RootsIreland / IFHF

shanew · 22-03-2012 3:26pm #1

RootsIreland have changed their fee structure - not sure if it's better or worse!

Free Index searches are no longer available and now cost 1 credit per page, all records cost 25 credits. The cost of each credit depends on how you many you purchase at a time - cheaper the more you buy.

approximate cost per search page / and per record

€5.00=35 Credits 14c / €3.57
€10.00=73 Credits 13.5c / €3.42
€18.00=150 Credits 12c / €3
€32.00=320 Credits 10c / €2.50
€60.00=750 Credits 8c / €2

Shane

pinkypinky · 22-03-2012 4:10pm

That seems confusing.

Coolnabacky1873 · 22-03-2012 4:11pm

Shane,

Thanks for the info. They had it tucked away in their latest news instead of front and centre.
Very surprised they didn't email existing users (I didn't get one anyway) to outline the changes that were going to happen as not everyone would have been aware of this from Claire's blog a while back.

But anyway, some good, some bad.

I can see how the lower cost bulk bulking will be helpful to those with 'Patrick Murphy' ancestors. But taking away the free index searches is a bad move IMO.

I'm sure John Grenham will have lots to say about them now!

shanew · 22-03-2012 4:41pm

I have have purchased quite a few records from them over the years, but usually after a number of index searches to narrow down the parish etc. Admittedly once I've found a match I use the details to kick start a search in the NLI or RCBL

I understand John's online course has a section about using the free search to narrow down possible matches...

I prefer the old way - although the €5 was a bit steep.

In a way this might save some money for the people who really need more details to focus a search before they start an Irish search - i.e. those with limited information e.g Patrick Murphy Ireland abt 1820, unknown parents and location might hold off - and try to find a bit more details first ?...

S.

Coolnabacky1873 · 27-03-2012 5:17pm

Claire has an article on her blog today containing feedback from different Irish genealogy forums and websites.

Lots of people with some very negative thing to say about the new payment structure!

Wyldwood · 27-03-2012 6:52pm

Not living anywhere near Dublin/NLI, I have spent several hundred euro buying records from IFHF over the years but only after I had spent many hours searching to identify the correct ones. I won't part with another cent if I can't eliminate the wrong records before purchase. How many of us are lucky enough to have uncommon names to work with? I for one am stuck with very common names on the whole. Big fail to IFHF for this move.

Waitsian · 27-03-2012 7:58pm

If they start losing money they'll hopefully cop themselves on and either go full payment membership or revert back to the free search. It seems they've stirred up a hornet's nest anyway.

pedroeibar1 · 27-03-2012 11:15pm

They’ve made a classic internet-business mistake. Soooo many firms that went online in the mid 1990’s with a similar business model were cleared out by the dotcom bust. Have they not learned from that? Do they realize that a cyber customer is just a click from leaving a business? Their site already is too busy with repetitive tat, the navigation is awful to the uninitiated and now their pricing disparity – and five ‘price points - for the same product - will annoy their smaller customers (probably the biggest market.)

The obtuseness is amazing:-
To view the details of any single record from the search results page will cost 25 credits but may vary depending on the type of record you view.

Then they give a price matrix and follow that with
we suggest that you buy enough credit to view 10 records.

So that’s 250 credits (maybe, but may vary) BUT their pricing plan has either an option of 150 credits at €18 or 350 at €32. Where is the logic?

Waitsian · 31-03-2012 11:50pm

The Irish Genealogical Research Society has issued a response to the new fee structure, removing the free index search facility at RootsIreland's website:

A backward step

Recently, much has changed for the better in Irish genealogy, what with records coming online for free, or being made more generally accessible. But the recent action of the Irish Family History Foundation (through its website www.rootsireland.ie) to introduce charges to view its online indexes to records has come as a complete shock. It appears that mixed messages are now emanating from Ireland! One of the most used and beneficial websites, sponsored by the Irish government’s department for Arts, Heritage and Gaeltacht Affairs - www.irishgenealogy.ie - offers free access to parish register indexes and records from Dublin, Cork, Kerry and Carlow. The site is a joy to use and for most entries links are provided to digital images of the original record, enabling verification of data. However, by contrast, the IFHS does not provide links to the original records and charges have now been put in place to view the indexes, and that’s before paying to view the record itself. Contrasted with the government website, this appears a poor bargain by comparison. It is a worthwhile exercise to read the extremely restrictive Terms and Conditions produced by IFHS on their website. The tone is hectoring and threatening – and it begs the question of who on earth advised them on their public relations policy? Quite alarmingly, the terms determine “your rights, responsibilities and benefits” but I think most researchers will be alarmed to read “you may only use www.rootsireland.ie and its contents for your own personal non-commercial use... you cannot provide third parties with details of any records that you have paid to view, even if you provide them for free (so don’t pass on any family history records to your family)... if you do not agree with any of the Terms and Conditions do not use the site”...threats of disconnection and possible prosecution follow. Given the number of complaints already received by the IGRS, without delay the IFHS needs to seriously re-think this model of negativity and re-instate the free viewing of the indexes!

CeannRua · 01-04-2012 9:07am

Thanks mod9maple. With the limitation to 'personal, non-commercial use' this sounds like that both (1) people on forums such as this can't do lookups for people and that (2) external professional genealogists can't access the database. I can understand that professional genealogists cost them money in commissioned research but with people doing lookups, someone is still going to buy the records anyway.

As error prone as IrishGenealogy can be, at least you can (mostly) check the images. I wonder with RootsIreland how often it has set people on the wrong track because of transcription errors. As it stands, where an event happened after the start of civil registration, I would personally think the civil cert offers better value and accuracy and that the lack of images costs RootsIreland. RootsIreland just looks like a business model under threat. If IrishGenealogy get their hands on more records I could see RootsIreland being dead in the water.

shanew · 01-04-2012 9:42am

CeannRua wrote: »

....
If IrishGenealogy get their hands on more records I could see RootsIreland being dead in the water.

I think that's the core of the issue... up to now IrishGenealogy has only been covering areas outside those covered by RootsIreland and IFHF resisted plans for further digitization of the NLI films. Digitizing these could have been a step towards making these available online as images at least. Possibly not transcribed initially if costs did not allow, but I think plenty of people, in Ireland & worldwide, would volunteer to transcribe images.

bottom line in my view - this should not be a business, it's a resource to share

Shane

P. Breathnach · 01-04-2012 11:08am

There is an important point made in the statement of the Irish Genealogical Research Society quoted by mod9maple above about the terms and conditions imposed on users about sharing information. There is an implication that IFHF owns the data, and has a right to limit its use. No, it bloody doesn't own the content of parish registers and the like. They own a database that more-or-less correctly contains the same data; they own a search facility linked to that database; they have copyright on the format in which they present data.

Just a couple of days ago I received a mail from an American friend who wants help in understanding her Irish ancestry, and she was quite bothered about sending me the data about a marriage in 1831. Yet in this matter I can be regarded as a research assistant or collaborator. Why should she be made feel that she is bending or breaking the rules?

I don't mind paying for information if it costs somebody money to source that information for me. But I am getting a bit uncomfortable with IFHF. It describes itself as a "not-for-profit organization" yet seems to be intent on increasing its revenues. What for?

shanew · 01-04-2012 11:32am

Since the index searches were previously free to access, I didn't see a problem helping people narrow down parishes - although you had to be careful not do use too many or you could fall foul of another rule re your search vs payment ratio...

Since the searches are now paid for - I think there will be fewer people willing to assist, a) because they have to pay a fee (no matter how small), and b) because technically they are breaking the terms and conditions in doing so.

I think the big losers in this will be people outside Ireland who cannot easily access primary sources, e.g. NLI RCBL etc, and are not familiar with townlands, RC parishes, civil parishes, Poor Law Unions etc and need help getting their search started...

It is sometimes possible to extract results using the free search, based purely on the number of results.. but this only works with less common names, or uncommon combinations of names.

Shane

Brennans Row · 02-04-2012 5:10pm

mod9maple wrote: »

A backward step

. . . . . . . . . The (Irish Genealogy) site is a joy to use and for most entries links are provided to digital images of the original record, enabling verification of data. However, by contrast, the IFHS does not provide links to the original records . . . . . . .

That’s a good point.

The marriage certificate of my great-great-grandparents from the 1850s on the Roots Ireland website is very sparse on details e.g. the boxes for the names of parents were empty.

Therefore without a view of the original record, I could not verify for myself if their data was complete or not.

shanew · 02-04-2012 6:11pm

An 1850s RC marriage record would not usually include details of fathers. From what I've seen the most common format would be date, names of bride and groom, names of witness and possibly an address.

Shane

Brennans Row · 02-04-2012 8:58pm

Thanks Shane.

In fact I later got that marriage certificate checked with the original register on microfilm. Although there was no additional information to be obtained, in effect I paid twice to eliminate any ambiguity stemming from those empty boxes regarding parent names.

Since the records are now all transcribed into a data base, an image copy of the original record should be added to it too and included in the pay per view for authenticity.

shanew · 02-04-2012 9:15pm

agreed - images are important and the IFHF should have made images available also, but as far as I know, in most cases they just transcribed the details, rather than scanning or digitizing them.

Shane

Coolnabacky1873 · 05-04-2012 10:14pm

Well I finally got an email today from the IFHF telling me all about their new credits system.

If further added that if I signed up by 22 March then I get the free searches.

That's great to know........in April!

Coolnabacky1873 · 08-04-2012 3:10pm

John Grenham has given us his reaction to the new RootsIreland payment model.

You won't be surprised by what he says but he makes the interesting comment:
The sane response is of course to look for a way to outwit the restrictions. And sure enough, with a little care it is still possible to do free index searches. I would encourage experimentation.

Is he referring to a way to do permanent free searches?

I haven't had the chance since the changes to experiment but has anyone else found a way?

shanew · 08-04-2012 3:47pm

You can sometimes workout useful results using just the fully free search and a single membership - it's like 20 questions in that all you have to go on is the number of results. You start with the parent/couple names, approx. year, and county and then keep narrowing down the parish, first names, date etc - doing the search again and re-checking the number of results. Hopefully ending up with just one or two matches in a single parish with more detailed names. This probably will not work for more common names or for CofI baptisms.

For first names, you can search one letter at a time a bit like the Glasnevin search - e.g. fr father's name try P=no result, try M=1 result, try Mi=no results, try Ma 1 result. Guess at Matthew - 1 result etc etc

Shane

touts · 23-05-2012 7:01am

Just logged on to RootsIreland for the first time in a few months to try and follow up on a few leads for one branch of my family tree. You now have to pay to SEARCH the records. I have spend hundreds in accessing records once I had narrowed down the options with the free search. To now charge me for searching aswell is a major turnoff. Personally I'm using the "credits" I have left on the account and then I will probably never be back. Can you imagine if Google charged you for each page of potentially irrelevant search results. If I have to pay to search and can't be sure that I will find anyone on my tree my gut instinct is to wait and hope I will find more info somewhere else before spending money. I can't be alone in this feeling. I would suspect their revenue will fall off a cliff after this. They should have put ads on the page rather than this charge for the search results rubbish!

binxeo · 23-05-2012 7:42pm

touts wrote: »

Just logged on to RootsIreland for the first time in a few months to try and follow up on a few leads for one branch of my family tree. You now have to pay to SEARCH the records. I have spend hundreds in accessing records once I had narrowed down the options with the free search. To now charge me for searching aswell is a major turnoff. Personally I'm using the "credits" I have left on the account and then I will probably never be back. Can you imagine if Google charged you for each page of potentially irrelevant search results. If I have to pay to search and can't be sure that I will find anyone on my tree my gut instinct is to wait and hope I will find more info somewhere else before spending money. I can't be alone in this feeling. I would suspect their revenue will fall off a cliff after this. They should have put ads on the page rather than this charge for the search results rubbish!

I noticed this the other day myself. I was very disheartened tbh. Plus I was sure I had ten credits left on my account but when I check I had none. It is def a service I won't be using until it is changed. Typically Irish you have to pay to search. Ridiculous.

genie · 23-05-2012 8:15pm

I haven't used the site since the new fee structure was introduced.

I wonder if the number of people using the site (and revenue for RootsIreland) has fallen?

Hermy · 23-05-2012 8:59pm

I emailed them regarding this and haven't heard back. Anyone else?

ZombieBride · 23-05-2012 10:20pm

I still use it, and generally only have to use one credit to view the first page, then another 25 to view the second.

Yes, it is expensive, but going through the BMD indexes finding right ancestor, after visiting your local family history centre, posting your information and cheque for €6.00 for a photocopy of the register, or €10 for an actual cert to the GRO, waiting for them to post it back to you. Or if you don't have a family history centre near by, making a random guess posting the cheque only to find that there were a few people of that name in that town at that time.

Yes it costs, but it is a lot cheaper and quicker than the alternatives. Why should we get it for free? As a researcher I know how much work goes into correlating a database like that, it doesn't come cheap or quick.

P. Breathnach · 23-05-2012 10:34pm

ZombieBride wrote: »

... Why should we get it for free? As a researcher I know how much work goes into correlating a database like that, it doesn't come cheap or quick.

Caitriona Crowe gave reasons on radio recently. The most telling argument is that we actually paid for the abstraction of the data, because nearly all the work was done by FÁS workers.

ZombieBride · 23-05-2012 10:40pm

P. Breathnach wrote: »

Caitriona Crowe gave reasons on radio recently. The most telling argument is that we actually paid for the abstraction of the data, because nearly all the work was done by FÁS workers.

That doesn't negate the fact that if you walked into a registry office to get a cert you'd be paying either €6 or €10, so why have those fees if we can get the information for free online?
The FAS workers didn't do it for free though, they were paid.
A lot of people who would be using that database aren't living in Ireland, so their taxes wouldn't have paid the FAS workers, so should only they have to pay or should they get it for free too?

While I'd love to see them made available for free but I don't think we are automatically "entitled" to it.

genie · 23-05-2012 11:08pm

I don't object to paying for the records. What I do object to is paying for the search for those records.

Coolnabacky1873 · 23-05-2012 11:28pm

The only defens(c)e of the new payment structure that I have seen from an IFHF member is from Brian Mitchell of the Derry Genealogy Centre in a comment on John Grenham's blog post.

genie · 24-05-2012 11:43am

Coolnabacky1873 wrote: »

The only defens(c)e of the new payment structure that I have seen from an IFHF member is from Brian Mitchell of the Derry Genealogy Centre in a comment on John Grenham's blog post.

Well, he would defend the new pay structure, wouldn't he?

It is a great and very useful database and has helped me no end with my own family history research but now charging for searches as well as the record just reeks of greed and I will not use the site again until the current pay structure is done away with.

Coolnabacky1873 · 24-05-2012 12:15pm

Yeah, I don't think some of the arguments he makes are the best tbh.

In a two horse race it's not that hard being the "Number One family records database in Ireland." The "powerful index" search facility would be the same found on any other website.

I do wonder if the IFHF felt that too many people were just using the indexes and then going elsewhere to get their records (local family history centre, GRO etc..).

genie · 24-05-2012 2:34pm

I was using the website specifically for pre 1864 records and I was lucky enough to get some of my families back to the mid to late 18C.

I can only hope now that irishgenealogy.ie continues to add records, as not only is it free, in many cases you can view and download a scan of the original church record, something you never received from RootsIreland for your €5.

pinkypinky · 24-05-2012 3:06pm

In the latest issue of Irish Roots, there are 2 discussions of the IFHF changes, both negative but polite. I'd say the IFHF have seen a massive decrease in usage and it will be forced to back down.

I've never made much use of them at all. The one record I found of use has, I believe, a significant typo, and neither the RCBL, the actual church, nor the IFHF is able to tell me where the original record is, so I can't view it myself. I really object to pay per view but would be very happy to pay for short term subscription - even ancestry does a (could be cheaper) reasonable monthly rate now for unlimited access.

ACProctor · 29-05-2012 9:04pm

While the IFHF's T&C are badly phrased, and do seem threatening, they're not unusual in the industry. As someone else pointed out already, they're merely trying to prevent a few people doing lookups for a larger number of non-paying folk.

As regards data sharing, there is no copyright on your own transcriptions of public records. Obviously, images may be copyrighted, and even the indexed database system created by a content provider. Your own GEDCOM files, etc., are completely independent of that.

Data sharing within an extended family is a fundmantal tenet of genealogy!

Anway, the IFHF's charges are far too high for me, or anyone in my family history workshop :-(

Tony

Geniecon · 02-06-2012 3:56pm

What really annoys me about rootsireland is that they state that results are finding aids only. This is a bit much if you're paying big money to take a chance on getting ALL the required information. Civil record transcriptions vary between one county and the next i.e. some civil records from rootsireland do not show all the details that you would get on a photocopy cert in the GRO research room (for €4) . In fairness, some do have complete info, but it's not always worth taking the chance.

Older church records can be scant at the best of times, but it's always worth checking the microfilms in the NLI, once you know the relevant parish/date etc.

Also, I paid a fair bit over a year ago to get Meath baptism records, only to find that some info was not transcribed, I was looking for sponsors and places of birth, but this info was not included, even though I knew this info was available in earlier records for the relevant parish. I contacted them about it and received a reply from the Meath Heritage centre, who were to check into it and get back to me. No info yet and I'm not holding my breath.....

Re the "not-for-profit" thing, I would question the validity of this statement, as I have met individuals working for this organisation who are clearly making a living from this.

shanew · 03-07-2012 10:05pm

another mention of the IFHF on JG's blog from yesterday -

Why can’t we all just get along?

just spotted this on Claire's blog :

RootsIreland offers 'free' searches for July

S.

pedroeibar1 · 04-07-2012 11:16am

Those blog pieces detail basic common sense which appears to be lacking at Rootsireland.

From their latest antics it can be inferred that their lack of business accumen matches the lack of clarity on their website and these are beginning to have an effect. Clearly usage has died away, their cash-flow is drying up and they need a carrot to prompt people to buy credits.

Sorry guys, I know the carrot is held on the end of a long stick, I’m not an ass, and neither are most of the people who could use your service when you get your act together.

ejmaztec · 04-07-2012 1:39pm

They're probably trying to build it up so's they can flog it off to the other larger "mercenary", Ancestry, and walk away with a big wad.

pedroeibar1 · 04-07-2012 11:29pm

ejmaztec wrote: »

They're probably trying to build it up so's they can flog it off to the other larger "mercenary", Ancestry, and walk away with a big wad.

When is it going to stop raining? I need to get OUT!

To be fair to them I’m not sure that is the case. If it is, (and I doubt it) they have even less of a clue than I gave them credit for. To me it seems like a fair example of what I call the ‘big disconnect’ between the reality of business and timeservers who have no conception of what the real world is like. Sadly it is our taxes that pay for this tat and pay the salaries of many of the idiots involved.

I am a total amateur when it comes to genealogy, but I am not easily fooled when it comes to management and a business plan. Let’s look at the commerciality / user-friendliness of their website. I’ll ignore the fact that they have an identity problem rootsireland or Irish Family History Foundation. Ignore the choice (a ‘confusion’?) of 14 tabs on their home page. I will ignore the similar shades of red & orange on the ‘what’s available’ map (why not a contrast?) Let’s just look at the ‘About Us’ tab. This is the page customers first go to before doing business online – everyone wants to know who/what is on the other end of the Internet connection. You expect concise, succinct information. The Rootsireland ‘About Us’ page runs to about 2,100 words or, in paper terms, about five A4 pages..........now, what potential customer/buyer of any product is going to wade through five A4 pages of hard-to-follow stolid prose? (Frankly, who gives a rats about some schoolteacher in Co. Clare in 1979?) Do they realise how arrogant it is to expect a potential buyer to read that stuff?

The development of their business is curious - text in bold print is from their site :
1984 groups.... came together to form the Irish Family History Society, out of which
The Irish Family History Co-operative emerged.
Now a Co-op is a legal entity and is regulated by the Registrar of Friendly Societies; it does not ‘emerge’, it is created by someone for a purpose and has members
....which later, in consultation with the Companies Office, changed its name to the Irish Family History Foundation (IFHF).
Nonsense. The Companies Office does not ‘consult’ – it does what it is there to do – to record information. You tell it what you want and if it is legal and in their remit they do it. Read http://www.cro.ie/ena/about-cro-functions.aspx

Next we have waffle about Diaspora, cross-border and Taoiseach’s Task force dating to the 1980’s – (Em, that is about 30 years ago, does it add anything?)

Then we jump to theThe Irish Genealogy Project (IGP) which got into bed with the Irish Family History Foundation, which with commercial genealogists formed Irish Genealogy Limited (IGL) IGL was registered as a company in 1993 and ceased to function in 2009.
Companies have shareholders and directors; they should make a profit and pay a dividend What happened? If you do not want people to know, why bother mentioning it?

We then leap to
The Irish Family History Foundation is a company limited by guarantee with no share capital and no distribution of profits. As such it is a voluntary organization made up of local genealogy centres, the majority of which are legally established on the same basis.
So this means it has directors and officers. Not one name is mentioned, nor how they are appointed, or on what basis. Hardly clarity.

The majority of IFHF centres sponsored community training and employment schemes operated by FÁS in the Republic of Ireland. Some centres continue to do this work.
No detail given on this, but anyone ‘in the know’ understands that ‘FÁS’ obtains millions of taxpayers’ funds to operate. On what basis can IFHF justify charging fees for a service that has already been funded by the taxpayer?

Investment by the IFI allowed the IGP to launch the data capture, or production phase of the project, with a common computer system, complete with custom designed software.
All very commendable but who/what are the ‘IFI’ – no other mention of them on the site... on what basis was the investment made? There is no mention of any consideration, or payback/reward.

IFHF then go on to waffle about archives, records, ‘Diaspora’ and describe themselves as ‘guardians’. If there is one word from Mary Robinson’s term in office I despise more than ‘absolutely’ it is Dias bloody pora.

The web design company responsible for the site is primarily one for the golf industry. That figures. If an intern built the IFHFsite for me as a summer project they would be sent packing. The big disconnect; a project managed by idiots in Kildare St and its environs who never had to face commercial reality and would not recognize it if it hit them in the face..

Jellybaby1 · 05-07-2012 12:39am

I've been reading that 'about us'. It reminds me of someone I knew many years ago, all bluster and no brains! There I said it, I'm not proud of myself for saying it but yes, there is a lot of drivel and waffle on that site.

RGM · 05-07-2012 9:33am

I understand the frustration, but I don't know how much I can complain given the information I've found there and nowhere else.

pinkypinky · 05-07-2012 10:42am

pedroeibar1 wrote: »

When is it going to stop raining? I need to get OUT!

To be fair to them I’m not sure that is the case. If it is, (and I doubt it) they have even less of a clue than I gave them credit for. To me it seems like a fair example of what I call the ‘big disconnect’ between the reality of business and timeservers who have no conception of what the real world is like. Sadly it is our taxes that pay for this tat and pay the salaries of many of the idiots involved.

I am a total amateur when it comes to genealogy, but I am not easily fooled when it comes to management and a business plan. Let’s look at the commerciality / user-friendliness of their website. ......

Pedro, that is a quality rant! I salute you.

And everything you say is true. I tweeted at them that their new July offer was just too confusing to consider. Unsurprisingly, no response was forthcoming.

ACProctor · 05-07-2012 1:20pm

ejmaztec wrote: »

They're probably trying to build it up so's they can flog it off to the other larger "mercenary", Ancestry, and walk away with a big wad.

Ancestry are already up for sale themselves at the moment. A more likely buyer might be brightsolid, who operate findmypast.ie (and similar domains). However, IFHF are technically "non-profit" (although you'd have to question that given their charging structure) so I'm not sure how a commerical buy-out would work.

I would be cautious of IFHF if I was looking for a good buy. The fact that they never kept images of what was being transcribed, and the level of detail in their transcriptions is "variable", suggests that someone didn't really understand genealogy very well.

Tony

pedroeibar1 · 05-07-2012 9:29pm

pinkypinky wrote: »

Pedro, that is a quality rant! I salute you.

And everything you say is true. I tweeted at them that their new July offer was just too confusing to consider. Unsurprisingly, no response was forthcoming.

Thanks Pinky. Possibly 150% of ‘normal’ rainfall in June coupled with the full moon on Tuesday night made me more prone to a rant.:o

I have no special agenda against IFHF; it’s just that they are so inept. I get frustrated at bad customer service when it is due to ignorance and worse, downright stupidity. I get even madder when the provider is obtaining State funding / subsidies or has a monopoly and their stupidity prevents me from using a service that would be useful to me. Back in the 1990’s I built an Internet business and know that Internet marketing 101 shows that online customers want three things: (i) Trust (ii) Simplicity (iii) No Surprises. IFHF has completely failed to provide all three!

It gets worse. Several studies over the years have repeatedly found that a dissatisfied customer tells between nine and fifteen people and of those about 13% tell more than 20. So, in the last three months, more than 20,000 people now know that IFHF has awful customer service. (2,300 hits on this thread, say 1500 to allow for multiple hits by the same users, 1,500 x 15 = 22,500.) That is a sizeable number in a niche market. And the feedback or comment from IFHF management? Precisely zero.
Last year the Global Development Learning Network (an org. under the World Bank umbrella) said that 86% of consumers stop doing business with an organisation because of a bad customer experience, up from 59% four years ago. A study prepared by Harvard Business School a couple of years ago has shown that 80% of ‘defectors’ (i.e. people who stop using a service) said that they were ‘satisfied’ in their last customer survey. Loads of info here http://customerservicemanager.com/customer-service-facts.htm

IFHF must be aware of the negativity on this thread i.e. what is happening in their market; if they are not aware they are guilty of gross mismanagement. If they are aware, their current silence / lack of engagement speak volumes on their ‘customer care’ focus and willingness to engage with their customers/potential customers.

The IFI in my post above appears to be the International Fund for Ireland; they must now have to seriously question what is happening to the funding they gave IFHF, given the absence of such a basic item as scanned records and an absence of management direction / leadership in IFHF.

Just wait for the IFHF ‘app’.................:D:D

shanew · 05-07-2012 10:00pm

We the customers are in the unfortunate position of not having much alternative - unless you are lucky enough to be searching a parish included on IrishGenealogy then it's usually a case of either searching on IFHF or visiting the appropriate Library - that of course is if you know the parish or at at least the general area, and you were able to get to the source.

If there was an alternative for the more difficult searches (i.e, have names, but not the exact parish...) they would lose customers in droves, but as it stands we have no choice, so they dont have to live in the real commercial world. Common sense, and JG, would suggest that IFHF and IrishGenealogy combine forces, but I dont see that happening any time soon - hope I'm wrong.. The scanning of the RC films looked like an apparent way out of this, but somehow they were able to prevent this - dont get why they have this power ?

For the moment I have to say I tolerate the system but extract every last details I can out of the free search, even with the restrictions - i.e. the one with just number of results. This is tedious but can yield results if you have some names and a county at least.

Shane

pedroeibar1 · 05-07-2012 11:32pm

Point taken, Shane, but you are an ‘expert’ as clearly indicated by your regular posts both here and elsewhere; you know how to navigate around the better areas of that awful site and ‘pick & choose’ from it and others. The purpose of the IFI funding and State support for IFHF was to generate tourist revenue; now imagine Joe Schmo in NJ or MA, looking for info with a view to coming to Ireland to see the auld sod and the ‘Gathering’ ........he would run a mile after encountering the IFHF roots site.

Yes, IFHF are almost the only show in town, but once Aer Lingus was in a similar position. Look at what happened when Ryanair took to the skies. AL floatation price of €2.20, now priced artificially high at about €1, (mainly because of Ryanair bid interest) having been down to 0.63 this year and even lower a couple of years ago (their true value IMO). Why? Bad management, good staff without power and bad staff with attitude. Detect any similarities with IFHF?

Coolnabacky1873 · 06-07-2012 12:46am

shanew wrote: »

If there was an alternative for the more difficult searches (i.e, have names, but not the exact parish...) they would lose customers in droves, but as it stands we have no choice, so they dont have to live in the real commercial world. Common sense, and JG, would suggest that IFHF and IrishGenealogy combine forces, but I dont see that happening any time soon - hope I'm wrong.. The scanning of the RC films looked like an apparent way out of this, but somehow they were able to prevent this - dont get why they have this power ?

From the point of view of the IFHF I think this is the central issue. From what I have read on John Grenham's blog over the years and picket up from the professional genealogy community there seems to be two competing ideologies when it comes to records:

Get everything online for free (e.g. 1901/1911 census) vs. charge people for access using a poor imitation of the ScotlandsPeople model.

IFHF seem to think that it would be detrimental to their revenues if the NAI were able to scan the parish registers and get them online. I work as a pro genealogist and would LOVE to see ALL Irish records online for free. I (and therefore the IFHF) would still be able to get an income as it takes a long time to understand how and why various record sets were created and how many there are out there. Plenty of people are not willing to or don't have the time to invest in that kind of knowledge accumulation so will pay for it. If each county heritage centre got it's act together and actively targeted those with Kerry, Galway, Donegal etc.. roots in the US and elsewhere they would have a very good income stream.

tenterfields · 06-07-2012 9:15am

shanew wrote: »

We the customers are in the unfortunate position of not having much alternative - unless you are lucky enough to be searching a parish included on IrishGenealogy then it's usually a case of either searching on IFHF or visiting the appropriate Library - that of course is if you know the parish or at at least the general area, and you were able to get to the source.

If there was an alternative for the more difficult searches (i.e, have names, but not the exact parish...) they would lose customers in droves, but as it stands we have no choice, so they dont have to live in the real commercial world. Common sense, and JG, would suggest that IFHF and IrishGenealogy combine forces, but I dont see that happening any time soon - hope I'm wrong.. The scanning of the RC films looked like an apparent way out of this, but somehow they were able to prevent this - dont get why they have this power ?

For the moment I have to say I tolerate the system but extract every last details I can out of the free search, even with the restrictions - i.e. the one with just number of results. This is tedious but can yield results if you have some names and a county at least.

Shane

Hi Shane

Any chance of a quick tutorial on wringing info from the free search for us neophytes?

RGM · 06-07-2012 9:39am

I will say their database search has a couple serious flaws:

- You have to manually search for different name variations. A search for "Ryan" won't return results for "Royan," for example. When you're dealing with transcriptions that are all over the place, this is important. They should at least make it clear for people. I mean, I have Ring ancestors and I've found records under Ryng, Reing, Reiny and Reen. Your average Joe won't find that stuff.

- Can't search by locations within counties. So irritating.

If I was running that site from a business point of view, I'd make searches free and make it easy as hell to find what you're looking for, then put a price on the records. Otherwise, people will click around for two minutes, get frustrated and leave.

Also, I've come across duplicate records. That's ridiculous when you're paying for each one.

shanew · 06-07-2012 10:18am

easier to use an example or two if you have some... like manual searches you need a certain level of clues, otherwise there's no way to confirm if you have a possible match. As well as the name, dob and county, you ideally need one or more of these :

parish or town

parents names..ideally both but one can be enough sometimes

siblings names and dates

The names make a big difference - common names you need more details, rare names you can sometimes get away with just a name, year and county. Some name variations and Latin versions are allowed for in the searches but you can also just enter the first few letters - e.g. Ja for James/Jacobus etc.

Baptism searches are much easier for RC families since they include mother's maiden name, CofI baptism generally dont. However the search facility on RootsIreland doesn't always work correctly for maiden name searches - think that might relate to certain counties or parishes...

For the actual baptism searches go to the relevant county section, and enter the basic details - and see how many matches there are. Fine tune the search by entering the first names of the father and/or mother if you have them and again check the number of matches. If you get a small number of results, then you can try each of the parishes in turn and note the number of matches in each. Once you have narrowed down a parish you can then search within that for siblings by leaving the parents names and trying first letter of all names in turn - starting with the more common ones P, M, C, K, W, J etc (they dont allow a general search by parish without a name).

Basically the aim of this is to get to a search that gives you a small number of results, and ideally the message '1 match for the search criteria...' Once you have done this you can follow up by purchasing the record transcript(s), or better still viewing the film in the NLI. Obviously if you get a 'No records were returned', or a very a large number you are in trouble...and probably have to go back to your clues and see if you can add to these.

If you dont know the county then the process is more complex, but if you believe the person came from one of the areas covered by RootsIreland then you can try the "full" search with parents names and see if there are results - if so then de-select the various counties in turn until you narrow down where they are - then select the relevant county centre(s), and start the parish search.

S.

Re: Duplicates - some of these relate to baptism and civil births for the same person.

Re : Searching within county - you can search by parish, but an initial is required

P. Breathnach · 06-07-2012 10:49am

shanew wrote: »

...
Re: Duplicates - some of these relate to baptism and civil births for the same person...

Where a Catholic parish has more than one church, the records in the "chapel of ease" should be regarded as a supplementary record, as they were supposed to be copied into the main parish register. It looks to me as if some of the chapel of ease records were also entered in the database.

RootsIreland / IFHF

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