Rules of Golf on Smartphones

PhilipMarlowe · 03-04-2012 3:06pm

Using a device to access or measure weather information i.e. wind speed, direction, temperature etc. is a straightforward breach of 14.3, independent of whether or not you are using a browser, ap, there being a local rule allowing DMDs, the phase of the moon, the colour if your skin...

GreeBo · 03-04-2012 3:19pm

IITYWYBMAD wrote: »

Could you tell me what phone, and what App you are using? Thanks.

It was a specific point in time, the phone or app were not unilaterally cleared for play.
Android using Swing by Swing GPS app.

matt-dublin · 03-04-2012 3:20pm

GreeBo wrote: »

It was a specific point in time, the phone or app were not unilaterally cleared for play.
Android using Swing by Swing GPS app.

whats the hardware that your android os is running on.

IITYWYBMAD · 03-04-2012 3:31pm

GreeBo wrote: »

It was a specific point in time, the phone or app were not unilaterally cleared for play.
Android using Swing by Swing GPS app.

Thanks, I don't really understand your point to be honest, and I'm really not looking to pick an argument, but what you have said about being allowed use a smartphone and App as a DMD is of real interest to me and my business.

So, what do you mean by a specific point in time. And when you say, approved for play in a GUI event, I'm assuming it was inter-club and that it was a GUI official who approved it. Is that correct?

GreeBo · 03-04-2012 3:36pm

Jul3s wrote: »

. it's only if the device itself has the capability to measure the weather conditions in situ),

Where are you getting this bit from?

If the device has an app that tells you the weather its a breach of the rules.
So if you have a weather widget on your home screen or your device has a compass app (like 99% of them do) then its a breach. Even if you are not using the app or its turned off/disabled.

matt-dublin · 03-04-2012 3:42pm

or if it has a compass, anenamometer (spelling) or gyroscope it is illegal.

an iphone has two of the above, most android phones would have one.

the gyroscope is illegal because it can be used to measure slope, even if there is no software on the phone it still has the capability to do so thus making it illegal

GreeBo · 04-04-2012 10:00am

IITYWYBMAD wrote: »

Thanks, I don't really understand your point to be honest, and I'm really not looking to pick an argument, but what you have said about being allowed use a smartphone and App as a DMD is of real interest to me and my business.

So, what do you mean by a specific point in time. And when you say, approved for play in a GUI event, I'm assuming it was inter-club and that it was a GUI official who approved it. Is that correct?

My point is that just because my phone was approved for that event doesnt mean that it would be approved automatically at the next event, or that anyone else with the same phone/app would be approved.

Approval is given at a point in time. They checked the phone and approved it. But since i could go home that night and download a bunch of illegal apps the "approval" was purely for that point in time. Make sense?

Correct on your last 2 questions.

matt-dublin · 04-04-2012 10:18am

Greebo, does your phone have the ability to flip from landscape to portrait automatically?

GreeBo · 04-04-2012 10:35am

matt-dublin wrote: »

Greebo, does your phone have the ability to flip from landscape to portrait automatically?

Yes. But having the hardware without any way to report/view the details does not constitute a breach from what I can see. The Gyroscope does not provide the slope information to the user. It provides it to the hardware/OS and its up to some app to report it to the user. If you dont have the app you do not have a device thats capable of reporting information to the user thus its not a breach of 14.3?

IITYWYBMAD · 04-04-2012 10:37am

GreeBo wrote: »

My point is that just because my phone was approved for that event doesnt mean that it would be approved automatically at the next event, or that anyone else with the same phone/app would be approved.

Approval is given at a point in time. They checked the phone and approved it. But since i could go home that night and download a bunch of illegal apps the "approval" was purely for that point in time. Make sense?

Correct on your last 2 questions.

Your statement makes sense. However it flies completely in the face of the rules.

I simply don't understand how a GUI rules official would be in possession of the knowledge, or more importantly, to be expected to be in possession of the knowledge that would allow him/her make that call.

I've been talking to the GUI for months, trying to make some headway on Apps for smartphones, and having little or no luck so far.

My understanding is (or certainly was until your post) that it's nothing got to do with the actual Apps on the device, more so it's the device itself that is the issue. However your experience appears to completely contradict this.

I'm going to follow up with the GUI and I'll feedback what they tell me. I may PM you for more details, if that's ok?

GreeBo · 04-04-2012 10:47am

IITYWYBMAD wrote: »

Your statement makes sense. However it flies completely in the face of the rules.

I simply don't understand how a GUI rules official would be in possession of the knowledge, or more importantly, to be expected to be in possession of the knowledge that would allow him/her make that call.

I've been talking to the GUI for months, trying to make some headway on Apps for smartphones, and having little or no luck so far.

My understanding is (or certainly was until your post) that it's nothing got to do with the actual Apps on the device, more so it's the device itself that is the issue. However your experience appears to completely contradict this.

I'm going to follow up with the GUI and I'll feedback what they tell me. I may PM you for more details, if that's ok?

I cant see how they could argue that really. Any device that connects to anything is capable or providing directional (triangulation based) information, so doesnt that make them all illegal?
Even golf specific GPS devices are triangulating so they can certainly tell which direction you are heading..i.e. a compass?
They may not be reporting that to the user but I am pretty sure there is at least debugging code in there that is accessible somehow.
They need to be way more specific before they make these sorts of call IMHO, lest it turn into a farce.

matt-dublin · 04-04-2012 10:53am

GreeBo wrote: »

Yes. But having the hardware without any way to report/view the details does not constitute a breach from what I can see. The Gyroscope does not provide the slope information to the user. It provides it to the hardware/OS and its up to some app to report it to the user. If you dont have the app you do not have a device thats capable of reporting information to the user thus its not a breach of 14.3?

It does, once it has the abilitilty to do it its illegal.

even if there is a local rule or allowance in place, the RANDA rule does not permit this under a local rule.

the only way it would be compliant would be to remove the gyroscope.

Im not argueing with youe and i agree with your triangulation point above but in the instance youve provided above you should have been disqualified ot told not to use the device.

GreeBo · 04-04-2012 10:54am

matt-dublin wrote: »

It does, once it has the abilitilty to do it its illegal.

even if there is a local rule or allowance in place, the RANDA rule does not permit this under a local rule.

the only way it would be compliant would be to remove the gyroscope.

Likewise for every GPS device so? (per my above example)

matt-dublin · 04-04-2012 10:56am

Most of the golf specific devices don't have gyroscopes which can measure slope and angles quote accuretly

Im not argueing with youe and i agree with your triangulation point above but in the instance youve provided above you should have been disqualified ot told not to use the device.

GreeBo · 04-04-2012 10:59am

matt-dublin wrote: »

Most of the golf specific devices don't have gyroscopes which can measure slope and angles quote accuretly

Im not argueing with youe and i agree with your triangulation point above but in the instance youve provided above you should have been disqualified ot told not to use the device.

They dont have gyroscopes, but they do have the ability to determine direction. If the rule is that having the technical ability to measure these things (no requirement on reporting them) then all GPS devices are a breach and only laser devices should be allowed. Also what difference does the "accurately" make?

I checked my device with the GUI official on duty on the day before I played and he approved it. As far as Im concerned thats all I can do. If the GUI approve it then I will use it.

bustercherry · 04-04-2012 11:27am

GreeBo wrote: »

I cant see how they could argue that really. Any device that connects to anything is capable or providing directional (triangulation based) information, so doesnt that make them all illegal?
Even golf specific GPS devices are triangulating so they can certainly tell which direction you are heading..i.e. a compass?
They may not be reporting that to the user but I am pretty sure there is at least debugging code in there that is accessible somehow.
They need to be way more specific before they make these sorts of call IMHO, lest it turn into a farce.

Are they the same? Triangulation only calculates the exact coordinates of GPS receiver (including Cell Triagulation) at a certain point of time. You can only calculate your bearing by comparing 2 or more coordinates (usually over a set period of time), which will give you the direction you travelled. It will not however tell you which way you are facing, nor when you are standing still can it determine if you change the direction you are facing.

matt-dublin · 04-04-2012 11:34am

Bustercherry, calculating your current position and a position on the middle of the green gives you directionality and very accurately too, down to one or two degrees i would wager.

Greebo, if your phone doesn't have a gyroscope how does it change from portrait to landscap automatically

bustercherry · 04-04-2012 11:41am

matt-dublin wrote: »

Bustercherry, calculating your current position and a position on the middle of the green gives you directionality and very accurately too, down to one or two degrees i would wager.

Greebo, if your phone doesn't have a gyroscope how does it change from portrait to landscap automatically

Your missing the point, it calculates the bearing between the 2 coordinates. Your example uses known coordinates (ie. map data) to calculate the bearing. This is completely different from the direction you are facing, the info you get with a compass.

GreeBo · 04-04-2012 11:42am

bustercherry wrote: »

Are they the same? Triangulation only calculates the exact coordinates of GPS receiver (including Cell Triagulation) at a certain point of time. You can only calculate your bearing by comparing 2 or more coordinates (usually over a set period of time), which will give you the direction you travelled. It will not however tell you which way you are facing, nor when you are standing still can it determine if you change the direction you are facing.

Exactly, if your GPS is tracking the last X coordinates then it has a pretty good idea which direction you are walking, which, if you had this information you could use to determine which direction you are facing, and then extrapolate any direction, simply by rotating. (e.g. I was walking north, thus anything to my right is east, so now I know what direction the prevailing wind is blowing even if cant feel it because the tee is sheltered.

@matt-dublin
I already said my phone does have a gyroscope

GreeBo · 04-04-2012 11:54am

bustercherry wrote: »

Your missing the point, it calculates the bearing between the 2 coordinates. Your example uses known coordinates (ie. map data) to calculate the bearing. This is completely different from the direction you are facing, the info you get with a compass.

Assuming each satellite knows where it is in orbit.
Couldnt the GPS device determine what direction you are travelling by noting the difference between two co-ordinates.
I.e. you are now closer to Satellite X and further from Y and further still from Z thus you are travelling North? It may not be reporting this information, but Im pretty sure it knows it.

Also, a Golf GPS device has your course mapped. It probably also knows what direction a hole is facing, even if it doesnt tell you. Is this a breach?

bustercherry · 04-04-2012 12:22pm

GreeBo wrote: »

Assuming each satellite knows where it is in orbit.
Couldnt the GPS device determine what direction you are travelling by noting the difference between two co-ordinates.
I.e. you are now closer to Satellite X and further from Y and further still from Z thus you are travelling North? It may not be reporting this information, but Im pretty sure it knows it.

Also, a Golf GPS device has your course mapped. It probably also knows what direction a hole is facing, even if it doesnt tell you. Is this a breach?

Think of it this way, a crab can walk sideways

Does that mean he is facing the same direction he is travelling?

matt-dublin · 04-04-2012 1:51pm

bustercherry wrote: »

Think of it this way, a crab can walk sideways Does that mean he is facing the same direction he is travelling?

Its between two points, because of this there is a direction between point a and point b.

from this a compass bearing can be determined between the two points as it doesn't matter what direction you're pointing in.

because you know the exact co-ordinates of the teebox, and the centre of the green you can using the haversine formula determine the exact compass bearing between the two points and determine the exact distance (i believe the haversine formula is what GPS devices use to determine distance between points anyway)

its somewhat basic navigational skills

bustercherry · 04-04-2012 2:23pm

matt-dublin wrote: »

Its between two points, because of this there is a direction between point a and point b.

from this a compass bearing can be determined between the two points as it doesn't matter what direction you're pointing in.

because you know the exact co-ordinates of the teebox, and the centre of the green you can using the haversine formula determine the exact compass bearing between the two points and determine the exact distance (i believe the haversine formula is what GPS devices use to determine distance between points anyway)

its somewhat basic navigational skills

Great wiki there but again while you have rushed off to prove me wrong, you are completely missing the point. We have already established that the bearing can be established between 2 points. What you cannot establish is the direction the device is facing (you can determine the direction it is travelling) when calculating this bearing, this is the data an electronic compass gives (much like the gyroscope can measure incline etc....).

It's a somewhat basic understanding of the haversine formula

GreeBo · 04-04-2012 2:29pm

bustercherry wrote: »

Think of it this way, a crab can walk sideways Does that mean he is facing the same direction he is travelling?

No, but how does it matter? I walk in the direction the hole plays, my GPS can assume that I am travelling in the same direction that I am travelling.

My GPS also knows what direction the hole plays, since it has it mapped. I would be willing to bet that when mapping courses a compass and GPS are used and values from both are recorded.

Anyway, my point is that any GPS type of device is probably internally aware of direction and also elevation. (distance from device to satellite?) So even though it doesnt report this to a user, does this make the device non conforming? If it doesnt then a smart phone having a gyro shouldnt be an issue, but according to the rules it is.

matt-dublin · 04-04-2012 3:18pm

that doesn't actually matter, because you can get your bearing from the two points you can very easily come up with your bearing to any point based on directionaility, or by selecting another hole on your gps.

i believe it is you who is missing the point not me.

if you know the bearing of the direction you're playing and you know that the wind is directly playing into the face of a green from where you're standing, set your gps to it and you've got a bearing on the wind.
so now you've a bearing on the wind, and on your hole and how the wind is playing across your hole which can give you a significant advantage.

IITYWYBMAD · 05-04-2012 8:34am

GreeBo wrote: »

I cant see how they could argue that really. Any device that connects to anything is capable or providing directional (triangulation based) information, so doesnt that make them all illegal?
Even golf specific GPS devices are triangulating so they can certainly tell which direction you are heading..i.e. a compass?
They may not be reporting that to the user but I am pretty sure there is at least debugging code in there that is accessible somehow.
They need to be way more specific before they make these sorts of call IMHO, lest it turn into a farce.

The ruling is a farce. One could gauge wind direction by simply looking at the Sun to be honest, and that's not really my point. You can argue until you are blue in the face about the capability of x device versus y device.

My point is that you have stated a case where a GUI official has approved you to play a GUI comp and use a Smartphone with an installed gyroscope for use in a competition. I have a number of questions for the GUI in this regard.

1) What qualifies them to make this determination (for example what do they know about hidden software programs that a two year old could install on a phone and use nefariously)?
2) Is it now the case that devices such as smartphones are to be allowed in competition on a 'case by case' basis?
3) My understanding, after talking to GUI council for the past 12 months is that it is the native capability of the device that is the issue (forget about amateur engineers and laser pointing devices), and not the software installed at any point in time, has this now changed?

I have 1 or 2 other points to clarify with them, but I won't bore you all with the technicalities. I've sent you a PM Greebo for further info.

IITYWYBMAD · 05-04-2012 9:05am

Villain wrote: »

He said it didn't had a gyroscope.

GreeBo wrote: »

....

@matt-dublin
I already said my phone does have a gyroscope

What?

Villain · 05-04-2012 9:08am

LOL sorry my bad

That is quite odd then!

GreeBo · 05-04-2012 9:39am

I was thinking about this on my way into work today.

RANDA wrote:

A multi-functional device, such as a smartphone or PDA, may be used as a distance measuring device provided it contains a distance measuring application that meets all of the above limitations (i.e. it must measure distance only). In addition, when the distance measuring application is being used, there must be no other features or applications installed on the device that, if used, would be in breach of the Rules, whether or not they are actually used.

The part bolded above, to me at least, completely goes against the spirit of the game. Golf is supposed to be self-governing. But now we are no longer trusting people to have non-conforming apps but not use them. So we are no longer trusting people to not cheat or break the rules.
Having the ability to cheat if you want (with a SmartPhone) is now illegal. What makes smart phones so special? I have the ability to cheat in numerous other ways that RANDA trusts me to not do, yet with SmartPhones they have taken a stance and decided they dont trust me.
Ridiculous really.
:cool:

matt-dublin · 05-04-2012 9:42am

Its to do with the older members i suspect, the board governing the rules would be quote old and likely cant use smartphones :P :P

Rules of Golf on Smartphones

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