Keep abortion out of Ireland

hattoncracker · 25-02-2012 2:06am

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

If anything, the self righteousness and moral indignation pushes me further towards the opposit e pole of thinking from yours. It;s the people that make such an effort of forcign their opinions on others that make me want to stop beign so lazy come election or referendum times and make sure I get off my arse and vote, maybe every do some campaigning to make sure other similar minded people do the same.

+1..

I'd take time off work to go vote for this, and I've never voted before in my life!

JimiTime · 25-02-2012 2:08am

hattoncracker wrote: »

JimiTime:

Abortion is not a light decision for anyone. you've obviously never been in that position so you have no place to comment on that.

Maybe you could point out where I said it was? maybe you mistook my comment about a doctor making a decision for a comment about a would be mother?

But as a point of note, I only know two women who have had abortions, and on both accounts, it WAS a pretty light decision. It was as simple, and as matter of fact as, "We're just not ready for kids". Don't get me wrong, they weren't thrilled about going in to do it, but for selfish reasons I.E. The procedure is not pleasant. Now, I don't use these cases to generalise what people who have abortions think or feel, but it certainly poo poo's your point about abortion not being a light decision for anyone. As shocking as it may be, it is just that for some.

goz83 · 25-02-2012 2:08am

hattoncracker wrote: »

+1..

I'd take time off work to go vote for this, and I've never voted before in my life!

If you did vote, you'd be kickin yourself anyway. Bloody government....They put out one hand to offer to help you up and then they kick you in the nuts when you accept their hand.

wonderfulname · 25-02-2012 2:08am

Festus wrote: »

All I'm saying is that you wouldn't care if your grandchildren were aborted. Right?

Might I ask what place a parent has in making long term decisions for their adult children? It has absolutely nothing to do with them.

Keylem wrote: »

By violating her baby's body through abortion, the mother would be no better than the person who violated her body through rape, in fact it may be worse, as one is the killing of another human being!

What a lovely sentiment, seriously, just beautiful, shows such Christian compassion and understanding for other human beings. Do you really deem that an acceptable way for someone who views themselves as Christian to speak of others?

What's wrong with bringing a bit of humanity into the hardline arguments? This kind of stuff is absolutely disgusting, how is anyone meant to listen to the moral position who would speak about a victim as such? I could easily argue the case against abortion for rape victims, even though I only agree with it as an option alongside it's opposite, and I could do it with respect and consideration.

Festus · 25-02-2012 2:09am

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

If anything, the self righteousness and moral indignation pushes me further towards the opposit e pole of thinking from yours. It;s the people that make such an effort of forcign their opinions on others that make me want to stop beign so lazy come election or referendum times and make sure I get off my arse and vote, maybe every do some campaigning to make sure other similar minded people do the same.

You don't have to read what I write if you don't like it. That's your choice.

I'm not forcing my opinion on you. It's your choice to read it.

You're the one who thinks it's ok to murder innocent babies, as long as they're not yours.

I want to stop that kind of thinking becoming law. That's my choice.

Guy:Incognito · 25-02-2012 2:11am

Festus wrote: »

I'm not forcing my opinion on you. It's your choice to read it.
.

By removing or blocking someones choice on abortion because you dont believe in it you are forcing your opinions on others.

Guy:Incognito · 25-02-2012 2:13am

Festus wrote: »

You're the one who thinks it's ok to murder innocent babies, as long as they're not yours. .

When did I say its ok as long as its not mine? I want me and my partner to have the choice of whether or not to do it . I'd just choose not to. She happens to share my opinion. I could just as easily have met someone that would do it. I'm sure theres plenty of men walking around now not knowing that a former partner had an abortion and it hasnt affected their lives by not knowing.

Festus · 25-02-2012 2:16am

wonderfulname wrote: »

Might I ask what place a parent has in making long term decisions for their adult children? It has absolutely nothing to do with them.

There are laws our grandparents and great grandparents made that are affecting us and will affect out grandchildren.

Likewise there are laws we will be involved in making now - NAMA and the current austerity measures would be a good example from a different perspective - that will affect generations to come.

That's the way the world works.

goz83 · 25-02-2012 2:16am

Festus wrote: »

You don't have to read what I write if you don't like it. That's your choice.

I'm not forcing my opinion on you. It's your choice to read it.

You're the one who thinks it's ok to murder innocent babies, as long as they're not yours.

I want to stop that kind of thinking becoming law. That's my choice.

All things aside Festus; Your tone is both disgusting as well as provoking and does nothing to persuade anyone towards your view. Abortion is, in my opinion wrong, but I do understand that sometimes, some people find it necessary and that is "their choice". Throwing "murder" at them is just wrong. If you feel that strongly about protecting the unborn, then I suggest this is not the place to get anything done. Get up and be productive.

lmaopml · 25-02-2012 2:16am

wonderfulname wrote: »

In general, yes, grey areas make bad laws for grey wording, but confusingly enough you can address the grey areas in black and white, just because it has not been done here does not mean it cannot be.

Lets take the substantial risk to the life of the mother thing, if the words substantial and risk are clearly defined that concept can work as intended, or as presented. I already mentioned the doctrine of double effect, that could be deemed to be a foray into the grey on the part of Catholicism, but despite that it still makes it very clear what is acceptable and what is not in situations which are about as far from black and white as moral decisions can get.

As for my own position on abortion, I'm not sure of it overall, but I do believe if a woman is likely to die (as measured by a specified degree of probability evident from medical knowledge) without an abortion, it's just inhumane to withhold it in this country, the idea that we do this to women quite disgusts me in fact, how can defending it be deemed morally right?

As it stands, and in reality the womans life and that of the childs is weighed carefully by medical staff. These decisions are made every single day, but not in a 'news worthy' way - So too is making the passing from life to death made easy by medical means too - but not by Euthansia - just by pain killing and family love -

The problem is, that when legislation is introduced where a prospective mums diagnosis overides that of a new life for any given thing, and I'm not talking hard cases or the 'Trojan Horse' - well who gets to say how valuable a child is? Who dares to introduce or open that gate? Where does it lead...? We've come so far from that already..

I don't know, all I do know is that it's not for me, or something I would like to see legislated for in the country I own now, but my offspring will inherit and it's shape will take the form of my decision along with those I stand on the shoulders of too. I don't feel the need to conform, I think there 'must' be a better way, and I'm willing to look for it, just as willing as I am to support a social welfare state by working to the best of my ability to sustain it.

Guy:Incognito · 25-02-2012 2:18am

Festus wrote: »

There are laws our grandparents and great grandparents made that are affecting us and will affect out grandchildren.
.

Laws need to be updated and changed as the world does. Ireland is thankfully a much different place than it was when my grandparents were my age.

Just to brign in a similar but different angle since its mentioned above, I also very much support a person right to euthanasia.

Festus · 25-02-2012 2:19am

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

When did I say its ok as long as its not mine?

when you said this...

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

I wouldnt want my girlfriend to ever get an abortion but I'm very much pro choice.

Festus · 25-02-2012 2:21am

goz83 wrote: »

All things aside Festus; Your tone is both disgusting as well as provoking and does nothing to persuade anyone towards your view. Abortion is, in my opinion wrong, but I do understand that sometimes, some people find it necessary and that is "their choice". Throwing "murder" at them is just wrong. If you feel that strongly about protecting the unborn, then I suggest this is not the place to get anything done. Get up and be productive.

In your opinion. Ifyou don't like my tone that's fine. Put me on your ignore list. It's your choice to read me.

Unfortunatley abortion is disgusting and in fact is murder. That is the reality of it. All that abortion produces is dead babies, broken mothers and wealthy "doctors".

goz83 · 25-02-2012 2:21am

Festus wrote: »

when you said this...

That doesn't add up...

Guy:Incognito · 25-02-2012 2:22am

Festus wrote: »

when you said this...

Thats not the same as what your making out to be. I want to have the choice. I'd just choose not to. No one is going to force me and my girlfriend to have an abortion because I vote for people to be allowed choose. Thats the beauty of choice.

hattoncracker · 25-02-2012 2:24am

JimiTime wrote: »

Maybe you could point out where I said it was? maybe you mistook my comment about a doctor making a decision for a comment about a would be mother?

But as a point of note, I only know two women who have had abortions, and on both accounts, it WAS a pretty light decision. It was as simple, and as matter of fact as, "We're just not ready for kids". Don't get me wrong, they weren't thrilled about going in to do it, but for selfish reasons I.E. The procedure is not pleasant. Now, I don't use these cases to generalise what people who have abortions think or feel, but it certainly poo poo's your point about abortion not being a light decision for anyone. As shocking as it may be, it is just that for some.

What you see as a 'light decision' I do not. That's your opinion. My opinion is that it is totally morally irresponsible to bring a life into the world that you're not ready for and can't take care of.

You keep talking about the foetus as a child, a life. Well some people who have abortions view it as a life too, something that is a massive undertaking, and not to be treated with an 'ah, it'll all be fine if I love it enough!' attitude. In the real world that doesn't work.

Having children is not supposed to be taken lightly, it's not supposed to be done just so people can claim benefits and get a bigger house (and that is done in this country by a reprehensible few), it's should be planned, saved for, and some people who get pregnant would rather be more prepared for it. The decision to carry out a pregnancy or not should not be taken out of the hands of the parents because quite frankly, other people are not in the situation and the only people that know what is best for their lives is the pregnant woman and her partner.
It's not irresponsible, it's not easy, but in some cases making the hard choice is the right one. And it is a hard choice for most, no matter what you think you know. You have never been in that position. You never will because it would never be an option for you. That is fine, I respect that.

But I can 100% guarantee that the decision your friends made was not an easy one.

Some people see parenthood as took big a commitment to enter, and they end it. That is just as responsible and respectable a choice as having it.

You choose to keep it, good on you and I hope it works out well, but you should be able to choose not to.

Plowman · 25-02-2012 2:25am

This post has been deleted.

Festus · 25-02-2012 2:26am

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

Laws need to be updated and changed as the world does. Ireland is thankfully a much different place than it was when my grandparents were my age.

Have you ever considered that if abortion was legal when your grandparents were alive that you might not be here to have your own kids?

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

Just to brign in a similar but different angle since its mentioned above, I also very much support a person right to euthanasia.

No suprise there. Euthanasia is still murder.

Have you considered being eutheaased? Perhaps your children or grandchildren might get tired of waiting for you to pop your clogs so they can get their inheritance and euthenasia could provide them with the means to get to it sooner. All they need is the legal right and a doctor to rubber stamp a certificate saying you qualify.

goz83 · 25-02-2012 2:27am

Festus wrote: »

In your opinion. Ifyou don't like my tone that's fine. Put me on your ignore list. It's your choice to read me.

Unfortunatley abortion is disgusting and in fact is murder. That is the reality of it. All that abortion produces is dead babies, broken mothers and wealthy "doctors".

And the murder would be "your" fact of course. The fact is that "murder" is normally a crime people go to jail for. So, if this was fact and abortion was seen as murder by law makers...oh well lets just say in England...then wouldn't the aborting mothers be sent to jail for murder? And the wealthy doctors for being an accessory to murder? Opinions are not facts, but yes, abortion is disgusting and wrong. It would, in my opinion, be a bigger wrong to allow a pregnant woman to die from a pregnancy and perhaps leave other young children behind, for the sake/hope of saving her unborn child. I am of the opinion that sometimes the child is better not to be born into certain circumstances where legislation and lack of morality is guaranteed to provide for miserable lives of those who are fostered into criminality and "murder".

Guy:Incognito · 25-02-2012 2:27am

Plowman wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

The choice to not be a mother can fairly redundant too without the option of abortion if someone is the victim of rape.

Guy:Incognito · 25-02-2012 2:33am

Festus wrote: »

Have you ever considered that if abortion was legal when your grandparents were alive that you might not be here to have your own kids..

If I never existed I cant see me having lost too much sleep over it.

Festus wrote: »

No suprise there. Euthanasia is still murder..

But were we not talking the mother making a choice with lives and bodies that they werent entitled to because they werent their own (the baby). So you should'nt be allowed make a decision on a body and life thats wholely your own either?

Maybe when your lieing in a hospital bed in agony for the 5th or 6th month in a row waiting to die your opinion may be swayed?

Festus wrote: »

Have you considered being eutheaased? Perhaps your children or grandchildren might get tired of waiting for you to pop your clogs so they can get their inheritance and euthenasia could provide them with the means to get to it sooner. All they need is the legal right and a doctor to rubber stamp a certificate saying you qualify..

Yes, Switzerland is full of people beine dragged kicking and screaming in to rooms to be offed while their kids laugh maniacally while rubbing their hands together.

Festus · 25-02-2012 2:33am

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

Thats not the same as what your making out to be. I want to have the choice. I'd just choose not to. No one is going to force me and my girlfriend to have an abortion because I vote for people to be allowed choose. Thats the beauty of choice.

You want to have the choice so you can choose not to. Brilliant logic.

If you are going to choose not to then the absence of the choice you are not going to make is immaterial.

The thing of it is the issue of abortion is nothing to do with choice. Choice is a personal matter that should affect one person and one person only. I choose to eat. I choose to drink. I choose to sleep. I choose to defecate.
I choose to micturate. I choose to read Festus. The choices we make in these matters can affect our health.

If the law is changed such that we are allowed to choose to kill people, well that's different.

Guy:Incognito · 25-02-2012 2:34am

Festus wrote: »

You want to have the choice so you can choose not to. Brilliant logic..

It is actually. Why should I be dictated too? Theres lots of things in life I can do but choose not to, should they all be made illegal?

I respect others right to have the same choice.

JimiTime · 25-02-2012 2:34am

hattoncracker wrote: »

What you see as a 'light decision' I do not. That's your opinion. My opinion is that it is totally morally irresponsible to bring a life into the world that you're not ready for and can't take care of..

With the utmost of respect, I find such reasoning absolutely warped. Not only that, but if someone is pregnant, the life is already in the world.

wonderfulname · 25-02-2012 2:38am

Festus wrote: »

There are laws our grandparents and great grandparents made that are affecting us and will affect out grandchildren.

Likewise there are laws we will be involved in making now - NAMA and the current austerity measures would be a good example from a different perspective - that will affect generations to come.

That's the way the world works.

But that's not relevant at all to your point, all legalising abortion would do is give your children a choice, what they do with that in their adult life has nothing to do with you.

How current economical measures affect us in future does not give people any choice, so sure, feel free to point to how it will affect you emotionally if your offspring are impacted by it, but that doesn't translate to issues such as this.

goz83 · 25-02-2012 2:38am

Festus wrote: »

You want to have the choice so you can choose not to. Brilliant logic.

If you are going to choose not to then the absence of the choice you are not going to make is immaterial.

The thing of it is the issue of abortion is nothing to do with choice. Choice is a personal matter that should affect one person and one person only. I choose to eat. I choose to drink. I choose to sleep. I choose to defecate.
I choose to micturate. I choose to read Festus. The choices we make in these matters can affect our health.

If the law is changed such that we are allowed to choose to kill people, well that's different.

Not one choice made by anyone is innocent of having no affect on another. The ripple may be small, but it is still a ripple.

hattoncracker · 25-02-2012 2:38am

Festus wrote: »

You want to have the choice so you can choose not to. Brilliant logic.

If you are going to choose not to then the absence of the choice you are not going to make is immaterial.

The thing of it is the issue of abortion is nothing to do with choice. Choice is a personal matter that should affect one person and one person only. I choose to eat. I choose to drink. I choose to sleep. I choose to defecate.
I choose to micturate. I choose to read Festus. The choices we make in these matters can affect our health.

If the law is changed such that we are allowed to choose to kill people, well that's different.

Foetuses aren't people. They're not biologically defined as such until they can survive outside the womb. You can't murder them.

Festus · 25-02-2012 2:40am

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

But were we not talking the mother making a choice with lives and bodies that they werent entitled to because they werent their own (the baby). So you should'nt be allowed make a decision on a body and life thats wholely your own either?

Either you don't read very well or you do not have much of an understanding of human biology.

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

Maybe when your lieing in a hospital bed in agony for the 5th or 6th month in a row waiting to die your opinion may be swayed?

Well, I'm a Catholic who believes the most extreme suffering on earth is nothing compared to the least suffering in Purgatory or the punishment of Hell so I'd probably do my best to hang on as long as I could.

Before you consider a response to that bear in mind which forum you are in and what the Charter says.

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

Yes, Switzerland is full of people beine dragged kicking and screaming in to rooms to be offed while their kids laugh maniacally while rubbing their hands together.

Yes it is. At last we agree on something

Festus · 25-02-2012 2:41am

hattoncracker wrote: »

Foetuses aren't people. They're not biologically defined as such until they can survive outside the womb. You can't murder them.

They are human beings therefore to kill them by a premeditated and deliberate act is murder.

gimmebroadband · 25-02-2012 2:42am

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

The choice to not be a mother can fairly redundant too without the option of abortion if someone is the victim of rape.

She would still be a mother.......of a dead baby!

Festus · 25-02-2012 2:42am

goz83 wrote: »

Not one choice made by anyone is innocent of having no affect on another. The ripple may be small, but it is still a ripple.

Ripples don't kill people. Tsunamis do.

hattoncracker · 25-02-2012 2:43am

Festus wrote: »

hattoncracker wrote: »

Foetuses aren't people. They're not biologically defined as such until they can survive outside the womb. You can't murder them.

They are human beings therefore to kill them by a premeditated and deliberate act is murder.

Biologically, they are not. You don't call an egg a chick.

Guy:Incognito · 25-02-2012 2:44am

Festus wrote: »

Well, I'm a Catholic who believes the most extreme suffering on earth is nothing compared to the least suffering in Purgatory or the punishment of Hell so I'd probably do my best to hang on as long as I could.

Before you consider a response to that bear in mind which forum you are in and what the Charter says.

I dont believe in any of that so I'm good to not see out the worst days of my existence in agonising pain draining money that could be possibly better used to help sick people that can have a usefull life.

gimmebroadband wrote: »

She would still be a mother.......of a dead baby!

Ah the pause for dramatic effect. :rolleyes:

It may come as a surprise but not everyone shares your view. Quite a lot dont see themselves as mother until they want to be.

goz83 · 25-02-2012 2:45am

Festus wrote: »

Either you don't read very well or you do not have much of an understanding of human biology.

Well, I'm a Catholic who believes the most extreme suffering on earth is nothing compared to the least suffering in Purgatory or the punishment of Hell so I'd probably do my best to hang on as long as I could.

Before you consider a response to that bear in mind which forum you are in and what the Charter says.

Yes it is. At last we agree on something

So you've done some sinning worthy of purgatory have you? Hold on as long as you can? Sounds like a stubborn one here...i'm off to bed. Have had enough of this rubbish. This abortion (my exit) you will be happy about I think. Have a good night all.

hattoncracker · 25-02-2012 2:46am

JimiTime wrote: »

hattoncracker wrote: »

What you see as a 'light decision' I do not. That's your opinion. My opinion is that it is totally morally irresponsible to bring a life into the world that you're not ready for and can't take care of..

With the utmost of respect, I find such reasoning absolutely warped. Not only that, but if someone is pregnant, the life is already in the world.

I can understand That, but the amount of unfit junkie parents I have seen in my time just validates that argument.

wonderfulname · 25-02-2012 2:47am

hattoncracker wrote: »

Foetuses aren't people. They're not biologically defined as such until they can survive outside the womb. You can't murder them.

Completely scientifically factual, and we could go a long way in discussing the cognitive ability or lack thereof of a foetus and how viewing them as a life, rather than a potential one, is pretty much akin to saying every time you menstruate you're killing a child, unfortunately, this is the Christian forum, the Christian view is that foetuses are people too, so really biology doesn't matter in the slightest in this discussion, unless of course we query whether a Christian viewpoint should necessarily be inflicted upon non-Christians when that viewpoint is simply a matter of belief...

Tea 1000 · 25-02-2012 2:48am

hattoncracker wrote: »

Biologically, they are not. You don't call an egg a chick.

Incorrect. You are obviously confused and need to check the definition of the term.

Guy:Incognito · 25-02-2012 2:50am

As a matter of interest and I'm not being facetious, do the you consider yourself 9 months older than the world conventionally sees you festus? Or do you celebrate your birthday as the day you are alive since like the rets of us?

Tea 1000 · 25-02-2012 2:53am

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

As a matter of interest and I'm not being facetious, do the you consider yourself 9 months older than the world conventionally sees you festus? Or do you celebrate your birthday as the day you are alive since like the rets of us?

The hint is in the term "birthday"...

And for the impending argument to follow, here is the definition that I go by for the term "foetus":
A fetus (pronounced /ˈfiːtəs/; also spelled foetus, fœtus, faetus, or fætus, see below) is a developing mammal or other viviparous vertebrate after the embryonic stage and before birth.

Guy:Incognito · 25-02-2012 2:54am

Tea 1000 wrote: »

The hint is in the term "birthday"...

And for the impending argument to follow, here is the definition that I go by for the term "foetus":
A fetus (pronounced /ˈfiːtəs/; also spelled foetus, fœtus, faetus, or fætus, see below) is a developing mammal or other viviparous vertebrate after the embryonic stage and before birth.

There doesnt have to be an arguement. When do you consider yourself to have been alive since and hence, how old are you?

Festus · 25-02-2012 2:55am

goz83 wrote: »

And the murder would be "your" fact of course. The fact is that "murder" is normally a crime people go to jail for. So, if this was fact and abortion was seen as murder by law makers...oh well lets just say in England...then wouldn't the aborting mothers be sent to jail for murder? And the wealthy doctors for being an accessory to murder? Opinions are not facts, but yes, abortion is disgusting and wrong. It would, in my opinion, be a bigger wrong to allow a pregnant woman to die from a pregnancy and perhaps leave other young children behind, for the sake/hope of saving her unborn child. I am of the opinion that sometimes the child is better not to be born into certain circumstances where legislation and lack of morality is guaranteed to provide for miserable lives of those who are fostered into criminality and "murder".

No, not my fact. It is the law. That this law is not currently enforced in this jurisdiction is a different matter. As far as England is concerned that law was repealed and replaced with a law that legalised abortion.

Your opinion however, is as flawed as your knowledge of the law in this state. Medical care is such that pregnancy no longer is a significant factor in female mortality rates. The doctors here do everything in their power to treat mothers and save their lives. If there is ever a threat to her life treatment is provided even if that treatment will cause the baby to die.

What they do not do here is abort the baby before begining life saving treatment because medically that is just stupid.

On a final note I'm not sure that you comments are really fair to those people who foster children in need.

Tea 1000 · 25-02-2012 2:57am

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

There doesnt have to be an arguement. When do you consider yourself to have been alive since and hence, how old are you?

The argument I was referring to is the one I was expecting (rightly or wrongly) from hattoncracker saying that it's my opinion that a foetus is living, where as I'm actually stating the definition of the term foetus.

The other question refers to how old I am isn't a topic for argument at all. I go by tradition on that, which is to say I celebrate my birthday, not my conception day!!! But there's no doubt that I was alive before I was born!

Festus · 25-02-2012 2:59am

goz83 wrote: »

So you've done some sinning worthy of purgatory have you?

Who hasn't?

JimiTime · 25-02-2012 3:06am

hattoncracker wrote: »

I can understand That, but the amount of unfit junkie parents I have seen in my time just validates that argument.

I've seen plenty of that in my time too, drugs being a major issue where I grew up. Its horrible seeing it. Killing the unborn based on their parents though hardly seems fair on the unborn does it?

Plowman · 25-02-2012 3:07am

This post has been deleted.

Festus · 25-02-2012 3:07am

hattoncracker wrote: »

Biologically, they are not. You don't call an egg a chick.

Biologically...

An egg is an egg. a chick is a chick. A fertilised egg - chickens egg - is probably best described as an egg with an embryo inside it, or a fertilized egg.

A human egg is an egg too. However, when the egg is fertilized a new human being exists. Biological, medical, scientific fact.

hattoncracker · 25-02-2012 3:10am

Tea 1000 wrote: »

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

There doesnt have to be an arguement. When do you consider yourself to have been alive since and hence, how old are you?

The argument I was referring to is the one I was expecting (rightly or wrongly) from hattoncracker saying that it's my opinion that a foetus is living, where as I'm actually stating the definition of the term foetus.

The other question refers to how old I am isn't a topic for argument at all. I go by tradition on that, which is to say I celebrate my birthday, not my conception day!!! But there's no doubt that I was alive before I was born!

Im not getting into an argument with you. Im safe in the knowledge that one day it will be legalised fully, whether you like it or not because this society is moving away from the church.

Goodnight and farewell..

wonderfulname · 25-02-2012 3:23am

Plowman wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Fair play Plowman, that's exactly what I meant by a considerate argument against abortion in the case of rape, I don't agree with it, but I feel it should be noted.

For arguments sake the reason I don't agree with it is there are cases where all the emotional and material support in the world won't fully aid a rape victim, and where a continued pregnancy will only cause them more harm, it could even hinder her mental capability to carry out a planned pregnancy in future (and in my opinion if we're going to call a foetus a life we can easily call a definite plan one), a woman should be given the opportunity to have this recognised and discussed, before making a decision about continuing a pregnancy which has been violently imposed on her.

JimiTime · 25-02-2012 3:24am

Tea 1000 wrote: »

The argument I was referring to is the one I was expecting (rightly or wrongly) from hattoncracker saying that it's my opinion that a foetus is living, where as I'm actually stating the definition of the term foetus.

The other question refers to how old I am isn't a topic for argument at all. I go by tradition on that, which is to say I celebrate my birthday, not my conception day!!! But there's no doubt that I was alive before I was born!

Funnily enough, as the father of two children under 2, I often think of them in this debate. At the end of the day, my children were the same people at conception as they are now. That was the day those lives were created, and every stage since has just been a stage of their growth. My daughter can't walk yet, and there was a time she couldn't think yet etc, but it was wasn't like she was a different person or thing. From the moment my son and daughter were conceived, life was created. Unique lives that started to grow. I can't say that when they were 4 weeks conceived, that they were someone or something different. It was the same son, and same daughter that I see before me every day, just at a very early part of their growth.

Benny_Cake · 25-02-2012 7:32am

hattoncracker wrote: »

Im not getting into an argument with you. Im safe in the knowledge that one day it will be legalised fully, whether you like it or not because this society is moving away from the church.

Goodnight and farewell..

You've said one thing I agree with there - one day it will be legalised fully. For me, that seems sadly inevitable.

Let me say though that if you support abortion then you should do it for reasons other than to have a pop at the Catholic church. For me, the Church's opposition to abortion isn't the reason why I'm against it. I disagree with the church on contraception and homosexuality - but abortion... I just cannot agree with that, my heart, my conscience tells me that it is wrong. My heart goes out to any woman who may be considering it as an option.

Keep abortion out of Ireland

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