Is being gay a choice

OldNotWIse · 10-05-2012 3:54pm

ViveLaVie wrote: »

I'm not sure as you haven't quoted anything, but I think you may be talking to me here? I'm not actually offended, I just was interested in debating this with you as it is clear we have very different ideas of what motivates sexual orientation. IMO it is a biological motivation. My body works in such a way that I am sexually attracted to men. In your argument, it seemed to me that you were saying a possible motivation for me being heterosexual was a psychological one i.e. I *may* have chosen to incline more towards heterosexuality as a preferred orientation due to psychological and societal pressures. IMO this would question my sexuality. Your stance would be that really I'm bisexual, and I have only chosen heterosexuality. In the same way, a homosexual would choose it. I contend this. I would like you to enter back into the debate, after all the point of this thread is to debate the question. Apologies if my earlier post seemed aggressive or offended you in any way.

It's hard to know, there seems to be some aversion to the "quote" button this afternoon. I thought it was aimed at me lol

I identify as gay and know that it was certainly not a choice. Why would I have chosen such a difficult adolescence for myself? If asked a few years ago if I would change given the chance, I would have said yes. (Now it's not so clear cut because I love my girlfriend very much so being able to change would mean losing her). The notion that we are all on some kind of bisexual "hinge" and decide to lean one way or another depending on our perception of how easy/difficult it is to live a gay life is not one I can take seriously. I remember being absolutely horrified when I found out what the prince and princess got up to when they rode off into the sunset on horseback :eek: I'd always wanted to be a princess up to that point

feckedformocks · 10-05-2012 4:04pm

OldNotWIse wrote: »

It's hard to know, there seems to be some aversion to the "quote" button this afternoon. I thought it was aimed at me lol

I identify as gay and know that it was certainly not a choice. Why would I have chosen such a difficult adolescence for myself? If asked a few years ago if I would change given the chance, I would have said yes. (Now it's not so clear cut because I love my girlfriend very much so being able to change would mean losing her). The notion that we are all on some kind of bisexual "hinge" and decide to lean one way or another depending on our perception of how easy/difficult it is to live a gay life is not one I can take seriously. I remember being absolutely horrified when I found out what the prince and princess got up to when they rode off into the sunset on horseback :eek: I'd always wanted to be a princess up to that point

I hope that my use of the quote button will satiate your angry appetite for quotes.

There seems to be a misinterpretation of what I wanted to convey, perhaps my message was not eloquently expressed with the clarity I was desirous to provide. I do not believe that sexual orientation is dictated solely on choosing the easier option. In my original quote I was talking in reference to why heterosexuality is so prevalent. If heterosexuals do not have strong feelings or inclinations for a same sex relationship then why would they actively choose it given that they face possible discrimination and they are able to procreate freely in a relationship with the opp sex.
My message was that we all biologically have the capacity for a same sex relationship. And as somebody else pointed out if it is a choice at all, it is not a conscious one.

ViveLaVie · 10-05-2012 4:18pm

OldNotWIse wrote: »

It's hard to know, there seems to be some aversion to the "quote" button this afternoon. I thought it was aimed at me lol

I identify as gay and know that it was certainly not a choice. Why would I have chosen such a difficult adolescence for myself? If asked a few years ago if I would change given the chance, I would have said yes. (Now it's not so clear cut because I love my girlfriend very much so being able to change would mean losing her). The notion that we are all on some kind of bisexual "hinge" and decide to lean one way or another depending on our perception of how easy/difficult it is to live a gay life is not one I can take seriously. I remember being absolutely horrified when I found out what the prince and princess got up to when they rode off into the sunset on horseback :eek: I'd always wanted to be a princess up to that point

Absolutely! I remember fancying Zach from Saved By The Bell when I was just four! Would've liked to ride off into the sunset with him (maybe when older than four though lol)

As you say, why would you choose such a difficult adolescence? If you chose to be gay in a society where it is not as accepted as heterosexuality why not choose to remain *biologically true* to yourself and be bisexual?

It doesn't really make sense as an argument. Likewise, I don't think I am straight only because it's the easier choice.

IMO we are all born with our orientation. I was born straight as much as you were born gay. To me, each of our orientations is equally valid and biologically natural.

Babybuff · 10-05-2012 4:25pm

feckedformocks wrote: »

I hope that my use of the quote button will satiate your angry appetite for quotes.

There seems to be a misinterpretation of what I wanted to convey, perhaps my message was not eloquently expressed with the clarity I was desirous to provide. I do not believe that sexual orientation is dictated solely on choosing the easier option. In my original quote I was talking in reference to why heterosexuality is so prevalent. If heterosexuals do not have strong feelings or inclinations for a same sex relationship then why would they actively choose it given that they face possible discrimination and they are able to procreate freely in a relationship with the opp sex.
My message was that we all biologically have the capacity for a same sex relationship. And as somebody else pointed out if it is a choice at all, it is not a conscious one.

I'm a reluctant fundamentalist. I identify as queer ( as oppose to lgb or t) and I understand that you don't imply psychological choices to be interpreted as a conscious ones. Individual Lgbt views should not be regarded as representing everyone, no one else out there can speak for me. I also don't believe my orientation should be considered any less valid because of it.

ViveLaVie · 10-05-2012 4:35pm

feckedformocks wrote: »

I hope that my use of the quote button will satiate your angry appetite for quotes.

There seems to be a misinterpretation of what I wanted to convey, perhaps my message was not eloquently expressed with the clarity I was desirous to provide. I do not believe that sexual orientation is dictated solely on choosing the easier option. In my original quote I was talking in reference to why heterosexuality is so prevalent. If heterosexuals do not have strong feelings or inclinations for a same sex relationship then why would they actively choose it given that they face possible discrimination and they are able to procreate freely in a relationship with the opp sex.
My message was that we all biologically have the capacity for a same sex relationship. And as somebody else pointed out if it is a choice at all, it is not a conscious one.

It just makes it a bit easier to know you you're talking to then.

The fact remains, that even if the choice is unconscious, the psychological motivations for making this choice are the same. You have mentioned discrimination, procreation and societal pressures as influences on these choices. I don't believe that I unconsciously tended towards heterosexuality above bisexuality or homosexuality. In this line of thinking, bisexuals are the only people who are not subject to psychological or societal pressures? Why would this be?

I do not believe I ever had the capacity for a bisexual or homosexual relationship as IMO I was born straight. If I accept your argument, then that means my sexual orientation is fluid and open to reinterpretation; biologically I still retain the capacity to be bisexual or homosexual but I have refused both of those orientations.

sbsquarepants · 10-05-2012 5:03pm

ViveLaVie wrote: »

If you chose to be gay in a society where it is not as accepted as heterosexuality why not choose to remain *biologically true* to yourself and be bisexual? It doesn't really make sense as an argument. Likewise, I don't think I am straight only because it's the easier choice. IMO we are all born with our orientation. I was born straight as much as you were born gay. To me, each of our orientations is equally valid and biologically natural.

Couldn't agree more.
I've never given any real thought to what my sexuality is, i just followed what felt right to me. See a woman - get horny, see a man - not so much:).
If it was a choice, bi is the obvious one, double the options and all that! But there's no choice, I just can't be attracted to men anymore than I could just stop being attracted to women. I am being biologicaly true to myself, I think it's impossible not to be!

OldNotWIse · 10-05-2012 5:06pm

feckedformocks wrote: »

I hope that my use of the quote button will satiate your angry appetite for quotes.

There seems to be a misinterpretation of what I wanted to convey, perhaps my message was not eloquently expressed with the clarity I was desirous to provide. I do not believe that sexual orientation is dictated solely on choosing the easier option. In my original quote I was talking in reference to why heterosexuality is so prevalent. If heterosexuals do not have strong feelings or inclinations for a same sex relationship then why would they actively choose it given that they face possible discrimination and they are able to procreate freely in a relationship with the opp sex.
My message was that we all biologically have the capacity for a same sex relationship. And as somebody else pointed out if it is a choice at all, it is not a conscious one.

If by "satiate your angry appetite for quotes" you mean "allow other posters to know when they are being addressed" then yes.

I remember your point about the "biological" capacity for a same sex relationship (by this, I assume you mean physical ability?) but did you not also mention something about a psychological choice? Correct me if I am wrong.

OldNotWIse · 10-05-2012 5:09pm

ViveLaVie wrote: »

Absolutely! I remember fancying Zach from Saved By The Bell when I was just four! Would've liked to ride off into the sunset with him (maybe when older than four though lol) As you say, why would you choose such a difficult adolescence? If you chose to be gay in a society where it is not as accepted as heterosexuality why not choose to remain *biologically true* to yourself and be bisexual? It doesn't really make sense as an argument. Likewise, I don't think I am straight only because it's the easier choice. IMO we are all born with our orientation. I was born straight as much as you were born gay. To me, each of our orientations is equally valid and biologically natural.

lol, to each their own

Mine was Dr Quinn Medicine Woman when I was 11 (retreats shameful and red-faced from the discussion never to be seen again

)

feckedformocks · 10-05-2012 5:19pm

OldNotWIse wrote: »

If by "satiate your angry appetite for quotes" you mean "allow other posters to know when they are being addressed" then yes.

I remember your point about the "biological" capacity for a same sex relationship (by this, I assume you mean physical ability?) but did you not also mention something about a psychological choice? Correct me if I am wrong.

Yes, which I referred to in my response, which mentioned something about conscious give it another read sure.

OldNotWIse · 10-05-2012 5:26pm

feckedformocks wrote: »

Yes, which I referred to in my response, which mentioned something about conscious give it another read sure.

Gawd stop being so narky

Just trying to have a discussion. Er...do you mind if I dont(trawl back)? I'm leaving here in 6.5 mins to go see my lovely gf (who incidentally shares your views about the "choice" element - I believe she likened it to deciding one day you might not like ketchup anymore....I watch her anxiously when we're in the chippie :rolleyes:) Actually I'm sorry for the tone of my posts, I have my girlies and am like a barb at the mo :mad: (yes yes I hear you say that oul' card, tmi etc etc) I guess none of us will ever be proved wrong or right.

But for sure I will read the posts again tomorrow I promise. Have a nice evening.

ViveLaVie · 10-05-2012 5:30pm

feckedformocks wrote: »

Yes, which I referred to in my response, which mentioned something about conscious give it another read sure.

What difference does it make if it's conscious or not? The same psychological motivations are at play.

ViveLaVie wrote: »

It just makes it a bit easier to know you you're talking to then.

The fact remains, that even if the choice is unconscious, the psychological motivations for making this choice are the same. You have mentioned discrimination, procreation and societal pressures as influences on these choices. I don't believe that I unconsciously tended towards heterosexuality above bisexuality or homosexuality. In this line of thinking, bisexuals are the only people who are not subject to psychological or societal pressures? Why would this be?

I do not believe I ever had the capacity for a bisexual or homosexual relationship as IMO I was born straight. If I accept your argument, then that means my sexual orientation is fluid and open to reinterpretation; biologically I still retain the capacity to be bisexual or homosexual but I have refused both of those orientations.

feckedformocks · 10-05-2012 6:10pm

OldNotWIse wrote: »

Gawd stop being so narky Just trying to have a discussion. Er...do you mind if I dont(trawl back)? I'm leaving here in 6.5 mins to go see my lovely gf (who incidentally shares your views about the "choice" element - I believe she likened it to deciding one day you might not like ketchup anymore....I watch her anxiously when we're in the chippie :rolleyes:) Actually I'm sorry for the tone of my posts, I have my girlies and am like a barb at the mo :mad: (yes yes I hear you say that oul' card, tmi etc etc) I guess none of us will ever be proved wrong or right. But for sure I will read the posts again tomorrow I promise. Have a nice evening.

Haha i wouldn't be too pushed myself at the end of the day you are either gay, bi, straight or even in-between.... I do detecht the humour behind those lines. good man urself

feckedformocks · 10-05-2012 6:11pm

feckedformocks wrote: »

Haha i wouldn't be too pushed myself at the end of the day you are either gay, bi, straight or even in-between.... I do detecht the humour behind those lines. good man urself

I am also hungry, shtarving (for food...)

keepkeyyellow · 10-05-2012 11:10pm

This should be pinned or something. I am sick of people asking this question.

Like does the whole gay community have to explain ourselves to one person ? We don't ask straight people did they choose to be straight

ViveLaVie · 10-05-2012 11:14pm

keepkeyyellow wrote: »

This should be pinned or something. I am sick of people asking this question.

Like does the whole gay community have to explain ourselves to one person ? We don't ask straight people did they choose to be straight

I completely agree. I think a more appropriate title for this thread would be "Is sexual orientation a choice?" because tbh the main argument on this thread regards all sexual orientations.

Also feckedformocks I'm interested to hear your response to my counter on the conscious/unconscious thing.

Fergus_Nash · 11-05-2012 9:07am

Ok I suppose I better come back here. One or two answers to my question but in the middle it got very odd for a while.

floggg wrote: »

OP, why don't you turn this question on its head to see how much sense it makes?

Did you choose to be straight and if so, when and why? Do you have sexual attractions to men but choose not to act on them? Could you wake up tomorrow and decide to be gay for a week or two, find men sexually attractive and "stimulating", go sleep with a whole bunch of men and enjoy the whole thing?

If your answer is "no, don't be ridiculous, I'm straight and my penis couldn't get erect if I was asked to sleep with loads of men," then please don't be so silly that people choose to be "gay" for the craic even though it can mean being discriminated against, abused, bullied, beaten or even killed.

If your answer is "yes I could, but then I'd still prefer women" then your bisexual with a preference for women.

If your answer is "OMG that sounds totes amazing", then your gayer then a glee christmas special.

I'm not trying to be flippant, and I'm sure you were coming from a genuine place in asking. And i'm not trying to accuse you of being gay.

It's just when you stop and think about it, it's either a silly question or the person asking it is at the very least bisexual.

You see I've done that and I still didn't get the answer. But maybe this is it - we all find our sexual orientation around puberty or thereabouts i.e. my sentence about girls having cooties at ten and smouldering hotness at fifteen. Then straight people just go on as normal and go out with the opposite sex. But LGB people have to come out. Is it because they are going against "societal norm" that they have to come out?

And before somebody is seething with anger, I do not mean that LGB people are not normal, just that you have to come out as opposed to straight people who just go along and get into a relationship without any fuss or question.

And that's probably where I am coming from. LGB people have to come out and it is a big deal, whereas straight people don't. Why is this?

OldNotWIse · 11-05-2012 9:26am

feckedformocks wrote: »

Haha i wouldn't be too pushed myself at the end of the day you are either gay, bi, straight or even in-between.... I do detecht the humour behind those lines. good man urself

Er... good man?

keepkeyyellow wrote: »

This should be pinned or something. I am sick of people asking this question.

Like does the whole gay community have to explain ourselves to one person ? We don't ask straight people did they choose to be straight

True

Annasopra · 11-05-2012 9:27am

Fergus_Nash wrote: »

Ok I suppose I better come back here. One or two answers to my question but in the middle it got very odd for a while.

You see I've done that and I still didn't get the answer. But maybe this is it - we all find our sexual orientation around puberty or thereabouts i.e. my sentence about girls having cooties at ten and smouldering hotness at fifteen. Then straight people just go on as normal and go out with the opposite sex. But LGB people have to come out. Is it because they are going against "societal norm" that they have to come out?

And before somebody is seething with anger, I do not mean that LGB people are not normal, just that you have to come out as opposed to straight people who just go along and get into a relationship without any fuss or question.

And that's probably where I am coming from. LGB people have to come out and it is a big deal, whereas straight people don't. Why is this?

Heteronormativity

Society designs so many things around straight couples in a marriage being the normal and taking on normative gender roles. It begins in the school with school books showing mummy in the kitchen and daddy in the garden and then you get all the fairytales so peoole are socialised from an early age that heterosexual realtionships with strict gender roles are normal.

OldNotWIse · 11-05-2012 9:43am

Fergus_Nash wrote: »

Ok I suppose I better come back here. One or two answers to my question but in the middle it got very odd for a while.

You see I've done that and I still didn't get the answer. But maybe this is it - we all find our sexual orientation around puberty or thereabouts i.e. my sentence about girls having cooties at ten and smouldering hotness at fifteen. Then straight people just go on as normal and go out with the opposite sex. But LGB people have to come out. Is it because they are going against "societal norm" that they have to come out?

And before somebody is seething with anger, I do not mean that LGB people are not normal, just that you have to come out as opposed to straight people who just go along and get into a relationship without any fuss or question.

And that's probably where I am coming from. LGB people have to come out and it is a big deal, whereas straight people don't. Why is this?

I can understand the point of your post, without taking offence. I think we know that saying "normal/abnormal" is not an intentional dig (if we were to pull ourselves up at every perceived political incorrection sure we'd be here all day lol). I suppose its like any minority, or anything thats not mainstream.

floggg · 11-05-2012 9:43am

Fergus_Nash wrote: »

You see I've done that and I still didn't get the answer. But maybe this is it - we all find our sexual orientation around puberty or thereabouts i.e. my sentence about girls having cooties at ten and smouldering hotness at fifteen. Then straight people just go on as normal and go out with the opposite sex. But LGB people have to come out. Is it because they are going against "societal norm" that they have to come out?

And before somebody is seething with anger, I do not mean that LGB people are not normal, just that you have to come out as opposed to straight people who just go along and get into a relationship without any fuss or question.

And that's probably where I am coming from. LGB people have to come out and it is a big deal, whereas straight people don't. Why is this?

Just to clarify, does your question solely relate to coming out rather than sexual attraction?

Gay people will stop having to come out when the rest of society stops caring about who we sleep with.

ongarboy · 11-05-2012 9:49am

Fergus_Nash wrote: »

And that's probably where I am coming from. LGB people have to come out and it is a big deal, whereas straight people don't. Why is this?

I believe the reason some (and certainly not all) come out is because for the most part, society perceives and assumes being straight is the norm. Any exception to the rule may prompt you to have to explain yourself should you feel you have to (ie coming out in the case of sexual orientation). When something is not the norm, there can be an expectation to explain it. Whether you do explain/come out is up to each individual. Of course there are situations where you are outed by others which may or may not be desirable depending on the circumstances.

For example, I will get strangers or people who don't know me well assuming I have a wife or girlfriend in comments they make to me, guys may make sexual comments about women to me assuming I also would feel the same way (eg She's hot! or I'd do her...! etc). The point is you are assumed to be straight (unless of course you have stereotypical attributes that mean you don't have to verbally come out). By not coming out, there can be awkward situations where you have to pretend or omit facts or indeed lie about yourself which, personally, I would find too much of a cross to bear the older I get, hence my reason for coming out when I did.

You say coming out is a big deal - sure it is for some and not for others, likewise for the people you are coming out to - it may or may not be a big deal. I think the key is not to make assumptions or generalisations about anything, particularly sexuality.

whattotdo · 11-05-2012 11:06am

I am a homosexual male and I believe its genetic.I have two brothers who are also gay.We have a gay uncle(my mother's brother).Its my opinion that my mother also carried the gay gene and it passed on to me and my siblings.Same with straight people-genetic.I must stress it's only my opinion.
To echo,what Baby and Crumble said why would anyone choose to be gay.My brother is a garda,he lives a lie at work feels he cant tell his colleagues at work or he would face untold amount of discrimination,cant even add them on fb as they would then know he's homosexual.My other brother is a primary school teacher,if he mentioned that in his interview he might not of got the job and have some parents take their children out of his classroom.How could anyone suggest one chooses to be gay with all the discrimination we face.

Azure_sky · 11-05-2012 11:07am

I would say sexual orientation is a biological imperative. Choice is a poor word to use for such discussions. It's technically a choice whether or not to escape from a burning building.

OldNotWIse · 11-05-2012 11:20am

whattotdo wrote: »

I am a homosexual male and I believe its genetic.I have two brothers who are also gay.We have a gay uncle(my mother's brother).Its my opinion that my mother also carried the gay gene and it passed on to me and my siblings.Same with straight people-genetic.I must stress it's only my opinion.
To echo,what Baby and Crumble said why would anyone choose to be gay.My brother is a garda,he lives a lie at work feels he cant tell his colleagues at work or he would face untold amount of discrimination,cant even add them on fb as they would then know he's homosexual.My other brother is a primary school teacher,if he mentioned that in his interview he might not of got the job and have some parents take their children out of his classroom.How could anyone suggest one chooses to be gay with all the discrimination we face.

I agree with you that it certainly not a choice. How sad that we still live in a society where your brothers must hide their true selves in order to keep the peace. Certainly many small minded people would make your brother's (the teacher's) life hell if they knew. Is their much homophobia in the guards?

You could be onto something re genetics. One of my exes has about 4 or 5 gay cousins and possibly one sibling also. My girlfriend's brother is gay, and one cousin aswell. The only thing I dont understand though is if it is genetic, surely it wouldn't still be prevalent? (given that gay people tend not to have procreated) Would the gene not have been wiped out by now? though like you said it if its recessive and some people are carriers etc...must go back to the LC bio books lol

Whether genetic or not, I do believe its certainly "biological" as opposed to some informed decision we make. I heard a theory before that its something to do with a certain point in embryonic development when the embryo gets a "dose" of certain hormones, and sometimes the levels are mixed up or something and hence someone ends up gay..(not very scientific wording but its hangover friday after boozy thursday lol)

bodice ripper · 11-05-2012 11:29am

For me it is a choice, at least sexually.

I am bisexual and female. I can and have made conscious choices to avoid sexually interacting with a particular gender.

I am going to be straight for a bit - because it is convenient, I am sick of the mind reading with women, I am curious etc.

I have no control over who I can bond with emotionally though.

OldNotWIse · 11-05-2012 11:33am

bodice ripper wrote: »

For me it is a choice, at least sexually.

I am bisexual and female. I can and have made conscious choices to avoid sexually interacting with a particular gender.

I am going to be straight for a bit - because it is convenient, I am sick of the mind reading with women, I am curious etc.

I have no control over who I can bond with emotionally though.

I am sick of women's mind games also, but am stuck with them

lol

A_Sober_Paddy · 11-05-2012 11:39am

dory wrote: »

I first fancied a girl when I was 4 - so I would say it's not a choice as I certainly didn't choose anything at that age.

What you're talking about is people who are gay for a while and then get married to someone of the opposite sex. That is totally different from the usual 'is gay a choice' question.

In answer to that. Yes, I've seen a lot of people who are gay, have long term gay relationships and then one day decide they can't do it, they can't go against the norm. Some want children more than they want to be with someone they're sexually attracted to. I've had a few friends get married and drunkenly admit they don't fancy the person they married, they just needed the perfect family idea.

So in your sense, it is a choice to live the life of a gay person because one can also choose to pretend and go get married.

Am I the only one who finds that incredible sad?

coolperson05 · 11-05-2012 11:57am

A_Sober_Paddy wrote: »

Am I the only one who finds that incredible sad?

Nope I totally agree. Imagine living a lie all the time...But I do agree, it happened in my family. I'd settle for no kids and a happy love life, but that's just me!

A_Sober_Paddy · 11-05-2012 12:05pm

coolperson05 wrote: »

Nope I totally agree. Imagine living a lie all the time...But I do agree, it happened in my family. I'd settle for no kids and a happy love life, but that's just me!

What I found sad was they were living a lie because they got married even though they were gay...

OldNotWIse · 11-05-2012 12:23pm

A_Sober_Paddy wrote: »

Am I the only one who finds that incredible sad?

I find it really sad also!

coolperson05 wrote: »

Nope I totally agree. Imagine living a lie all the time...But I do agree, it happened in my family. I'd settle for no kids and a happy love life, but that's just me!

Can't imagine it. I'm lucky to have a v supportive and open minded family (the coming out conversation basically went:
Parents: Are you gay
Me: yes, I'm sorry
Parents: dont be ridiculous, once you're happy and you're not hurting yourself or others we dont care what you do

I know a lot of people dont have it this easy

If I had to choose, I would, like you, choose a partner and love life over children, but I'm greedy - I want both! I'm so broody already at 28!

Babybuff · 11-05-2012 2:03pm

bodice ripper wrote: »

For me it is a choice, at least sexually.

I am bisexual and female. I can and have made conscious choices to avoid sexually interacting with a particular gender.

I am going to be straight for a bit - because it is convenient, I am sick of the mind reading with women, I am curious etc.

I have no control over who I can bond with emotionally though.

Just wondering, the women who play head games, do you find it's gay/bi women or just women in general?

whattotdo · 11-05-2012 2:32pm

OldNotWIse wrote: »

I agree with you that it certainly not a choice. How sad that we still live in a society where your brothers must hide their true selves in order to keep the peace. Certainly many small minded people would make your brother's (the teacher's) life hell if they knew. Is their much homophobia in the guards?

You could be onto something re genetics. One of my exes has about 4 or 5 gay cousins and possibly one sibling also. My girlfriend's brother is gay, and one cousin aswell. The only thing I dont understand though is if it is genetic, surely it wouldn't still be prevalent? (given that gay people tend not to have procreated) Would the gene not have been wiped out by now? though like you said it if its recessive and some people are carriers etc...must go back to the LC bio books lol Whether genetic or not, I do believe its certainly "biological" as opposed to some informed decision we make. I heard a theory before that its something to do with a certain point in embryonic development when the embryo gets a "dose" of certain hormones, and sometimes the levels are mixed up or something and hence someone ends up gay..(not very scientific wording but its hangover friday after boozy thursday lol)

I 100% believe its genetics eventhough homosexual couples cant reproduce as you say.I also have a sister who is straight she could well have a gay gene that is dormant which her children will inherit.In some of them it will remain dormant therefore passing on to next generation .Yes,from his experience the guards is a very homophobic environment to work in,gay jokes been the most popular type of joke.He has been in three different stations and homophobia was prevalent in all three.It would be unfair of me to generalise the whole organisation but he hates his job because he can't be his true self,his partner is a 'she' and not a 'he','him' becomes 'her'...his partner is never free when work meet up socially,no quality of life.He plans to keep his private life and work life totally separate but that will only last for so long

OldNotWIse · 11-05-2012 2:47pm

whattotdo wrote: »

I 100% believe its genetics eventhough homosexual couples cant reproduce as you say.I also have a sister who is straight she could well have a gay gene that is dormant which her children will inherit.In some of them it will remain dormant therefore passing on to next generation .Yes,from his experience the guards is a very homophobic environment to work in,gay jokes been the most popular type of joke.He has been in three different stations and homophobia was prevalent in all three.It would be unfair of me to generalise the whole organisation but he hates his job because he can't be his true self,his partner is a 'she' and not a 'he','him' becomes 'her'...his partner is never free when work meet up socially,no quality of life.He plans to keep his private life and work life totally separate but that will only last for so long

That actually makes sense. I think I'm the only gay person in my family

I spent years hoping someone else would come out just so I would not be the only one lol

Thats so terrible about the guards. Perhaps if he came out they wouldn't be as bad though? If they dont know there's a gay colleague they might be more free and easy with their slagging (not that I in any way condone the slagging of course) but if they knew he was gay, they might realise, "hey he's actually still the same guy, same colleague, same guard" - perhaps I'm being a little idealistic though

whattotdo · 11-05-2012 3:04pm

OldNotWIse wrote: »

That actually makes sense. I think I'm the only gay person in my family I spent years hoping someone else would come out just so I would not be the only one lol

Thats so terrible about the guards. Perhaps if he came out they wouldn't be as bad though? If they dont know there's a gay colleague they might be more free and easy with their slagging (not that I in any way condone the slagging of course) but if they knew he was gay, they might realise, "hey he's actually still the same guy, same colleague, same guard" - perhaps I'm being a little idealistic though

He often thought of coming out but eventually he will have to,lies will catch up with him.His work colleagues would probably then stop the slagging but instead of saying it they'd be thinking it and leave it to when he's not present.It all comes back to fact that LGBT community is a minority group so we are an easy target even with the likes of Obama supporting equal rights.The only way slagging will stop is if we are no longer a minority group imo:(
Thanks for your advice,I'll pass it onto him.
Sorry mods if this is slightly off topic but I suppose it backs up my opinion that its not a choice.

Babybuff · 11-05-2012 3:17pm

whattotdo wrote: »

He often thought of coming out but eventually he will have to,lies will catch up with him.His work colleagues would probably then stop the slagging but instead of saying it they'd be thinking it and leave it to when he's not present.It all comes back to fact that LGBT community is a minority group so we are an easy target even with the likes of Obama supporting equal rights.The only way slagging will stop is if we are no longer a minority group imo:(
Thanks for your advice,I'll pass it onto him.
Sorry mods if this is slightly off topic but I suppose it backs up my opinion that its not a choice.

you do realise that for a long as it's considered a genetic difference you will always be in a minority.

OldNotWIse · 11-05-2012 3:38pm

whattotdo wrote: »

He often thought of coming out but eventually he will have to,lies will catch up with him.His work colleagues would probably then stop the slagging but instead of saying it they'd be thinking it and leave it to when he's not present.It all comes back to fact that LGBT community is a minority group so we are an easy target even with the likes of Obama supporting equal rights.The only way slagging will stop is if we are no longer a minority group imo:(
Thanks for your advice,I'll pass it onto him.
Sorry mods if this is slightly off topic but I suppose it backs up my opinion that its not a choice.

I agree minority groups are always an easy target for bullies who validate their own existence by putting others down. Sometimes, a good way to come out is to "not" come out. Instead of saying, "hey everyone I have something to tell you - I'm gay" it can be good to just drop it casually into conversation. Thats what I did at work. When someone asked if I was bringing anyone to the work Christmas party, I said, "yeah my girlfriend, if she's about that night". In a way, if a gay person makes a big issue about being gay, it kind of sets the precedent for their straight counterparts to do the same. Of course, this is not to say that their actions are in any way justified or right. I can only imagine how difficult it is for him to be in this environment and feel such pressure. I hope all goes well for him.

Babybuff wrote: »

you do realise that for a long as it's considered a genetic difference you will always be in a minority.

Is the minority status not to do with the percentage of people who actually fall under the category in question rather than why or how they fall under it? Be it genetics, hormonal, psychological etc, are gay people not considered a "minority" because of their numbers, as opposed to their beliefs as to why they are gay in the first place?

Minority
1.the smaller part or number; a number, part, or amount forming less than half of the whole.
2. a smaller party or group opposed to a majority, as in voting or other action.
3. a group differing, especially in race, religion, or ethnic background, from the majority of a population: legislation aimed at providing equal rights for minorities.
4. a member of such a group.
5. the state or period of being under the legal age of full responsibility.

Annasopra · 11-05-2012 3:41pm

I really don't know why we continually tie ourselves up in knots over nature v nurture and I also wonder why we do so. It seems to me that there is an ulterior motive behind it all. If it's nature - we can abort the foetuses that might turn out gay - If it's nurture we can train the parents how not to create gay children. I am what I am and I don't see the point in trying to find out why so that right wing zealots can suppress others like me.

OldNotWIse · 11-05-2012 3:46pm

mango salsa wrote: »

I really don't know why we continually tie ourselves up in knots over nature v nurture and I also wonder why we do so. It seems to me that there is an ulterior motive behind it all. If it's nature - we can abort the foetuses that might turn out gay - If it's nurture we can train the parents how not to create gay children. I am what I am and I don't see the point in trying to find out why so that right wing zealots can suppress others like me.

Why?

Annasopra · 11-05-2012 3:52pm

OldNotWIse wrote: »

Why?

I'm being dramatic but that is the logical conclusion that comes to me about people obsessing about why we are what we are

OldNotWIse · 11-05-2012 4:00pm

mango salsa wrote: »

I'm being dramatic but that is the logical conclusion that comes to me about people obsessing about why we are what we are

Ah ok,

Babybuff · 11-05-2012 4:15pm

OldNotWIse wrote: »

Is the minority status not to do with the percentage of people who actually fall under the category in question rather than why or how they fall under it? Be it genetics, hormonal, psychological etc, are gay people not considered a "minority" because of their numbers, as opposed to their beliefs as to why they are gay in the first place?

Minority
1.the smaller part or number; a number, part, or amount forming less than half of the whole.
2. a smaller party or group opposed to a majority, as in voting or other action.
3. a group differing, especially in race, religion, or ethnic background, from the majority of a population: legislation aimed at providing equal rights for minorities.
4. a member of such a group.
5. the state or period of being under the legal age of full responsibility.

I had a conversation with a random stranger in a late bar recently about sexual persuasion. She was mid twenties and fairly regular kind of every day person. When the topic of orientation came up (she was with her male cousin) I said I recognised her as straight (which she was) but she stopped me mid sentence and said, so do you believe I could never fall in love with a woman? She said it with implication and I faltered a bit because I didn't see it coming. To me she was the straightest girl in the room but she is not stupid enough to discredit ever falling in love with a woman. That's got nothing to do with genetics.

Now for a couple of facts, biology and genetics are two very different things. For example a large perecentage of women with pcos (an endocrine disorder) identify as lesbian. Pcos may have a genetic marker but the biological influences (the result of an excess production of testosterone) may be a factor in some womens orientation.

However it is, I don't believe it is the same for everybody. I know more men aggressively believe they are genetically designed that way but as a female, I know a lot of women who don't have such harsh boundaries when it comes to love or identity. They appear to be more flexible with their ideals and are definitely more understanding of alternate sexual persuasions. This makes for a much more comfortable and integrated society to live in. I find the lgbt culture much more oppressive in it's stance on integration and often seem more determined to continue segregating based on their "beliefs".

whattotdo · 11-05-2012 6:46pm

mango salsa wrote: »

I really don't know why we continually tie ourselves up in knots over nature v nurture and I also wonder why we do so. It seems to me that there is an ulterior motive behind it all. If it's nature - we can abort the foetuses that might turn out gay - If it's nurture we can train the parents how not to create gay children. I am what I am and I don't see the point in trying to find out why so that right wing zealots can suppress others like me.

I would like to know for definite just simply to have a greater level of understanding and also I believe it would result in greater level of respect shown to LGBT community.So many people think gay men are gay because when they were a kid they were handed a barbie instead of a action man,were victims of sexual abuse etc etc absolute nonsense imo.Religious groups who condemn us yet their God(through genetics) created our sexuality as well as there own sexuality.

Side note:It's widely accepted 'straight' people are born straight,why not gay people are born gay?

Babybuff · 11-05-2012 7:31pm

whattotdo wrote: »

I would like to know for definite just simply to have a greater level of understanding and also I believe it would result in greater level of respect shown to LGBT community.So many people think gay men are gay because when they were a kid they were handed a barbie instead of a action man,were victims of sexual abuse etc etc absolute nonsense imo.Religious groups who condemn us yet their God(through genetics) created our sexuality as well as there own sexuality.

Side note:It's widely accepted 'straight' people are born straight,why not gay people are born gay?

Here's some things I know for sure. There are a lot of gay men and women out there who have been abused as children or adults. There are also a lot of straight men and women who have been too. Ultimately what you're trying to say is that your reasons for your sexuality are more valid because you haven't and tbh, that's just insulting to those who have. It's not a competition to see who has more genuine reason to be who they are, maybe you would do better to just accept yourself first and you'll find other people will start doing the same.

Annasopra · 11-05-2012 8:20pm

whattotdo wrote: »

I believe it would result in greater level of respect shown to LGBT community.

I fail to see how. I really don't see how I'll be respected because I have a gene or because I played with my sisters dolls.

floggg · 11-05-2012 9:50pm

If you feel threatened by where somebody else puts their man/lady parts, you'll feel threatened regardless of the reason why they put their man/lady parts there!

whattotdo · 13-05-2012 5:54pm

Babybuff wrote: »

Here's some things I know for sure. There are a lot of gay men and women out there who have been abused as children or adults. There are also a lot of straight men and women who have been too. Ultimately what you're trying to say is that your reasons for your sexuality are more valid because you haven't and tbh, that's just insulting to those who have. It's not a competition to see who has more genuine reason to be who they are, maybe you would do better to just accept yourself first and you'll find other people will start doing the same.

That's not what I'm trying to say at all,your clearly mistaken.Im just saying from my own experience of coming out and some of my gay friends' experiences, my peers suggested certain things that caused my homosexuality,examples of what they said I gave in my previous post.

Babybuff · 13-05-2012 6:04pm

whattotdo wrote: »

That's not what I'm trying to say at all,your clearly mistaken.Im just saying from my own experience of coming out and some of my gay friends' experiences, my peers suggested certain things that caused my homosexuality,examples of what they said I gave in my previous post.

and the point I'm making is it shouldn't matter. Everyone I meet has a "reason" why they think I'm gay, sometimes it's fairly insulting stuff but if you think about it what difference does it make, basically in their mind being with someone of the same sex is ultimately wrong and I shouldn't have to justify why it's not to anybody. If they feel like they need a reason then they probably have underlying issues with your sexuality anyway and you would probably do better without them in your life.

Pedant · 13-05-2012 6:29pm

I think the terms "gay", "lesbian" and "bisexual" (and everything that goes with them) are mere social constructions brought by about society's compulsion to categorise.

If this is the case, one might regard being "gay", "lesbian" or "bisexual" as a choice, especially if it turned out that everyone had their own individual and distinct sexual orientation. Same-sex attraction, however, is not a choice. I think Michel Faucault (who was "gay" himself) argued something along these line, though I could be bullshitting.

To be pedantic, therefore, you should say "having same-sex attractions is not a choice", rather than "being gay is not a choice".

ViveLaVie · 14-05-2012 1:55am

Babybuff wrote: »

I had a conversation with a random stranger in a late bar recently about sexual persuasion. She was mid twenties and fairly regular kind of every day person. When the topic of orientation came up (she was with her male cousin) I said I recognised her as straight (which she was) but she stopped me mid sentence and said, so do you believe I could never fall in love with a woman? She said it with implication and I faltered a bit because I didn't see it coming. To me she was the straightest girl in the room but she is not stupid enough to discredit ever falling in love with a woman. That's got nothing to do with genetics.

Just a thought... are you suggesting that straight women who won't entertain the idea that they could fall in love with a woman are stupid??

To me, this seems quite intolerant of those who identify as straight, or even as gay, because you're saying anyone who doesn't realise their capacity to fall in love with both sexes is stupid. I realise that what you're suggesting is that sexuality is fluid etc but I find the phrasing you used a bit strong...

OldNotWIse · 14-05-2012 11:25am

Babybuff wrote: »

I had a conversation with a random stranger in a late bar recently about sexual persuasion. She was mid twenties and fairly regular kind of every day person. When the topic of orientation came up (she was with her male cousin) I said I recognised her as straight (which she was) but she stopped me mid sentence and said, so do you believe I could never fall in love with a woman? She said it with implication and I faltered a bit because I didn't see it coming. To me she was the straightest girl in the room but she is not stupid enough to discredit ever falling in love with a woman. That's got nothing to do with genetics.

Now for a couple of facts, biology and genetics are two very different things. For example a large perecentage of women with pcos (an endocrine disorder) identify as lesbian. Pcos may have a genetic marker but the biological influences (the result of an excess production of testosterone) may be a factor in some womens orientation.

However it is, I don't believe it is the same for everybody. I know more men aggressively believe they are genetically designed that way but as a female, I know a lot of women who don't have such harsh boundaries when it comes to love or identity. They appear to be more flexible with their ideals and are definitely more understanding of alternate sexual persuasions. This makes for a much more comfortable and integrated society to live in. I find the lgbt culture much more oppressive in it's stance on integration and often seem more determined to continue segregating based on their "beliefs".

Of course, your opinions are no more right or wrong than mine or anybody else's. Who is to say who is right or wrong. We can only speak for ourselves. Certainly, when I speak for myself I identify as lesbian, and I dont consider the fact that I have "dicredited falling in love with a man" as a reflection of my stupidity, nor does it make me less understanding of alternative sexual persuasions.

Re the pcos point, I actually went to college with a girl who has been diagnosed with this. She initially identified as straight, them gay, then bisexual. As far as I know she is now "mistress" to a married man in his 50's but she is happy so in the end that's all that matters. She actually professed undying love to me one day (which was awkward as we were good friends but managed to remain friends for some time after that - the reasons we fell apart were separate) She had a brief fling with my best friend and then left her for a transgender male (identified as a lesbian woman in a man's body - he is know living a straight life and has recently married a woman) but - we are all happy. If we are happy with who we are and we dont feel the need to define and justify ourselves or others, then that is what matters. We are all just trying to live our lives.

I agree with you re the oppression, I would even go so far as to say I find the gay scene very incestuous...people dating exes friends and friends exes and exes exes etc - evrybody knows what evrybody else is doing. At least, that has been my experience.

Is being gay a choice

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