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33 years in Prison for helping to find Bin Laden
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Which children were injured?
The ones who didn't get the full vaccine, lives are in danger, as they think they were vaccinated. I posted a link earlier about that. BTW, I never used the word injured, but the fact remains they put the lives of children in danger.
Then, there is the damage that has been done to such programs, which will result in more harm to children.
Being vaccinated against hep b doesn't mean you can go around playing with hepatitis. At worst they are in exactly the same place they were before he came along.
My understanding though is that the vaccinations were real and some people did get properly vaccinated but when the truth behind the program got out then it had to be discontinued so people in the middle of their treatment lost out.0 -
Unavailable for Comment wrote: »Is there any proof that anybody was hurt in any way? If you could give a link to prove he gave inadequate vaccines?
According to the Washington Post he was traveling door to door offering to administer a hepatitis B vaccination. Although the vaccination was real it takes three doses to be effective. He only administered one meaning that the people he treated are not protected. The dangers from that are straightforward.
Added to that and far and away more reprehensible is that there is already an incredible amount of fear and mistrust in Pakistan about NGO vaccination programmes. Many people don't take part in them as they believe they are part of a secret Western agenda. Obviously for the many Western NGO staff in Pakistan and Afghanistan, their work has just become more difficult, perhaps insurmountably so. Who knows how many casualties will arise from the backlash against vaccinations?
And for what? These DNA samples that were taken were solely used to identify a body. Could they not have been harvested from his relatives during the assault or even taken voluntarily from one of Bin Laden's many, many blood relatives knocking around Europe?
The ends did not quite justify the means.
For further reading check out Maryn McKenna's excellent piece in Wired as well as Guardian piece that broke it. Google is your friend here.
This method was highlighted in a recent NCIS episode. The purpose of the DNA testing was to build up a road map of relatives and persons of interest, not just to search for one person or identify his body afterwards.0 -
This method was highlighted in a recent NCIS episode. The purpose of the DNA testing was to build up a road map of relatives and persons of interest, not just to search for one person or identify his body afterwards.
While I won't comment on the fictional plot of an NCIS episode, your assertion only makes sense if the Bin Laden family has a genetic predisposition for terrorism. Otherwise why is their familial DNA important? As there are no other Bin Laden family members on the US's watch list we can agree that they don't.
Therefore the DNA was collected for some other reason. The only plausible one being to positively identify Osama Bin Laden. As the vaccination program was a failure, as evidenced by the US not rewarding the doctor for his fake immunisation wheeze and yet Bin Laden's compound was still raided we can deduce that the DNA was not necessary pre mortem but rather to identify the body.
There were obviously far simpler ways of obtaining the necessary DNA then what they chose. Ones that didn't endanger local vaccination programs for example.0 -
Being vaccinated against hep b doesn't mean you can go around playing with hepatitis. At worst they are in exactly the same place they were before he came along.
No, the difference is that some people taught they were vacinated, and it also hurts other such programs.My understanding though is that the vaccinations were real and some people did get properly vaccinated but when the truth behind the program got out then it had to be discontinued so people in the middle of their treatment lost out.
You would be wrong. They never bothered going back. I posted a link earlier in regard to exactly what these idiots did. The program was a fake from the get go.
So the CIA and the so called "Doctor" put children in danger, by not giving them the full vaccine and they did it on purpose, and what they did will hurt future programs, as people will now be even more skeptical of such programs. What they did was morally repugnant, and quite frankly indefensible. There is no excuse for what they did.
Also, here is Doctors without border condeming the CIA for the damage they have done:
CIA's fake vaccination programme criticised by Médecins Sans Frontières0 -
Unavailable for Comment wrote: »While I won't comment on the fictional plot of an NCIS episode, your assertion only makes sense if the Bin Laden family has a genetic predisposition for terrorism. Otherwise why is their familial DNA important? As there are no other Bin Laden family members on the US's watch list we can agree that they don't.
Therefore the DNA was collected for some other reason. The only plausible one being to positively identify Osama Bin Laden. As the vaccination program was a failure, as evidenced by the US not rewarding the doctor for his fake immunisation wheeze and yet Bin Laden's compound was still raided we can deduce that the DNA was not necessary pre mortem but rather to identify the body.
There were obviously far simpler ways of obtaining the necessary DNA then what they chose. Ones that didn't endanger local vaccination programs for example.
You are only focused on Bin Laden. The CIA don't think so small. A DNA database of all the people who lived in and around Bin Laden would be very useful to them, especially if you consider the fact that he likely had sympathisers and other members of Al Queda near him.No, the difference is that some people taught they were vacinated, and it also hurts other such programs.
You would be wrong. They never bothered going back. I posted a link earlier in regard to exactly what these idiots did. The program was a fake from the get go.
So the CIA and the so called "Doctor" put children in danger, by not giving them the full vaccine and they did it on purpose, and what they did will hurt future programs, as people will now be even more skeptical of such programs. What they did was morally repugnant, and quite frankly indefensible. There is no excuse for what they did.
Also, here is Doctors without border condeming the CIA for the damage they have done:
CIA's fake vaccination programme criticised by Médecins Sans Frontières
Yes I don't doubt it damages other programs but I stand by the assertion that not administering a proper vaccine endangers anyone. They were in that danger already. The doctor may not have aided them but neither did he put them in any greater danger.
Also, if it was fake from the get go does that mean the vacine wasn't real? If they had no intention of going back then I can't see why they would bother to use the proper vacine.0 -
Yes I don't doubt it damages other programs but I stand by the assertion that not administering a proper vaccine endangers anyone. They were in that danger already. The doctor may not have aided them but neither did he put them in any greater danger.
Except that they taught they were vaccinated, and if another proper program came along, they wouldn't go get vaccinated again, as they taught they were vaccinated. So yes, they did potentially harm children. Then there is the morality of getting access to the DNA of children under false pretenses, and various other moral issues.Also, if it was fake from the get go does that mean the vacine wasn't real? If they had no intention of going back then I can't see why they would bother to use the proper vacine.
Except that it was clearly shown they did not go back, and that there was no actual intention of going back. The article I linked even showed that the US lied about it as well:On Thursday night, a senior US government official defended the practice, saying it had been intended as "an actual vaccination campaign conducted by real medical professionals". He said the team was supposed to deliver the full course of three vaccinations to those treated in Abbottabad.
The official, who spoke on condition of anonymity, added: "And it's not as if this kind of campaign is something the CIA runs every day."
However, on the ground in Abbottabad the Guardian discovered that while the vaccine doses themselves were genuine, the medical professionals involved were not following procedures. In an area called Nawa Sher, they did not return a month after the first dose to provide the required second batch. Instead, according to local officials and residents, the team moved on, in April this year, to Bilal Town, the suburb where Bin Laden lived.
So it very clear, they didn't bother going back, and this unamed US official also lied about the whole thing as well. Clearly you didn't read the link and are just defending this morally repugnant program.
What was done was clearly indefensible and getting Bin Laden is no excuse for what CIA and this "Doctor" did. The fact that the US wants this man released, clearly show they have no issues with what they did, which shows that the US really doesn't care what damage it does, in going after terrorists. Which btw isn't all that different to how the terrorists they are after justify there own actions. As I said earlier the lives of Pakistani children have little value for American's, and you can be sure that people in that part of the world will remember what was done to there children.
What the CIA did will cause a great deal of damage to future vaccination programs, and may even put medical professionals in danger as well, which is btw what was said by Doctors without Borders.0 -
You are only focused on Bin Laden. The CIA don't think so small. A DNA database of all the people who lived in and around Bin Laden would be very useful to them, especially if you consider the fact that he likely had sympathisers and other members of Al Queda near him.
Really? Well let's think about that.
The CIA knew that the compound didn't have a transient population and that the only person who left regularly was al Kuwaiti. They also knew that other people didn't visit the compound. Therefore, if your theory is correct, the CIA were interested enough in the current occupants of the compound to authorise collection of their DNA profiles.
Why then were the American seals given amended rules of engagement allowing them to kill anyone who got in their way whether or not they showed a credible threat? Obviously the CIA didn't think the residents were that high value to not even make an attempt to capture them. Five people were killed that night. Only one was armed.
Or perhaps you think the DNA collection was to ensure they killed the right Osama? Well, despite what Gibbs and the rest of the NCIS team would have you believe, DNA is useless without something to compare it to. So you have to wonder what DNA evidence the Americans used to positively ID the corpse. Did they do a quick swab of the other residents of the house while holding them at gun point? Nope. They compared his DNA to samples collected from his sister who had died of brain cancer several years beforehand while in Boston and whose remains had been subpoenaed and stored by the American authorities.
Really there was no point to such a dangerous operation unless, well I dunno but maybe the CIA loves polio and doesn't want to see it eradicated.Yes I don't doubt it damages other programs
You may not doubt it but you don't seem to understand that the damage to other programs is what's dangerous.but I stand by the assertion that not administering a proper vaccine endangers anyone. They were in that danger already. The doctor may not have aided them but neither did he put them in any greater danger.
Obviously if a person believes they are vaccinated to a certain threat they become less aware of that threat. That's just common sense.Also, if it was fake from the get go does that mean the vacine wasn't real? If they had no intention of going back then I can't see why they would bother to use the proper vacine.
It takes three genuine doses to become vaccinated. They only administered one. Therefore it doesn't matter if it was genuine or not. It wouldn't work0 -
Except that they taught they were vaccinated, and if another proper program came along, they wouldn't go get vaccinated again, as they taught they were vaccinated. So yes, they did potentially harm children. Then there is the morality of getting access to the DNA of children under false pretenses, and various other moral issues.
There is nothing to suggest they thought they were fully vaccinated. The claim is that the vaccination team did not return to finish the vaccine. I hhaven't see anything to suggest that they told the population they were fully vaccinated. If you have a quote that shows otherwise then I'll gladly read it. So if the population knew they were not treated fully then they would indeed take the vaccine if it came around again. But they wouldn't need to anyway. They don't need the full course again. All they need is the countinuation of the old one anyway.Except that it was clearly shown they did not go back, and that there was no actual intention of going back. The article I linked even showed that the US lied about it as well:
No it doesn't. It says it was meant as a full course but the team moved on. It doesn't say they weren't coming back. The second dose does not have to be administered exactly one month later. It has to be administered at least one month after. But obviously once the story broke about the doctors DNA program it made it impossible for them to return.So it very clear, they didn't bother going back, and this unamed US official also lied about the whole thing as well. Clearly you didn't read the link and are just defending this morally repugnant program.
What was done was clearly indefensible and getting Bin Laden is no excuse for what CIA and this "Doctor" did. The fact that the US wants this man released, clearly show they have no issues with what they did, which shows that the US really doesn't care what damage it does, in going after terrorists. Which btw isn't all that different to how the terrorists they are after justify there own actions. As I said earlier the lives of Pakistani children have little value for American's, and you can be sure that people in that part of the world will remember what was done to there children.
What the CIA did will cause a great deal of damage to future vaccination programs, and may even put medical professionals in danger as well, which is btw what was said by Doctors without Borders.
I'm not defending it. I don't care enough about it to feel the need to defend it. I just dislike people who try to get their point across with exaggeration and bull**** like some Helen Lovejoy personification. This "endangering the children" nonsense is exactly that. The children are no worse of than they were before.0 -
There is nothing to suggest they thought they were fully vaccinated. The claim is that the vaccination team did not return to finish the vaccine. I haven't see anything to suggest that they told the population they were fully vaccinated.
If you have a quote that shows otherwise then I'll gladly read it.
The fact that the families vaccinated, didn't bring up the issue themselves, show that they taught there children were vaccinated. They surely would have complained about the lack of a follow up.So if the population knew they were not treated fully then they would indeed take the vaccine if it came around again.
They clearly didn't know, as they 2nd part was meant to be distrubuted after a month.But they wouldn't need to anyway. They don't need the full course again. All they need is the countinuation of the old one anyway.
They may need the full course, I have no idea how one would need to proceed in this sort of situation.No it doesn't. It says it was meant as a full course but the team moved on. It doesn't say they weren't coming back.
The fact that they never came back proves you wrong. The article I linked clearly show they have 0 intention of returning and were there to harvest DNA samples. The intention is very clear as per there actions.The second dose does not have to be administered exactly one month later. It has to be administered at least one month after. But obviously once the story broke about the doctors DNA program it made it impossible for them to return.
More excuses for medical malpractice I see. They moved on to another area. They clearly had 0 intention of ever coming back. Otherwise, they would have shown up on time or soon after. So unless you can show me your medical expertise, I am siding with Doctors without Borders on this one. I have yet to see you provide a single shred of proof of any intent to return. I have already shown clearly, that there was 0 intent to return and that the program was a ruse and nothing more. So again, excuse after excuse/I'm not defending it.
I am sorry, but this is utterly absurd statement to make. You have defended there deplorable actions, with excuse after excuse for several posts. If you going to defend this sort of nonsense, at least admit to it.I don't care enough about it to feel the need to defend it.
And yet you have made multiple posts doing exactly that. Seriously, this is some comedy stuff right there.I just dislike people who try to get their point across with exaggeration and bull**** like some Helen Lovejoy personification.
I dislike people who defend people who use endager children, and seem to think its ok to collect there DNA, against the wishes of them and there parents, but then there Pakistani children, so who cares about there safety and rights. The CIA, American government, and A corrupt Pakistani "Doctor" clearly didn't, as do there defenders.This "endangering the children" nonsense is exactly that. The children are no worse of than they were before.
Yes, they are. They taught there were vaccinated. There parents may not allow them to get vacinated again due to this. They have been endangered pretty damn clearly. Doctors without Borders, have said very clearly what damage was done.
The fact is that clearly putting Pakistani children in danger is not an issue for you, is rather disgusting. You have spent several posts defending the indefensible and then claim you weren't. Truly astonishing nonsense right there. If you want to defend the CIA, and there dodgy crap, then at least have the decency to admit to it.
The damage done by this stupidity was clearly outlined by Doctors without Borders, and the damage will take years and years to be fixed. So good job CIA, they have ensured more victims fo diseases that could easily be eradicated. I am sure they are very proud of themselves, as they seem to value Human lives about as much as the people they are looking to kill.
Your posts are some of the worst sort of apologetic nonsense imho. Then there is the fact you deny defending this at all, after doing exactly that over multiple posts. As I said earlier, this is some comedy stuff.0 -
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Unavailable for Comment wrote: »Really? Well let's think about that.
The CIA knew that the compound didn't have a transient population and that the only person who left regularly was al Kuwaiti. They also knew that other people didn't visit the compound. Therefore, if your theory is correct, the CIA were interested enough in the current occupants of the compound to authorise collection of their DNA profiles.
Why then were the American seals given amended rules of engagement allowing them to kill anyone who got in their way whether or not they showed a credible threat? Obviously the CIA didn't think the residents were that high value to not even make an attempt to capture them. Five people were killed that night. Only one was armed.
Maybe they didn't have enough room in the chopper. Or maybe the DNA profiles showed that there were no other high value targets.Unavailable for Comment wrote: »Or perhaps you think the DNA collection was to ensure they killed the right Osama? Well, despite what Gibbs and the rest of the NCIS team would have you believe, DNA is useless without something to compare it to. So you have to wonder what DNA evidence the Americans used to positively ID the corpse. Did they do a quick swab of the other residents of the house while holding them at gun point? Nope. They compared his DNA to samples collected from his sister who had died of brain cancer several years beforehand while in Boston and whose remains had been subpoenaed and stored by the American authorities.
Really there was no point to such a dangerous operation unless, well I dunno but maybe the CIA loves polio and doesn't want to see it eradicated.
It was you who suggested the DNA was to identify his body afterwards a few posts back. I belueved it was to identify who was in the compound and around it.Unavailable for Comment wrote: »You may not doubt it but you don't seem to understand that the damage to other programs is what's dangerous.
I understand it, it just doesn't bother me. If someone is too stupid to accept medical help because they are afriad of the big bad CIA then that's their problem. There's always someone else who can use it.Unavailable for Comment wrote: »Obviously if a person believes they are vaccinated to a certain threat they become less aware of that threat. That's just common sense.
No, that's just stupidity.Unavailable for Comment wrote: »It takes three genuine doses to become vaccinated. They only administered one. Therefore it doesn't matter if it was genuine or not. It wouldn't work
It can still be followed up with the next two. If they had no intention of following up why would they waste the money using a proper vaccine?0 -
Very nice morals you have, oh sorry your (sic) an atheist!
Thank you, but enough about me already.:o:o:o
Do you have any opinion on the matter that is the subject of this thread? Did that doctor who violated his Hippocratic oath (or the Muslim equivalent thereof) and committed treason against his country, which is de facto at war, deserve his relatively lenient sentence (given that he could have been sent to the gallows) or should he be allowed to walk free and perhaps further undermine public trust in disease-prevention programmes.
Do you believe anyone who commits treason should get away with it just because their actions benefit the USA?:rolleyes:
If a Pakistani who has the plans to this little gadget (see link below) were to pass them on to the USA or India (in the interests of world peace, naturally), should he get a medal rather than the hangman's rope?
http://www.deccanherald.com/content/252985/pak-tests-nuclear-capable-short.html0 -
The fact that the families vaccinated, didn't bring up the issue themselves, show that they taught there children were vaccinated. They surely would have complained about the lack of a follow up.
They clearly didn't know, as they 2nd part was meant to be distrubuted after a month.
They may need the full course, I have no idea how one would need to proceed in this sort of situation.The fact that they never came back proves you wrong.
Of course they didn't come back. Their doctor was prosecuted for treason. He's in jail.More excuses for medical malpractice I see. They moved on to another area. They clearly had 0 intention of ever coming back. Otherwise, they would have shown up on time.
So if you were getting this vaccine you would expect the doctor to stay with you for a month until you were ready for your second shot? No I think you would go about your regular life and come back to him after the month was up.I am sorry, but this is utterly absurd statement to make. You have defended there deplorable actions, with excuse after excuse for several posts. If you going to defend this sort of nonsense, at least admit to it.And yet you have made multiple posts doing exactly that. Seriously, this is some comedy stuff right there.I dislike people who defend people who use endager children.
I don't know why you felt the need to split this paragraph up. I haven't been defending the DNA program. I've been pointing out the flaw in your assessment of the vaccination program as a cover. Two different aspects of the situation.Yes, they are. They taught there were vaccinated. There parents may not allow them to get vacinated again due to this. They have been endangers. Doctors without Borders, have said very clearly what damage was done.
The fact is that clearly putting Pakistani children in danger is not an issue for you, is rather disgusting. You have spent several posts defending the indefensible and then claim you weren't. Truly astonishing nonsense right there. If you want to defend the CIA, and there dodgy crap, then at least have the decency to admit to it.
Even someone who receives the full course does not automatically become immune. They must be tested to confirm it. You are saying they thought they were fully vaccinated but there is nothing at all to suggest they weren't aware the course was incomplete. It's just an assumption you are making. Even if you are fully vaccinated, it doesn't mean you can go out and get your hepatitis b infected friend to spit in your mouth or become blood brothers. You still need to take the exact same precautions as before.
So no, nobody is any worse off.0 -
Of course they didn't come back. Their doctor was prosecuted for treason. He's in jail.
He could have come back before that, but he chose not too. Again, the entire program was a fake. He had no intention of ever coming back, hence why they moved on and never came back.
Also, he was not the only one who was a part of the program. Surely, if it was a real program, the other people who are not in jail would have come back, and yet they never did. Do you really think there was only one person who was a part of the program. If the program was real, why did it no continue?So if you were getting this vaccine you would expect the doctor to stay with you for a month until you were ready for your second shot? No I think you would go about your regular life and come back to him after the month was up.
They didn't come back, as the entire program was a fake.I don't know why you felt the need to split this paragraph up. I haven't been defending the DNA program. I've been pointing out the flaw in your assessment of the vaccination program as a cover. Two different aspects of the situation.
You are making excuses for medical malpractive, and violationg of the hippocratic oath, and have done so again and again.So no, nobody is any worse off.
So your excuses is that they are not worse off. Again, they taught they were vacinated, and may very well never get vaccinated as there parent won't trust any future programs. So yes, they are worse off. As those children probably won't ever get vaccinated against anything now, due to there parent distrusting such programs. Seems pretty clear that they are worse off, and that there will be a lot of damage done by this fake program.0 -
Maybe they didn't have enough room in the chopper. Or maybe the DNA profiles showed that there were no other high value targets.
They didn't get any DNA profiles. The operation was a complete failure yet they still went in guns blazing. Obviously they weren't too concerned with who lived there. Jeez how hard is that to grasp?It was you who suggested the DNA was to identify his body afterwards a few posts back. I belueved it was to identify who was in the compound and around it.
Actually I was pointing out how unnecessary it was if that was the motive when they had access to other, better methods of getting DNA.I understand it, it just doesn't bother me. If someone is too stupid to accept medical help because they are afriad of the big bad CIA then that's their problem. There's always someone else who can use it.
I'm sure your pithy messages of goodwill will be of great comfort to the innumerable children and females who are not in a position to make a choice for themselves and will have to forego vaccination as their patriarchal society loses all faith in western benevolence. Still who cares about them right? It's not like they're Americans.
Also obviously NCIS hasn't covered how doctors eradicate diseases like polio yet but suffice to say we have to vaccinate pretty much everybody. The more holdouts the more difficult it becomes. So yeah it does have a big impact.No, that's just stupidity.
I agree. Yours.It can still be followed up with the next two. If they had no intention of following up why would they waste the money using a proper vaccine?
Seriously? Why would they waste the money? Because the Pakistani health board might wonder why some dude is wandering around giving doses of saline solution to people. The cost would be on a par so it would be a better cover story to use the genuine article.
Honestly I know the NCIS TV show has trained you to have an inquiring mind and ask questions but please try using your own common sense.0 -
He could have come back before that, but he chose not too. Again, the entire program was a fake. He had no intention of ever coming back, hence why they moved on and never came back.
Also, he was not the only one who was a part of the program. Surely, if it was a real program, the other people who are not in jail would have come back, and yet they never did. Do you really think there was only one person who was a part of the program. If the program was real, why did it no continue?
Because they would have been considered complicit.They didn't come back, as the entire program was a fake.
Not the entire program. The vaccine was real.You are making excuses for medical malpractive, and violationg of the hippocratic oath, and have done so again and again.
There are two seperate issues here. One is the morality of collecting DNA in secret. The second is the use of a vaccine program as a cover for something else. You are just incapable of seperating the issues.So your excuses is that they are not worse off. Again, they taught they were vacinated, and may very well never get vaccinated as there parent won't trust any future programs. So yes, they are worse off. As those children probably won't ever get vaccinated against anything now, due to there parent distrusting such programs. Seems pretty clear that they are worse off, and that there will be a lot of damage done by this fake program.
No they are not worse off. You obviously don't know what that means. They are in exactly the same position as if no vaccine program ever came to their village.Unavailable for Comment wrote: »They didn't get any DNA profiles. The operation was a complete failure yet they still went in guns blazing. Obviously they weren't too concerned with who lived there. Jeez how hard is that to grasp?
How do you know what DNA information they got? You have a direct link to the CIA mainframe?Unavailable for Comment wrote: »Actually I was pointing out how unnecessary it was if that was the motive when they had access to other, better methods of getting DNA.
And I was pointing out that there are much bigger reasons for building up a DNA profile of an area.Unavailable for Comment wrote: »I'm sure your pithy messages of goodwill will be of great comfort to the innumerable children and females who are not in a position to make a choice for themselves and will have to forego vaccination as their patriarchal society loses all faith in western benevolence. Still who cares about them right? It's not like they're Americans.
It's the leaders of these patriarchal societies that are to blame. If a woman doesn't have a right to get her own vaccine from the big bad americans then that is the fault of her restrictive government who limit her rights and not the fault of the doctor they don't trust.Unavailable for Comment wrote: »Also obviously NCIS hasn't covered how doctors eradicate diseases like polio yet but suffice to say we have to vaccinate pretty much everybody. The more holdouts the more difficult it becomes. So yeah it does have a big impact.
Why do you keep talking about polio?Unavailable for Comment wrote: »I agree. Yours.
Best you can do?Unavailable for Comment wrote: »Seriously? Why would they waste the money? Because the Pakistani health board might wonder why some dude is wandering around giving doses of saline solution to people. The cost would be on a par so it would be a better cover story to use the genuine article.
If the pakistani health board was in any way useful then they wouldn't need groups to come in and vaccinate their people.0 -
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Just because you dislike the "won't sombody think of the children" approach doesn't mean you have to try to argue against everything that you're arguing against. What the doctor did was wrong and would have been wrong if the patients were adults too.0
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Because they would have been considered complicit.
Why would be considered complicit after administering the other needed doses? Surely, completing the program, would actually show that they didn't know about the whole DNA harvesting business.
Sorry, but you excuse make 0 sense. Its very clear they had no intention of ever returning. Otherwise they would have done exactly that after a month or so.Not the entire program. The vaccine was real.
Yes, the entire program was fake, as they didn't give them all 3 doses. Again, another excuse for medical malpractice.There are two seperate issues here. One is the morality of collecting DNA in secret. The second is the use of a vaccine program as a cover for something else. You are just incapable of seperating the issues.
It was all the one program. I see no reason to seperate them.No they are not worse off.
Yes, they are, as they probably won't be vaccinated for anything else, do to mistrusting those giving them out.You obviously don't know what that means.
I most certainly do know what that means. You are just making excuses for these clowns.They are in exactly the same position as if no vaccine program ever came to their village.
No, there not. They are now going to not trust people offering vaccines.
So now these children probably won't be vaccinated. So, they most certainly are worse off. To pretend that there is no effect is an utterly silly excuse. Again, another excuse for these clowns.
I will refer again to what Doctors without Borders said. So until you can show me how you know better than them, or have some proof to show there statements to be wrong, I think it fair to say you don't have a leg to stand on.0 -
Because they would have been considered complicit.
Wrong. They have already admitted their part and weren't censured as they believed they were taking part in a genuine vaccination programme.Not the entire program. The vaccine was real.
Wrong. As the vaccine did not vaccinate than by definition it was not real. Obviously if the patients had options to get this elsewhere they would have gone there so it follows that they are not able to receive the remaining doses. Therefore the entire programme was not genuine.There are two seperate issues here. One is the morality of collecting DNA in secret. The second is the use of a vaccine program as a cover for something else. You are just incapable of seperating the issues.
There is one issue. Is it justifiable to allow a corrupt doctor to fake a vaccination programme to breach people's right to bodily integrity to gather unnecessary information while disregarding the obvious dangers such a ploy would present to ongoing genuine vaccination efforts in the area?No they are not worse off. You obviously don't know what that means. They are in exactly the same position as if no vaccine program ever came to their village.
This has been disproven by everyone so far. Please, please keep up.How do you know what DNA information they got? You have a direct link to the CIA mainframe?
No but nor am I the sort of genius who cites NCIS as evidence. Anyway as to my statement my first clue was when the CIA admitted that they were unable to get any evidence of any value through the programme.And I was pointing out that there are much bigger reasons for building up a DNA profile of an area.
And I was laughing at your naivete in basing your knowledge of DNA collection and it's investigative properties on fictional TV shows.It's the leaders of these patriarchal societies that are to blame. If a woman doesn't have a right to get her own vaccine from the big bad americans then that is the fault of her restrictive government who limit her rights and not the fault of the doctor they don't trust.
I'm sure your pithy statements on equal rights for all genders will be of comfort to the women and children at the mercy of this patriarchal society as their limbs flop aimlessly with polio.
"Magicsean thinks my government is bold. That somehow makes me feel better", they'll whisper as the paralysis creeps in.Why do you keep talking about polio?
Because I thought you had the ability to follow a cogent argument. Do you really not understand how the polio vaccination is crucial to all this? Let me see if I can make it clearer for you:
Because the bold CIA's bold trick it's much harder for real doctors to make people feel better.Best you can do?
I call it as I see it.If the pakistani health board was in any way useful then they wouldn't need groups to come in and vaccinate their people.
What has that got to do with anything? Ifs and buts are of no value here. Deal with the facts as they stand. Those facts are frankly terrible. You are attempting to defend the indefensible.0
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