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prime Vitali Klitschko VS prime George Foreman ('72-'74)

  • 22-02-2012 6:31pm
    #1
    RiseToTheTop
    Closed Accounts Posts: 956 ✭✭✭


    Who takes this IYO. I reckon George wins by knockout around the 7th round.

    (BTW, I ranked George in his "prime" in regards to his career. He was a different boxer after his loss to Ali.)

    prime Vitali VS prime Big George, who wins? 13 votes

    Vitali
    0% 0 votes
    Foreman
    100% 13 votes


«1

Comments

  • #2
    sxt
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,756 ✭✭✭sxt


    Why do you feel Foreman would ko Vitali in the 7th?

    Do you think Vitali's size , power, technique and chin doesn't amount to much against a much smaller, slower man, with a cruder technique from the 70's ?


    What do you think would be the result between David Haye and George Foreman?


  • #3
    cowzerp
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,549 ✭✭✭✭cowzerp


    sxt wrote: »

    What do you think would be the result between David Haye and George Foreman?

    1st round ko for George v Haye, no doubt

    Rush Boxing club and Rush Martial Arts head coach.



  • #4
    walshb
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 56,619 ✭✭✭✭walshb


    Prime Foreman was probably the most physically strong HW champ ever. Powerful, heavy handed, very good chin and a killer. Now, prime Klit was big, strong, clever and very tough.

    Great match. If George is patient and not over eager, then he wins this on points. If he is gung ho and non stop looking for the KO, he could lose.

    Here's the thing: As heavy handed as he was, George's delivery speed wasn't what is needed to KO Klit with one shot. George had cumulative power

    Klit's chin is good enough to take the shots I feel. But, George threw a lot of leather, and was very aggressive. Can Klit land enough, and heavy enough to deter and beat George? I don't think he can, and loses on points most times.

    Wlad gets blasted within 3 rds. If a Brewster and Sanders can do him, then Foreman will murder him.


  • #5
    tryingmybestt
    Closed Accounts Posts: 759 ✭✭✭tryingmybestt


    Vitalis chin has never been tested too much besides a past peak lewis

    foreman has great 1 punch ko power, one of the best punchers of all time

    i see foreman getting an early ko or winning on points

    foreman had a great chin and i'd even pick the older version of foreman from the 90's to beat the klitschko's

    his cross arm defence would be useful and he would walk them down, take their shots and land his bombs to ko them

    vlad would **** his pants and die of fear before the first bell


  • #6
    Littlehorny
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,351 ✭✭✭Littlehorny


    As Ali showed, speed of foot, speed of hand and good defence were the only way to beat Foreman. Ali let Foreman beat himself and Klitschko does not possess these tools. Foreman all the way for me !


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  • #7
    RXMPS
    Site Banned Posts: 76 ✭✭RXMPS


    Yeah I was thinking something along those lines Walshb. Vitali has that extra bit of Boxing ability on the outside to make it very hard for Foreman, yet Vitali was hittable, Lewis had no problems, either did Sanders or Chris Byrd getting to his chin.


    It's a tough one as Foreman got outboxed by lesser boxers in his career.So it could go either way.

    Vitali would lose I think, because when Vitali gets tagged he just leans back and away and refuses to engage.Is Foreman good enough and fast enough to tag him, I don't know.Lewis was a much better boxer than Foreman, but not as good a chin.

    I would fancy an 86 Tyson to give Vitali an even tougher match, he had the skills, the speed and the power to crack Vitali's chin.

    If anyone in history could get inside Vitali's jab and reach, its an 86 Tyson.He was designed to get inside tall men, Vitali never faced a guy like him.


  • #8
    walshb
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 56,619 ✭✭✭✭walshb


    Completely with you ref Tyson. Of all the champs, it is a 1986 Tyson that for me is Vit's kryptonite.

    Other thing to consider here is George's excellent talent at cutting off the ring. Vitali will be forced to engage quite a lot, either that, or hold and spoil and try to stop George attacking. I do not see Vit landing clea enough and heavy enough to stop Georges advances. George gets to Vit easier than he gets to Ali. And, he got to Ali a hell of a lot.

    Also, let us look at a prime Klit vs a faded Lewis. Klit was fairly tired after 6 rds here, vs. a Lewis who landed, but not as much as I see Foreman landing. And, Foreman will be a lot more aggressive and pushing the pace more than Lewis was. It's swinging to Foreman more and more for me the more I analyse it.


  • #9
    sxt
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,756 ✭✭✭sxt


    Littlehorny wrote: »
    As Ali showed, speed of foot, speed of hand and good defence were the only way to beat Foreman. Ali let Foreman beat himself and Klitschko does not possess these tools. Foreman all the way for me !

    Ali had zero footwork speed , and very little defense especially in the closing rounds against Foreman , Ali stood completely staitionary for the second half of the fight , and allowed foreman to let loose with all of his big punches. He banked on his overall stamina to prevail in the end and it did, with an epic finish!


  • #10
    walshb
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 56,619 ✭✭✭✭walshb


    sxt wrote: »
    A past it Ali had zero footwork speed , and very little defense especially in the closing rounds against Foreman , Ali stood completely staitionary for the second half of the figtt , and allowed foreman to let loose with all of his punches. He banked on his overall stamina to prevail in the end and it did, with an epic finish!

    And as I said, Formeam was amazing at stalking and cutting the ring off. Only a peak Clay/Ali (60s version) would be able to get physically away from a prime Foreman.


  • #11
    Littlehorny
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,351 ✭✭✭Littlehorny


    sxt wrote: »
    Ali had zero footwork speed , and very little defense especially in the closing rounds against Foreman , Ali stood completely staitionary for the second half of the fight , and allowed foreman to let loose with all of his big punches. He banked on his overall stamina to prevail in the end and it did, with an epic finish!

    Because of the stiffiling heat, Ali did very little moving around but he did have a good defence that night. Foreman hit him with very few clean head shots and his pounding body shots were blocked by Alis arms mostly and if you watch the fight again you will see the power was weakening in Foremans punches by round 6 because he was punched out by Alis "rope a dope".


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  • #12
    sxt
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,756 ✭✭✭sxt


    walshb wrote: »
    Prime Foreman was probably the most physically strong HW champ ever. Powerful, heavy handed, very good chin and a killer. Now, prime Klit was big, strong, clever and very tough.

    Great match. If George is patient and not over eager, then he wins this on points. If he is gung ho and non stop looking for the KO, he could lose.

    Here's the thing: As heavy handed as he was, George's delivery speed wasn't what is needed to KO Klit with one shot. George had cumulative power

    Klit's chin is good enough to take the shots I feel. But, George threw a lot of leather, and was very aggressive. Can Klit land enough, and heavy enough to deter and beat George? I don't think he can, and loses on points most times.

    Wlad gets blasted within 3 rds. If a Brewster and Sanders can do him, then Foreman will murder him.

    Foreman in his prime . Couldn't knock out a slow, dead on his feet, past it Ali .Ali let himself be a punching bag for a prime foreman , in order to out stamina him .Theywere his exact tactics! .Foreman swung widely like a bar fighter and missed with alot of his shots. Do you think Vitali would waste shots, or would not be clinical with his shots?

    and you dont think a more athletic , stronger , fitter , faster,30 ilbs heaver!, 4 inches taller, technically better boxer with and a better chin?, would not have the tactics to beat a slug it out fighter from the 70's :confused:


  • #13
    walshb
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 56,619 ✭✭✭✭walshb


    sxt wrote: »
    and you dont think a more athletic , stronger , fitter , 30 ilbs heaver, technically better boxer with and a better chin?, couldn't beat a slug it out fighter from the 70's :confused:

    Are these comparisons to George or Ali?

    Because, I strongly debate more athletic, stronger, and fitter, and better chin, and even technical.

    How is Vit more athletic? Could he perform a floor routine better, the triple jump, pole vault? It is boxing, and sorry, but I have seen nothing from Klit to be able to come to this conclusion. Not saying Foreman is more athletic, but how can you say Vitali is with such confidence?

    Vit was out on his feet after 6 rds vs. a faded Lewis. Foreman brings a whole lot more pace, pressure and volume than that Lewis.

    Stamina? Is this based off ONE fight in Zaire where temps were very high and George power punched non stop for 8 rds?


  • #14
    sxt
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,756 ✭✭✭sxt


    walshb wrote: »
    Are these comparisons to George or Ali?

    Because, I strongly debate more athletic, stronger, and fitter, and better chin, and even technical.

    How is Vit more athletic? Could he perform a floor routine better, the triple jump, pole vault? It is boxing, and sorry, but I have seen nothing from Klit to be able to come to this conclusion. Not saying Freman is more athletic, but how can you say Vitali is with such confidence?

    Vit was out on his feet after 6 rds vs. a faded Lewis. Foreman brings a whole lot more pace, pressure and volume than that Lewis.

    Stamina? Is this based off ONE fight in Zaire where temps were very high and George power punched non stop for 8 rds?


    Vitali is losing litres of blood and is fighting blind in one eye against Lewis , who is much more clinical and just as powerful puncher as a small smaller Foreman?




    How was Vitali s a better athelte than Foreman? he was streets ahead of Foreman as an athelte in every department. Foreman was never considered athlethic , even in his era .

    Every advantage is Vitali's .

    Foreman is not going to be able to slug it out with some one 40 years into the future with light years better boxing technique ( learnt from the greats) , 4 inches taller , 30ilbs of Muscle heavier , faster , stronger ,much longer reach, better stamina , and a very proven chin! Not only all these atttributes , he is a champion with a champion , never say dies spirit like all the greats!


  • #15
    walshb
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 56,619 ✭✭✭✭walshb


    sxt wrote: »
    Vitali is losing litres of blood and is fighting blind in one eye against Lewis , who is much more clinical and just as powerful puncher as a small smaller Foreman?




    How was Vitali s a better athelte than Foreman? he was streets ahead of Foreman as an athelte in every department. Foreman was never considered athlethic , even in his era .

    Every advantage is Vitali's .

    Foreman is not going to be able to slug it out with some with light years better boxing technique , 4 inches taller , 30ilbs heavier , faster , stronger ,much longer reach, ring leadsership , better stamina , and a proven chin!

    You simply saying Vitali was more athletic does not make it so. I just cannot find any evidence to back it up.

    Like: If I said that PBF was more an athletic boxer than Alexis Arguello, yes, that seems accurate and true from looking at their skills and traits inside the ring.

    If I said Clay/Ali was more athletic than Jess Willard, I can back it up with video footage that is clear.

    RJJ more athletic than Steve Collins is another clear example.

    Please, show me inside a ring where Vit is more athletic? Vit's feet aren't great, speed is quite average, coordination is no better or worse than Foreman. Balance is no better or worse. His punch variation is IMO not as good as Foreman's.

    So, list these departments you speak of and we can discuss. Just saying it is pretty vague and far from convincing.

    Balance, speed, feet, coordination, fluidity, on the front foot, on the back foot etc. These are area we could discuss, no?

    And, again, how is Vit's stamina better? You cannot claim this simply because after 8 rds of power punching in Zaire, Foreman gor dropped and stopped vs. Ali, who had been hitting him flush and clean consistently.

    I assume the claim is based off this one fight in Zaire?

    Ok, then how about Vit out on his feet after 6 rds against a faded Lewis?


  • #16
    cowzerp
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,549 ✭✭✭✭cowzerp


    walshb wrote: »
    Ok, then how about Vit out on his feet after 6 rds against a faded Lewis?

    he wasn't though! Lewis was

    Rush Boxing club and Rush Martial Arts head coach.



  • #17
    RiseToTheTop
    Closed Accounts Posts: 956 ✭✭✭RiseToTheTop


    @sxt: Vitali was lising litres of blood? WTH, the body only has 5 litres of body.

    Regards Haye VS Foreman, I can only see Foreman winning. Haye's only chance would be landing flush on Foreman's chin and seeing if Foreman goes wobbly. But I think Foreman would have him out of the ring before that.


  • #18
    sxt
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,756 ✭✭✭sxt


    walshb wrote: »
    You simply saying Vitali was more athletic does not make it so. I just cannot find any evidence to back it up.

    Like: If I said that PBF was more an athletic boxer than Alexis Arguello, yes, that seems accurate and true from looking at their skills and traits inside the ring.

    If I said Clay/Ali was more athletic than Jess Willard, I can back it up with video footage that is clear.

    RJJ more athletic than Steve Collins is another clear example.

    Please, show me inside a ring where Vit is more athletic? Vit's feet aren't great, speed is quite average, coordination is no better or worse than Foreman. Balance is no better or worse. His punch variation is IMO not as good as Foreman's.

    So, list these departments you speak of and we can discuss. Just saying it is pretty vague and far from convincing.

    Balance, speed, feet, coordination, fluidity, on the front foot, on the back foot etc. These are area we could discuss, no?

    And, again, how is Vit's stamina better? You cannot claim this simply because after 8 rds of power punching in Zaire, Foreman gor dropped and stopped vs. Ali, who had been hitting him flush and clean consistently.

    I assume the claim is based off this one fight in Zaire?

    Ok, then how about Vit out on his feet after 6 rds against a faded Lewis?

    Vitali was taking alot of perfect brutal shots from Lewis , that would have knocked out most men!, Vitali could not see them punches too well as he had a seriously bad eye wound! , causing his eye to be badly swollen and blood streaming into his left eye... He was a sitting duck for punishment and he took it!


  • #19
    walshb
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 56,619 ✭✭✭✭walshb


    cowzerp wrote: »
    he wasn't though! Lewis was

    Well, some dispute that and say Vit was. I say BOTH were. Vit was far from fresh, as only expected. The video to me shows BOTH men pretty tired, and close to exhaustion.

    My point is that I would like the poster to show me how Vit was somehow fitter than George? He has not done this.

    BTW, who do you think wins? I know both men are favourties of yours.

    I see George winning most times, but not easily.


  • #20
    walshb
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 56,619 ✭✭✭✭walshb


    sxt wrote: »
    Vitali was taking alot of perfect brutal shots from Lewis , that would have knocked out most men!, Vitali could not see them punches too well as he had a seriously bad eye wound! , causing his eye to be badly swollen and blood streaming into his left eye... He was a sitting duck for punishment and he took it!

    Ok, but that answers nothing. I never disputed that he was not tough, could not take a shot etc.

    I want to know why Vitali is somehow fitter than George?


  • #21
    sxt
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,756 ✭✭✭sxt


    walshb wrote: »
    Well, some dispute that and say Vit was. I say BOTH were. Vit was far from fresh, as only expected. The video to me shows BOTH men pretty tired, and close to exhaustion.

    My point is that I would like the poster to show me how Vit was somehow fitter than George? He has not done this.

    .

    Foreman in his prime couldn't last the pace against a past it fighter who just stood there , not bothering to move and make it difficult , just stood still and let himself be used as a human punching bag...

    Foreman was used to knocking people oput in 1 or 2 rounds etc


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  • #22
    walshb
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 56,619 ✭✭✭✭walshb


    sxt wrote: »
    He couldn't last the pace against a fighter who just stood there , not bothering to move and make it difficult...

    What fight were you watching? Ali speared George throughout that fight. Foreman threw dozens and dozens of power shots in that fight.

    Ali just stood there?:confused: BTW, Ali was pretty tired too.

    So, you are basing it on this ONE single fight then?


  • #23
    runboyrun
    Closed Accounts Posts: 84 ✭✭runboyrun


    sxt wrote: »
    ,much longer reach, ![/B]



    you're blinded with your misguided love for vitali

    foreman had a longer reach than vitali

    ypur loosely making wild statements without any back up


  • #24
    sxt
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,756 ✭✭✭sxt


    runboyrun wrote: »
    you're blinded with your misguided love for vitali

    foreman had a longer reach than vitali

    ypur loosely making wild statements without any back up

    No, your blinded with your misguided hate of Vitali.

    Vitali is significantly taller than foreman and has a much longer reach as a consequence!


  • #25
    walshb
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 56,619 ✭✭✭✭walshb


    sxt wrote: »
    Foreman in his prime couldn't last the pace against a past it fighter who just stood there , not bothering to move and make it difficult , just stood still and let himself be used as a human punching bag...

    Foreman was used to knocking people oput in 1 or 2 rounds etc

    Yes, he was used to KOing in a few rds. But, he also could go ten rds, as his fast paced and tough fight with Peralta showed. That was a very gruelling contest that George went hell for leather in and won.

    George's issue in the 70s was his pacing/tactics/hell for leather approach. And, I clearly said that if he went gung ho for Klit, he could lose. But, you claiming flat out that Vit is fitter needs evidence, analysing and debate. It is not at all clear that EITHER man is fitter.


  • #26
    runboyrun
    Closed Accounts Posts: 84 ✭✭runboyrun


    sxt wrote: »
    No, your blinded with your misguided hate of Vitali.

    Vitali is significantly taller than foreman and has a much longer reach as a consequence!




    vitali has a REACH of 79

    Foreman has a REACH of 82

    check boxrec you clown

    p.s. reach = arm length and shoulder width.....nothing to do with height !!!!


  • #27
    sxt
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,756 ✭✭✭sxt


    walshb wrote: »
    Yes, he was used to KOing in a few rds. But, he also could go ten rds, as his fast paced and tough fight with Peralta showed. That was a very gruelling contest that George went hell for leather in and won.

    George's issue in the 70s was his pacing/tactics/hell for leather approach.

    Yes, and those tactics would not work against a a modern boxer with the size , and technical advantage of a Vitali klitscko (these are boxing era's that have studied the greats and have improved in every way in preparation and technique)

    The 70's approach to fighting would be at a major disadvantage to today...


  • #28
    cowzerp
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,549 ✭✭✭✭cowzerp


    walshb wrote: »
    Well, some dispute that and say Vit was. I say BOTH were. Vit was far from fresh, as only expected. The video to me shows BOTH men pretty tired, and close to exhaustion.

    My point is that I would like the poster to show me how Vit was somehow fitter than George? He has not done this.

    BTW, who do you think wins? I know both men are favourties of yours.

    I see George winning most times, but not easily.

    Seriously tough to call, inside fight George wins, long range Vitali wins, the thing is all fights start at long range and Vitali is a master at keeping fighters there, George in part 1 of his career was not a great long range fighter
    runboyrun wrote: »
    vitali has a REACH of 79

    Foreman has a REACH of 82

    p.s. reach = arm length and shoulder width.....nothing to do with height !!!!

    The height affects it as the taller mans arms are instantly closer to shorter mans head and opposite applies too.

    Either way, it's how it's used and George at peak did not use his reach to much

    Rush Boxing club and Rush Martial Arts head coach.



  • #29
    RiseToTheTop
    Closed Accounts Posts: 956 ✭✭✭RiseToTheTop


    sxt, you are probably looking at the fight with Vitali being 6'8 to 6'8.5 tall. Vitali is not that height. Wladimir Klitschkos said on BBC breakfast (I posted the vid here) that he was 6'5 and there isn't much difference between him and Vitali in height.

    There isn't 5 inches difference between Vitali and Foreman.


  • #30
    sxt
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,756 ✭✭✭sxt


    RiseToTheTop wrote: »
    sxt, you are probably looking at the fight with Vitali being 6'8 to 6'8.5 tall. Vitali is not that height. Wladimir Klitschkos said on BBC breakfast (I posted the vid here) that he was 6'5 and there isn't much difference between him and Vitali in height.

    There isn't 5 inches difference between Vitali and Foreman.

    There is a significant height difference no matter what way you look at it. vitali is clealy a couple of inches bigger than his brother if you look on google images


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  • #31
    RiseToTheTop
    Closed Accounts Posts: 956 ✭✭✭RiseToTheTop


    What height do you think Vitali is?

    I'll tell you what height Foreman is. He was regularly quoted at 6'3.5, 6 foot 3 and half an inch.


  • #32
    cowzerp
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,549 ✭✭✭✭cowzerp


    Vitali is on boxrec at 6,7.5"

    I'd say he is at least 6,6" that's still 3 inches taller than big George.

    Rush Boxing club and Rush Martial Arts head coach.



  • #33
    walshb
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 56,619 ✭✭✭✭walshb


    sxt wrote: »
    The 70's approach to fighting would be at a major disadvantage to today...

    The overall 70s approach, or George's 70s approach?

    What fighter today beats a prime 70s Foreman? Haye? Wlad? Solis? Adamek? Chisora? Helenius?

    Or, what fighter today beats a Frazier or Ali or Norton or Holmes?

    I admit that Vit could beat George, apart from him and his brother, who stands little chance vs. prime Foreman, who from today stands any real chance vs. Foreman, or the top men from the 70s?


  • #34
    sxt
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,756 ✭✭✭sxt


    RiseToTheTop wrote: »
    What height do you think Vitali is?

    I'll tell you what height Foreman is. He was regularly quoted at 6'3.5, 6 foot 3 and half an inch.

    I'd guess that George foreman was 6 foot 3... and that Vitali was 6 foot 7... I 'd guess that Ali was 6 foot 2...


  • #35
    walshb
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 56,619 ✭✭✭✭walshb


    I would argue Foreman is 3/4 inch taller than Ali. Maybe 6'4".

    Vit is about 2-3 inches taller than George.


  • #36
    sxt
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,756 ✭✭✭sxt


    walshb wrote: »
    The overall 70s approach, or George's 70s approach?

    What fighter today beats a prime 70s Foreman? Haye? Wlad? Solis? Adamek? Chisora? Helenius?

    Or, what fighter today beats a Frazier or Ali or Norton or Holmes?

    I admit that Vit could beat George, apart from him and his brother, who stands little chance vs. prime Foreman, who from today stands any real chance vs. Foreman, or the top men from the 70s?

    I think there is an Irish guy from cork, that would stand a great chance against the smaller, less technically skilled fighter from the 70's ...


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  • #37
    walshb
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 56,619 ✭✭✭✭walshb


    sxt wrote: »
    I think there is an Irish guy from cork, that would stand a great chance against the smaller, less technically skilled fighter from the 70's ...

    Irish is he? Great grandfather Irish?

    Well, waiting for your answer. What best men today apart from Perez:confused: (and Klits) are competitive vs. the best from the 70s?


  • #38
    sxt
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,756 ✭✭✭sxt


    walshb wrote: »
    I would argue Foreman is 3/4 inch taller than Ali. Maybe 6'4".

    Vit is about 2-3 inches taller than George.

    I'd say 4 inches difference at least... I think most both boxers height would have been exaggerated at one stage or another. Ali's trainer and Ali's daughter said Ali was 6 foot 2 instead of the 6 foot 3 he is credited as...


  • #39
    sxt
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,756 ✭✭✭sxt


    walshb wrote: »
    Irish is he? Great grandfather Irish?

    Well, waiting for your answer. What best men today apart from Perez:confused: (and Klits) are competitive vs. the best from the 70s?

    You have put me in a difficult situation, If I say someone that was beaten by a klit, most people will automactically think bum and ridicule me, because that is the information that the media feeds them

    Alot of people are unable to appreciate that the Klits would make most fighters looks like bums. There is a poll on a boxing forum called boxingscene.com, which asks,...Would American football players or Basketballs players beat The klitschkos brothers...

    Poll result is yes 55%!

    I picked Perez because he will never face a Klit , and he will never be subject to be called a bum


  • #40
    sxt
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,756 ✭✭✭sxt


    Littlehorny wrote: »
    As Ali showed, speed of foot, speed of hand and good defence were the only way to beat Foreman. Ali let Foreman beat himself and Klitschko . Foreman all the way for me !

    Ali had zero speed of foot in his fight against Foreman... ! ...Ali had zero to little defense in this fight !.. ....Ali was dead on his feet for most of the fight against Foreman...


  • #41
    walshb
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 56,619 ✭✭✭✭walshb


    sxt wrote: »
    Ali had zero speed of foot in his fight against Foreman... ! ...Ali had zero to little defense in this fight !.. ....Ali was dead on his feet for most of the fight against Foreman...

    This post tells me that either you were blind drunk watching the fight, or you are simply terrible at analysing. It's so off the mark there has to be an explanation?


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  • #42
    walshb
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 56,619 ✭✭✭✭walshb


    sxt wrote: »
    You have put me in a difficult situation, If I say someone that was beaten by a klit, most people will automactically think bum and ridicule me, because that is the information that the media feeds them

    Alot of people are unable to appreciate that the Klits would make most fighters looks like bums. There is a poll on a boxing forum called boxingscene.com, which asks,...Would American football players or Basketballs players beat The klitschkos brothers...

    Poll result is yes 55%!

    I picked Perez because he will never face a Klit , and he will never be subject to be called a bum

    What have BB&AF players got to do with my query?

    I appreciate the Klits. My query is what fighters apart from them, today, would be better than the best men from the 70s?

    You said the 70s approach wouldn't cut it when fighting the men from today.
    Well, who are these men today that would back that up?

    I am aware that the Klits have dominated most of them, but still, I have seen them when not meeting Klits, and I am puzzled as to which ones would be bettre or even really trouble the best 70s men.

    Bear in mind that neither Klit is a guarantee to be the best when the likes of Ali, Frazier, Foreman and Holmes, to name a few, are in the pot.


  • #43
    cowzerp
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,549 ✭✭✭✭cowzerp


    sxt wrote: »
    Ali had zero speed of foot in his fight against Foreman... !
    Correct, this was the game plan and Big George had very good cutting off skills and Ali knew this.
    sxt wrote: »
    ...Ali had zero to little defense in this fight !..
    I strongly disagree, he took most on the arms and used the roped to take a lot of the trauma-not standard defense but that was all part of the plan and the only way he could beat the almost unbeatable Foreman
    sxt wrote: »
    ....Ali was dead on his feet for most of the fight against Foreman...

    He wasn't-he was tired as his body was getting pounded and it was meant to be something like 46 degrees heat, both where and Ali knew George would tire, in hindsight if George had of took a round or 2 off during the fight he would have easily won the fight.

    Rush Boxing club and Rush Martial Arts head coach.



  • #44
    walshb
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 56,619 ✭✭✭✭walshb


    cowzerp wrote: »
    Correct, this was the game plan and Big George had very good cutting off skills and Ali knew this.


    I strongly disagree, he took most on the arms and used the roped to take a lot of the trauma-not standard defense but that was all part of the plan and the only way he could beat the almost unbeatable Foreman



    He wasn't-he was tired as his body was getting pounded and it was meant to be something like 46 degrees heat, both where and Ali knew George would tire, in hindsight if George had of took a round or 2 off during the fight he would have easily won the fight.

    Spot on, Paul. And, as I noted in a previous post, Formean was excellent at making a ring a very small place. I also noted that it would take a peak Clay/Ali to physically get away from a prime Foreman. Ali still used his feet to manoeuvre George to where Ali wanted the fight to take place. That is an example of clever feet and clever brain. He needed his feet a good deal, just in a different way to all out speed.

    Ali's game plan was to confuse George, spear George, out last George; and he did this to perfection. Rode many of George's bombs too.

    Why do you think if George took a rd or two off he would have "easily" won the fight? I cannot agree here. I think Ali beats George all the time, no matter what the tactics. Ali is just a notch above. His style is wrong for Foreman.

    Of the 8 rds, which did George easily win? I had Ali winning several rds even before the 7th and 8th began.


  • #45
    cowzerp
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,549 ✭✭✭✭cowzerp


    walshb wrote: »
    What have BB&AF players got to do with my query?

    I appreciate the Klits. My query is what fighters apart from them, today, would be better than the best men from the 70s?

    You said the 70s approach wouldn't cut it when fighting the men from today.
    Well, who are these men today that would back that up?

    I am aware that the Klits have dominated most of them, but still, I have seen them when not meeting Klits, and I am puzzled as to which ones would be bettre or even really trouble the best 70s men.

    Bear in mind that neither Klit is a guarantee to be the best when the likes of Ali, Frazier, Foreman and Holmes, to name a few, are in the pot.

    The basketball thing show's that most people vastly underrate the brothers, both would be up there in any generation, Wlad's chin meaning he will lost some fights, Vitali as i always say remains extremely hard to beat for anyone, Vitali blow's Frazier away

    i think style wise he is all wrong for 70's george as george would be quite easy to hit against Vitali's style

    90's George could trouble Vitali as he still had chin, Power and an excellent jab, Ali again would struggle with Vitali but if it was happening tomorrow i would genuinely think 50-50

    Funny enough i think Holmes at peak could be the harder match for Vitali than any of the others as he would be the best of them for a chess match and tactical fight and he had great all round skills.

    Rush Boxing club and Rush Martial Arts head coach.



  • #46
    walshb
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 56,619 ✭✭✭✭walshb


    cowzerp wrote: »
    The basketball thing show's that most people vastly underrate the brothers, both would be up there in any generation, Wlad's chin meaning he will lost some fights, Vitali as i always say remains extremely hard to beat for anyone, Vitali blow's Frazier away

    i think style wise he is all wrong for 70's george as george would be quite easy to hit against Vitali's style

    90's George could trouble Vitali as he still had chin, Power and an excellent jab, Ali again would struggle with Vitali but if it was happening tomorrow i would genuinely think 50-50

    Funny enough i think Holmes at peak could be the harder match for Vitali than any of the others as he would be the best of them for a chess match and tactical fight and he had great all round skills.


    I agree with the Holmes scenario. I know I said earlier that boxers would struggle wit Vit, but Holmes style is perfect to offset Vit's size.

    Frazier may lose, but blown away? No. Vit wasn't the killer Foreman was. I see this going the route.


  • #47
    tysonslovechild
    Registered Users Posts: 83 ✭✭tysonslovechild


    walshb wrote: »
    Well, some dispute that and say Vit was. I say BOTH were. Vit was far from fresh, as only expected. The video to me shows BOTH men pretty tired, and close to exhaustion.

    My point is that I would like the poster to show me how Vit was somehow fitter than George? He has not done this.

    BTW, who do you think wins? I know both men are favourties of yours.

    I see George winning most times, but not easily.

    He never said fitter he said more athletic, I tend to agree he probably was, He had a good kickboxing career also, and was always involved in sports, hes married to an ex athlete also and holds a degree in sports science. The point I am trying to make is he is someone who understands the importance of conditioning and would be better prepared than the average boxer as regards conditioning etc.


  • #48
    walshb
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 56,619 ✭✭✭✭walshb


    tysonslovechild wrote: »
    He never said fitter he said more athletic, I tend to agree he probably was, He had a good kickboxing career also, and was always involved in sports, hes married to an ex athlete also and holds a degree in sports science. The point I am trying to make is he is someone who understands the importance of conditioning and would be better prepared than the average boxer as regards conditioning etc.

    Hold on, read over his posts. He said fitter, as well as more athletic. If he did not say fitter I would not have brought it up.

    I see nothing to suggest clarity on either of these claims.

    Post #12: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056556966


  • #49
    tysonslovechild
    Registered Users Posts: 83 ✭✭tysonslovechild


    walshb wrote: »
    Hold on, read over his posts. He said fitter, as well as more athletic. If he did not say fitter I would not have brought it up.

    I see nothing to suggest clarity on either of these claims.

    Post #12: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056556966

    true he did say both, apologies. vitali for me wins this, its a close fight but vitalis movement is key here i believe as he steps out of position after getting his shots off, hes a master of keeping fighters at range and teeing off that big right. I see vitali stopping foreman in nine.

    Walshb, do you agree vitali is more athletic?


  • #50
    walshb
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 56,619 ✭✭✭✭walshb


    tysonslovechild wrote: »
    true he did say both, apologies. vitali for me wins this, its a close fight but vitalis movement is key here i believe as he steps out of position after getting his shots off, hes a master of keeping fighters at range and teeing off that big right. I see vitali stopping foreman in nine.

    Walshb, do you agree vitali is more athletic?

    No I do not. I would like to hear why the poster thinks this? What has he seen from a stiff and robotic Vitali to make this claim. Vits footwork is not at all impressive. Not saying he has no athleticism, just that it is no way clear that he is more an athletic man than a prime Foreman.

    Also, keeping Chisora, Williams, Adamek, Peter etc at range is one thing, now, keeping a prime Foreman at range, and away from you is a whole different ball game. Vit wasn't able to keep a faded Lewis away, and Lewis is the best of all his opponents. That Lewis was not near as fearsome as a prime Foreman.


  • #51
    plasmaguy
    Registered Users Posts: 1,683 ✭✭✭plasmaguy


    Having watched a rerun of the Vitali v chisora fight, vitali was very average and was even troubled by chisora at times.

    Chisora has the frazier style which can be effective, bobbing and weaving, and clearly vitali had some problems coping with it.

    I think Tyson in his prime would have knocked out Vitali in the first round, at least vitali aged 40+. Tyson would be much too fast for him. Tyson knocked out a fair few tall guys like Vitali, a few 6"4, and 6"5, and I think a 6"6 guy, so it wouldn't be a stretch to knock out Vitali.

    The bigger the fighter, generally the slower the reactions, and that's why Tyson demolished a lot of those big fighters.


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