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Rules of Golf on Smartphones

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Comments

  • #52
    bustercherry
    Registered Users Posts: 1,076 ✭✭✭bustercherry


    GreeBo wrote: »
    Assuming each satellite knows where it is in orbit.
    Couldnt the GPS device determine what direction you are travelling by noting the difference between two co-ordinates.
    I.e. you are now closer to Satellite X and further from Y and further still from Z thus you are travelling North? It may not be reporting this information, but Im pretty sure it knows it.

    Also, a Golf GPS device has your course mapped. It probably also knows what direction a hole is facing, even if it doesnt tell you. Is this a breach?

    Think of it this way, a crab can walk sideways ;) Does that mean he is facing the same direction he is travelling?


  • #53
    matt-dublin
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,468 ✭✭✭matt-dublin


    bustercherry wrote: »
    Think of it this way, a crab can walk sideways ;) Does that mean he is facing the same direction he is travelling?
    Its between two points, because of this there is a direction between point a and point b.

    from this a compass bearing can be determined between the two points as it doesn't matter what direction you're pointing in.

    because you know the exact co-ordinates of the teebox, and the centre of the green you can using the haversine formula determine the exact compass bearing between the two points and determine the exact distance (i believe the haversine formula is what GPS devices use to determine distance between points anyway)

    its somewhat basic navigational skills


  • #54
    bustercherry
    Registered Users Posts: 1,076 ✭✭✭bustercherry


    matt-dublin wrote: »
    Its between two points, because of this there is a direction between point a and point b.

    from this a compass bearing can be determined between the two points as it doesn't matter what direction you're pointing in.

    because you know the exact co-ordinates of the teebox, and the centre of the green you can using the haversine formula determine the exact compass bearing between the two points and determine the exact distance (i believe the haversine formula is what GPS devices use to determine distance between points anyway)

    its somewhat basic navigational skills

    Great wiki there but again while you have rushed off to prove me wrong, you are completely missing the point. We have already established that the bearing can be established between 2 points. What you cannot establish is the direction the device is facing (you can determine the direction it is travelling) when calculating this bearing, this is the data an electronic compass gives (much like the gyroscope can measure incline etc....).

    It's a somewhat basic understanding of the haversine formula ;)


  • #55
    GreeBo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,253 ✭✭✭✭GreeBo


    bustercherry wrote: »
    Think of it this way, a crab can walk sideways ;) Does that mean he is facing the same direction he is travelling?

    No, but how does it matter? I walk in the direction the hole plays, my GPS can assume that I am travelling in the same direction that I am travelling.

    My GPS also knows what direction the hole plays, since it has it mapped. I would be willing to bet that when mapping courses a compass and GPS are used and values from both are recorded.

    Anyway, my point is that any GPS type of device is probably internally aware of direction and also elevation. (distance from device to satellite?) So even though it doesnt report this to a user, does this make the device non conforming? If it doesnt then a smart phone having a gyro shouldnt be an issue, but according to the rules it is.


  • #56
    matt-dublin
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,468 ✭✭✭matt-dublin


    that doesn't actually matter, because you can get your bearing from the two points you can very easily come up with your bearing to any point based on directionaility, or by selecting another hole on your gps.

    i believe it is you who is missing the point not me.

    if you know the bearing of the direction you're playing and you know that the wind is directly playing into the face of a green from where you're standing, set your gps to it and you've got a bearing on the wind.
    so now you've a bearing on the wind, and on your hole and how the wind is playing across your hole which can give you a significant advantage.


  • #57
    IITYWYBMAD
    Registered Users Posts: 1,035 ✭✭✭IITYWYBMAD


    GreeBo wrote: »
    I cant see how they could argue that really. Any device that connects to anything is capable or providing directional (triangulation based) information, so doesnt that make them all illegal?
    Even golf specific GPS devices are triangulating so they can certainly tell which direction you are heading..i.e. a compass?
    They may not be reporting that to the user but I am pretty sure there is at least debugging code in there that is accessible somehow.
    They need to be way more specific before they make these sorts of call IMHO, lest it turn into a farce.

    The ruling is a farce. One could gauge wind direction by simply looking at the Sun to be honest, and that's not really my point. You can argue until you are blue in the face about the capability of x device versus y device.

    My point is that you have stated a case where a GUI official has approved you to play a GUI comp and use a Smartphone with an installed gyroscope for use in a competition. I have a number of questions for the GUI in this regard.

    1) What qualifies them to make this determination (for example what do they know about hidden software programs that a two year old could install on a phone and use nefariously)?
    2) Is it now the case that devices such as smartphones are to be allowed in competition on a 'case by case' basis?
    3) My understanding, after talking to GUI council for the past 12 months is that it is the native capability of the device that is the issue (forget about amateur engineers and laser pointing devices), and not the software installed at any point in time, has this now changed?

    I have 1 or 2 other points to clarify with them, but I won't bore you all with the technicalities. I've sent you a PM Greebo for further info.


  • #58
    IITYWYBMAD
    Registered Users Posts: 1,035 ✭✭✭IITYWYBMAD


    Villain wrote: »
    He said it didn't had a gyroscope.
    GreeBo wrote: »
    ....

    @matt-dublin
    I already said my phone does have a gyroscope :confused:

    What?


  • #59
    Villain
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,951 ✭✭✭✭Villain


    LOL sorry my bad :)

    That is quite odd then!


  • #60
    GreeBo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,253 ✭✭✭✭GreeBo


    I was thinking about this on my way into work today.
    RANDA wrote:
    A multi-functional device, such as a smartphone or PDA, may be used as a distance measuring device provided it contains a distance measuring application that meets all of the above limitations (i.e. it must measure distance only). In addition, when the distance measuring application is being used, there must be no other features or applications installed on the device that, if used, would be in breach of the Rules, whether or not they are actually used.

    The part bolded above, to me at least, completely goes against the spirit of the game. Golf is supposed to be self-governing. But now we are no longer trusting people to have non-conforming apps but not use them. So we are no longer trusting people to not cheat or break the rules.
    Having the ability to cheat if you want (with a SmartPhone) is now illegal. What makes smart phones so special? I have the ability to cheat in numerous other ways that RANDA trusts me to not do, yet with SmartPhones they have taken a stance and decided they dont trust me.
    Ridiculous really.
    :cool:


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  • #61
    matt-dublin
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,468 ✭✭✭matt-dublin


    Its to do with the older members i suspect, the board governing the rules would be quote old and likely cant use smartphones :P :P


  • #62
    IITYWYBMAD
    Registered Users Posts: 1,035 ✭✭✭IITYWYBMAD


    GreeBo wrote: »
    I was thinking about this on my way into work today.



    The part bolded above, to me at least, completely goes against the spirit of the game. Golf is supposed to be self-governing. But now we are no longer trusting people to have non-conforming apps but not use them. So we are no longer trusting people to not cheat or break the rules.
    Having the ability to cheat if you want (with a SmartPhone) is now illegal. What makes smart phones so special? I have the ability to cheat in numerous other ways that RANDA trusts me to not do, yet with SmartPhones they have taken a stance and decided they dont trust me.
    Ridiculous really.
    :cool:

    Yep, that's true, and that is exactly why this 'rule' is a farce. Having said that, the GUI's (and more so the R&A's) stance and handling of this has been amateur at the very best.

    Like I said, the issue has always been with the device, and not the software, and you being allowed use a smart-phone in a GUI comp, and being passed by a GUI official (irrespective of the software installed) goes against every aspect of the rule. I've PM'd you for more details, as said above.


  • #63
    GreeBo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,253 ✭✭✭✭GreeBo


    IITYWYBMAD wrote: »
    Like I said, the issue has always been with the device, and not the software

    I'm re-reading the flow chart again and the bit that makes all Smart Phones non-conforming (and imo all GPS device) is the wording of
    "Is this other information or measurement tool only accessible via an internet browser or shortcut to the internet"

    As far as I can make out my Smartphone is legal up until this point and its because the gyroscope & compass are capable of measuring this without the internet, even though once I have deleted the appropriate apps Im not able to access this information.

    I'm not sure why they have distinguished between "the internet" and "other features/applications".

    How can they trust me not to access the internet but they dont trust me not to access another app on the same phone?:confused:


  • #64
    IITYWYBMAD
    Registered Users Posts: 1,035 ✭✭✭IITYWYBMAD


    GreeBo wrote: »
    I'm re-reading the flow chart again and the bit that makes all Smart Phones non-conforming (and imo all GPS device) is the wording of
    "Is this other information or measurement tool only accessible via an internet browser or shortcut to the internet"
    ....
    You are making the argument that all GPS devices are 'potentially' illegal to use, when the R&A specifically say that any 'dedicated' laser or GPS device is legal. The question is not about how GPS devices gauge where the golfer is and where the hole is, as it does not come into question or up for scrutiny.

    The R&A state, that once a local rule is in effect and if the device is a dedicated DMD, well then there is no issue (assuming it's only distance).

    Where they have fudged the issue is with regards to Smart Phones. Forget about making the argument that GPS devices 'should' be illegal, because they won't be, as the R&A have specifically stated that they are not.

    The issue is with Smart Phones, and the device capability. Not the software.


  • #65
    BigChap1759
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,612 ✭✭✭BigChap1759


    Surely it would be simpler for the R&A to grow a pair and just make all non-dedicated DMDs illegal for competition play?


  • #66
    GreeBo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,253 ✭✭✭✭GreeBo


    BigChap1759 wrote: »
    Surely it would be simpler for the R&A to grow a pair and just make all non-dedicated DMDs illegal for competition play?

    Arent you then just moving the argument to what "dedicated" means?
    Dedicated to what? A Golf buddy isnt "dedicated" to telling distance, it also has maps of the green, bunkers etc, etc.

    How about a GPS device that also connects to the internet or has a compass? (Like those used in hiking/orienteering for example)

    They should just define what information its possible to use and what it isnt (like they already have!) and then its up to each golfer to obey these rules, in the same way it always was. Why they deemed it necessary to bring in these new rules is beyond me.


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  • #67
    charlieIRL
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 7,254 Mod ✭✭✭✭charlieIRL


    BigChap1759 wrote: »
    Surely it would be simpler for the R&A to grow a pair and just make all non-dedicated DMDs illegal for competition play?

    I fear that might be the only solution. If you restrict the use to dedicated devices then you are taking out the posibility of apps being used on a smartphone.


  • #68
    BigChap1759
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,612 ✭✭✭BigChap1759


    GreeBo wrote: »
    Arent you then just moving the argument to what "dedicated" means?
    Dedicated to what? A Golf buddy isnt "dedicated" to telling distance, it also has maps of the green, bunkers etc, etc.

    How about a GPS device that also connects to the internet or has a compass? (Like those used in hiking/orienteering for example)

    Dedicated in that it has been built with the sole intention of being a golf DMD as opposed to a multi-funtion device. Make the rule clear enough and then manufacturers will fall into line


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