Are Irish provinces the most indigenous professional rugby clubs in the world?

totallegend · 25-04-2012 5:07pm

CatFromHue wrote: »

The problem here is that for the HEC QF's we had only 3 Irish qualified props staring out of a possible 6. The only replacement props who made it onto the pitch for these games where White and Van der Mervw. White may eventually become Irish qualified but it won't be for what another two years.

So in total the Irish props made up 37.5% of the total players who played prop in the HEC QFs out of the Irish teams.

That's a pretty bad statistic if you ask me.

While I don't agree with the new IRFU rules in full I think in theory they're a good idea. The IRFU hadn't fully worked out the fine details of it before they released it and they should be admonished (is this the correct word? I don't think I've ever used it before!) for that.

Props props props props props props. Does anyone dispute that the problem of NIQ players is only affecting props?

Can anybody can give me a logical argument as to why the IRFU can't use its existing powers to limit the number of foreign props?

CIARAN_BOYLE · 25-04-2012 5:17pm

Deleted User wrote: »

What methods would we use to decide who gets to have a TH NIQ when the rule comes into force that could be unbiased / deemed fair?

When Afoa's contract runs out Leinster gets first chance to sign a NIQ TH since they will have had the longest time without a NIQ TH.

The province with the international starter gets a NIQ TH as backup to start games where the international isn't available and to come off the bench when he is.

The team with the least NIQs contracted gets first choice to pick a NIQ position for next season.

The Irish management will select the first and second choice TH Irish prop and no one will be able to sign a NIQ prop to compete with their positions in their provinces.

Four different ways and none of them would be really fair and someone of them would worry me. If I had my way each team would have 3+1 NIQs and wouldn't be able to sign more than one player per unit (FR, 2ndRow, BR, halfs, centers, back three) and the contract review board could veto individual signings.

25-04-2012 5:27pm

the problem with loads of these rules, is that for a team to be really competitive, they need more than one option in each spot. By that virtue, so will the Irish squad.

If Leinster supply Ireland with two out-halfs for the next 6N and subsequent international calendar, that's more than 1/4 of the season where we are without those two options. What happens when it's two tight heads from Ulster? And they've no cover available bar a very green academy player? The system will actually reward teams that have IQ players "just below" international consideration.

In specialist positions, cover is needed. Fact. I understand the ideas behind it, but the "bottom line" type of ruling that we've seen isn't going to work without causing resentment and serious difficulties. The system as it is currently "supposed" to be enforced would be far more suitable than the axe wielding effort we're going to see. The board's ability to veto any and all IQ signings should be more than sufficient.

irishbucsfan · 25-04-2012 5:33pm

Merrick Wide Checkbook wrote: »

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Is it? I don't really think so. There are a number of ways to handle it.

You're only guessing that they havent figured it out as well.

Read Justin's answer to thomond...

Leinster and Munster and Ulster are competitors.

They've just been handed a "combined" constraint. There is literally no "fair" way to organise the placements bar random chance.

If we've got random chance decided who can sign whom, then it's not an organisation, it's bingo.

What methods would we use to decide who gets to have a TH NIQ when the rule comes into force that could be unbiased / deemed fair?

A joint committee could easilly decide which signing to allow based on needs. And in a situation where teams are desperate they could also easilly be allowed to push the restrictions as they have done in the past.

It's no disaster. The fact we are that dependant on foreign players to an extent where some people are so terrified by the prospect of relying on Irish players in only 2/3 provinces is a complete joke. That has to change if we ever want to be taken seriously as a tier 1 rugby nation. The safety net of NIQ players is strangling our international prospects and when the IRFU loosen its hold we will all see the benefits.

totallegend · 25-04-2012 5:44pm

irishbucsfan wrote: »

That has to change if we ever want to be taken seriously as a tier 1 rugby nation. The safety net of NIQ players is strangling our international prospects and when the IRFU loosen its hold we will all see the benefits.

That is bollocks, frankly. It was Declan Kidney's scapegoat after the failures of the World Cup and Six Nations but it's disingenuous bordering on outright lies. Poor coaching and team selection prevents us from being a tier 1 nation, but that's another day's work.

I'm still waiting for an answer to the following:

totallegend wrote:

Props props props props props props. Does anyone dispute that the problem of NIQ players is only affecting props?

Can anybody can give me a logical argument as to why the IRFU can't use its existing powers to limit the number of foreign props?

jacothelad · 25-04-2012 5:46pm

Province A in 2014 signs a very good NIE tight head.
Province B in 2014 loses one and isn't allowed another. They have 2 reasonable Irish guys but after that the cupboard is bare. They are doing well in the Heineken Cup but sadly lose both guys to long term injury. No NIE props can be signed as injury replacements. Step forward the Academy props. Whoop de do. Party time all round then. Now that's what I call contingency planning....not.
Pprovince C did have an NIE tight head but his contract is also up and can't be renewed. Neither can they sign another. Their reliable Irish tight head moves to France for the dosh. They have 4 Irish tight heads who between them couldn't prop up a clothes line. They get beaten out the gate in every scrum and penalised off the park. What do they do? From whence do they materialise the props of the required standard? Do they go to the Irish Prop Bank and borrow one or two?...Oh! hang on, there isn't a big room with a load of props hanging on a wall for the teams to pick. The IRFU have got many things right over the years but this stuff is just crazy. They need to allow the provinces to be professional sides who can compete within the player restrictions already in place.

It doesn't matter which specialist position it is although prop and hooker are obviously more crucial and more 'dangerous' for incompetent / unable / young players.

As for this weekends games, there will be 8 props in the two Irish sides, 6 of which will be Irish including 3 genuine tight heads. One of course is very young and another one may as well be a saggar makers bottom knocker as far as Kidney is concerned.

JustinDee · 25-04-2012 5:51pm

totallegend wrote: »

That is bollocks, frankly. It was Declan Kidney's scapegoat after the failures of the World Cup and Six Nations but it's disingenuous bordering on outright lies. Poor coaching and team selection prevents us from being a tier 1 nation, but that's another day's work

It isn't bollocks. Not in the slightest nor is it to do with these alleged "lies" of yours. It is your opinion that the coaches are rubbish and that the selectors are equally rubbish.

Why oppose a move with solid guidelines and parameters aimed to improve the player depth in every position amongst three Irish provinces? If the current method is allowing the current situation to prevail, it is an obvious fact that something needs to change to curtail the situation.
You'd object to a ruling preventing spots being taken up by non-Irish qualified players yet wouldn't object to a prevention by the PAG?
Nobody is blocking non-Irish players completely. Just making sure that there is an avenue for players that are Irish qualified to develop.

irishbucsfan · 25-04-2012 6:10pm

totallegend wrote: »

That is bollocks, frankly. It was Declan Kidney's scapegoat after the failures of the World Cup and Six Nations but it's disingenuous bordering on outright lies. Poor coaching and team selection prevents us from being a tier 1 nation, but that's another day's work.

I'm still waiting for an answer to the following:

I'm not going to deny that coaching hasn't been great. I say that all the time on here. Has nothing to do with this discussion though. Either way there is absolutely nothing Kidney can do when there is only one Irish tight head playing with any regularity in the world at the moment.

As for why they can't use the existing setup, are you saying you'd prefer they just make this massive change in approach without announcing it? Is it not obvious why they have to announce it?

irishbucsfan · 25-04-2012 6:13pm

jacothelad wrote: »

Province A in 2014 signs a very good NIE tight head.
Province B in 2014 loses one and isn't allowed another. They have 2 reasonable Irish guys but after that the cupboard is bare. They are doing well in the Heineken Cup but sadly lose both guys to long term injury. No NIE props can be signed as injury replacements. Step forward the Academy props. Whoop de do. Party time all round then. Now that's what I call contingency planning....not.
Pprovince C did have an NIE tight head but his contract is also up and can't be renewed. Neither can they sign another. Their reliable Irish tight head moves to France for the dosh. They have 4 Irish tight heads who between them couldn't prop up a clothes line. They get beaten out the gate in every scrum and penalised off the park. What do they do? From whence do they materialise the props of the required standard? Do they go to the Irish Prop Bank and borrow one or two?...Oh! hang on, there isn't a big room with a load of props hanging on a wall for the teams to pick. The IRFU have got many things right over the years but this stuff is just crazy. They need to allow the provinces to be professional sides who can compete within the player restrictions already in place.

It doesn't matter which specialist position it is although prop and hooker are obviously more crucial and more 'dangerous' for incompetent / unable / young players.

As for this weekends games, there will be 8 props in the two Irish sides, 6 of which will be Irish including 3 genuine tight heads. One of course is very young and another one may as well be a saggar makers bottom knocker as far as Kidney is concerned.

If there were two long term injuries to props, I'm sure an exception can be made. It'd be extremely exceptional circumstances.

Podge_irl · 25-04-2012 6:15pm

JustinDee wrote: »

You'd object to a ruling preventing spots being taken up by non-Irish qualified players yet wouldn't object to a prevention by the PAG?.

Because the new regulations strike most people as draconian and frankly stupid. There are systems already in place to limit the number of foreigners and the PAG or whoever can already stop teams signing players - witness Hines not being offered a new contract. Bringing in such a rigid framework could potentially be counter-productive and if it causes the likes of Nacewa to have to leave then its ridiculous. If Leinster get around the system be re-signing him in a different position or some such tactic then it also makes the rules pointless if they can be worked around that way.

There is also the issue that merely limiting NIQs isn't going to solve anything in and of itself. Witness the enormous amount of time and effort that was put into developing Buckley, yet for all that he remained a sub-standard prop.

Winters · 25-04-2012 7:00pm

In hindsight the IRFU should have stated that the new rulings would effect incoming NIQ players only and would not affect the NIQ players in situ.

Also, I didnt see the point that Wigglewoth and Browne had to have a press conference about it. If they were taking it so seriously you'd think he'd a worn a tie to it FFS!

Cpt_Blackbeard · 25-04-2012 11:40pm

irishbucsfan wrote: »

If there were two long term injuries to props, I'm sure an exception can be made. It'd be extremely exceptional circumstances.

Wasn't the abolishment of NIE medical jokers one of the main points of the announcement? Its one of the reasons why I was quick to criticise the signing of Thorn (Terblanch is a similar case, but it occurred before the announcement), as it wasn't the time to take advantage of the system IMO. The ability to bring in medical jokers in case of an injury crisis, to provide essential squad cover, is an extremely important facility. Without it, we could likely see the provinces lose out on HEC/Rabo knockout revenue, due to the unavoidable misfortune of injury.

irishbucsfan · 25-04-2012 11:54pm

Cpt_Blackbeard wrote: »

Wasn't the abolishment of NIE medical jokers one of the main points of the announcement? Its one of the reasons why I was quick to criticise the signing of Thorn (Terblanch is a similar case, but it occurred before the announcement), as it wasn't the time to take advantage of the system IMO. The ability to bring in medical jokers in case of an injury crisis, to provide essential squad cover, is an extremely important facility. Without it, we could likely see the provinces lose out on HEC/Rabo knockout revenue, due to the unavoidable misfortune of injury.

I'm talking about Jaco's example of a team being left with only academy front row players, which could potentially be detrimental to their development. I'd say in that case they could make an exception.

The idea behind the no jokers thing is that Leinster signed Thorn because they would be so desperate for 2nd rows in the Heineken cup. And now Thorn is playing ahead of two fully fit Irish players who are both in great form and who deserve better. Not that I'm complaining, just looking at it from the IRFUs perspective

CatFromHue · 28-04-2012 1:27am

Deleted User wrote: »

and clearly still haven't. It still doesn't make sense.

There is no carrot, only a stick.

Is the cash that the IRFU distribute to the provinces not a bit of a carrot?

jacothelad · 29-04-2012 10:07am

CatFromHue wrote: »

Is the cash that the IRFU distribute to the provinces not a bit of a carrot?

What else would they do with the cash? The provinces actually are the IRFU and vice versa. They are not separate entities. They are symbiotic.

[Jackass] · 29-04-2012 10:28am

I'd imagine the provinces generate a significant amount of Revenue for the IRFU. It might not be as much as the national team, but combined, it wouldn't be far off (speculating, not stating fact).

I think the Thorn signing was a little bit cheeky, especially with Leo making a quicker than expected recovery after. But I would rather the scenario where these short term deals could be done and the provinces prosper than to have to throw in an academy lad and get knocked out of competitions and force a young player to be completely out of his depth, which I fail to see any development benefit from.

CIARAN_BOYLE · 29-04-2012 11:53am

[Jackass] wrote: »

I'd imagine the provinces generate a significant amount of Revenue for the IRFU. It might not be as much as the national team, but combined, it wouldn't be far off (speculating, not stating fact).

Someone else has 'stated fact' that the international game produces 81% of revenue for the union but to be honest I don't really buy that since it relies on IRFU accounts which claims that total provincial income is 9 million between the four provinces.

We all know that ERC television income is around 5 million a year (The IRFU has told us this when campaigning against FTA) so the combined ticket sales for all four provinces is 4 million euro and I really don't buy that.

crisco10 · 29-04-2012 12:26pm

CIARAN_BOYLE wrote: »

Someone else has 'stated fact' that the international game produces 81% of revenue for the union but to be honest I don't really buy that since it relies on IRFU accounts which claims that total provincial income is 9 million between the four provinces.

We all know that ERC television income is around 5 million a year (The IRFU has told us this when campaigning against FTA) so the combined ticket sales for all four provinces is 4 million euro and I really don't buy that.

Seriously? they surely can't mean that figure? Think about it, Leinster have what say 12000k season ticket holders? Each pays AT LEAST €240 a year. thats 2.8 million already! So its defo more if you consider only a small fraction of STH are terrace dwellers paying the cheapest price.

Assume Munster, Ulster and Connacht would be able to come up with similar numbers for their STH alone...

Agree with your not buying that.

totallegend · 29-04-2012 12:28pm

CIARAN_BOYLE wrote: »

Someone else has 'stated fact' that the international game produces 81% of revenue for the union but to be honest I don't really buy that since it relies on IRFU accounts which claims that total provincial income is 9 million between the four provinces.

We all know that ERC television income is around 5 million a year (The IRFU has told us this when campaigning against FTA) so the combined ticket sales for all four provinces is 4 million euro and I really don't buy that.

Yeah, it just doesn't add up so the argument is invalid.

Now, if you say that the €9 million figure is the amount of money kicked into central coffers by the provinces, rather than the total income of the provinces, then it's possible.

As was stated earlier, Leinster have about 14,000 season ticket holders; if you say that a ST costs an average of €300, that's €4.2 million. IIRC, Munster have about 12,000 and Ulster 4,000 (not sure about Connacht). Add to that additional ticket sales, like Leinster filling the Aviva three times over this season, Munster's HC games at Thomond, merchandise, sponsorship and whatever pittance they get for Rabo tv rights, you're looking at multiples of the figures quoted as 'stated fact'.

The argument is of course that they're all branches of the same organisation, which is of course correct, but since we had Munster announcing a deficit last week, there are clearly separate accounts being kept, so basing the argument on an incomplete set of figures is nonsense.

Are Irish provinces the most indigenous professional rugby clubs in the world?

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