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Why do Sinn Féin consistently top online polls?

  • 11-01-2013 12:57pm
    #1
    Debator
    Site Banned Posts: 95 ✭✭


    I was browsing politics.ie which is currently hosting an online poll "If there were to be a General Election tomorrow which political party would you vote for?"

    Naturally SF is way ahead in the lead. I have noticed this pattern across almost every online political poll on boards.ie, politics.ie, irishtimes etc. But we all know that these results don't translate into reality. SF are a lunatic fringe party with past terrorism links, with a measly 14 seats in the Dáil (compared to FG's 73, Labour's 33 and even the Independents are more popular than them with 21 seats). This raises several questions:

    (1) Are websites, such as boards.ie, infested with sleeper cells of SF supporters (or Shinnerbots as they're sometimes referred to) aiming to contaminate young impressionable minds with their propaganda?

    (2) If this is the case, why do SF supporters bother hi-jacking these online polls? They have no influence and are a meaningless victory.

    (3) How can we stop the influx of shill accounts?

    Below is the current politics.ie poll
    oiu4hs.jpg
    Tagged:


Comments

  • #2
    Chips Lovell
    Moderators, Politics Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,269 Mod ✭✭✭✭Chips Lovell


    I don't believe that Sinn Fein have an army of shills and bots. I just think its a case that Sinn Fein's demographic is more likely to be active users of online discussion forums and that they're more attached to arguing their position, thus increasing their visibility.


  • #3
    maccored
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,714 ✭✭✭✭maccored


    i think its because many people deep down realise SF raise valid points, but then come election time, havent the bollocks to vote for them. People dont really like change in reality - prefer the status quo, no matter how crap it is.


  • #4
    Bogger77
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,857 ✭✭✭Bogger77


    vote early, vote often, vote sinn fein.


  • #5
    nuac
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,769 ✭✭✭nuac


    SF do come in some numbers to many online polls. I have heard of text messages etc been sent around by them

    Re the current poll on politics.ie I see that there is a number of total who have voted for each party in the column before the percentages.

    By clicking on this ( if you subscribe ) you can get the noms de guerre of each poster has voted.

    Anybody interested can look up each poster's posting record. If a number of voters for any party haven't posted for some time before voting, conclusions can be drawn


  • #6
    Owryan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,024 ✭✭✭Owryan


    From my own limited knowledge most of those I know who support SF are in their teens and happily share all the latest 'ra/SF pictures on fb because its the thing to do. Yet most of them are too young to vote.

    My younger brother is a prime example , just turned 20, he and all his friends seem to have swallowed the SF spiel yet none ever bother to vote.

    In Carlow the SF machine is putting all its effort into targetting the younger generations. If they do get them to vote then......... shudder


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  • #7
    Brussels Sprout
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,477 ✭✭✭Brussels Sprout


    I think a large thing as well is that a lot of people on politics ie are actually living in Northern Ireland which has got a huge SF vote. These polls aren't restricted to people living in the south only.


  • #8
    Scofflaw
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,283 ✭✭✭✭Scofflaw


    Interestingly, the Boards poll in the run-up to the election in 2011 was quite different:

    Position|Party|Votes|Support
    1. |Fine Gael |6,576 |30.6%
    2. |Labour |4,832 |22.5%
    3. |Independent |3,738 |17.4%
    4. |Sinn Féin |2,534 |11.8%
    5. |Fianna Fáil |1,762 |8.2%
    6. |Green Party |1,036 |4.8%
    7. |Socialist Party |466 |2.2%
    8. |People Before Profit |366 |1.7%
    9. |Workers' Party |80 |0.4%
    10. |Workers and Unemployed Action Group |56 |0.3%
    11. |South Kerry Independent Alliance |40 |0.2%
    12. |Christian Solidarity Party |16 |0.1%

    That's based purely on Boards voters, and it looks very similar to the national results - a poll in the Politics forum might give a stronger SF showing, although a poll in 2009 on the forum didn't:

    Party|Votes|Support
    Fianna Fáil |37 |6.49%
    Fine Gael |172 |30.18%
    Sinn Féin |70 |12.28%
    The Labour Party |161 |28.25%
    The Green Party |27 |4.74%
    Libertas |17 |2.98%
    Independent |29 |5.09%
    Cannot Vote |10 |1.75%
    Wouldn't Vote |19 |3.33%
    Workers/Socialist/Hard Left |28 |4.91%

    Not sure why we're more balanced, bar the absence of FF voters - I'd certainly agree that places like politics.ie, journal.ie etc show much higher SF support than we do. Here's the current Journal poll, for example:

    Party|Votes|Support
    Fianna Fáil|1829|22.82%
    Sinn Fein|1748|21.81%
    Labour|1284|16.02%
    Fine Gael|985|12.29%
    Independent|976|12.18%
    Green Party|801|9.99%
    Socialist Party|393|4.90%

    cordially,
    Scofflaw


  • #9
    Technoprisoner
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,310 ✭✭✭Technoprisoner


    did it ever dawn on you that the polls might be telling the truth. that the ordinary people of ireland have had enough of what fine gael/labour/finna fail have to offer. personally im sick of it and will be voting sinn fein. i can see labour losing at least 5 seats in the next election and fine gael rpobably about the same. Those seats have to go somewhere dont they


  • #10
    gaffer91
    Registered Users Posts: 1,307 ✭✭✭gaffer91


    Support for SF can mainly be explained by the youthful demographics of the website, and the internet in general I would say. Many SF supporters on here are probably young chaps who still think that supporting the 'RA is the mark of a hard man and don't realise how utterly futile an ideology like nationalism is.

    Regarding "shinnerbots" this is probably untrue, but I do admit to getting a good laugh from time to time at the naive SF propaganda that some of the shinners on here spout. While I obviously can't name them for fear of getting into ad hominem territory, some of the posters on here are so indoctrinated with SF's fusion of far left ideology and extreme nationalism that it's quite pitiful. They'll grow out of it hopefully.


  • #11
    Scofflaw
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,283 ✭✭✭✭Scofflaw


    Technoprisoner wrote: »
    did it ever dawn on you that the polls might be telling the truth. that the ordinary people of ireland have had enough of what fine gael/labour/finna fail have to offer. personally im sick of it and will be voting sinn fein. i can see labour losing at least 5 seats in the next election and fine gael rpobably about the same. Those seats have to go somewhere dont they

    Well, no, because the point about these online polls is that they don't reflect public opinion. Online polls are self-selecting (people choose to be in them) out of small audiences with particular interests (politics.ie, boards.ie. journal.ie), and do not represent the Irish public at large, although Boards probably comes closest through sheer scale.

    As such, the prevalence of SF or any other party in such polls is completely meaningless except as a guide to the readership of a particular website. It should not be mistaken for real life - although that mistake may be part of the explanation of the effect.

    cordially,
    Scofflaw


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  • #12
    jimmycrackcorm
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,345 ✭✭✭✭jimmycrackcorm


    Technoprisoner wrote: »
    did it ever dawn on you that the polls might be telling the truth. that the ordinary people of ireland have had enough of what fine gael/labour/finna fail have to offer. personally im sick of it and will be voting sinn fein. i can see labour losing at least 5 seats in the next election and fine gael rpobably about the same. Those seats have to go somewhere dont they

    I think their popularity simply reflects a viewpoint similar to yours which is a protest view. You don't say you want to vote for their policies, simply just because they are opposing the government.


  • #13
    pablomakaveli
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,752 ✭✭✭pablomakaveli


    Its clear Sinn Fein are often over represented online polls. Its never backed up in elections which is the real indicator.

    With online polls we could have people from NI voting where Sinn Fein are more popular due to the tribal nature of politics and people under the age of 18 with which Sinn Fein would be more popular. (I can testify to that with me and a lot of my friends being very pro-republican when we were teenagers). So the online polls arent really worth considering.


  • #14
    Debator
    Site Banned Posts: 95 ✭✭Debator


    Bogger77 wrote: »
    vote early, vote often, vote sinn fein.

    This is precisely the propaganda pushing I'm referring to from SF shills. If you want to debate policy, fair enough. But spouting meaningless slogans like a robot is pointless. You're hardly going to convert anyone.


  • #15
    FTA69
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,252 ✭✭✭FTA69


    Debator wrote: »
    (1) Are websites, such as boards.ie, infested with sleeper cells of SF supporters (or Shinnerbots as they're sometimes referred to) aiming to contaminate young impressionable minds with their propaganda?

    That's 100% true in my opinion. I've heard that Sinn Féin actively have an IT department that pays large amount of boards infiltrators from the proceeds of the Northern Bank Robbery. I mean it's a great political strategy when you think about it, having recreational arguments on the internet brought many a party to power.


  • #16
    Chips Lovell
    Moderators, Politics Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,269 Mod ✭✭✭✭Chips Lovell


    Debator wrote: »
    This is precisely the propaganda pushing I'm referring to from SF shills. If you want to debate policy, fair enough. But spouting meaningless slogans like a robot is pointless. You're hardly going to convert anyone.

    I'd say Bogger's tongue was firmly in his cheek.


  • #17
    Fr Tod Umptious
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,392 ✭✭✭✭Fr Tod Umptious


    OP
    Online polls are unscientific.
    People can vote multiple times and they do not take into account demographics like age, location etc.

    Polls by Red C etc are scientific, they use a defined sample size, poll in all constituencies and people only answer the questions once..

    That's the answer to your question


  • #18
    Sierra Oscar
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 8,527 CMod ✭✭✭✭Sierra Oscar


    Vladimir Kurtains wrote: »
    I don't believe that Sinn Fein have an army of shills and bots. I just think its a case that Sinn Fein's demographic is more likely to be active users of online discussion forums and that they're more attached to arguing their position, thus increasing their visibility.

    There is evidence to suggest that they do have a network of users collaborating together with the aim of promoting the SF point of view alongside inflating the level of SF support when it comes to online polls and so forth. I also believe that their Facebook page is being artificially supported with 'likes' - something which other 'experts' in regards social media also suspect.

    It has become quite noticeable ever since they employed someone full-time with the sole role of promoting the party in the online arena. SF are probably ahead of the curve here, and other parties are still playing catch up.

    I think the policy is misguided somewhat in anycase. Firstly, people can see through it and secondly - nothing beats knocking on doors.

    gaffer91 wrote: »
    Support for SF can mainly be explained by the youthful demographics of the website, and the internet in general I would say.

    That undoubtedly goes some way in explaining it, however there has to be more to it than that in my view. There is this myth that SF captures the majority of the 'youth vote'. However it is just that, i.e. a myth. The fact of the matter is that recent RedC polling, which is scientific, has shown that FG, FF & SF are effectively split when it comes to voter support amongst the 18 - 34 age bracket. Indeed in recent times FF have outperformed SF when it comes to support amongst younger voters.

    So if that is the case, why aren't FF or FG proportionately represented in these online polls?


  • #19
    gaffer91
    Registered Users Posts: 1,307 ✭✭✭gaffer91


    Sierra Oscar wrote: »
    That undoubtedly goes some way in explaining it, however there has to be more to it than that in my view. There is this myth that SF captures the majority of the 'youth vote'. However it is just that, i.e. a myth. The fact of the matter is that recent RedC polling, which is scientific, has shown that FG, FF & SF are effectively split when it comes to voter support amongst the 18 - 34 age bracket. Indeed in recent times FF have outperformed SF when it comes to support amongst younger voters.

    So if that is the case, why aren't FF or FG proportionately represented in these online polls?

    That's a good point actually and one I can't really offer an explanation for on the most part.

    Regarding FF being under-represented I would say that this is probably because it is popular for people online to try and see who can hate FF the most. While there was a massive justification for it during the last government, and possibly still is to a certain extent because the scale of the FF's mistakes were so large, it is not really conducive to a good debate for FFers. I'd guess that most FFers online probably simply give up posting on political forums, rather than try and make headway with the vitriol from posters like raymon and Liam Byrne before him, who just detest FF and will never change their views.

    On a side note, having said all that I'm not actually a FFer myself and were there an election in the morning I wouldn't vote for them- but it's equally true that there are certain (admittedly pretty unlikely) circumstances in which I would, so I don't hate them as much as most posters on this forum and others seem to.


  • #20
    Scofflaw
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,283 ✭✭✭✭Scofflaw


    Sierra Oscar wrote: »
    There is evidence to suggest that they do have a network of users collaborating together with the aim of promoting the SF point of view alongside inflating the level of SF support when it comes to online polls and so forth. I also believe that their Facebook page is being artificially supported with 'likes' - something which other 'experts' in regards social media also suspect.

    It has become quite noticeable ever since they employed someone full-time with the sole role of promoting the party in the online arena. SF are probably ahead of the curve here, and other parties are still playing catch up.

    I think the policy is misguided somewhat in anycase. Firstly, people can see through it and secondly - nothing beats knocking on doors.




    That undoubtedly goes some way in explaining it, however there has to be more to it than that in my view. There is this myth that SF captures the majority of the 'youth vote'. However it is just that, i.e. a myth. The fact of the matter is that recent RedC polling, which is scientific, has shown that FG, FF & SF are effectively split when it comes to voter support amongst the 18 - 34 age bracket. Indeed in recent times FF have outperformed SF when it comes to support amongst younger voters.

    So if that is the case, why aren't FF or FG proportionately represented in these online polls?

    I think the reasons behind it are, in a sense, SF-specific, and relate to their rather more recent association with armed struggle compared with other parties. Demonstrating 'popular support' is a standard tactic in unconventional warfare, where ideological and moral support is not guaranteed in the same way as nationalistic support in conventional warfare. It's vital for armed struggle groups to show that their support is strong to encourage their combatants, who rarely have the support structures available to regular combatants, to encourage their own supporters, to strengthen their hand at the negotiating table, to emphasise the legitimacy of their cause, and to demonstrate the legitimacy of support for them.

    cordially,
    Scofflaw


  • #21
    blahfckingblah
    Registered Users Posts: 1,666 ✭✭✭blahfckingblah


    Debator wrote: »
    This is precisely the propaganda pushing I'm referring to from SF shills. If you want to debate policy, fair enough. But spouting meaningless slogans like a robot is pointless. You're hardly going to convert anyone.
    its always easy to spot the people who really focus on hating sinn fein..


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  • #22
    maccored
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,714 ✭✭✭✭maccored


    Scofflaw wrote: »
    It's vital for armed struggle groups to show that their support is strong to encourage their combatants, who rarely have the support structures available to regular combatants, to encourage their own supporters, to strengthen their hand at the negotiating table, to emphasise the legitimacy of their cause, and to demonstrate the legitimacy of support for them.

    cordially,
    Scofflaw

    Sinn Fein are in an armed struggle? No -actually sorry - my bad. Misread, as its linked to the first paragraph

    I do disagree though. Well, as a Sinn Fein member I'd hoped someone would have let me in on the great online conspiracy.


  • #23
    LordSutch
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,078 ✭✭✭✭LordSutch


    Certainly on boards.ie polls SF always seem to be close to (or ahead) of the real leaders, the last general election springs to mind when there were twelve SF threads running simultaneously spanning three or four forums (Fine Gael only had two or three threads about them at the time) I even posted comments at the time questioning just why so many SF threads were popping up so often, and with so many new SF posters too! Same applies to the recent Presidential election when Martin McGuinness got massive support on online polls in various threads, and then, even when he came third (with less than half the number votes of Sean Gallagher), many still insisted that it was a close call for good old Marty :cool:

    Sinn Fein and their followers/fellow travellers are masters of media spin, so I would always expect them to come 1st in most online polls, ar at least to come a close 2nd. Reality of course is a different thing, but I'm sure that the psychology of them being seen to win so many online polls reaps rewards (real votes) for them among the younger more impressionable generation . . . .


  • #24
    GRMA
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,417 ✭✭✭GRMA


    I used to be a member of SF


    I was never asked to vote or anything online or to ask others to do so (I was secretary for a number of things in my area and would as such been responsible for sending out emails, texts etc). If you send out messages too regularly and about things people wouldn't care about (online polls being a prime example, what a big hassle that would be, you'd have lots of older members who arent tech savvy asking what the hell politics.ie is, how to sign up etc) you'd piss people off and they would stop reading them. I also ran a few social media things, facebook pages etc. I can only laugh at suggestions that people artificially bumped up "like" numbers. What a waste of time. Who honestly cares about the number of "likes" something has? The purpose of the pages is to share information, easily tie in supporters and members and to help keep various party structures around the country in touch, they aren't a dick measuring contest

    What would be the point? As fun as it is to wind anti republicans up who check under the bed for provos every night, valuable time is better spent doing leaflet drops, organizing events, knocking on doors etc.

    The answer re online polls is simply that SF have a lot of young supporters and members who are tech savvy whereas other political parties would have a much older membership. Support was/is also growing rapidly. As I said I used to be a member so I'm out of touch with things on the ground these days a bit.

    SF members are also part of what they would call the republican movement - its more than just a party so you have increased levels of motivation and enthusiasm as a result. You have a lot of young members who's family members may have been killed, jailed etc for being involved so things are generally taken quite seriously. Being a republican isnt something you do once a week at a cumann meeting and forget about when you go home.

    I always discouraged people from debating politics online (unless its something they really like to do)and especially on politics.ie. Its pretty much a waste of time.. People who talk politics online generally already have their minds made up and discussions are a series of attempts at oneupmanship (certainly here and p.ie, there are one or two sites which are different and mutually beneficial discussion takes place). Even people who claim to be "independent" have their minds made up. They are the "everybody is wrong but me/I wish a party existed that I agreed with" crowd. By engaging in debate you are not going to win over new supporters or members. "Ordinary" people, the kind of people you want to join, don't read these sites, or at least not in any real worthwhile numbers. Time is better spent elsewhere.

    I encouraged people to instead have a blog or write articles and submit them to be published on various party instruments, internal or otherwise.

    That in mind why would I have encouraged people to post on sites, or to rig polls? It's pointless.

    You also get a serious amount of abuse from some quarters for republican views so a lot of people if they see a poll vote in it, but dont waste their time actually debating it.

    Bit of a long rambling post, but to conclude, OP, there is no plot or plan to get SF members to spam things or whatever, so calm down.


  • #25
    Scofflaw
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,283 ✭✭✭✭Scofflaw


    maccored wrote: »
    Sinn Fein are in an armed struggle? No -actually sorry - my bad. Misread, as its linked to the first paragraph

    I do disagree though. Well, as a Sinn Fein member I'd hoped someone would have let me in on the great online conspiracy.

    My bad - the way I put that suggested an SF social media war-room directing people to online polls and so on, which wasn't really what I was talking about (although it's true for the Israeli hawks).

    All of the things I mentioned are essentially reflexes which I'd see as motivating individual members, and quite possibly groups of friends/acquaintances who would might well call each other onto polls and comment threads. It's organic rather than orchestrated, but it's driven by the same sense of being involved in something more existential than mere party politics that drives Israeli hawks.

    cordially,
    Scofflaw

    [EDIT]I think GRMA has covered a fair bit of this in his post. Sorry - had the reply page loaded for a while![/EDIT]


  • #26
    newmug
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,571 ✭✭✭newmug


    I'm always amused by posters who think Boards reflects real, average Irish people. It doesn't. I'm not just talking about political views, I mean any subject, any topic, in any forum on Boards. Boards seems to be mostly populated by middle class Dubliners, most of whom are completely unaware that they lead priveleged lives, and that they would be in the minority on most issues discussed here on Boards were the same discussions to be had in a pub in Westmeath or Clare. One fella on AH yesterday had an epiphany moment when he realised some people grow their own vegtables:rolleyes:. Keeping with the pub theme, Boards is about as reflective of a genuine Irish pub as those tourist yipe-and-begorrah type places you find in every major world city.

    Boards is skewed, it is not the national thermometer for ordinary Irish peoples views or opinions.


  • #27
    Scofflaw
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,283 ✭✭✭✭Scofflaw


    newmug wrote: »
    I'm always amused by posters who think Boards reflects real, average Irish people. It doesn't. I'm not just talking about political views, I mean any subject, any topic, in any forum on Boards. Boards seems to be mostly populated by middle class Dubliners, most of whom are completely unaware that they lead priveleged lives, and that they would be in the minority on most issues discussed here on Boards were the same discussions to be had in a pub in Westmeath or Clare. One fella on AH yesterday had an epiphany moment when he realised some people grow their own vegtables:rolleyes:. Keeping with the pub theme, Boards is about as reflective of a genuine Irish pub as those tourist yipe-and-begorrah type places you find in every major world city.

    Boards is skewed, it is not the national thermometer for ordinary Irish peoples views or opinions.

    Shrug - it remains more representative of the country than any other part of the Irish internet. The general election Boards poll was very close to the real result, and the levels of voting reached up to something like 3-4 in 1000 of the electorate in some constituencies.

    After all, a very large proportion of the people in Ireland are middle-class urbanites.

    cordially,
    Scofflaw


  • #28
    newmug
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,571 ✭✭✭newmug


    Scofflaw wrote: »
    Shrug - it remains more representative of the country than any other part of the Irish internet. The general election Boards poll was very close to the real result, and the levels of voting reached up to something like 3-4 in 1000 of the electorate in some constituencies.

    After all, a very large proportion of the people in Ireland are middle-class urbanites.

    cordially,
    Scofflaw


    I'd say its about 70/30 average, non-internet using rural Irishpeople versus middle class urbanite Irishpeople. That still gives a skewed result.


  • #29
    Scofflaw
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,283 ✭✭✭✭Scofflaw


    newmug wrote: »
    I'd say its about 70/30 average, non-internet using rural Irishpeople versus middle class urbanite Irishpeople. That still gives a skewed result.

    ABC1 is 40% of the population, and if you included C2 - skilled manual and manual with responsibility for other people, who in Ireland are hardly classic working class - then you're looking at 63% of the population. Roughly the same figure - 62% - for urbanisation, and I'm not sure the urbanisation figures include the displaced urbanites in the 'commuter counties' around Dublin.

    cordially,
    Scofflaw


  • #30
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    LordSutch wrote: »
    Certainly on boards.ie polls SF always seem to be close to (or ahead) of the real leaders, the last general election springs to mind when there were twelve SF threads running simultaneously spanning three or four forums (Fine Gael only had two or three threads about them at the time) I even posted comments at the time questioning just why so many SF threads were popping up so often, and with so many new SF posters too!.

    And I answered your post, if I recall, by by pointing out that many of those threads were started with an anti-Sinn Fein theme by posters who were clearly not pro-Sinn Fein.
    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=71469550&postcount=93


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  • #31
    LordSutch
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,078 ✭✭✭✭LordSutch


    Nodin wrote: »
    And I answered your post, if I recall, by by pointing out that many of those threads were started with an anti-Sinn Fein theme by posters who were clearly not pro-Sinn Fein.
    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=71469550&postcount=93

    Good memory there N, but what I am saying in this thread (post#23) is that boards.ie was up to its armpits at one stage with SF threads just prior to the last election. I don't know who started them, Pro SF or Anti SF, but they were popping up at an alarmimg rate pre the last election, and the election before that, if you looked into boards.ie it was wall to wall Sinn Fein threads in after hours & Politics, which begs the question "Why the disproportionate rate of SF threads/posts" if they are/were only the 4th largest party in the State.

    Pro SF threads/ Anti SF threads, they all keep SF in the limelight, which obviously hasn't done them any harm in online polls.


  • #32
    pablomakaveli
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,752 ✭✭✭pablomakaveli


    GRMA wrote: »

    I always discouraged people from debating politics online (unless its something they really like to do)and especially on politics.ie. Its pretty much a waste of time.. People who talk politics online generally already have their minds made up and discussions are a series of attempts at oneupmanship (certainly here and p.ie, there are one or two sites which are different and mutually beneficial discussion takes place). Even people who claim to be "independent" have their minds made up. They are the "everybody is wrong but me/I wish a party existed that I agreed with" crowd. By engaging in debate you are not going to win over new supporters or members. "Ordinary" people, the kind of people you want to join, don't read these sites, or at least not in any real worthwhile numbers. Time is better spent elsewhere.

    Just out of curiosity why are you on Boards engaging in debates like this if you see it as pointless?


  • #33
    Debator
    Site Banned Posts: 95 ✭✭Debator


    pablomakaveli wrote: »
    Just out of curiosity why are you on Boards engaging in debates like this if you see it as pointless?

    +1. I'd also like to know this.
    And could GRMA also explain why he used to be a member of SF? What made him disillusioned with the party?

    Good to see he acknowledges that SF actively send text messages to their members to prompt them to action. Do other political parties do this?


  • #34
    GRMA
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,417 ✭✭✭GRMA


    Not everyone has Internet or uses it regularly to check emails. Sending out texts about meeting times etc is usually the best thing to do. I imagine most party's do it. It's easier and quicker than doing a ring around. Why the surprise ? How do you think party's keep in touch with membership?

    When I say it's pointless I mean from the pov of getting new supporters etc. I do it because I enjoy it and sometimes I benefit from it in terms of developing my own politics.

    Why did I leave Sinn Fein? It always annoyed me when people left if they aired laundry in the public. I won't be doing so. Pretty amicable split however, and I still vote for SF


  • #35
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    LordSutch wrote: »
    Good memory there N, but what I am saying in this thread (post#23) is that boards.ie was up to its armpits at one stage with SF threads just prior to the last election. I don't know who started them, Pro SF or Anti SF, but they were popping up at an alarmimg rate pre the last election, and the election before that, if you looked into boards.ie it was wall to wall Sinn Fein threads in after hours & Politics, which begs the question "Why the disproportionate rate of SF threads/posts" if they are/were only the 4th largest party in the State.

    Pro SF threads/ Anti SF threads, they all keep SF in the limelight, which obviously hasn't done them any harm in online polls.


    As I recall you were quite clearly claiming they were set up by pro-SF posters and objected to this in quite shrill tones. Theres something of the same inplication here in your post 23 as well. Perhaps if the non-SF or Anti-SF posters didn't get so worked up, there'd be less of these threads overall...


  • #36
    Scofflaw
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,283 ✭✭✭✭Scofflaw


    Nodin wrote: »
    As I recall you were quite clearly claiming they were set up by pro-SF posters and objected to this in quite shrill tones. Theres something of the same inplication here in your post 23 as well. Perhaps if the non-SF or Anti-SF posters didn't get so worked up, there'd be less of these threads overall...

    Let's not go down this particular road.

    moderately,
    Scofflaw


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  • #37
    Sully
    Moderators, Education Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 24,056 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sully


    Its well known that parties have their own 'shills' to watch online discussions and interact anonymously / under pseudo names. Online polls on a lot of sites are showing Sinn Fein lead the way and follow up discussions are always pro-SF and anti-everybody else. Even when it comes to discussions on party members/TDs involvement in the IRA and active involvement within such republican groups. They are a party that can do no wrong in the eyes of some online discussions, even when all the evidence is stacked against them.

    I think this is based on two reasons;
    1) Sinn Fein are better at getting their members online and fighting their corner than other parties,

    2) Other party votes are less inclined to be the ones partaking in online discussions - though, that is interesting seeing as Ogra Fianna Fail and Young Fine Gael have much bigger memberships and bases around the country of young people who would be more 'modern' and online.

    I also think there is a lot of duplication across sites like TheJournal, where commentators and voters just need to be linked to a social media account which can be created in seconds. I suspect a huge amount of duplicate votes and commentators. Plus, most of these online polls can be abused - delete the cookie, start again. In theory, one voter can vote countless of times. Politics.ie was well known for having duplicate accounts over the years, while Boards took a more hardline approach (probably why Political discussions are much much smaller compared to P.ie). So with that in mind, the polls are much less accurate than the professional opinion polls which consistently proven to show a different mood.


  • #38
    Neutronale
    Registered Users Posts: 429 ✭✭Neutronale


    gaffer91 wrote: »
    Support for SF can mainly be explained by the youthful demographics of the website, and the internet in general I would say. Many SF supporters on here are probably young chaps who still think that supporting the 'RA is the mark of a hard man and don't realise how utterly futile an ideology like nationalism is.

    Regarding "shinnerbots" this is probably untrue, but I do admit to getting a good laugh from time to time at the naive SF propaganda that some of the shinners on here spout. While I obviously can't name them for fear of getting into ad hominem territory, some of the posters on here are so indoctrinated with SF's fusion of far left ideology and extreme nationalism that it's quite pitiful. They'll grow out of it hopefully.

    Thats ridiculous, nationalism is still the foremost ideology in the western world.

    FG like nationalism when it gives them a state where their leader can get a higher wage than the British PM :rolleyes:


  • #39
    GRMA
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,417 ✭✭✭GRMA


    Sully wrote: »
    Its well known that parties have their own 'shills' to watch online discussions and interact anonymously / under pseudo names. Online polls on a lot of sites are showing Sinn Fein lead the way and follow up discussions are always pro-SF and anti-everybody else. Even when it comes to discussions on party members/TDs involvement in the IRA and active involvement within such republican groups. They are a party that can do no wrong in the eyes of some online discussions, even when all the evidence is stacked against them.

    I think this is based on two reasons;
    1) Sinn Fein are better at getting their members online and fighting their corner than other parties,

    2) Other party votes are less inclined to be the ones partaking in online discussions - though, that is interesting seeing as Ogra Fianna Fail and Young Fine Gael have much bigger memberships and bases around the country of young people who would be more 'modern' and online.

    I also think there is a lot of duplication across sites like TheJournal, where commentators and voters just need to be linked to a social media account which can be created in seconds. I suspect a huge amount of duplicate votes and commentators. Plus, most of these online polls can be abused - delete the cookie, start again. In theory, one voter can vote countless of times. Politics.ie was well known for having duplicate accounts over the years, while Boards took a more hardline approach (probably why Political discussions are much much smaller compared to P.ie). So with that in mind, the polls are much less accurate than the professional opinion polls which consistently proven to show a different mood.
    baseless paranoia.


  • #40
    Sully
    Moderators, Education Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 24,056 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sully


    GRMA wrote: »
    baseless paranoia.

    Baseless? It has base. Paranoia? Its mostly based on fact and what is well known within politics (of all parties).

    1) It is well known that parties - not just Sinn Fein - watch and at times engage with online discussions. This is common in every walk of life including business.

    2) A quick look on left-based sites like TheJournal would show the strong defensive argument put up by Sinn Fein when it comes to various issues with party members/TDs/Policies and so on. There quiet on non-political issues but where they can push an agenda or defend their own, their in. Based on just looking at various political threads.

    3) Sinn Fein has a mostly young support base (official polls confirm this) and its known that they encourage their members to engage online (known within political circles).

    4) Most youth branches do the same as Sinn Fein, but are not as successful (obviously - online polls suggest by now that Sinn Fein would be leading this country for decades and have a Sinn Fein President of Ireland). Ogra and YFG have consistently been larger organisations of youth voters (Based on an assumption from knowledge within colleges but is more baseless, ill agree, and open to correction)

    5) Its very easy to re-create social media accounts and post again. I could do it on TheJournal five times and may not get noticed. I'm more likely to be spotted on Boards due to stricter and much more active moderation (obvious by simply comparing discussion levels and moderation). Boards.ie doesn't try fuel discussions in certain directions. But even polls on Boards are not accurate, and open to correction / abuse - just a lot less.

    So has a strong base behind it. But because its not singing the praises for Sinn Fein, it going to be shot down. The Shinners would have you believe the online polls are accurate and some oddly have said elections were fixed because 'all the polls said we were winning and all my friends and their friends were voting for Sinn Fein' - same applies in referendums which don't go Sinn Feins way either.

    Also, its a fact and not baseless that Sinn Fein implement austerity and property tax in the North. They are against such in the South. Its a fact that they take orders from a 'foreign body' that they fought against for so many years but are again the South being told what to do (temporarily) from the EU/IMF. Now obviously we can discuss why there are differences in policy implementation - but Sinn Fein are not proposing an alternative similar to what they already do in government in the North. They are 100% opposed in the South because its a popular thing to do - get votes on the background that the government are mean, greedy, power hungry folk that screw you and the hardworking people to the wall. Say you are opposed to this and people will (in theory - but its not working for them) flock in your direction.

    Sinn Fein have proven they are no different to FF/FG/Lab. They claim the same wage, and say they don't. They claim mostly more expenses, and whine about others expenses. The list goes on. They are just like everyone else.


  • #41
    Technoprisoner
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,310 ✭✭✭Technoprisoner


    jimmycrackcorm wrote: »
    I think their popularity simply reflects a viewpoint similar to yours which is a protest view. You don't say you want to vote for their policies, simply just because they are opposing the government.


    either way they are getting my vote.


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  • #42
    Scofflaw
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,283 ✭✭✭✭Scofflaw


    Again, let's keep this to a discussion of the OP rather than moving off into a discussion of Sinn Fein's policies and so on.

    moderately,
    Scofflaw


  • #43
    GRMA
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,417 ✭✭✭GRMA


    Sully wrote: »
    Baseless? It has base. Paranoia? Its mostly based on fact and what is well known within politics (of all parties).

    1) It is well known that parties - not just Sinn Fein - watch and at times engage with online discussions. This is common in every walk of life including business.

    2) A quick look on left-based sites like TheJournal would show the strong defensive argument put up by Sinn Fein when it comes to various issues with party members/TDs/Policies and so on. There quiet on non-political issues but where they can push an agenda or defend their own, their in. Based on just looking at various political threads.

    3) Sinn Fein has a mostly young support base (official polls confirm this) and its known that they encourage their members to engage online (known within political circles).

    4) Most youth branches do the same as Sinn Fein, but are not as successful (obviously - online polls suggest by now that Sinn Fein would be leading this country for decades and have a Sinn Fein President of Ireland). Ogra and YFG have consistently been larger organisations of youth voters (Based on an assumption from knowledge within colleges but is more baseless, ill agree, and open to correction)

    5) Its very easy to re-create social media accounts and post again. I could do it on TheJournal five times and may not get noticed. I'm more likely to be spotted on Boards due to stricter and much more active moderation (obvious by simply comparing discussion levels and moderation). Boards.ie doesn't try fuel discussions in certain directions. But even polls on Boards are not accurate, and open to correction / abuse - just a lot less.

    6)So has a strong base behind it. But because its not singing the praises for Sinn Fein, it going to be shot down. The Shinners would have you believe the online polls are accurate and some oddly have said elections were fixed because 'all the polls said we were winning and all my friends and their friends were voting for Sinn Fein' - same applies in referendums which don't go Sinn Feins way either.

    7)Also, its a fact and not baseless that Sinn Fein implement austerity and property tax in the North. They are against such in the South. Its a fact that they take orders from a 'foreign body' that they fought against for so many years but are again the South being told what to do (temporarily) from the EU/IMF. Now obviously we can discuss why there are differences in policy implementation - but Sinn Fein are not proposing an alternative similar to what they already do in government in the North. They are 100% opposed in the South because its a popular thing to do - get votes on the background that the government are mean, greedy, power hungry folk that screw you and the hardworking people to the wall. Say you are opposed to this and people will (in theory - but its not working for them) flock in your direction.

    8)Sinn Fein have proven they are no different to FF/FG/Lab. They claim the same wage, and say they don't. They claim mostly more expenses, and whine about others expenses. The list goes on. They are just like everyone else.

    1) Not to me. You mean on a party level and not just individual members?

    2) Again do you mean the party have some sort of system set up and tell or even encourage people to engage on sites like that? They don't. Individual members might like to comment however.

    3) Thats not known to me. Thats because it is not true.

    4) So you are saying other parties do the things you allege above, ie getting people to engage online?

    5) Are you saying SF get people to make multiple accounts etc? They dont. Do some individuals set out to do this off their own bat? I dunno, maybe. No one I knew did it, they had better things to do. What would be the point? Sites like p.ie, polls on them etc are in the grand scheme of things not important.

    6) Paranoia. "SF would have you believe" would they? No, they either dont even mention online polls (because they are unimportant) or they would say that they are just online polls which have no meaning. Come on.

    7) Thats all off topic. As well as disingenuous and inaccurate.

    8) See above.


  • #44
    Robbo
    Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 10,571 Mod ✭✭✭✭Robbo


    Around these parts, I personally see nothing to suggest organised SF posting or any sign of direction from above. I have seen over the years, some more organic and limited banding together of certain posters but not for some time.

    I strongly suspected that at one time, some posters (all of whom I believe are no longer with us and are thus unable to defend themselves) practiced something along the lines of the 99 Call as a means of getting negative or blatantly anti-SF threads locked through thread spoiling but that seems to be long gone.


  • #45
    Debator
    Site Banned Posts: 95 ✭✭Debator


    Very interesting post Robbo.
    Isn't there a secret Republican forum on boards where members must be invited? What exactly is discussed there that can't be discussed openly on the Politics forum? Is it possible that the secret forum serves as a rallying point for planning the de-railing of perceived anti-SF/IRA threads?

    Here is an example of one such group that I could find. Irish Republicans. All the members are there for you to see


  • #46
    GRMA
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,417 ✭✭✭GRMA


    Lol!

    I imagine admins can see the forum and would shut it pretty quickly if that was the case

    This thread is ridiculous.

    Ever hear the song "the man from the daily mail"? You're starting to sound like him


  • #47
    Sully
    Moderators, Education Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 24,056 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sully


    Sorry for the delay.
    GRMA wrote: »
    1) Not to me. You mean on a party level and not just individual members?

    Both (at the youth branch level). Not sure how it works and what branches encourage it, like on other parties - some branches are better at it than others.
    2) Again do you mean the party have some sort of system set up and tell or even encourage people to engage on sites like that? They don't. Individual members might like to comment however.

    Not that I was aware off, and I would suspect such a system would be tough to make. But, my understanding was that some branches have encouraged their members to get out and support the party online. I have heard this over the years from people actively involved in youth politics.

    Its just about pointing out party policy and clarifying misconceptions over spreading false information or attacking others. No harm in it.
    3) Thats not known to me. Thats because it is not true.

    Just because you don't know about it, doesn't mean its not true. Unless your an encyclopedia of knowledge and know everything?

    For example; In the January 2013 poll by RedC, Sinn Fein had the third largest percentage of youth voting for them with Fine Gael topping at 25%, Fianna Fail 21% and Sinn Fein 20% (effectively putting FF & SF 'neck and neck' with Youth voters.) In addition, Sinn Fein support was largest amongst the youth vote compared with any other age group (for those voting Sinn Fein).
    4) So you are saying other parties do the things you allege above, ie getting people to engage online?

    Youth branches have encouraged members to get online and engage. I'm aware that all parties do it and even Independents get in on the act. I'm not saying its wrong.
    5) Are you saying SF get people to make multiple accounts etc? They dont. Do some individuals set out to do this off their own bat? I dunno, maybe. No one I knew did it, they had better things to do. What would be the point? Sites like p.ie, polls on them etc are in the grand scheme of things not important.

    Nope, I very much doubt Sinn Fein or any other party would actively encourage their members to get involved in online 'fraud' voting. But its well known that people (not for any particular party) do have multiple accounts on some discussions forums and thus this runs the risk of multiple voting for polls. I have seen on a number of online polls that I can vote multiple times. If I can, so can others. What's to say they wont?

    Thus, these online polls are not accurate.
    6) Paranoia. "SF would have you believe" would they? No, they either dont even mention online polls (because they are unimportant) or they would say that they are just online polls which have no meaning. Come on.

    Paranoia? Or just blindly supporting your party? I have seen multiple posts online from people who say they are Sinn Fein supporters claiming online polls were accurate, claiming that the polls by RedC etc were 'government propaganda' and false. Yet, when an election or referendum comes these online polls are rubbished and the polling by reputable organisations such as RedC are generally accurate.
    7) Thats all off topic. As well as disingenuous and inaccurate.

    Could argue its off topic. Wouldn't say its inaccurate or disingenuous.
    8) See above.

    As above.


  • #48
    GRMA
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,417 ✭✭✭GRMA


    Evidence for you assertion please
    Both (at the youth branch level). Not sure how it works and what branches encourage it, like on other parties - some branches are better at it than others.

    Thats not true, as I said I'm in a better position to know having been a member and involved at that level as well as the main party.


  • #49
    Da Shins Kelly
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,048 ✭✭✭Da Shins Kelly


    I don't know anything about Sinn Fein having people online voting for them in polls or engaging in discussions. I do, however, know quite a few people my own age (early 20s) who are interested in Sinn Fein as a party, much moreso than the likes of Fianna Fail and Fine Gael. Maybe it's romantic notions that appeal to them, or maybe it's simply disillusionment with the other parties (I know that's how I feel about Labour, won't be voting for them again. Never would have voted FF or FG anyway), but Sinn Fein do seem to have have quite a big following among younger people. This is bearing in mind that not every young person interested in politics is going to sign up to the youth section of their chosen party. Maybe older people who still see Sinn Fein as inextricably linked to the IRA see them differently, but that stuff is less important to younger people, I've found. It's got less to do with issues of the past, and more to do with the future. And as we all know, this generation of young people are more tuned into technology and all the outlets of the internet and so are more likely to be vocal in support online. However, perhaps young people are less likely to actually go out and vote? I've no statistics on this, just my own experience.


  • #50
    Sully
    Moderators, Education Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 24,056 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sully


    GRMA wrote: »
    Evidence for you assertion please



    Thats not true, as I said I'm in a better position to know having been a member and involved at that level as well as the main party.

    Well I guess we are going to have to agree to disagree on this one. I can't prove it. I have never been a member of Sinn Fein, just stuff I picked up during my time in politics. Ill just stand by your theory that it doesn't happen as you are more in the know than I am :)


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