If Catholic Church had a new leader...

Nothingbetter2d · 02-03-2012 11:05am

i shudder to think if clerical abuse was so widespread in the first world countries where we had stable governments and rule of law just how bad must it be in 3rd world countries that lack stable governments and are pretty much lawless?

talkinyite · 02-03-2012 11:05am

oh yeah? I don't know much about that stuff. Didn't know I couldn't be buried in a normal graveyard.

I told a lie actually I was in mass twice. The first time was after/for the Omagh bombing. That one was grand as far as I can remember.

KeithAFC · 02-03-2012 11:07am

COYW wrote: »

easisingles.

As someone looking into Catholicism from the outside, I still think that it is at the core of this country. People might not go to mass every Sunday but once a baptism, first communion, confirmation, marriage etc comes around, you can bet your bottom dollar that a heavy majority of people will be off to the RC church.

Mention the words "orange order" and all the RC-ism comes to the fore in Irish people and they become deeply offended.

This is true to a degree. But I think this is changing. The revolution against the Roman Catholic Church is under way and I think the tide is turning. No longer is the Irish Republic now being dictated to by Rome and controlled by Rome as much as it was.

RobbieTheRobber · 02-03-2012 11:10am

krudler wrote: »

thats essentially it though when you boil the christian belief down, that an all powerful space wizard inpregnated a woman through....we'll say magic, and created a son, who is also part of himself, to suffer and die for all mans sins, he also has a list of things he doesnt like, yet claims you have the free will to not do them,except if you dont you'll go to hell, because he loves you.

Yeah cool story bro, but I think the prequel will be better.
The one about the angel loved by god the most getting jealous and causing a war in heaven.
Dont think i'll watch the spin off where man in a floating zoo grows a beard though.

All the stories sound insane when compacted i just didnt think someone would use a ridiculous compacted versions to disprove anything.

RobbieTheRobber · 02-03-2012 11:11am

krudler wrote: »

I love how the church flip flops on stuff like that, fire and brimstone sermons but if you asked a priest to his face if unbaptised children go to hell they'd probably say no, which I think they do now despite making parents bury their kids in unmarked graves or on unconsecrated ground for decades before. Purgatory? yup, totally exists....oh wait, no thats not there anymore.

Yeah I would have hated to be going to the pearly gates the day that happened, talk about long queues as thousands of years of purgatory residents try to enter heaven! :eek:

mikemac1 · 02-03-2012 11:12am

krudler wrote: »

if you asked a priest to his face if unbaptised children go to hell they'd probably say no, which I think they do now

The old view changed a long time ago

And some offical statement/ruling was released back in the nineties

krudler wrote: »

Purgatory? yup, totally exists....oh wait, no thats not there anymore.

That was limbo, purgatory still exists

Nothingbetter2d · 02-03-2012 11:13am

KeithAFC wrote: »

This is true to a degree. But I think this is changing. The revolution against the Roman Catholic Church is under way and I think the tide is turning. No longer is the Irish Republic now being dictated to by Rome and controlled by Rome as much as it was.

your right now ireland is being dictated to by Germany

RobbieTheRobber · 02-03-2012 11:28am

KeithAFC wrote: »

This is the key quote here. The Roman Catholic Church is controlled and runned by criminals. The key to keeping the Roman Catholic Church going is based on corruption and bullsh*tting people. From the covering up of child abuse by the pope to feeding poor people in Africa who are in poverty lies about contraception.

The pope is the key to all this. For the Church to continue, they need to carry on the way they are doing. The thinking people in society will reject the Roman Catholic Church but they get by OK because sadly there is plenty of people in the world who believe the bullsh*t they spout.

Its not just the "Roman Catholic church" though is it keith?
The entire christian belief is being questioned in europe.

The chruch of england is in serious decline and turmoil over its direction, something like 25% in france now declare themselves athetists.

These men in robes and their unseen gods are no longer really relevant to those of us no matter what their core believe is.

I Heart Internet · 02-03-2012 2:36pm

1: Apologised unreservedly for the sins perpetrated by members of the Catholic Church in the past and to refuse to offer protection to said parties, help bring them to justice and to bring any future criminals to justice.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apologies_by_Pope_John_Paul_II
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/andrewbrown/2010/mar/20/religion-catholicism

2: Preached that tolerance and respect for one and other was the most important teaching of the church and that though some aspects of modern life went against the traditional teaching of the church, (such as homosexuality and contraception) it was no ones else’s place to judge these choices or people but the person in question and God.

This is pretty much the teaching of the Roman Catholic Church. Although it'll never be the "most important" - the golden commandment is to Love God and Love your neighbour. You hear that preached from the top down and in tens of thousands of churches year in, year out around the world.

3: Started selling off buildings and the huge collections of art owned by the church and funneling most of the funds directly into charity work for the poor in society and the rest to purchasing more meager functional properties.

You mean this kind of thing: http://www.cinews.ie/article.php?artid=6055

I'm sure I don't need to tell you about the many poverty, health, education, immigrant/emmigrant care, international development projects run by the diocesan churches or religious orders.

Church art is usually functional and does not, in general, command the huge prices achieved for non-religious works.

On buildings (and associated art) - while, you may not see it as such, the primary function of the physical church on earth is to convert souls and give glory to God. That's why churches are pretty....and the age of some of them means they cost a ****-load to maintain.

So I guess my take on your question OP is that this utopia you describe is by-and-large already happening or has always been the case. Sure, the church and most of its members could do better though.

To those who place themselves outside of the church, looking in who want a slightly less catholic, bit more cuddly church.......I'd say you need to rethink what "the church" is for.

Seachmall · 02-03-2012 2:40pm

krudler wrote: »

I love how the church flip flops on stuff like that, fire and brimstone sermons but if you asked a priest to his face if unbaptised children go to hell they'd probably say no, which I think they do now despite making parents bury their kids in unmarked graves or on unconsecrated ground for decades before. Purgatory? yup, totally exists....oh wait, no thats not there anymore.

It's hardly the Church's fault that God keeps changing the Heaven/Hell policy...

Ellis Dee · 02-03-2012 2:56pm

Doc wrote: »

Reading the other thread I wondered if the pope was to pass away and a new pope was chosen who attempted to modernise the church and did the following:

1: Apologised unreservedly for the sins perpetrated by members of the Catholic Church in the past and to refuse to offer protection to said parties, help bring them to justice and to bring any future criminals to justice.

2: Preached that tolerance and respect for one and other was the most important teaching of the church and that though some aspects of modern life went against the traditional teaching of the church, (such as homosexuality and contraception) it was no ones else’s place to judge these choices or people but the person in question and God.

3: Started selling off buildings and the huge collections of art owned by the church and funneling most of the funds directly into charity work for the poor in society and the rest to purchasing more meager functional properties.

Would your attitude toward the Catholic Church change for the better? I appreciate that the artiest or people of other religions are not going to suddenly believe in anything they didn’t before but would you have more respect for the religion or its practitioners?

Would agnostics or lapsed Catholics be tempted to return to the church?

Would you want the new head of the church to do more and if so what?

Even if the new Pope were to do all of those things, although I would greatly respect her for it (and hope she would last a good few years before some "good Catholic" bumped her off),:D I still wouldn't return to that or any other religion, because it would still be based on the God illusion, which is totally false.:):)

I Heart Internet · 02-03-2012 3:02pm

Ellis Dee wrote: »

Even if the new Pope were to do all of those things, although I would greatly respect her for it (and hope she would last a good few years before some "good Catholic" bumped her off),:D I still wouldn't return to that or any other religion, because it would still be based on the God illusion, which is totally false.:):)

I wish I had the strength of faith you have in your beliefs!

DEFTLEFTHAND · 02-03-2012 3:02pm

Whats needed is another reformer with the guts to take on the Curia and implement real change. Somebody young with a modern prospective on the world. Christianity needs to be dragged into the 21st century, at its very core the fundamentals are still good and worth preserving and teaching imo.

krudler · 02-03-2012 3:10pm

RobbieTheRobber wrote: »

Yeah cool story bro, but I think the prequel will be better.
The one about the angel loved by god the most getting jealous and causing a war in heaven.
Dont think i'll watch the spin off where man in a floating zoo grows a beard though.

All the stories sound insane when compacted i just didnt think someone would use a ridiculous compacted versions to disprove anything.

In a weird way Lucifer is the hero of the bible, standing up to god, letting people know they can think for themselves, plus hell looks way more fun than heaven, itll have better music and people like Bill Hicks and Christopher Hitchens will be there, plus all the gays, non stop mardi gras!

RobbieTheRobber · 02-03-2012 3:16pm

DEFTLEFTHAND wrote: »

Whats needed is another reformer with the guts to take on the Curia and implement real change. Somebody young with a modern prospective on the world. Christianity needs to be dragged into the 21st century, at its very core the fundamentals are still good and worth preserving and teaching imo.

When you say fundamentals what do you mean, things like charity and goodwill that sort of thing or are you taking about the Jesus\God virgin mother elements of christianity?

Paddycrumlinman · 02-03-2012 3:16pm

I'm amazed that people still listen to the Catholic Church let alone believe in their Bull$hit or the magic man up in the sky, Thread is a waste of 0's and 1's.

kylith · 02-03-2012 3:18pm

the RCC will never select a pope that will be inclusive, humble, modest and contrite for the church's wrongdoings. It will never happen. Every pope will be almost exactly the same as the last one.

amacachi · 02-03-2012 3:20pm

talkinyite wrote: »

Maybe for a wedding but not a funeral. The only time I ever went to a mass was after my mate had killed himself, the priest said he was going to hell.

Did they let him get buried in their graveyard? Not too long ago they wouldn't have.

Nothingbetter2d wrote: »

i shudder to think if clerical abuse was so widespread in the first world countries where we had stable governments and rule of law just how bad must it be in 3rd world countries that lack stable governments and are pretty much lawless?

I dunno, I don't see why it would've been worse back in the day. They could do what they wanted here with impunity so why head over there to do it? Probably mostly the decent ones went over.

Wattle · 02-03-2012 3:20pm

All masses should be like those in The Blues Brothers. This has to be priority number one.

kylith · 02-03-2012 3:22pm

amacachi wrote: »

Did they let him get buried in their graveyard? Not too long ago they wouldn't have.

I dunno, I don't see why it would've been worse back in the day. They could do what they wanted here with impunity so why head over there to do it? Probably mostly the decent ones went over.

Agreed. You may as well have a comfortable parochial house, with no heavy lifting or risk of malaria when you're abusing small children.

These days though...

I Heart Internet · 02-03-2012 3:25pm

DEFTLEFTHAND wrote: »

Whats needed is another reformer with the guts to take on the Curia and implement real change. Somebody young with a modern prospective on the world. Christianity needs to be dragged into the 21st century, at its very core the fundamentals are still good and worth preserving and teaching imo.

I see where you're coming from and kinda agree - Christianity must remain relevant for it to thrive. Every generation brings new challanges, discoveries, dilemmas, ideas. I very much agree that the fundamentals of Jesus Christ's teaching will never, ever get old. The naff saying "what would Jesus do?" is desperately uncool but is not far wrong - he said a lot of timeless, sensible stuff.

What always gets alarm bells ringing for me is when people talk of "young, modern, reform". The church's track record in this area is strewn with dodgy theology, nylon vestments, wooly jumpers, woeful "music", clown-masses and nuns in tie-dye tshirts.

Evolve based on truth - yes
Play acting at being trendy - no

DavyD_83 · 02-03-2012 3:25pm

If Brian Cowen changed his jumper would you think he was a competent and trustworthy politician?

I Heart Internet · 02-03-2012 3:29pm

kylith wrote: »

the RCC will never select a pope that will be inclusive, humble, modest and contrite for the church's wrongdoings. It will never happen. Every pope will be almost exactly the same as the last one. I agree with so I'm gonna draw the ridiculous, lazy conclusion that they're all the same.

Corrected for you:)

DEFTLEFTHAND · 02-03-2012 3:45pm

RobbieTheRobber wrote: »

When you say fundamentals what do you mean, things like charity and goodwill that sort of thing or are you taking about the Jesus\God virgin mother elements of christianity?

Yes things like charity and goodwill, having morals etc. Things that the R.C.C have lost sight of.

RichieC · 02-03-2012 3:48pm

wouldnt give a flying ****e. theyre still bull**** merchants.

Stark · 02-03-2012 3:54pm

Seachmall wrote: »

It's hardly the Church's fault that God keeps changing the Heaven/Hell policy...

You'd think being all powerful he might be able to maintain some sort of website/twitter account with the up-to-date information.

Ellis Dee · 02-03-2012 3:59pm

I Heart Internet wrote: »

I wish I had the strength of faith you have in your beliefs!

ROFL, it doesn't take any faith to not believe.:pac::pac::rolleyes::rolleyes:

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_NpQEWDE3XBg/TPnzTVXIG6I/AAAAAAAABo8/s-khQkfy2Ks/s1600/Atheism.png

kylith · 02-03-2012 4:02pm

I Heart Internet wrote: »

Corrected for you:)

I'm not a catholic, so I doubt I'd fully agree with any pope (or any other religious Head Honcho). I stand by my original statement though: the RCC will never select a pope that will move the RCC forward, they are too invested in their money grubbing bigotry.

I Heart Internet · 02-03-2012 4:02pm

Ellis Dee wrote: »

it doesn't take any faith to not believe.

Ah come on now, we could be here till the end of time arguing that one.

Ellis Dee · 02-03-2012 4:16pm

I Heart Internet wrote: »

Ah come on now, we could be here till the end of time arguing that one.

Only those who foolishly believe in things like the sky fairy and immaterial, undetectable entities like an immortal soul could possibly expect to be in a position to argue anything for that long. There will still be billions, trillions of years of time left for the universe after I (and you) shuffle off this mortal coil and no longer engage in activity of any kind.

:D:D

http://narvilkarmihir.files.wordpress.com/2010/11/i-am-an-atheist-the-burden-of-proof-lies-on-religion-700x570.jpg

I Heart Internet · 02-03-2012 4:23pm

Ellis Dee wrote: »

Only those who foolishly believe in things like the sky fairy and immaterial, undetectable entities like an immortal soul could possibly expect to be in a position to argue anything for that long. There will still be billions, trillions of years of time left for the universe after I (and you) shuffle off this mortal coil and no longer engage in activity of any kind. :D:D

http://narvilkarmihir.files.wordpress.com/2010/11/i-am-an-atheist-the-burden-of-proof-lies-on-religion-700x570.jpg

Your confidence in your belief borders on arrogance. I'm sure I'm not the first to tell you that.

Also......where can I sign up for some of your snazzy atheism credo cards?

Seachmall · 02-03-2012 4:28pm

I Heart Internet wrote: »

Your confidence in your belief borders on arrogance. I'm sure I'm not the first to tell you that.

The logic fail here is astounding, and unfortunately all too common.

I Heart Internet · 02-03-2012 4:31pm

Seachmall wrote: »

The logic fail here is astounding, and unfortunately all too common.

Go on....please enlighten me.

Seachmall · 02-03-2012 4:33pm

I Heart Internet wrote: »

Go on....please enlighten me.

The rejection of a belief is not a belief.

joseph brand · 02-03-2012 4:44pm

I Heart Internet wrote: »

Go on....please enlighten me.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_pill_and_blue_pill

If you become enlightened (red pill), there's NO going back. I reckon you would choose the blue pill and still 'believe' because of your NEED to believe.

@OP: Unless the church had an Atheist pope, (impossible) a new pope will make zero difference. He will still read from the same dusty old book written by goat herders.

I Heart Internet · 02-03-2012 4:53pm

Seachmall wrote: »

The rejection of a belief is not a belief.

That's correct. It's not Ellis Dee's rejection of my belief (or anyone else's) that I was commenting on. It was Ellis Dee's belief in a Godless universe that I was commenting on.

I Heart Internet · 02-03-2012 4:57pm

joseph brand wrote: »

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_pill_and_blue_pill

If you become enlightened (red pill), there's NO going back. I reckon you would choose the blue pill and still 'believe' because of your NEED to believe.

NO going back huh? Wait....do you reckon or believe?

Seachmall · 02-03-2012 5:09pm

I Heart Internet wrote: »

That's correct. It's not Ellis Dee's rejection of my belief (or anyone else's) that I was commenting on. It was Ellis Dee's belief in a Godless universe that I was commenting on.

You say it's correct then contradict yourself.

The idea that one has or needs a belief in no God is a myth.

A "Godless universe" is a logical starting point*. Logical starting points don't require belief. Assertions contrary to that starting point require belief.

That starting point can change depending on arguments or evidence presented but as of now the "Godless universe" is the starting point.

*It's the starting point because it does not make any assertions that conflict with known truths, it does not make any unnecessary assertions, etc.

I Heart Internet · 02-03-2012 5:21pm

Seachmall wrote: »

A "Godless universe" is a logical starting point*. Logical starting points don't require belief. Assertions contrary to that starting point require belief.

That starting point can change depending on arguments or evidence presented but as of now the "Godless universe" is the starting point.

*It's the starting point because it does not make any positive assertions, require any arguments etc.

Your definition of a starting point that does not "require any arguments" is based on your own viewpoint and what does and does not require arguments.

I could likewise say that "the universe began, something caused it to begin, that does not require any arguments".

St.Spodo · 02-03-2012 5:26pm

I'd welcome such changes as an outsider but it wouldn't strengthen the case that there's a god. As such, I'd still turn a blind eye to the church.

Seachmall · 02-03-2012 5:26pm

I Heart Internet wrote: »

Your definition of a starting point that does not "require any arguments" is based on your own viewpoint and what does and does not require arguments.

My definition of a starting point is based on the concepts of Burden of Proof and Occam's Razor.

BlackCatMeoww · 03-03-2012 12:17am

Why do non-catholics have such a fascination with Church leadership? I wonder do ye have a fascination with what goes on down in your local golf club?

BlackCatMeoww · 03-03-2012 12:21am

Stark wrote: »

Seachmall wrote: »

It's hardly the Church's fault that God keeps changing the Heaven/Hell policy...

You'd think being all powerful he might be able to maintain some sort of website/twitter account with the up-to-date information.

Evidently you have never heard of the Pope's YouTube channel. Plenty of space for anti-catholic rhetoric in the comments.

Sauve · 03-03-2012 12:54am

BlackCatMeoww wrote: »

Why do non-catholics have such a fascination with Church leadership? I wonder do ye have a fascination with what goes on down in your local golf club?

I thin the fascination (for me anyway) comes from the damage that the church has done to the community as a whole, not just their own members. I was a member, most of my family and friends still are, so tht's where my interest comes from.

Seachmall · 03-03-2012 1:29am

BlackCatMeoww wrote: »

Why do non-catholics have such a fascination with Church leadership? I wonder do ye have a fascination with what goes on down in your local golf club?

My local golf club doesn't generally preach moral absolutes which are detrimental to society to a large group of willing listeners.

Sauve · 03-03-2012 1:33am

Seachmall wrote: »

My local golf club doesn't generally preach moral absolutes which are detrimental to society to a large group of willing listeners.

Heh. Golf clubs aren't the best example in fairness

Father Damo · 03-03-2012 1:35am

talkinyite wrote: »

Maybe for a wedding but not a funeral. The only time I ever went to a mass was after my mate had killed himself, the priest said he was going to hell.

I doubt this highly.

Father Damo · 03-03-2012 1:36am

Seachmall wrote: »

My local golf club doesn't generally preach moral absolutes which are detrimental to society to a large group of willing listeners.

In what country? The church hsnt had any influence on anyone in this country in 20 years.

Sauve · 03-03-2012 1:40am

Father Damo wrote: »

In what country? The church hsnt had any influence on anyone in this country in 20 years.

Ah it has...... maybe not my generation (I'm 30), but definitely the older generations.
They also still run the majority of primary schools. Massive influence there....

krudler · 03-03-2012 1:42am

Father Damo wrote: »

In what country? The church hsnt had any influence on anyone in this country in 20 years.

what about people making their communions, baptising their kids, etc etc?

If Catholic Church had a new leader...

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