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The Clerical Child Abuse Thread (merged)

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Comments

  • #3452
    aloyisious
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,992 ✭✭✭✭aloyisious


    There's been a development in the Garda investigation of clerical sexual abuse cases, following on from the Murphy Commission report of the Dublin Diocese. A Wicklow-based Garda has been arrested and is facing charges in connection with falsifying DPP documents.

    http://www.irishtimes.com/news/garda-held-over-claim-she-forged-dpp-documentation-1.1404865


  • #3453
    marienbad
    Registered Users Posts: 9,463 ✭✭✭marienbad


    aloyisious wrote: »
    There's been a development in the Garda investigation of clerical sexual abuse cases, following on from the Murphy Commission report of the Dublin Diocese. A Wicklow-based Garda has been arrested and is facing charges in connection with falsifying DPP documents.

    A member of the Garda has been arrested and was due to appear before the courts this morning over allegations that she forged documentation from the office of the Director of Public Prosecutions.

    http://www.irishtimes.com/news/garda-held-over-claim-she-forged-dpp-documentation-1.1404865

    Friends in low places .:mad: will it never end ?


  • #3454
    Benny_Cake
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,205 ✭✭✭Benny_Cake


    Mod note: Can I remind everyone that simply copying and pasting a full article from a newspaper or blog is not allowed. You may post one paragraph and provide a link. Please read Dav's post here.

    Moderators shouldn't have to edit other user's posts and chase down links, so if it happens in future such posts will simply be deleted.


  • #3455
    aloyisious
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,992 ✭✭✭✭aloyisious


    Murphy Commission report Chapter 20.

    Chief superintendent McGovern told the Commission “he considered Fr McCabe’s behaviour to be a matter for the Church to deal with. This was despite his knowledge that an investigation had just commenced into an allegation of indecent assault,” as the report puts it. He said “the question of disciplining the priest was a matter for Archbishop’s House who were in the main responsible for the priest.”

    http://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/religion-and-beliefs/church-can-t-whitewash-abuse-archbishop-diarmuid-martin-1.1462322


  • #3456
    PopePalpatine
    Registered Users Posts: 11,964 ✭✭✭✭PopePalpatine


    It seems that old habits die hard: the Catholic Church's envoy to the Dominican Republic has been recalled after allegations of paedophilia. [Reuters]


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  • #3457
    Faith2013
    Registered Users Posts: 43 ✭Faith2013


    PopePalpatine wrote: »
    It seems that old habits die hard: the Catholic Church's envoy to the Dominican Republic has been recalled after allegations of paedophilia. [Reuters]

    Yeap zero tolerance policy.


  • #3458
    PopePalpatine
    Registered Users Posts: 11,964 ✭✭✭✭PopePalpatine


    You'd think that they'd make him face justice in that country's courts, not just get sentenced to X years of "penance".


  • #3459
    Faith2013
    Registered Users Posts: 43 ✭Faith2013


    PopePalpatine wrote: »
    You'd think that they'd make him face justice in that country's courts, not just get sentenced to X years of "penance".

    If there was a civil crime commited believe me he will face trial... He won't be sent to a monastery. The Pope has made it quiet clear that if you commit a crime you will serve the time, that is why there is a Monsignor in jail for money laundering in Vatican bank. There simply is no place in the Church for abuse and no Bishop is going to stand over this.


  • #3460
    Kettleson
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,047 ✭✭✭Kettleson


    Faith2013 wrote: »
    If there was a civil crime commited believe me he will face trial... He won't be sent to a monastery. The Pope has made it quiet clear that if you commit a crime you will serve the time, that is why there is a Monsignor in jail for money laundering in Vatican bank. There simply is no place in the Church for abuse and no Bishop is going to stand over this.


    And there are plenty of bishops and other clergy members who are still keeping quiet on previous crimes and various other wrong doings, but did not have the balls or moral strenght to do anything about it either now, or at the time.

    Many were so knee deep in the corruption of the catholic church that they knew no better and many were hiding their own deviancy within the secrecy and corruption of the church.

    So now they know for their own survival that they have to challenge and expose such heinous crimes in the future. Little more than a crass PR excercise. Too little too late and totally false.

    The catholic church is finished, done and thank god for that.
    <SNIP>
    Mod: This isn't the thread for discussing Catholic theology. Remarks or statement as facts that directly contradict the belief of Catholics in an offensive manner aren't really welcome here.


  • #3461
    Kettleson
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,047 ✭✭✭Kettleson


    Faith2013 wrote: »
    If there was a civil crime commited believe me he will face trial... He won't be sent to a monastery. The Pope has made it quiet clear that if you commit a crime you will serve the time, that is why there is a Monsignor in jail for money laundering in Vatican bank. There simply is no place in the Church for abuse and no Bishop is going to stand over this.

    "The pope has made it quite clear...."

    Do you really believe that one man in the vatican can police the actions and appalling behaviour of hundreds of thousands around the world?

    I work directly with the victims of clerical abuse and there are plenty of people still in high places who still remain silent about what they know or were party to covering up. I consider the defence of the indefensible utterly offensive.


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  • #3462
    Manach
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 9,733 Mod ✭✭✭✭Manach


    Kettleson wrote: »
    "The pope has made it quite clear...."

    Do you really believe that one man in the vatican can police the actions and appalling behaviour of hundreds of thousands around the world?
    Where are you picking those figures out from? Given the wide-ranging and universal nature of the Church, there are always going to be various bad elements. However based on academic courses I've attended, the rate of criminal offence of clergy in general would indicated be either lower that other professional norms, or equivalent in some cases.


  • #3463
    Kettleson
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,047 ✭✭✭Kettleson


    Manach wrote: »
    Where are you picking those figures out from? Given the wide-ranging and universal nature of the Church, there are always going to be various bad elements. However based on academic courses I've attended, the rate of criminal offence of clergy in general would indicated be either lower that other professional norms, or equivalent in some cases.

    I wasn't referring to criminal offenders, I was referring to the number of clergy in total within the catholic church. Perhaps you can advise how many members that is?

    Then apply my logic that what one person has decreed has little influence on what numerous others are intent on doing around the world and how that is policed. That isn't 100% achievable within one diocese, or even one parish.

    Just because one man says he wont tolerate it from here on, doesn't mean everything has been put right forever for the future.


  • #3464
    Faith2013
    Registered Users Posts: 43 ✭Faith2013


    Kettleson wrote: »
    "The pope has made it quite clear...."

    Do you really believe that one man in the vatican can police the actions and appalling behaviour of hundreds of thousands around the world?

    I work directly with the victims of clerical abuse and there are plenty of people still in high places who still remain silent about what they know or were party to covering up. I consider the defence of the indefensible utterly offensive.

    So you honestly think that Bishops are going to cover up criminal acts?

    The Church has come to clear terms it can't cover up abuse.

    Also if you believe that people in high places are covering up abuse then you have the moral obligation to report it.

    You can't accuse clergy of covering abuse without proof. And if you actually have proof of abuse then go to the Gards.


  • #3465
    Faith2013
    Registered Users Posts: 43 ✭Faith2013


    Kettleson wrote: »
    I wasn't referring to criminal offenders, I was referring to the number of clergy in total within the catholic church. Perhaps you can advise how many members that is?

    Then apply my logic that what one person has decreed has little influence on what numerous others are intent on doing around the world and how that is policed. That isn't 100% achievable within one diocese, or even one parish.

    Just because one man says he wont tolerate it from here on, doesn't mean everything has been put right forever for the future.

    The Pope has made it crystal clear that it will not tolerate abuse, which is a crime never mind a sin.

    That x bishop decides to deal with abuse of a priest without reporting it to the authorities is HIS problem, he is committing a crime and he knows it.


  • #3466
    Sonics2k
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,253 ✭✭✭Sonics2k


    Faith2013 wrote: »
    So you honestly think that Bishops are going to cover up criminal acts?

    The Church has come to clear terms it can't cover up abuse.

    Also if you believe that people in high places are covering up abuse then you have the moral obligation to report it.

    You can't accuse clergy of covering abuse without proof. And if you actually have proof of abuse then go to the Gards.

    What? It's been shown that Bishops have covered criminal acts, it had been reported to the Gardai and the people have been moved somewhere else in the world.

    Read a newspaper for crying out loud.


  • #3467
    Manach
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 9,733 Mod ✭✭✭✭Manach


    Perhaps read a history book as well for comparison.

    The treatment of the most vulnerable in European societies up to the 70s is broadly comparable to church based institutions - given that this state from its earliest foundation had emigration as a solution to social ills.
    As for a broad ignoring of the facts of rights abuses (using ECHR terminology), then sections of the civil guards and civil service in other areas are complicate in such dealing with prisoners, the elderly and mental patents. To use the abject failings in the hierarchy to then paint most ordinary clerics and to seek to implement a broad anti-religious re-structuring of society based, a la some type of 3rd Republic France, on political historical actors who have failed so deeply would be a cause of wonderment if it was not so foolish.


  • #3468
    Kettleson
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,047 ✭✭✭Kettleson


    Manach wrote: »
    Perhaps read a history book as well for comparison.

    The treatment of the most vulnerable in European societies up to the 70s is broadly comparable to church based institutions - given that this state from its earliest foundation had emigration as a solution to social ills.
    As for a broad ignoring of the facts of rights abuses (using ECHR terminology), then sections of the civil guards and civil service in other areas are complicate in such dealing with prisoners, the elderly and mental patents. To use the abject failings in the hierarchy to then paint most ordinary clerics and to seek to implement a broad anti-religious re-structuring of society based, a la some type of 3rd Republic France, on political historical actors who have failed so deeply would be a cause of wonderment if it was not so foolish.

    Yes indeed it was a wondrous example of letting us all eat cake. Even well into the late 20th century. The analogy used based on the imagery of cake eating to suggest anti-religious sentiment was indeed common enough as well in the united states as Dr John Hindleberg suggested in his research papers which unfortunately remain unpublished to this day.

    Bearing this in mind, there are numerous cases of clerical abuse in Ireland which have yet to be brought before the courts, but they will be in due course and not before time.


  • #3469
    Faith2013
    Registered Users Posts: 43 ✭Faith2013


    Sonics2k wrote: »
    What? It's been shown that Bishops have covered criminal acts, it had been reported to the Gardai and the people have been moved somewhere else in the world.

    Read a newspaper for crying out loud.

    "Shown" past tense.. If an allegation is make known today to a Bishop he has to report it to the Civil authorities.

    Has there been a case of abuse in Ireland in say the last 10 years.. I mean a case report of abuse committed since 2003?

    Abuse runs contrary to everything that Christ preached.


  • #3470
    Sonics2k
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,253 ✭✭✭Sonics2k


    Faith2013 wrote: »
    "Shown" past tense.. If an allegation is make known today to a Bishop he has to report it to the Civil authorities.

    Has there been a case of abuse in Ireland in say the last 10 years.. I mean a case report of abuse committed since 2003?

    Abuse runs contrary to everything that Christ preached.

    I'm on my phone, so it's hard to find a link. But I believe there was a case reported from 2003.

    But maybe we should be congratulating them for not molesting children for 10 years, all past cases will be forgotten because they realized it's bad to touch kids.

    Honestly.


  • #3471
    Faith2013
    Registered Users Posts: 43 ✭Faith2013


    Sonics2k wrote: »
    I'm on my phone, so it's hard to find a link. But I believe there was a case reported from 2003.

    But maybe we should be congratulating them for not molesting children for 10 years, all past cases will be forgotten because they realized it's bad to touch kids.

    Honestly.

    No much point having a discussion if you won't believe the objective facts of how abuse cases are handled by Bishops today.

    forgot to add @Sonics2k you don't need to believe my word, you can just go by the state audits of Irish Diocesis, they speak for themselves. there has not been a case of abuse commited in the last 10 years. If abuse were to be reported it would be reported by and large to the Gards or HSE and they are certainly not going to let it pass.


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  • #3472
    Sonics2k
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,253 ✭✭✭Sonics2k


    Faith2013 wrote: »
    No much point having a discussion if you won't believe the objective facts of how abuse cases are handled by Bishops today.

    forgot to add @Sonics2k you don't need to believe my word, you can just go by the state audits of Irish Diocesis, they speak for themselves. there has not been a case of abuse commited in the last 10 years. If abuse were to be reported it would be reported by and large to the Gards or HSE and they are certainly not going to let it pass.

    Here is my point.

    Are we supposed to be proud that apparently no member of the Clergy has molested a child in the last 10 years? Are we supposed to be happy with this? Surprised?

    I'll be honest. I kinda go along the lines -no one has molested a child at all, ever-.

    Whoopededoo for the Clergy. They managed to go a decade without ruining a childs life. That we know of anyway.


  • #3473
    Turtwig
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,578 ✭✭✭✭Turtwig


    I'd actually be shocked if there wasn't a case of child sex abuse among a member of the clergy in the last ten years. Perhaps that's a indication of their position of trust being reduced. Still though like teachers, child psychologists and other professions that have high levels of trust and confidentiality with children you would expect some child abusers to be present. It's a horrible fact to say but those are the kind of professions that provide the preferred environment for the abusers to operate in. So you would expect to hear cases about it. Actually, I'd be more concerned if we ended with a situation where no cases were coming to light, ever!


  • #3474
    Faith2013
    Registered Users Posts: 43 ✭Faith2013


    Jernal wrote: »
    I'd actually be shocked if there wasn't a case of child sex abuse among a member of the clergy in the last ten years. Perhaps that's a indication of their position of trust being reduced. Still though like teachers, child psychologists and other professions that have high levels of trust and confidentiality with children you would expect some child abusers to be present. It's a horrible fact to say but those are the kind of professions that provide the preferred environment for the abusers to operate in. So you would expect to hear cases about it. Actually, I'd be more concerned if we ended with a situation where no cases were coming to light, ever!

    Its not surprising at all, Alter boys are supervised always a 2nd adult present, if a priest wants to organise an event with kids there has to be a parent present. Its the same with other organisations, you can't have a swimming class without a parent present.

    Child protection is very different today, and the guidelines are clear.

    Also new seminarians today have a lot more stringent psychological evaluations, training is different to 30 years ago. Seminarians are also older today and many come from uni or work...

    So the evidence speaks for itself, the Church has rooted out abuse as best it can, you can never say 100%, but you an put in place the best measures possible.


  • #3475
    Glined
    Registered Users Posts: 11 ✭Glined


    A cover up being when an organization goes out of its way to cover up a scandal.

    But with the Catholic church, this wasn't the case. Since the Church has always dealt with all problems privately - because of the nature of the organization (some would say organism).

    The failure to handle the problem was a natural consequence of this DIY policy. I can see a difference here, a difference that very few are willing to notice.

    Since it is not a crime to be unable or ill equipped to handle something like child abuse, I don't see why anyone but the actual abusing priests are guilty for doing wrong.

    If you saw someone drowning, but you didn't know how to swim to save them, then the person died, does that make you a murderer?

    Thoughts..

    Mod: Moved to clerical abuse megathread


  • #3476
    PopePalpatine
    Registered Users Posts: 11,964 ✭✭✭✭PopePalpatine


    Not saving a drowning person because you can't swim is totally incomparable to perverting the course of justice. :mad:


  • #3477
    Glined
    Registered Users Posts: 11 ✭Glined


    PopePalpatine wrote: »
    Not saving a drowning person because you can't swim is totally incomparable to perverting the course of justice. :mad:

    You're not taking into account, the fact that nobody knew how to handle the problem. That is not a crime. Anybody here would have done the same thing in those days. But it's just easier to judge by todays standards I guess.

    Oh, and the police can't arrest anyone apart from the actual abusers, because not being trained or equipped to properly handle such a serious situation is not a crime, punishable by law. Stop complaining about nobody being arrested, it would be unlawful.

    Way to ignore my main point.


  • #3478
    PopePalpatine
    Registered Users Posts: 11,964 ✭✭✭✭PopePalpatine


    It is naive to believe that the Church was simply "ill-equipped" to tackle child abuse. Time and time again, it has been proven that the hierarchy were aware of child abuse and did little to stop it until they were caught (e.g. Fr. Brendan Smyth).


  • #3479
    Glined
    Registered Users Posts: 11 ✭Glined


    PopePalpatine wrote: »
    It is naive to believe that the Church was simply "ill-equipped" to tackle child abuse. Time and time again, it has been proven that the hierarchy were aware of child abuse and did little to stop it until they were caught (e.g. Fr. Brendan Smyth).

    Uh, would the Church doing nothing about it not be a clue that they didn't know how to handle it? Proving my point.

    They were unable to handle it, I'll admit that, but that is not a crime. Just as you might find yourself in a similar difficult situation.

    Anyway, it wasn't a cover up since the Church operates rather 'privately' anyway. It cannot be classed as a cover up because of the reason I gave.

    I don't know what it would be called.


  • #3480
    PopePalpatine
    Registered Users Posts: 11,964 ✭✭✭✭PopePalpatine


    For such a hierarchy of learned men (how else would they have become bishops and archbishops?), you'd think they would be able to handle clerical abuse. Perhaps reporting the offender like ordinary people would have been a good starting point.


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  • #3481
    marienbad
    Registered Users Posts: 9,463 ✭✭✭marienbad


    Glined wrote: »
    Uh, would the Church doing nothing about it not be a clue that they didn't know how to handle it? Proving my point.

    They were unable to handle it, I'll admit that, but that is not a crime. Just as you might find yourself in a similar difficult situation.

    Anyway, it wasn't a cover up since the Church operates rather 'privately' anyway. It cannot be classed as a cover up because of the reason I gave.

    I don't know what it would be called.

    Aiding and abetting is crime and covers this perfectly. And that is the least of the church's crimes.

    I see you are a new poster - might I ask why would you raise this particular question and in such a peculiar manner ?


  • #3482
    Glined
    Registered Users Posts: 11 ✭Glined


    marienbad wrote: »
    Aiding and abetting is crime and covers this perfectly. And that is the least of the church's crimes.

    I see you are a new poster - might I ask why would you raise this particular question and in such a peculiar manner ?

    What peculiar manner? My first point was laid out clearly: I see a difference between the Church in her mission ans in other organizations. The claimed 'coverup' is an illusion.

    This 'aiding and abetting' cannot truly be applied to this organization, unlike others, because of the nature of her mission and whom she claims to speak on behalf of, so it is a natural consequence that they attempted, and failed to handle the abuses within their own walls.


  • #3483
    PopePalpatine
    Registered Users Posts: 11,964 ✭✭✭✭PopePalpatine


    Loathe as I am to quote Margaret Thatcher, but "crime is a crime is a crime".

    It is wilfully ignorant to suggest that moving sexual predators from parish to parish and swearing victims of clerical abuse is anything other than a "cover-up".


  • #3484
    tommy2bad
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,255 ✭✭✭tommy2bad


    PopePalpatine wrote: »
    Loathe as I am to quote Margaret Thatcher, but "crime is a crime is a crime".

    It is wilfully ignorant to suggest that moving sexual predators from parish to parish and swearing victims of clerical abuse is anything other than a "cover-up".

    I don't think he's saying that it wasn't in effect a cover up, what he's claiming is that it wasn't done with criminal intention. I'm not sure if this is better or worse though, Were they fools or knaves?


  • #3485
    MrPudding
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,788 ✭✭✭MrPudding


    Glined wrote: »
    What peculiar manner? My first point was laid out clearly: I see a difference between the Church in her mission ans in other organizations. The claimed 'coverup' is an illusion.

    This 'aiding and abetting' cannot truly be applied to this organization, unlike others, because of the nature of her mission and whom she claims to speak on behalf of, so it is a natural consequence that they attempted, and failed to handle the abuses within their own walls.
    Lets allow that there is, or was, no legal failure in not reporting child abuse when it was discovered, this still leaves a couple of issues for the church and its management.

    First of all, I find it difficult to imagine that those in the church did not think that raping children was a bad thing. The excuses that get trotted out, which I fear you are on the verge of using, like "well we didn't understand child abuse" or "we didn't understand what was going on" are fairly weak. The church has some fairly intelligent people working in it, I can't understand how these people could not realise that raping children was wrong and harmful.

    Leading on from this, and still allowing that there legal failure in not reporting the abuse, do you not think the church had a moral obligation to society in general and the victims in particular? That the church could put its own well being before that of the victims of its employees is an absolute disgrace.

    Considering the type of organisation this is, and what they claim to be, some kind of moral guardians, it is arguable that their moral failings in the sex abuse scandal are equally, if not more, serious that any legal failing they may be guilty of.

    And however you might try to paint it, "... they attempted, and failed to handle the abuses within their own walls" there was a coverup. Crimes were committed, these crimes were known but through various mechanisms those crimes were not reported to the the authorities. It is the very definition of a coverup.

    MrP


  • #3486
    Manach
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 9,733 Mod ✭✭✭✭Manach


    Given the authorian nature of the State of the time and its record of institutional hear no evil/see no evil on what are now considered human rights abuses, the reporting of such matters - which only effected a tiny minority of priests - would have been unlikely have to been effectual given the collusive nature of the Church/State interaction. As well, now the State has taken on the responsible for children rights both here and from trends abroad, the situation has not significantly improved given the broken nature of society (or lack thereof to quote Thatcher.)


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  • #3487
    MrPudding
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,788 ✭✭✭MrPudding


    Manach wrote: »
    Given the authorian nature of the State of the time and its record of institutional hear no evil/see no evil on what are now considered human rights abuses, the reporting of such matters - which only effected a tiny minority of priests - would have been unlikely have to been effectual given the collusive nature of the Church/State interaction. As well, now the State has taken on the responsible for children rights both here and from trends abroad, the situation has not significantly improved given the broken nature of society (or lack thereof to quote Thatcher.)
    Well, we'll never know, will we, as the church put its reputation and well being above that of its employee's rape victims...

    MrP


  • #3488
    Manach
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 9,733 Mod ✭✭✭✭Manach


    MrPudding wrote: »
    Well, we'll never know, will we, as the church put its reputation and well being above that of its employee's rape victims...

    MrP
    And that was utterly wrong, but they also had been a support and aid to many other poor vulnerable families in both social and spiritual without categorising them for being poor.


  • #3489
    marienbad
    Registered Users Posts: 9,463 ✭✭✭marienbad


    Manach wrote: »
    And that was utterly wrong, but they also had been a support and aid to many other poor vulnerable families in both social and spiritual without categorising them for being poor.

    This is what I find so utterly disgraceful and repulsive. Can we for once just state without caveat what was done was wrong .

    By their own beliefs no amount of good works relieves the burden of mortal sin, is that not so ?

    So lets stop this constant equivalence of good works compensating for pure evil.


  • #3490
    PopePalpatine
    Registered Users Posts: 11,964 ✭✭✭✭PopePalpatine


    Classic whataboutery from Manach there. :rolleyes:

    Ever wondered WHY the State couldn't give two sh*ts about abuse victims?


  • #3491
    tommy2bad
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,255 ✭✭✭tommy2bad


    PopePalpatine wrote: »
    Classic whataboutery from Manach there. :rolleyes:

    Ever wondered WHY the State couldn't give two sh*ts about abuse victims?
    Would it be the cost? Same reason as the RCC.
    It could be because no one gave a sh1t about kids at the time. And yes we have to accept that the past is another country, 1950 to 1990 is kinda like the Isl of Man, near enough for us to assume it the same as now but it's not.
    I'm not excusing anyone but to try to understand how stuff like this happened. As Manach pointed out the RCC did a lot of stuff we consider good, in fact the bad and good were done by in many cases the same people.
    What kind of cognitive dissonance was operating, I don't know but they didn't see the world the way we do.


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  • #3492
    Manach
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 9,733 Mod ✭✭✭✭Manach


    marienbad wrote: »
    This is what I find so utterly disgraceful and repulsive.
    ... and if we getting an education on rheothic lets not forget the old faithful of ad hominem.


  • #3493
    marienbad
    Registered Users Posts: 9,463 ✭✭✭marienbad


    Manach wrote: »
    ... and if we getting an education on rheothic lets not forget the old faithful of ad hominem.

    just more deflection-sad.


  • #3494
    hotmail.com
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,592 ✭✭✭✭hotmail.com


    400 priests defrocked in one year...Wo, just how many priests are abusers? This is just the tip of the iceberg of course.


  • #3495
    MrPudding
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,788 ✭✭✭MrPudding


    Manach wrote: »
    ... and if we getting an education on rheothic lets not forget the old faithful of ad hominem.
    How is saying something is disgraceful and repulsive an ad hominem?

    MrP


  • #3496
    Manach
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 9,733 Mod ✭✭✭✭Manach


    In that it refers to the poster and not the the substantive topic in hand.

    As well harping on about deflection leaves the overall topic on abuse both focused on church errors and does not address the both the majoritian of child neglect and abuse occurred outside the remit of the Church and allows a mis-informed narrative to emerge which is being used to attack all aspects of the Clergy and Catholic teaching. This child-neglect I've covered during academic readings of reports on Government handling of the issues since the 90s as well as current trends on child care such as the protection of children online.


  • #3497
    MrPudding
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,788 ✭✭✭MrPudding


    Manach wrote: »
    In that it refers to the poster and not the the substantive topic in hand.

    As well harping on about deflection leaves the overall topic on abuse both focused on church errors and does not address the both the majoritian of child neglect and abuse occurred outside the remit of the Church and allows a mis-informed narrative to emerge which is being used to attack all aspects of the Clergy and Catholic teaching. This child-neglect I've covered during academic readings of reports on Government handling of the issues since the 90s as well as current trends on child care such as the protection of children online.
    Well, it does not really refer to you, had she said "you are utterly disgusting and repulsive" then you would be correct. What Marien actually did was refer to the views that you stated, she tackled the post and not the poster, as the rules of boards say she should.

    Marien is one of many people that find the typical whatabouttery trotted out by supporters of the church disgusting and repulsive. Trying to justify all the wrongs that the church has done by say, "but they do some good stuff", is pretty disgusting and repulsive, not to mention offensive to the victims and any right thinking person.

    Even your inadequate explaination of how Marien's post is supposed to be an hominem is just yet more whatabouttery. I guess that is all you have when you try to defend the undefendable.

    MrP


  • #3498
    PopePalpatine
    Registered Users Posts: 11,964 ✭✭✭✭PopePalpatine


    The UN have released their report on abuse in the Catholic Church, and it's damning. BBC


  • #3499
    hotmail.com
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,592 ✭✭✭✭hotmail.com


    The UN also highlighted the Catholic Church's negative attitude towards homosexuality and it's damaging effect on societies. Given the recent Iona controversy, this is very pertinent.


  • #3500
    aloyisious
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,992 ✭✭✭✭aloyisious


    I'm waiting to see whether the "Holy See's Permanent Observer" at the UN is called home for consultations, given the UN's demand for access to all the Vatican's files on sex-offending clargy and nuns, and all it's files naming those who covered up for the sex offenders.


  • #3501
    Rucking_Fetard
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,260 ✭✭✭Rucking_Fetard


    Pope Francis: 'About 2%' of Catholic clergy paedophiles


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