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Mahon Tribunal report

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Comments

  • #102
    timesnap
    Closed Accounts Posts: 423 ✭✭timesnap


    transylman wrote: »
    Dev who took donations intended for the state and used them to set up a partisan newspaper? That Dev?
    :D

    Yes that Dev!
    matter of fact many of those 'bonds' he collected in America have never been accounted for......... may'be they will be found some day and help us out.
    doubt it though :)


  • #103
    charlemont
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,725 ✭✭✭charlemont


    Justice will only be served on these guys when their cronies in all the government bodies and justice system are weeded out.


  • #104
    timesnap
    Closed Accounts Posts: 423 ✭✭timesnap


    Kidding aside today was a day of shame,it must be almost as devastating to many who stood by Bertie as how Americans felt when Nixon finally stepped down, a much smaller scale i know but i am in the pitts at todays unfolding events.:(
    it was worse than even the biggist cynic expected i think.


  • #105
    ascanbe
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,089 ✭✭✭ascanbe


    So, now that our politicians are registering their 'shock' and 'indignation' after these 'revelations', surely this will result in them steadfastly ensuring that there is a proper investigation, not a tribunal, into what occurred in our banks and into the relationship between certain politicians/civil servants and these banks.
    You'd think that might be important, given that the fall-out from all that makes what was covered in this report look like small-fry/a foot-note in the history of corruption that ultimately led to, perhaps, even greater instances of such corruption and our current tragic situation.
    At the moment, you could be forgiven for thinking that they have absolutely no interest in doing so.


  • #106
    K-9
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 43,311 ✭✭✭✭K-9


    transylman wrote: »
    Dev who took donations intended for the state and used them to set up a partisan newspaper? That Dev?

    Lemass, Colley, Lynch, Aitken and Hillery would have been better examples but tbh mentioning figures from 30 or 40 years or more kind of sums up where the party is. The root of this problem goes back to the 60's, but to the election of Haughey in the the late 70's as leader in particular, after being expelled from FF, defeating George Colley in the process. The "boy who made good" became part of the ethos of FF, reflected in Haughey, Reynolds and Bertie and I'd say, that got reflected in the Irish economy, the property bubble a perfect example.

    Kenny and Denis O'Brien and it seems Rabbite's failure to see anything wrong with their recent associations doesn't give me any confidence that this lot are that spectacularly different.

    Mad Men's Don Draper : What you call love was invented by guys like me, to sell nylons.



  • #107
    Mr.Micro
    Registered Users Posts: 5,336 ✭✭✭Mr.Micro


    K-9 wrote: »

    Kenny and Denis O'Brien and it seems Rabbite's failure to see anything wrong with their recent associations doesn't give me any confidence that this lot are that spectacularly different.

    Probably not. There is a corrupt culture in Irish politics IMO, and because FF were in power for much of the past it is that party that is mostly associated with corruption. It has not gone away and we will find that corruption has not been idle for the last 15 years either.


  • #108
    Sir Oxman
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,492 ✭✭✭Sir Oxman


    K-9 wrote: »
    Lemass, Colley, Lynch, Aitken and Hillery would have been better examples but tbh mentioning figures from 30 or 40 years or more kind of sums up where the party is. The root of this problem goes back to the 60's, but to the election of Haughey in the the late 70's as leader in particular, after being expelled from FF, defeating George Colley in the process. The "boy who made good" became part of the ethos of FF, reflected in Haughey, Reynolds and Bertie and I'd say, that got reflected in the Irish economy, the property bubble a perfect example.

    Kenny and Denis O'Brien and it seems Rabbite's failure to see anything wrong with their recent associations doesn't give me any confidence that this lot are that spectacularly different.


    It's quite extraordinary.
    That particular part ended up with Rabbitte saying whatever about Kenny's defects, he's an honest man.

    Well, keep away from O Brien then - lead by example!


  • #109
    jank
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 13,018 ✭✭✭✭jank


    Sierra Oscar wrote: »
    Indeed, and that does not make it any more acceptable in the slightest.

    .

    Are you and the wider FF parliamentary party going to demand the resignation of those members of the cabinet who sought to underime the tribunal in an effort to collapse it?


  • #110
    Villain
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,951 ✭✭✭✭Villain


    Einhard wrote: »
    McDowell played a relatively minor part compared to the electorate when it came to keeping Bertie in power, and rewarding FF for their corruption.


    Hold on a minute, the ordinary voter was prevented from been told that Bertie was not telling the truth at the Tribunal, the media and even popular sites such as this one weren't willing to allow people to state what the evidence clearly showed.

    Now I'm sure you are aware of McDowell's legal credentials giving his legal knowledge I find it amazing that he couldn't read the transcripts and see that the evidence clearly showed that what Bertie said COULDN'T be true, take the Dollar transaction as the easiest one. It was clear he wasn't telling the truth however because of his position McDowell and others were afraid to say what the evidence clearly showed.


  • #111
    Padraig Mor
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,574 ✭✭✭Padraig Mor


    Villain wrote: »
    Hold on a minute, the ordinary voter was prevented from been told that Bertie was not telling the truth at the Tribunal, the media and even popular sites such as this one weren't willing to allow people to state what the evidence clearly showed.

    Come off it. Every Tom Dick and Harry knew he was lying and his evidence was treated with derision at the time. The sad fact is that the majority of Irish people are quite accepting of corruption and would happily do the same themselves - hence voting for Bertie, who many still likely quietly admire. The Irish people got the politicians they deserved.


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  • #112
    Villain
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,951 ✭✭✭✭Villain


    Padraig Mor wrote: »
    Come off it. Every Tom Dick and Harry knew he was lying and his evidence was treated with derision at the time. The sad fact is that the majority of Irish people are quite accepting of corruption and would happily do the same themselves - hence voting for Bertie, who many still likely quietly admire. The Irish people got the politicians they deserved.
    I disagree I think a lot of people fell for Bertie's tears in his interview with Dobbo and believed him.


  • #113
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Villain wrote: »
    I disagree I think a lot of people fell for Bertie's tears in his interview with Dobbo and believed him.

    Worse fools them. They are the same kind of idiots i saw on the 6 O'Clock news yesterday evening on Main Street, Castlebar defending Padraig Flynn because he "did a lot for the area" and "got the ring road built". Bertie is, and always was a liar, and although we finally have €300 million worth of proof from it, we didn't need the Mahon report to tell us that. Anyone who sat in the tribunal gallery and heard a single day of his shambolic testimony would have seen it as plainly as day, but even his explanations on his financial dealings to the media, who were far less exhaustive, were farcical.

    A serving minister of finance of an EU country who dealt in cash and didn't have a bank account? Whip arounds? Good days at the races??

    Come on. Please.


    I have always viewed these accepting, apathetic idiots as complicit in the mess we are in. Corruption only takes one corrupt individual to carry out, but a culture of corruption like the tribunal has finally and unequivocally exposed takes the complicity of many, including people like these in the general public. If corruption is to be wiped out in Ireland it has not only to be done in public office, but in the mindset of people like these who continue to support it, either out of apathy or out of their own shallow self interest for getting a ring road built, or a political favour done for a single vote, or whatever.

    This report is the last catalyst for change we will ever get in this country, because if the system we have at the moment survives it it will know it is untouchable. We MUST let our politicians of EVERY party know we want change.


  • #114
    Villain
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,951 ✭✭✭✭Villain


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Worse fools them. They are the same kind of idiots i saw on the 6 O'Clock news yesterday evening on Main Street, Castlebar defending Padraig Flynn because he "did a lot for the area" and "got the ring road built". Bertie is, and always was a liar, and although we finally have €300 million worth of proof from it, we didn't need the Mahon report to tell us that. Anyone who sat in the tribunal gallery and heard a single day of his shambolic testimony would have seen it as plainly as day, but even his explanations on his financial dealings to the media, who were far less exhaustive, were farcical.

    A serving minister of finance of an EU country who dealt in cash and didn't have a bank account? Whip arounds? Good days at the races??

    Come on. Please.


    I have always viewed these accepting, apathetic idiots as complicit in the mess we are in. Corruption only takes one corrupt individual to carry out, but a culture of corruption like the tribunal has finally and unequivocally exposed takes the complicity of many, including people like these in the general public. If corruption is to be wiped out in Ireland it has not only to be done in public office, but in the mindset of people like these who continue to support it, either out of apathy or out of their own shallow self interest for getting a ring road built, or a political favour done for a single vote, or whatever.

    This report is the last catalyst for change we will ever get in this country, because if the system we have at the moment survives it it will know it is untouchable. We MUST let our politicians of EVERY party know we want change.

    Oh I couldn't agree more but the fact is that interview worked on a lot of people, my main issue now is the fact that the media and other politicians at the time weren't willing to stand up and say that he wasn't telling the truth.

    The evidence was clear and showed over and over that Bertie wasn't telling the truth yet he was allowed to become the Leader of our Government again.


  • #115
    Cardinal Richelieu
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,407 ✭✭✭Cardinal Richelieu


    K-9 wrote: »
    Lemass, Colley, Lynch, Aitken and Hillery would have been better examples but tbh mentioning figures from 30 or 40 years or more kind of sums up where the party is. The root of this problem goes back to the 60's, but to the election of Haughey in the the late 70's as leader in particular, after being expelled from FF, defeating George Colley in the process. The "boy who made good" became part of the ethos of FF, reflected in Haughey, Reynolds and Bertie and I'd say, that got reflected in the Irish economy, the property bubble a perfect example.

    Kenny and Denis O'Brien and it seems Rabbite's failure to see anything wrong with their recent associations doesn't give me any confidence that this lot are that spectacularly different.

    Haughey most likely turned a secret party slush fund system that existed under Lemass and Dev into a personnel money making system. Part of the indignation from FF supporters is not that the tarnished FF politicians raised money for the party by selling votes and support but that they pocketed most of the money themselves.


  • #116
    JustinDee
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,684 ✭✭✭JustinDee


    Deleted User wrote: »
    A serving minister of finance of an EU country who dealt in cash and didn't have a bank account? Whip arounds? Good days at the races??

    Come on. Please

    "A good day at the races" was John Gilligan's defence too and thats not where the similarities end either.


  • #117
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    JustinDee wrote: »
    "A good day at the races" was John Gilligan's defence too and thats not where the similarities end either.

    I'm not sure who's the bigger crook......


  • #118
    jmayo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,186 ✭✭✭✭jmayo


    timesnap wrote: »
    The power of the darkside,are you trying to stir it or should that ridiculous statement not have been placed in another forum?
    the reason i did not want them to drop to 20 seats was for fear that we would end up with another one party state,just like it was under FF.

    Ahh why not try and increase the Labour vote, or another party, instead if you want a non one party state ?
    timesnap wrote: »
    It has EVERYTHING to do with who selects judges,those who sat on the board of fas,which party has enough councilors to rezone land for builders greed..... list is endless.

    And what about who voted in the people that place those people ?
    If you don't remove dodgy politicans then you will never solve the problems.
    timesnap wrote: »
    If you bothered your arse to read back you will notice i am talking about my family tree and its history of voting FF due to both FF&FG being born from civil war politics,it just so happens my ancestors came down on the Anti-treaty side.
    what age do you think i am?,i am getting a bit pissed at the way some people seem to have carte-blanch to be rude on the politics forum whilst others are having their posts deleted on their 5th post.

    And I am getting pi**ed at ex ffers now being indignant and claiming they were fooled.
    timesnap wrote: »
    How clever of you there but you do know that CJ never actually said that as it often quoted,it was an urban legend that grew from a much less colorful quote from Haughy.

    Sorry I bow to your superior knowledge on ff leaders of ill repute.
    timesnap wrote: »
    Around here? what does that mean exactly, a clique who post on the politics forum and like only the posts they agree with or thank the mods they fear will infract them.?

    I am probably the least likely to be thanking mods and most likely infracted for my views.
    In fact I am off to Politics.ie now.
    timesnap wrote: »
    grow up or grow down whichever applies to you.

    Did i mention that i have no time for people who make their points by using the :rolleyes: smiley?

    Did I mention I have no time for ffers or ex ffers whose support of that party has doomed this country for generations.
    later12 wrote: »
    ...
    As for Fianna Fail, this is a wonderful day for the party. It represents, to my mind, the final credits for the motion-picture-like era that has been the Bertie Era. The party could never really move on from the 2011 election because this was constantly hanging overhead.
    After the party considers Mahon and issues its rejection of the behaviour of Ahern, Flynn, Lawlor, Wright, Reynolds et al., I think the party will be glad to assess itself, and finally move away from the shadow of the politically ugliest period in its history.

    You might think or hope that ff can move on from this whole era, but the rest of us can't and won't that easily.
    We will be paying for the bertie era and what you label as the ugliest period in the party's history for generations.

    If you are a member then leave, join another party or start one from scratch but don't give some bullsh** about starting afresh when you have at the top table the ones that supported and backed for years the same one you now are conveniently jettisioning.
    timesnap wrote: »
    Kidding aside today was a day of shame,it must be almost as devastating to many who stood by Bertie as how Americans felt when Nixon finally stepped down, a much smaller scale i know but i am in the pitts at todays unfolding events.:(

    The rest of us, non ff suporters, have been in the pitts for years watching as a long line of ff dodgy characters used this country as their private plaything to feather their own and their supporters' nests.
    timesnap wrote: »
    it was worse than even the biggist cynic expected i think.

    Why do you see it in negative terms ?
    Most of us see it as positive that corruption, unethical dealings and lying was outed at last.
    JustinDee wrote: »
    "A good day at the races" was John Gilligan's defence too and thats not where the similarities end either.

    I expect CAB to be rifling through the business and personal affairs of a few politicans with the same zeal they showed when after gilligan. :rolleyes:

    I am not allowed discuss …



  • #119
    timesnap
    Closed Accounts Posts: 423 ✭✭timesnap


    jmayo wrote: »
    Ahh why not try and increase the Labour vote, or another party, instead if you want a non one party state ?



    And what about who voted in the people that place those people ?
    If you don't remove dodgy politicans then you will never solve the problems.



    And I am getting pi**ed at ex ffers now being indignant and claiming they were fooled.



    Sorry I bow to your superior knowledge on ff leaders of ill repute.



    I am probably the least likely to be thanking mods and most likely infracted for my views.
    In fact I am off to Politics.ie now.



    Did I mention I have no time for ffers or ex ffers whose support of that party has doomed this country for generations.



    You might think or hope that ff can move on from this whole era, but the rest of us can't and won't that easily.
    We will be paying for the bertie era and what you label as the ugliest period in the party's history for generations.

    If you are a member then leave, join another party or start one from scratch but don't give some bullsh** about starting afresh when you have at the top table the ones that supported and backed for years the same one you now are conveniently jettisioning.



    The rest of us, non ff suporters, have been in the pitts for years watching as a long line of ff dodgy characters used this country as their private plaything to feather their own and their supporters' nests.



    Why do you see it in negative terms ?
    Most of us see it as positive that corruption, unethical dealings and lying was outed at last.



    I expect CAB to be rifling through the business and personal affairs of a few politicans with the same zeal they showed when after gilligan. :rolleyes:

    You just refuse to read from my first post onwards on this thread don't you?
    I was barely out of nappies when this tribunal was set up.
    I despise FF,i despise how they brought us to our knees,i also agree that the current shower will only be less corrupt because they know they will have to be.
    when i said 'A pox on all their houses' it is because i am disillusioned beyond belief and if there was a way to start from scratch it would be the best solution for us.
    i was the first to say here yesterday that the only shred of dignity they could muster now would be to disband.


  • #120
    thecommietommy
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 564 ✭✭✭thecommietommy


    Former Fianna Fáil minister Padraig Flynn has rejected the findings of the Mahon tribunal which branded him corrupt. "During my lifetime of involvement in politics I have never sought nor have I ever received a corrupt payment," Mr Flynn said in a brief statement today. "I absolutely reject any such finding of this tribunal in that regard."

    Read more: http://www.irishexaminer.com/breakin...#ixzz1pwvyEvgN


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  • #121
    Einhard
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,920 ✭✭✭Einhard


    Villain wrote: »
    Hold on a minute, the ordinary voter was prevented from been told that Bertie was not telling the truth at the Tribunal, the media and even popular sites such as this one weren't willing to allow people to state what the evidence clearly showed.

    Now I'm sure you are aware of McDowell's legal credentials giving his legal knowledge I find it amazing that he couldn't read the transcripts and see that the evidence clearly showed that what Bertie said COULDN'T be true, take the Dollar transaction as the easiest one. It was clear he wasn't telling the truth however because of his position McDowell and others were afraid to say what the evidence clearly showed.

    It wasn't just Bertie though. People were well aware that there was something iffy about Haughey's lordly pretensions and lavish lifestyle; the people of Tipperary continue to support Lowry even after another tribunal has found against him; the people of Mayo continue to stand behind the Flynns, even though father and daughter have been shown to be compromises. The Irish people clamour for accountability and retribution, and yet they continue to vote for those fumbling in the greasy till.
    Villain wrote: »
    I disagree I think a lot of people fell for Bertie's tears in his interview with Dobbo and believed him.

    And did they fall for Lowry's tears, or Lawlor's, or Haughey's?


  • #122
    Shea O'Meara
    Closed Accounts Posts: 960 ✭✭✭Shea O'Meara


    timesnap wrote: »
    So it is official Bertie Flynn and three CC's names will be put to the executive for expulsion next week.what an end to Bertie's career.
    MM had to do it,still way too little,way to late for FF though.
    Dev must be turning in his grave.

    Seriously it's like banging your head against a brick wall...
    Dev was more blatantly crooked than any of them since. HE STOLE MONEY FROM IRISH PEOPLE AT HOME AND ABROAD.
    He sold shares to the public which were worthless and kept the money generating shares for his family. FRAUDSTER.
    He used patriotism as a lure and if he is turning in his grave it's because he's on a spit in hell.


  • #123
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Einhard wrote: »
    And did they fall for Lowry's tears, or Lawlor's, or Haughey's?

    Or the O' Snodaighs, for that matter.


  • #124
    timesnap
    Closed Accounts Posts: 423 ✭✭timesnap


    Shea O'Meara wrote: »
    Seriously it's like banging your head against a brick wall...
    Dev was more blatantly crooked than any of them since. HE STOLE MONEY FROM IRISH PEOPLE AT HOME AND ABROAD.
    He sold shares to the public which were worthless and kept the money generating shares for his family. FRAUDSTER.
    He used patriotism as a lure and if he is turning in his grave it's because he's on a spit in hell.

    Please tell me in which post i disagree with any of that?
    he kept us in the stone age through his Catholic approved Constitution.


  • #125
    Laminations
    Registered Users Posts: 4,693 ✭✭✭Laminations


    @Sierra Oscar

    Bump.
    jank wrote: »
    Are you and the wider FF parliamentary party going to demand the resignation of those members of the cabinet who sought to underime the tribunal in an effort to collapse it?

    If not, why not and how can you claim reformation and renewal? So Bertie is toxic but those senior members that supported him and attacked the tribunal are of a good enough caliber for FF?

    If yes, where's the statement from Ogra FF or elsewhere?


  • #126
    ElWalrus
    Registered Users Posts: 173 ✭✭ElWalrus


    I agree with some previous posters and believe that this corruption is endemic in our society and I would think that almost everyone would have come across even anecdotal evidence of this, from people on the dole doing 'nixers', exaggerated insurance claims, bangers miraculously passing NCT tests, the list goes on.

    As long as people are willing to overlook these 'minor' transgressions as just getting one over on the system, the events of the Mahon tribunal are destined to repeat themselves. Politics at the moment is the perfect breeding ground for attracting this kind of behavior and magnifying it, much in the same way that that sexual predators were drawn to the Catholic Church. The elements are all there, power and influence, lack of accountability, making empty promises that you don't have to deliver on.

    I think there needs to be a zero tolerance policy on corruption in all facets of society, maybe then it won't filter to the top so easily.

    As for the Ahern and Flynn's public statements on the tribunal.


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  • #127
    jonsnow
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 724 ✭✭✭jonsnow


    thecommietommy wrote: »
    Former Fianna Fáil minister Padraig Flynn has rejected the findings of the Mahon tribunal which branded him corrupt. "During my lifetime of involvement in politics I have never sought nor have I ever received a corrupt payment," Mr Flynn said in a brief statement today. "I absolutely reject any such finding of this tribunal in that regard."

    Read more: http://www.irishexaminer.com/breakin...#ixzz1pwvyEvgN

    And I absolutely reject his rejection


  • #128
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    ElWalrus wrote: »
    I agree with some previous posters and believe that this corruption is endemic in our society and I would think that almost everyone would have come across even anecdotal evidence of this, from people on the dole doing 'nixers', exaggerated insurance claims, bangers miraculously passing NCT tests, the list goes on.

    As long as people are willing to overlook these 'minor' transgressions as just getting one over on the system, the events of the Mahon tribunal are destined to repeat themselves.

    Well, well, well said.


  • #129
    steelcityblues
    Registered Users Posts: 4,630 ✭✭✭steelcityblues


    Compared to Ahern and Flynn, you could barely find critical discussion of him in the national newspapers today. Given the tribunal has levelled him of 'abusing political power', those are hardly small words, plus being a former Taoiseach, he really has gone under the radar since yesterday.

    Maybe it is down to the other two being viewed as more interesting characters to focus attention on?


  • #130
    K-9
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 43,311 ✭✭✭✭K-9


    steelcityblues wrote: »
    Compared to Ahern and Flynn, you could barely find critical discussion of him in the national newspapers today. Given the tribunal has levelled him of 'abusing political power', those are hardly small words, plus being a former Taoiseach, he really has gone under the radar since yesterday.

    Maybe it is down to the other two being viewed as more interesting characters to focus attention on?


    I suppose he only had a relatively short time and he is kind of old news now, doesn't get much recognition for the North either! Had his fair share of controversies in his day, passports for sale and of course the now obligatory tribunal!

    Mad Men's Don Draper : What you call love was invented by guys like me, to sell nylons.



  • #131
    steelcityblues
    Registered Users Posts: 4,630 ✭✭✭steelcityblues


    K-9 wrote: »
    I suppose he only had a relatively short time and he is kind of old news now, doesn't get much recognition for the North either! Had his fair share of controversies in his day, passports for sale and of course the now obligatory tribunal!

    I admire his legacy on the North - did more there than any Taoiseach before or after, but his personal political conduct seems highly dubious.


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  • #132
    jonsnow
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 724 ✭✭✭jonsnow


    steelcityblues wrote: »
    I admire his legacy on the North - did more there than any Taoiseach before or after, but his personal political conduct seems highly dubious.

    Thats more or less how I feel.He was in some ways a good taoiseach and got an awful lot done in a short time but it was his moral laxity which brought him mdown and is now continuing to tarnish his legacy.


  • #133
    Wider Road
    Registered Users Posts: 196 ✭✭Wider Road


    ElWalrus wrote: »
    I agree with some previous posters and believe that this corruption is endemic in our society and I would think that almost everyone would have come across even anecdotal evidence of this, from people on the dole doing 'nixers', exaggerated insurance claims, bangers miraculously passing NCT tests, the list goes on.




    On radio Friday morning Joe Higgins said more than once that the FF & FG leaders during the 80's & 90's knew about the illegal payments to their councillors. These comments weren't challenged by anyone one the panel. This implies that Charlie Haughey, Albert Reynolds, Bertie Ahern, Garrett Fitzgerald, Alan Dukes, John Bruton & Ml Noonan (in Joe Higgins words) did nothing about corruption in Dublin. Why?


  • #134
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    charlemont wrote: »
    Justice will only be served on these guys when their cronies in all the government bodies and justice system are weeded out.

    Glad some other people are picking up on this.

    The Gardai basically colluded with FF. Cabinets appoint Garda promotions from Superintendent right up to Commissioner meaning a party in long enough can fill the management structure of the Gardai with their friends.

    This is the goddamned reason we have no bankers in jail, its the reason we have no politicians in jail despite this report showing that they were corrupt.


    We need huge sweeping reform across the board in Ireland. From the political system to top Gardai right through to all the golden circles sitting on each others boards. Just take a look at who has been on the Central Bank boards since the bubble began and who sat on the banks boards and who they are related to and who they go to dinner with. A sharp journalist will pick up on this. Speaking of media take a look at RTE and how many of them are related to FF members.

    I say .........WIDE SWEEPING REFORM..............


  • #135
    Sierra Oscar
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 8,527 CMod ✭✭✭✭Sierra Oscar


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Glad some other people are picking up on this.

    The Gardai basically colluded with FF. Cabinets appoint Garda promotions from Superintendent right up to Commissioner meaning a party in long enough can fill the management structure of the Gardai with their friends.

    This is the goddamned reason we have no bankers in jail, its the reason we have no politicians in jail despite this report showing that they were corrupt.

    Indeed - this is something which everyone seems to be overlooking when discussing the Mahon Report. I would not necessarily go as far as to say that the Gardai colluded with the government, but it is clear that certain senior Gardai had the belief that the 1989 investigation had to be shelved if they wanted their career to progress. That sort of pressure felt by senior Gardai will be felt so long as promotions to positions from Superintendent and above are political promotions. That quite simply has to be changed, and the whole process needs to be much more transparent. Politicians have too much influence over Gardai and the wider justice system - one need only examine the representation's that TD's make on behalf of individuals under investigation and the likes to recognise that.

    This whole idea of Ray Burke overseeing a corruption investigation as Minister for Defence is also just an absolute joke - it is no surprise the investigation did not proceed.


  • #136
    Pedro K
    Registered Users Posts: 1,203 ✭✭✭Pedro K


    Surely there is enough to warrant the C.A.B. having a trawl through Bertie's personal finances. He failed to truthfully disclose the source of many of the sums of money associated with him.

    When being investigated by C.A.B. the onus is on the person being investigated to prove the source of the money was legal. Also, the beaurau only need to prove on the balance of probabilities that the money was gained illegally.

    Surely enough there to investigate Bertie, no?


  • #137
    Wider Road
    Registered Users Posts: 196 ✭✭Wider Road


    Pedro K wrote: »
    Surely there is enough to warrant the C.A.B. having a trawl through Bertie's personal finances. He failed to truthfully disclose the source of many of the sums of money associated with him.

    When being investigated by C.A.B. the onus is on the person being investigated to prove the source of the money was legal. Also, the beaurau only need to prove on the balance of probabilities that the money was gained illegally.

    Surely enough there to investigate Bertie, no?



    You're right,
    Investigate Bertie, Flynn, Lawlor, Burke etc.
    But why stop there?
    A year ago we had the Moriarty Report, what do you think should happen there? Should we no be aware of ex- FG Minister Lowry's and O'Brien's findings in that tribunal and send in C.A.B. also?
    Do you agree?
    Did you mention C.A.B. a year ago when the Moriarty report came out?
    Do you agree with Joe Higgins when he said on radio that leaders of FF and FG knew in the 80's and the 90's that there was corruption in the Dublin planning authorities?


  • #138
    Pedro K
    Registered Users Posts: 1,203 ✭✭✭Pedro K


    Wider Road wrote: »
    You're right,
    Investigate Bertie, Flynn, Lawlor, Burke etc.
    But why stop there?
    A year ago we had the Moriarty Report, what do you think should happen there? Should we no be aware of ex- FG Minister Lowry's and O'Brien's findings in that tribunal and send in C.A.B. also?
    Do you agree?
    Did you mention C.A.B. a year ago when the Moriarty report came out?
    Do you agree with Joe Higgins when he said on radio that leaders of FF and FG knew in the 80's and the 90's that there was corruption in the Dublin planning authorities?
    I can't remember if I mentioned C.A.B. on boards when the moriarty report came out or not. I don't post a great deal and my first instinct isn't always to post here upon hearing news.

    I can assure you that I was equally outraged and unsurprised when Moriarty published his findings.

    Also, I never said stop at Bertie.

    I don't know if you're trying to have ago at me in that post or not?


  • #139
    DJP
    Registered Users Posts: 359 ✭✭DJP


    Aodhán Ó Ríordáin TD- Tuarascáil Mahon


  • #140
    Sierra Oscar
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 8,527 CMod ✭✭✭✭Sierra Oscar


    Wider Road wrote: »
    You're right,
    Investigate Bertie, Flynn, Lawlor, Burke etc.
    But why stop there?
    A year ago we had the Moriarty Report, what do you think should happen there? Should we no be aware of ex- FG Minister Lowry's and O'Brien's findings in that tribunal and send in C.A.B. also?
    Do you agree?
    Did you mention C.A.B. a year ago when the Moriarty report came out?
    Do you agree with Joe Higgins when he said on radio that leaders of FF and FG knew in the 80's and the 90's that there was corruption in the Dublin planning authorities?

    The Moriarty report was sent to CAB was it not? It is a joke that absolutely no movement has been made on the Garda investigation, and I doubt any movement will be made either. It could be investigated but it would require an awful lot of probing - and who knows what could emerge.

    And that is where we come back to senior Garda management - do you really think an Assistant Commissioner tasked with overseeing the investigation wants to go ahead and have his men ask the difficult questions, which could potentially annoy current members of the cabinet? Ha, fat chance.


  • #141
    transylman
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 602 ✭✭✭transylman


    For those interested, here is the link to the thread (the only one that was allowed on here) from the period when Ahern was before the tribunal.

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055147722


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  • #142
    southsiderosie
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,565 ✭✭✭southsiderosie


    MOD NOTE:
    Darren J. Prior wrote: »
    Aodhán Ó Ríordáin TD- Tuarascáil Mahon

    Per the charter, please do not post links without some explanation of what they contain. Just throwing up a link does nothing to further discussion.
    transylman wrote: »
    For those interested, here is the link to the thread (the only one that was allowed on here) from the period when Ahern was before the tribunal.

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055147722

    The issue of past - i repeat, past - moderation of Mahon-related threads has already been addressed on this very thread. You don't need to keep banging that drum.


  • #143
    jank
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 13,018 ✭✭✭✭jank


    Laminations wrote: »
    @Sierra Oscar

    Bump.


    If not, why not and how can you claim reformation and renewal? So Bertie is toxic but those senior members that supported him and attacked the tribunal are of a good enough caliber for FF?

    If yes, where's the statement from Ogra FF or elsewhere?

    Bump again.

    You going to answer Sierra Oscar or are you going to ignore the question which I think is very valid and relevant.


  • #144
    Sierra Oscar
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 8,527 CMod ✭✭✭✭Sierra Oscar


    jank wrote: »
    Bump again.

    You going to answer Sierra Oscar or are you going to ignore the question which I think is very valid and relevant.

    Oh, I am all flustered by all of this attention! :)

    In regards the comments made towards the tribunal by senior cabinet members, they should have known better and simply not commented at all. However if you actually go back and examine the context of those quotes which have been played over and over during the last few days you will find that most of the cabinet ministers were replying to queries put to them by various journalists - and quite a few of those queries centered around the tribunal in the context of its long running time and exorbitant costs.

    Lets face it, it is an absolute joke that the tribunal spent a decade and a half investigating this matter whilst in the process spending as much as it did to do so. The government came in for a lot of stick in regards this, with the narrative often surrounding the operation of the tribunal rather than what it was investigating. However at the end of the day, government ministers should not have commented publicly in the way they did. Yes they were being asked to give personal opinions by journalists but all the same it should have been recognized that the independence of the tribunal was paramount.

    The important matter however is that Micheál Martin has thoroughly accepted the findings of the tribunal, has moved against those named in the report and perhaps most importantly he has admitted a mistake on his behalf in defending Bertie during the investigation. Undoubtedly it has damaged Micheál Martin's reputation - that is clearly evident as we are discussing it here and now. However I do not think that it will be necessary for him to stand down as leader of the party.

    EDIT: Sorry for not getting back to you on this as quickly as you would have liked - I cannot be here to continually give my own personal view. I ain't no FF spokesperson, keep that in mind!


  • #145
    ednwireland
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,452 ✭✭✭✭ednwireland


    Éamon Ó Cuív says files should have been sent dpp upto 15 years ago, now where was he at this point , oh yes, in cabinet, thi s has conveniently only occured to him now



    Fianna Fáil TD Éamon Ó Cuív, speaking on Raidió na Gaeltachta's Iris Aniar this morning in relation to the Mahon Report, said that he could not understand why people were not formally charged with crimes if they were seen to be breaking the law.

    He said that files which related to law-breaking should have been given by the Mahon Tribunal to the Director of Public Prosecutions or to the gardaí up to 15 years ago, and criminal proceedings put in place at that stage.

    http://www.rte.ie/news/2012/0326/mahon.html

    My weather

    https://www.ecowitt.net/home/share?authorize=96CT1F



  • #146
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    FF have confirmed Bertie has jumped before he was pushed (again). His resignation was received this morning by letter, but they won't comment further as the same matter concerning P. Flynn and the rest of the bunch is still up for discussion at their meeting.

    I can hear the line he'll take steadfastly already, " I chose to leave the party, of my own accord, and with no credible evidence against me" etc. :mad:

    Ugh, it just sickens me. My one hope is that CAB will eventually catch up with him and we'll finally have the last laugh. The burden of proof will lie with HIM when they do, and they'll have no truck with his usual"whip arounds" and "good days at the races" sh1te.


  • #147
    jmayo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,186 ✭✭✭✭jmayo


    Sierra Oscar wrote: »
    The systematic corruption within the political system is just sick.
    [/QUOTE]

    Nice of a ff member to make sure everyone knows it was systemic. :rolleyes:
    But what about the fact three ff leaders and taoisigh have fruad and corruption now associated with them ?
    You need to go back to Lynch to find a ff leader not deemed to have been steeped in unethical, dodgy, probably corrupt dealings who was surrounded by pretty corrupt high ranking members.

    PS I am being generous and not mentioning your last leader seeing that he sold us all out to the IMF. :mad:
    Sierra Oscar wrote: »
    The Moriarty report was sent to CAB was it not? It is a joke that absolutely no movement has been made on the Garda investigation, and I doubt any movement will be made either. It could be investigated but it would require an awful lot of probing - and who knows what could emerge.

    And how long ago was the bank guarantee and the revelations about Anglo/INBS, the Anglo share support scheme, etc ?
    How long ago was it that certain legal professionals in this country were found to have acted illegally obtaining mortgages ?
    How many ponzi scheme operators have been discovered in Ireland yet none have faced prosecution ?
    Do you have any idea how slow our system works investigating anything remotely related to white collar crime ?
    It is a joke.
    Sierra Oscar wrote: »
    And that is where we come back to senior Garda management - do you really think an Assistant Commissioner tasked with overseeing the investigation wants to go ahead and have his men ask the difficult questions, which could potentially annoy current members of the cabinet? Ha, fat chance.

    I know it might annoy one ministers brother. :D

    As regards seeking a full fruad corruption investigation into the awarding of the mobile phone license be careful what you wish for.
    Much as I would like to see lowry and o'brien get their ars** kicked, the fallout in terms of lawsuits flying from the other tenderers would not be something the taxpayers of this country could now afford.

    BTW seeing as you are doing such a good job of reminding us of how lowry was a part of a Fine Gael/Labour/DL government I think people should be reminded he got a very nice taxpayer funded deal in order to support a ff led government.

    Obviously he wasn't tranished enough then to be accepted by ff. :rolleyes:

    I am not allowed discuss …



  • #148
    barney4001
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,447 ✭✭✭barney4001


    the only people this tribunal will benefit are the solicitors involved in it,what a waste of public funds


  • #149
    Dodge
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,308 ✭✭✭✭Dodge


    barney4001 wrote: »
    the only people this tribunal will benefit are the solicitors involved in it,what a waste of public funds

    Go on then, share your cost/benefit analysis with us showing how much it cost, and how much it brought into the state coffers


  • #150
    femur61
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,588 ✭✭✭femur61


    Dodge wrote: »
    Go on then, share your cost/benefit analysis with us showing how much it cost, and how much it brought into the state coffers


    All the Tribuanl has done is highlight how stupid we are as a nation. We voted the fkers election after election and now we are being bullied by big Phil. What has he to hide? He suppressed an enquiry into his own constituency.

    Nothing has changed or will cahnge.


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