normally take the view that when I'm told something I believe that the person is being honest and at least believes this themselves. The problem is what do you do when a sizeable number of people choose to categorically hoax and lie about material. The internet in particular makes this easy. The advent of easy to use and cheap video editing software makes it easier still, throw youtube on top of all of that and its not hard to see the size of the problem.

    I'm not suggesting its ALL a big hoax, just the hoax material is growing all the time. The sad thing is the hoaxers may well be shooting themselves in the foot by 'crying wolf'. It would be sad if geniune evidence was overlooked by the scientific community because of the actions of some people who want to beleive so much that they are prepared to make stuff up to 'prove' they are right.

    I would also add that hoaxing and cheating is far from unique to some UFO believers, I've come across many times, some 'scientists' who are no better.


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  • #37
    jonbravo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 635 ✭✭✭jonbravo


    I think this brings us to George Adamski!?
    his credibilily within the sudject has always being something of question... but for me one thing stands out!

    In 1954... stephen darbishire { a teenager at the time } took 2 photographs of a close up object which had the same features of a photograph taken by adamski in california in december 1952, darbishire's photograph was taken on the 4th of feb,england.
    he also in 1991 confirmed that he stands by his story and i'll also add that he wasn't alone at the time of the event.
    measurements by engineers later said the two were identical and stephen darbishire never heard of adamski until after his picture was taken.

    I'm sure as its going to rain today that the skeptics will use adamski and his credibilily as proof of something other then what i've said. i think this example is a case of who can we believe, if we can't believe other people!? or is it a question of just believe the material!?


  • #38
    dyer
    Closed Accounts Posts: 598 ✭✭✭dyer


    unfortunately the internet does make it easier for so much crap to spread, and so much so that it damages the credibility of the subject.. i think the best you can do is use your rationale to avoid that and pay heed to the efforts certain individuals are making to change all of that.

    someone sent me a link to a lecture recently given by a police offer in the uk on the subject of ufos.. he set up a site for officers to report their sightings which can be found here.

    it's only through the hard work of people like Gary Heseltine that the world might start taking this whole thing seriously.


  • #39
    murrayp4
    Registered Users Posts: 969 ✭✭✭murrayp4


    .....everyone knows that inside UFOs are rich assholes from the future on their time travelling holidays... :D


  • #40
    fontanalis
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,619 ✭✭✭fontanalis


    Was a "earth bound" explanation ever found for the belgian flying triangle?


  • #41
    murrayp4
    Registered Users Posts: 969 ✭✭✭murrayp4


    fontanalis wrote: »
    Was a "earth bound" explanation ever found for the belgian flying triangle?

    The Belgian triangle cases are some of the most interesting UFO sightings in recent years. There is a chapter in Leslie Kean's book written by Major General Wilifred De Brouwer concerning his investigation into the events. He concluded that the objects seen were not American military aircraft and exhibited characteristics that were not produced by any known technology.


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  • #42
    fontanalis
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,619 ✭✭✭fontanalis


    murrayp4 wrote: »
    The Belgian triangle cases are some of the most interesting UFO sightings in recent years. There is a chapter in Leslie Kean's book written by Major General Wilifred De Brouwer concerning his investigation into the events. He concluded that the objects seen were not American military aircraft and exhibited characteristics that were not produced by any known technology.

    That is a fascinating case and it seems unlikely anyone would test their aircraft over heavily populated areas.


  • #43
    gbee
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,388 ✭✭✭gbee


    easychair wrote: »
    If there really is such a thing as UFO's, they would have been around for centuries. Curious that.

    Indeed, what we call UFO are referred to in many historic accounts, some notably the Roman Generals who always looked for the signs in the sky before launching into battle.

    A lot of references to Gods can be interpreted today as reference to UFO. The Romans were always victorious under the cross formation that is referenced many times. Some of their defeats occurred in the absence of such signs.

    Obvious space ships and astronauts are drawn on cave paintings many thousands of years old.

    The phenomenon was rekindled during the great war years and the RAF even had a FOO Fighter squadron to hunt and intercept what they believed were German secret weapons.

    References to the unknown has been around as long as mankind. Today we can retrospectively speculate that these are known cosmic events or what we call UFOs, so IMO they are thousands of years old and my have been directly related to your evolution.


  • #44
    kylith
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,736 ✭✭✭✭kylith


    gbee wrote: »
    A lot of references to Gods can be interpreted today as reference to UFO. The Romans were always victorious under the cross formation that is referenced many times. Some of their defeats occurred in the absence of such signs.

    Obvious space ships and astronauts are drawn on cave paintings many thousands of years old.
    Got any links to these?


  • #45
    jonbravo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 635 ✭✭✭jonbravo


    kylith wrote: »
    Got any links to these?
    why is a link a need!?


  • #46
    kylith
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,736 ✭✭✭✭kylith


    jonbravo wrote: »
    why is a link a need!?
    Because I want to read about them?


  • #47
    dyer
    Closed Accounts Posts: 598 ✭✭✭dyer


    what about the phoenix lights?

    a ship so big that blocked out the stars and the military still insist it was a trainining routine (to drop flares over a populated city) .. what utter bull****!

    these craft travel so fast if you stuck a human being in them, we might as well be spam in a can cause there wouldnt be very much left of ya after it.


  • #48
    easychair
    Closed Accounts Posts: 905 ✭✭✭easychair


    dyer wrote: »
    what about the phoenix lights?

    a ship so big that blocked out the stars and the military still insist it was a trainining routine (to drop flares over a populated city) .. what utter bull****!

    these craft travel so fast if you stuck a human being in them, we might as well be spam in a can cause there wouldnt be very much left of ya after it.

    If you are saying that the only possible explanation for your "phoenix lights" must be that they are caused by aliens, then why not make that argument and give us some references, and we can all look and debate the issue here.


  • #49
    maninasia
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,622 ✭✭✭maninasia


    jonbravo wrote: »
    Back to nowadays...
    The high level of ifo's within the ufo evidence does not consign the mystery of ufos to the relms of the solved world, even with known developed stealth aircraft it is almost certain tests were carried out,One that comes to mind is the RPV- remotely piloted vehicles{ like model aircraft} which is used to go into enemy territory.
    Britain is at the forefront of such craft and have being used over northern ireland in the past.NOT everything in the sky is meant to be there!!

    I do find it odd that over 100 years has pasted since the first ufo photograph.....and still with technology people can't see the photographic proof!? nor will i do anyone else's homework with regard this subject.

    just to add, Another time to sky watch for ufo's is after a spell of bad weather ,the frontal pressure systems responsible for this change can spring ufo active areas into life......so its worth a go were ever you live!!


    I agree it's odd there is not more compelling evidence if UFOs are really spacecraft as they made out. Many UFOs are simply satellites, regular planes, chinese lanterns and stealth aircraft. But let's have some caveats

    1. There are many photos of classic disk shaped UFOs in existence (it's not true to say there are no photos even if some could be fraudulent)
    http://www.ufoevidence.org/photographs/decade/1960s.htm
    2. Photos are just one form of evidence and can also be manipulated
    3. Advanced intelligences with advanced sensory machines could easily anticipate and react to our cameras, either by keeping out of sight, moving away quickly or using a reactive camoflauge. When taking a photo we could be detected in many ways (this might sound far out but not for advanced intelligence)
    a) Our brainwaves and physical presence and movement
    b) The camera electronic equipment

    4. The inherent properties of UFOs may make them difficult to photograph..such as
    a) rarity
    b) speed of movement
    c) altitude
    d) height
    e) possibly the technology/natural phenomenon behind them makes them blurry as a side-effect i.e. glowing/plasma/diffuse light
    5. Most cameras and most people are not capable of taking good pictures of far away objects with a sky for background. You can see this effect on innumerable dodgy youtube videos as the camera pans in and out struggling to auto-focus.

    However there have been reports of close up sightings , it is surprising that nobody has been able to get a close up shot of these UFOs/craft. In that sense, if we believe at least some of the witnesses we must surmise that they are manipulating us somehow. Indeed there have been many reports of strange behaviour of witnesses of UFO sightings. Now that might be an accidental side effect, a deliberately caused phenomenon or could simply be human reactions to the unknown.

    http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread644629/pg1


  • #50
    maninasia
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,622 ✭✭✭maninasia


    murrayp4 wrote: »
    .....everyone knows that inside UFOs are rich assholes from the future on their time travelling holidays... :D

    You never know, it's definitely an option on the list :) .
    Personally I think it is much more likely there is nothing in UFOs, they are intelligent machines/organisms


  • #51
    jonbravo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 635 ✭✭✭jonbravo


    maninasia wrote: »
    I agree it's odd there is not more compelling evidence if UFOs are really spacecraft as they made out. Many UFOs are simply satellites, regular planes, chinese lanterns and stealth aircraft.

    However there have been reports of close up sightings , it is surprising that nobody has been able to get a close up shot of these UFOs/craft. In that sense, if we believe at least some of the witnesses we must surmise that they are manipulating us somehow. Indeed there have been many reports of strange behaviour of witnesses of UFO sightings. Now that might be an accidental side effect, a deliberately caused phenomenon or could simply be human reactions to the unknown.

    Great post, it beings up questions that i find interesting.
    In order to find more compelling evidence in the field of ufos{photos}, Ufology has to break around from Hollywoods view that ET visits this earth in spacecraft.The simple answer is that might not the case, just like ''real'' science,ufology can be surpiring in that respect and change.

    Strange behaviour is more common then you might think..and i don't believe strange behaviour of witnesses is an accidental side effect at present,more of a deliberately caused phenomenon in many ways.
    When you look in any newspaper on any given day you might find evidence of ET interaction with regard strange behaviour of man.
    It is also suggested that many of the female abductees for example are reliving an incident from childhood{keepin the incident hidden from this thread. PM}.but you'll find information below.
    One of the leading experts in abductees was professor john mack http://www.johnemackinstitute.org/.
    The authorities of Harvard launched an inquiry into his conduct in 1995 on the back of some controversail views.


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