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Puppy spay dilemma
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28-10-2014 4:49am#1Okay, so we adopted our bitch from a well-known rescue 6 weeks ago. They took us around their puppy wing, as none of the adult dogs they had at the time suited our requirements, and we just fell in love with Nyssa right away. It was the next day when we filled out their forms with them, and became aware that they have a requirement that their dogs must be neutered at six months.
That didn't sit well with me, and I tried to argue with them, that best practice nowadays suggests later neutering is preferable, but they stopped me right there, basically insisting that they cannot trust adopters to be having sexually mature dogs, and not further exacerbate the problem of too many unwanted dogs around the country. I can see their point, as far as it goes, but clearly I would not be letting her loose in season, and am now really cut up by the idea that either her health or temperament could be ruined by too early neutering.
Yes, I can see you all thinking, well then I shouldn't have adopted from this rescue! Perhaps you're right. But now I have, and am caught in the dilemma. Her spay is booked in their centre in December, but it does say on there to please let them know if that doesn't suit, so they can book another dog in for the appointment.
So should I just cancel, and field calls from them for the next few months, assuring them I will be doing it soon, and that no, Nyssa has not been in a situation where she could get impregnated? Should I try to get my own vet to basically perjure himself, and pretend to them that he has done it? Or should I just suck it up, get her done in December, and hope for the best?
Obviously I do feel really stupid now. I told myself at the time that it would be ok. Lola was done early, but then, she did end up a somewhat nervous dog in certain ways. My aunt assures me her wonderful dog was done at 6 months too, but then she is quite small, and these things tend to be more so with bigger dogs. I just really do want to do the best for Nyssa, but am not terribly keen on breaking a promise, or ticking off the rescue either.
Any advice very much appreciated
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Okay, so we adopted our bitch from a well-known rescue 6 weeks ago. They took us around their puppy wing, as none of the adult dogs they had at the time suited our requirements, and we just fell in love with Nyssa right away. It was the next day when we filled out their forms with them, and became aware that they have a requirement that their dogs must be neutered at six months.
That didn't sit well with me, and I tried to argue with them, that best practice nowadays suggests later neutering is preferable, but they stopped me right there, basically insisting that they cannot trust adopters to be having sexually mature dogs, and not further exacerbate the problem of too many unwanted dogs around the country. I can see their point, as far as it goes, but clearly I would not be letting her loose in season, and am now really cut up by the idea that either her health or temperament could be ruined by too early neutering.
Yes, I can see you all thinking, well then I shouldn't have adopted from this rescue! Perhaps you're right. But now I have, and am caught in the dilemma. Her spay is booked in their centre in December, but it does say on there to please let them know if that doesn't suit, so they can book another dog in for the appointment.
So should I just cancel, and field calls from them for the next few months, assuring them I will be doing it soon, and that no, Nyssa has not been in a situation where she could get impregnated? Should I try to get my own vet to basically perjure himself, and pretend to them that he has done it? Or should I just suck it up, get her done in December, and hope for the best?
Obviously I do feel really stupid now. I told myself at the time that it would be ok. Lola was done early, but then, she did end up a somewhat nervous dog in certain ways. My aunt assures me her wonderful dog was done at 6 months too, but then she is quite small, and these things tend to be more so with bigger dogs. I just really do want to do the best for Nyssa, but am not terribly keen on breaking a promise, or ticking off the rescue either.
Any advice very much appreciated
The vet was only telling my dad that bigger dogs should not be speyed at 6 months. I don't know anything about it tbh. My 2 girls were done at 6 months, they are rescues too but that was 6 and 7 years ago.
I can see where the rescue are coming from as they are afraid that there could be an accident. I don't foster anymore but I would still say they all go by the same rules with regard to neutering.0 -
You could..
1 - tell them the truth - that you're waiting to minimise health/behavioural issues further down the line
2 - tell them you'll be taking her to your own vet because it's more convenient/you'd prefer your own trusted vet to carry out the procedure. I know somebody who adopted from the same rescue (well I'm assuming it's the same rescue
) who went to our vets as it's closer to them and they trusted the vet there more. I myself cancelled Lucy's keyhole spay at a different vet 50 mins away when I decided I wanted it to be done by my vet for the same reasons - she's going in on Friday and is 17 months now having had her first heat at 13 months.
3 - lie and call them up a couple of weeks before the appointment saying she's already gone into heat meaning she won't be able to get spayed for a few months - although some vets will spay 4 weeks after a heat (my vet wanted to wait 3 months)
What are they going to do about it at the end of the day anyways?0 -
If it is something you do plan on doing and are leaving it for a more appropriate time with regards to Nyssa's health, why not book the procedure with your own vet at a date that agrees with her age, and then have that vet release that information to the rescue in question as a show of faith.
Granted you could just not show up for it, but then again you could do the same with them so it matters not either way. Showing them that it is booked, maybe even with a small deposit, might indicate that you have strong reasons for waiting, but still understand the necessity of getting it done.
As you said though, you can see where they are coming from. All too often someone walks in to adopt a pup and insist that they will make sure he/she doesn't get loose and there will never be a pregnancy and even go so far as to say they have plenty of experience with bitches.
And all too often they turn back into rescue barely a year old with their litter of puppies in tow
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How old is Nyssa? To be honest I'm amazed they are rehoming an un-spayed pup at all.
Every rescue I have ever dealt with will rehome an un-neutered puppy, either with a spay voucher, a contracted promise to neuter at 6 months, or even both. Rescues would have died out long, long ago if they kept all the unwanted puppies until they were old enough to be neutered 0 -
ShaShaBear wrote: »Every rescue I have ever dealt with will rehome an un-neutered puppy, either with a spay voucher, a contracted promise to neuter at 6 months, or even both. Rescues would have died out long, long ago if they kept all the unwanted puppies until they were old enough to be neutered
Our local rescue neuters puppies at 12-16wks, before rehoming.
Having been the person ringing up the adopters when it was time to neuter and finding them stalling or resistant, I fully endorse their policy!0 -
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IActually it's funny how this issue never comes up in relation to cats? .
Maybe because they're all around the same size? My vet advised me to wait but I'd already made my decision anyway. She put it that a spay/neuter would affect growth plate closure - having been there with Bailey (surgically straightened legs) I wasn't going to go there again. There's loads of evidence to wait for larger breeds for joint issue prevention, bone cancer, cruciate injuries etc. I was going to spay Lucy early until I did my research and waited 0 -
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Yes but so far all we have are nearly all atomised, small-scale studies.
My collie was spayed at ten months, because she didn't come into rescue until eight or nine months.
She later ruptured a cruciate ligament when she was six and sadly, at just nine years old, haemangiosarcoma took her life.
Do I think either condition relates back to being spayed at ten months, or do I wish she hadn't been spayed at all? No.0 -
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Oh, ye all are making this very complicated, with ye're different opinions and all
Boomerang, you almost have me swayed in favour of sucking it up and going along with the policy I agreed to: I know she will recover quickly and everything, she is definitely a tough, all-weather, take-things-in-her-stride sort of pup anyway.
She is just as definitely not planning to be a small dog either though. She is 5 months old and just over 16 kgs. Not a giant by any means, but I'd say planning to be in the 25-30 kg range. As for breed, her mother was definitely a GSD cross. Father unknown, but it sure looks like there is both collie and husky in her as well.
So definitely going to be a highly active person, and I do not want to be courting difficulties with bone growth etc, if that would be a risk. I will go research whether there is any suggestion of such findings for the breeds concerned, which would of course give rise to a lot more pondering, for which I have almost another 2 months pondering time, as her neuter date is fairly late in December.
I'm really leaning towards going ahead with it now, though. The 1 thing I most definitely do not want is to have her seized from me for breach of contract by said rescue, as Toulouse seems to be suggesting could be possible! :eek:
Edited to add: To answer the question, Boomerang, she was 15 weeks when we adopted her, and this rescue does routinely give out pups at around 10-12 weeks, always with the same contract, and date ready-booked with their own vet to have the spay done.
And I do know, both from trying to discuss it with them at the time, and from somebody else's very recent experience with this rescue, over a completely different issue, that they are not going to be amenable to any sort of discussion, or "indications of good will" regarding this issue. Their policies are their policies, end of discussion.
They are a good rescue in so many ways, but I know I'll never be going back to them again. I can now see so much better the virtues of smaller rescues, the best ones at least. In that there can be flexibility, and some consideration of differences between people. These guys just judge everybody and every situation by such rigid rules, and there are a variety of different things they do get wrong, just by forcing themselves to do that.0 -
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As for breed, her mother was definitely a GSD cross. Father unknown, but it sure looks like there is both collie and husky in her as well.
OMG ferretone, she sounds DIVINE! Where are the photos?
I find with the rescues that don't homecheck, they tend to be a lot more inflexible on things like the adoption fee for example, because their policies are the only thing they have to go on in judging whether or not they'll home a dog (or cat) with you. Does that make sense?
My collie x GSD was spayed at six months. Never had any ortho issues at all.
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This rescue sure as damn does home-check It's just so darned big, and old (though not so very long in this country), and well-established, that their policies and procedures seem to loom larger in their minds than the actual dogs or especially people in some particulars. And sometimes because of that, the very best for everyone concerned seems to me to get a little lost in the middle of all that.
There is one pic of Nyssa in the Chillout Zone here, but you're right, I do seriously have to get the finger out and get some more organised. I'm starting to think I will really have to get a smartphone soon, as things have been so complicated lately that it's hard to get around to things with the good camera, and both our ancient phones are pretty rubbish from that point of view! You're also right that she is blooming gorgeous, such a real dog-dog, like what a 6-year-old would draw for a picture of a dog if their family didn't have some particular breed of one at home :P0 -
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He was never a social butterfly or very playful with other dogs, but he would manoeuvre around other dogs he met without us noticing any discomfort. He'd just ignore them and keep doing his own thing, which was usually casing the area with his nose to find more and more spots to wee on. (He's always been VERY driven to cock his leg and kick up the grass.) I had no problem turning him out into the agility ring at Alison's for example, when we were on a break from classes.
Since neutering, when he sees/meets a new dog he is barky and his body language is a bit fearful. It definitely seems to tie in with castration because my brother picked up on it in the weeks after the op.0 -
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I have a very fearful male dog who isn't neutered. I'm unsure about getting him done because he is so fearful already.. but then I also wonder might it take the "edge" off him in those situations and he might get a bit calmer? I don't know... I'm torn.
I don't think being spayed made any difference to my female whatsoever but she was 2+ by then. I think she has calmed a bit over time but that's just age.
Spyaing shouldn't make much of a difference to the vast majority of females, it's only those who had a bit of an inkling of the unwanted behaviour prior to spaying that there's a potential problem with
As for your male, it is a tough call. Whilst neutering a nervy, shy male can deprive him of confidence-boosting testosterone, the last thing you want to do with a nervy, shy dog is give them any opportunity to breed, as fearfulness is the most genetically heritable behavioural trait (I'm not for a second suggesting that you'd let your dog breed Tea Tree, this is just a general observation!)
With your male, what you *could* do is try chemical castration first, just to see what happens, although it is possible that whilst dogs can improve when chemically castrated, the same effect isn't as dramatic when the dog is properly castrated... go figure!
Whilst castration *shouldn't* hugely improve the edgy part of his behaviour, you just never know. Some people find that their dogs become very chilled towards things that castration should have no effect on!0 -
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My vets are keen to do a full spay any time soon since my dog is 6 months old. I'm wondering about finding a vet who will just remove her uterus (partial spay). Have any of you requested this for your dog or explored the pros and cons of such a scenario?
Why? I'm not getting on your case, just interested!
The cons of spaying a bitch are considerably less than the pros, particularly if you let her mature physically (although waiting and allowing her to have heats has its own risks too.. you can't win, can you?!)
If you leave the ovaries in, obviously you'll still get her coming into heat, bleeding, unwanted male attention, potential mating, and potential false pregnancies. No actual pregnancy obviously, but for me at least, leaving the ovaries in negates a huge amount of the positives of spaying!0 -
Why? I'm not getting on your case, just interested!
The cons of spaying a bitch are considerably less than the pros, particularly if you let her mature physically (although waiting and allowing her to have heats has its own risks too.. you can't win, can you?!)
If you leave the ovaries in, obviously you'll still get her coming into heat, bleeding, unwanted male attention, potential mating, and potential false pregnancies. No actual pregnancy obviously, but for me at least, leaving the ovaries in negates a huge amount of the positives of spaying!
If they remove the uterus (& I think they usually take the cervix too), there's minimal discharge in season from what I can find out. Pyometra and other uterine problems wouldn't be an issue and nor would pregnancy. False pregnancy - would that be possible if her uterus was gone? The only issue might be general 'heat' lovieness and attraction to males.
The whole shebang approach seems somewhat old-fashioned and has been entirely discontinued in some countries. Some vets advocate removal of only the ovaries, others removal of only the uterus and other again removal of uterus, cervix, horns of the uterus (fallopian tubes?) and the left ovary. I suppose it's like having too long a menu; too much choice leads to debate and confusion at the veterinarians as well as too many procedures to teach in vet college.
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If they remove the uterus (& I think they usually take the cervix too), there's minimal discharge in season from what I can find out. Pyometra and other uterine problems wouldn't be an issue and nor would pregnancy. False pregnancy - would that be possible if her uterus was gone? The only issue might be general 'heat' lovieness and attraction to males.
The whole shebang approach seems somewhat old-fashioned and has been entirely discontinued in some countries. Some vets advocate removal of only the ovaries, others removal of only the uterus and other again removal of uterus, cervix, horns of the uterus (fallopian tubes?) and the left ovary. I suppose it's like having too long a menu; too much choice leads to debate and confusion at the veterinarians as well as too many procedures to teach in vet college.
I asked my vet about this recently and he said that in general some vets find it hard to get right down to the cervis to remove the uterus, sometime they leave behind a bit which with the ovaries still intact can cause stump pyometra. And that mammary gland tumors are still a big issue when leaving behind the ovaries too.
It's a tough one decided what is best alright!!0 -
fiounnalbe wrote: »I asked my vet about this recently and he said that in general some vets find it hard to get right down to the cervis to remove the uterus, sometime they leave behind a bit which with the ovaries still intact can cause stump pyometra. And that mammary gland tumors are still a big issue when leaving behind the ovaries too.
It's a tough one decided what is best alright!!
Yes, stump pyometra is quite a risk alright, and I have heard of quite a few spayed bitches who still show all the signs of heat, bloody discharge and all, the suspicion being that a bit of ovary was left behind.
@ Dubl07, I'm afraid as long as there are ovaries, there's a risk of phantom pregnancy
But yeah, hard to know what the right thing to do is, pros and cons on all sides! Either way, I think it's hard to argue with an informed and responsible decision that doesn't go out of its way to have serious implications for the dog's health 0 -
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Hmmm...
I wonder if it'd help to try the range of anxiety-reducing products?
Would he allow you to put a body wrap on him?
And would you think about trying on of the non-prescription nutraceutical products, like Zylkene or Calmex? Both products contain proteins that are known to reduce anxiety levels, and I think well worth trying with a dog like yours who is soscared. Poor lad.
And of course, there's Adaptil too, as a collar, spray or diffuser.
Maybe you've tried these already? But if not, I'd certainly be trying them before going for castration 0 -
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But then do spay, there is no advantage in having puppies that you need to re home, even if you get a few bob, because you don't know the kind of person they will go to. And don't underestimate how quickly and opportunistically the act of procreation can happen in dogs.
Lordy Murray007, I think you're preaching to the converted here!0 -
Hmmm...
I wonder if it'd help to try the range of anxiety-reducing products?
Would he allow you to put a body wrap on him?
And would you think about trying on of the non-prescription nutraceutical products, like Zylkene or Calmex? Both products contain proteins that are known to reduce anxiety levels, and I think well worth trying with a dog like yours who is soscared. Poor lad.
And of course, there's Adaptil too, as a collar, spray or diffuser.
Maybe you've tried these already? But if not, I'd certainly be trying them before going for castration
poor lad indeed he's such a lovely sweet little mouse too:o He's also a wonderful sight to behold running free in the woods when there are no scary people around. This is the dog I've written about before who also fly bites and paw licks. Have only tried Kalm Aid but am open to anything that might help him. Finances are an issue just now but should improve in the new year so a lot ofstuff is being put on hold but since I do have to take him to the vet anyway I'll ask about zylkene etc.
And so sorry OP for the thread hijack 0 -
Kalm Aid is herbal, whereas Zylkene and Calmex are protein-based... There's stronge evidence that the proteins can be almost as effective at reducing anxiety as anti-anxiety drugs are, but without the side effects! Whilst herbal stuff might help a bit, it hasn't anywhere near the potential punch as the proteins.
If I were going for one over the other, as in Zylkene vs Calmex, I think I'd opt for the latter, as there's more evidence in support of it 0 -
Lordy Murray007, I think you're preaching to the converted here!
It is easy to put these things on the long finger, I am doing it myself at the moment with a rescue cat we discovered half dead in forestry near us. I loath to put her though the op just as she has started to look really healthy and has started to trust people.
I am sorry you feel it's preaching!0 -
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