Should children be expected to care for their parents in old age?

SparkyTech · 02-07-2011 9:55pm #1

With many of us living, or expecting to live, into old age, and the cost of caring for our elderly/pensions/nursing home care under debate, should today's generation be forced to provide room and board for their ageing parents?

Are the parents responsible for financially securing their elderly care/affairs? Is it the responsibility of the state to look after the elderly ,or is it a combination of responsibility between the parents and their children?

What do you think?

Jaafa · 02-07-2011 10:03pm

Children should give their elderly parents everything they need. Don't rely on the state.

Mike 1972 · 02-07-2011 10:07pm

SparkyTech wrote: »

What do you think?

You first !

pragmatic1 · 02-07-2011 10:10pm

If they paid taxes the state should shoulder some of the work. Childern should also play their part. No one loves you like your parents and you owe them for basically everything. I'd never see my auld ones stuck.

maglite · 02-07-2011 10:11pm

Yes, who else will,

The state gets its money from the working generation. The other option would be take them out back and shoot them for squandering their money.

omahaid · 02-07-2011 10:13pm

Yep, that's why we're going to have 15 of them. Wife doesn't know this yet though

SparkyTech · 02-07-2011 10:13pm

pragmatic1 wrote: »

If they paid taxes the state should shoulder some of the work. Childern should also play their part. No one loves you like your parents and you owe them for basically everything. I'd never see my auld ones stuck.

Mike 1972 wrote: »

You first !

I share the same opinion as pragmatic. Some of the responsibility lies with the state, some of it lies with the kids.

Mike 1972 · 02-07-2011 10:17pm

The state should be responsible where the individuals cannot meet the cost from their own assets.

pragmatic1 wrote: »

No one loves you like your parents and you owe them for basically everything.

Generalise much ?

flutterflye · 02-07-2011 10:22pm

In a way I'd love this.
I would get to treat my dad the way he treated me.
Unfortunately I don't think I have it in me to be that deliberately cruel though.

Anyway, I can see the 'for' side to this argument.
-To help those who brought you up when their time comes to be the ones needing looking after.
-To save on money
-To save on national tax (the little that goes to care of the elderly)
-To assist having a more functional, united society
-To ensure the elderly are not lonely, scared, unwell, vulnerable, easy targets for theft etc...

However it is not even remotely feasible.
(Where I say 'children', I mean the adult children)
-What about when the parents or children are estranged? (ill treatment, ethical issues, feuds, anything really)
-What if the parent left the family home and never knew the child?
-The children would need regular vetting and monitoring to ensure the parent was being cared for properly
-The children may be in a bad financial situation
-The children may have family, work, or other responsibilities that cannot be dropped
-The children may not have sufficient accommodation for the parent
-The child may be physically or mentally unwell or unfit to care for the parent

Oh there's loads more pro's and con's, but it is clear to me that it would never work on a practical level.

Chuck Stone · 02-07-2011 10:24pm

It depends.

Parents who deserve it should be cared for.

Parents who don't should die as they lived.

Mike 1972 · 02-07-2011 10:25pm

flutterflye wrote: »

However it is not even remotely feasible.

You left out a few.

The kids live abroad
The kids died before their parents
The person in question never had kids

AnneElizabeth · 02-07-2011 10:28pm

Of course not! My mother constantly complains about how wrong it is that old people expect to be minded by their children. Some man she knows has taken six months unpaid leave to mind his mother...
I've already picked an old folks home for my parents :P

policarp · 02-07-2011 10:39pm

Bring back the olden days when there was big families.
There was always someone there to do something...

flutterflye · 02-07-2011 10:39pm

Mike 1972 wrote: »

You left out a few.

The kids live abroad
The kids died before their parents
The person in question never had kids

That is why I also said the following...

flutterflye wrote: »

Oh there's loads more pro's and con's, but it is clear to me that it would never work on a practical level.

But yes, they are all extremely valid points.

crotalus667 · 02-07-2011 11:01pm

only if they want to and can do , not every one can provide propper care

smk89 · 02-07-2011 11:02pm

Jaafa wrote: »

Children should give their elderly parents everything they need. Don't rely on the state.

This isn't the musketeers club. All for one and one for all, if the state organises a system and does it well they can make it cheaper and better than if we all go it alone.

themadchef · 02-07-2011 11:11pm

Zombies will have us before then....

They are coming you know, to feast on your goo.

stovelid · 02-07-2011 11:12pm

I would love to see a society where provision for the well being of children and the elderly was paramount even if it required higher taxes.

In the absence of such, I will do everything I possibly can to care my parents if they need me.

I understand that many of the sentiments in this post ( less money in your pocket to care for others or filial love and repayment) will be repugnant to many AH posters but there you go.

Jaafa wrote: »

Children should give their elderly parents everything they need. Don't rely on the state.

Bollocks.

I will have paid the bones of 40 years of tax by the time I retire. It's not unreasonable to want a society where some kind of provision for the elderly is provided,.

katiebelle · 02-07-2011 11:24pm

Parents can be very stubborn about not taking any help. I had thought when my mum first became ill they were coping. Then I found my mother sitting in her own wee in the sitting room. She could not make it to the bathroom in time. I had to step in and organize many of the practical things like adult nappies 24 hour oxygen stair lift etc. My parents flat out refused to let a home help in the door. They were easily entitled to this but would not have strangers in the house. It put more pressure on me even though i was working full time , single parent and so on you know the drill. My many siblings just walked away from this situation and really only got involved at the very end when my mother was finally in a nursing home as my dad and I could no longer cope. All they had to do was visit her from time to time and they could not even manage that.
Now its my dads turn and again Its down to me. He is very elderly but still somewhat independent but wont take any supports like home help. What do you do in that situation ???

flutterflye · 02-07-2011 11:24pm

policarp wrote: »

Bring back the olden days when there was big families.
There was always someone there to do something...

I actually love the idea of the olden day large family community, and the way some nationalities, and some tribes all work together in a similar manner.

The thing is though that it is simply not functional in our present society.
The nuclear family is here because it is what works.
There are so many reasons why it is the way it is, and why it remains this way.
Unless there is some major shift in societal or economical structure (bigger than our current recession), I cannot envision this occurring in the foreseeable future.

In our world of information, services, materialism, greed, transport, education, mass media, urbanisation, medical advances etc... and all that comes with it, a large community style family unit is not really compatible for society to function.

Nice idea in an ideal word though....

Eh... may have gone a tad off topic again.

OPENROAD · 02-07-2011 11:26pm

I look after my mum and have done for 8 years, I never thought about not looking after her as she is my my best friend, not just my mum and this has certainly made it easier for me to do it, oh the likes of AH helps also

As she has gotten worse, I now have to do everything for her, and when I say everything I mean everything

It is very much a 24/7 thing.

What I would like to see is more recognition from the state for the work all carers do. Mainly because Carers save the state an absolute fortune every year.

Cork Lass · 02-07-2011 11:26pm

My father lives in a care home. He has alzhiemers and is completely incoherent as well as wheelchair bound. He paid his taxes (full and plenty I might add) and is now in a private home availing of the Fair Deal scheme. We still pay a portion of his fees and will pay a percentage from the sale of the house at a later stage. I think he deserves this as if we were to care for him it would mean 1 if not 2 of us having to give up work to do so. This in turn would lead to us applying for carers allowance. So what would be the difference in cost to the state? I admire anyone who does this but would not expect it from my children or spouse and have made this very clear to them.

flutterflye · 02-07-2011 11:28pm

katiebelle wrote: »

What do you do in that situation ???

That sounds very tough. For all of you.

I don't know what you can do, but maybe ask your doctor or phn?

ejmaztec · 02-07-2011 11:29pm

AnneElizabeth wrote: »

Of course not! My mother constantly complains about how wrong it is that old people expect to be minded by their children. Some man she knows has taken six months unpaid leave to mind his mother...
I've already picked an old folks home for my parents :P

Didn't the HSE close that one a couple of weeks ago?

Sardonicat · 02-07-2011 11:42pm

Having worked in many nursing homes I can categorically state that you would have to kill me before i would allow my father into one of those places. And I'm talking about the good ones here.

I nursed my mother at home when she was dying from cancer and I am staying with my dad. He doesnt need much in the way of care now but as he ages this is likely to change. Caring for parents wouldnt be the heavy task it is if families spread the burden between them. Saddly, in most cases, one person is left to shoulder the load alone while the rest happily get on with their lives. They excuse this selfishness with glib lip serivce and double edged praise for the carer (isn't she fantastic, i wouldnt have the patience....). while i agree that the state should provide a decent elder care service, the fact is it doesnt. If you want to ensure decent, dignified care for your folks the only thing to do is to provide it yourself.

katiebelle · 02-07-2011 11:59pm

Sardonicat wrote: »

Having worked in many nursing homes I can categorically state that you would have to kill me before i would allow my father into one of those places. And I'm talking about the good ones here.

That's a comment that sends a chill down my spine. My mother was in one of the better homes and it had a total open door policy . I went at all times of the day and night. I did still have to weigh in and get heavy with the staff on occasion because of certain issues. At least she was not there too long as she passed away shortly after going in there.

I doubt my father will end up in one. I would be in a better position I think to be able to take him in. Besides he is all there cognitively and he would refuse to go into one anyway

oldyouth · 03-07-2011 12:08am

I wanted for nothing, either physical or emotional, as I grew up. The question doesn't bear considerarion as far as I am concerned, though I appreciate it isn't the same for everyone

policarp · 03-07-2011 12:29am

flutterflye wrote: »

Nice idea in an ideal word though....

Eh... may have gone a tad off topic again.

Yuppie 2.4 Kids per family means parents pay for everything and then some...
In the old days the Eldest son got the farm, the next could be a Priest or a Christian Brother , girls were second class citisens to be sold off to the best suitor.

Lady Chatterton · 03-07-2011 1:09am

Sardonicat wrote: »

Caring for parents wouldnt be the heavy task it is if families spread the burden between them. Sadly, in most cases, one person is left to shoulder the load alone while the rest happily get on with their lives. They excuse this selfishness with glib lip serivce and double edged praise for the carer (isn't she fantastic, i wouldnt have the patience....)

Sardy, I completely agree with you, people can be incredibly selfish sometimes. One of my best friends has taken leave from work to care for her mother who is ill. My friend is one of five adult children but she is the only one who isn't married so the rest of them have left the role of caring to her. It is very unfair and I can see her becoming completely burn out and ill herself as she is on the go 24/7.

As you say if families pulled together it would make the load lighter. My granny is in her eighties and she has six children and loads of grandchildren, we have a rota in place and everyone helps out so thankfully, she is happy and able to live an independent life at home despite having serious health issues.

Lady Chatterton · 03-07-2011 1:14am

OPENROAD wrote: »

I look after my mum and have done for 8 years, I never thought about not looking after her as she is my my best friend, not just my mum and this has certainly made it easier for me to do it, oh the likes of AH helps also

As she has gotten worse, I now have to do everything for her, and when I say everything I mean everything It is very much a 24/7 thing.

What I would like to see is more recognition from the state for the work all carers do. Mainly because Carers save the state an absolute fortune every year.

Your mam is so lucky to have someone as kind and considerate as you in her life to look after her.

Sardonicat · 03-07-2011 1:23am

Just to ad; I'm not judging anyone who has had to place an elderly relative into care. I know there are times when care at home is just not feasable. But please, please research any care homes well and make sure you choose one with an open door policy 24/7 and don't be afraid to drop in any time, esp if your relative has dementia or their ability to communicate is impaired.

I've worked in places where the staff nurse just went to sleep at night and left me to make sure the patients were ok overnight. On top of this I had to clean, do laundry and load the dishwasher and prepare for breakfast in the morning. What you need to remember is that care assistants are there to care for patients, not do general domestic work. If your relative is in a place at night where the care staff are doing the housework they are at a greater risk of falling or becoming ill without anyone noticing because the carers cant do the work they are supposed to do. things like this are a give away. Always call in at night, stay til about 11pm and have a good look around.

stovelid · 03-07-2011 1:23am

oldyouth wrote: »

though I appreciate it isn't the same for everyone

Unfortunately so.

crazypanda · 03-07-2011 3:38am

I've already told mine that they better have enough saved to take care of themselves cause I'm not doing it. It's payback time.

Oranage2 · 03-07-2011 5:06am

i don't care as long as its not me, one of my biggest fear is being stuck lookin after a parent

jive · 03-07-2011 5:13am

If they cared for you, then you should care for them.

Lord TSC · 03-07-2011 5:55am

flutterflye wrote: »

In a way I'd love this.
I would get to treat my dad the way he treated me.
Unfortunately I don't think I have it in me to be that deliberately cruel though.

Was what I was going to say, to the letter. But, same as you, don't think I could be that cruel so I'll likely just leave him to fend for himself and take care of himself....

The_Conductor · 03-07-2011 6:58am

Personally I think that we have to come to some sort of a consensus as to what are automatic rights for the elderly, and how we propose to pay for them.......

Many people can be independent into their 80s or even their 90s- while others might suffer impairments before then- so while the elderly might be presumed to have rights- we have to be able to arbitrarily decipher when these should kick in- and it should be on a means basis, not on an age related basis.

So- should the state be in the business of providing nursing home places? Personally I don't think so. I do think that there should be mandatory care in the home, alongside homehelp, by properly vetted nurses and homehelpers- and that this should kick in automatically if there are certain preconditions met- such as- a diagnosis of alzheimers, oncology treatment being undertaken, other predefined health conditions on either the part of an individual, their partner or a nominated carer, which potentially changes the care structure or endangers the health of another person presumed to be caring for an elderly person........

Next- we have to decide how to pay for this. So what that we've all paid tax- last time I checked there was no pool of money ringfenced to care for the elderly- it all comes out of either the private means of the elderly or their relatives- or current government expenditure. The fair means scheme- was a reintroduction of death taxes by the back door- but far from condemning it- I think its to be applauded. If the government are to provide more community nurses, home help etc- let them take a whack of my estate when I die- its not going to be of any use to me one way or the other. Make it a fair tax though- x% across the board- regardless of how wealthy a person may be. If the rich want to pay for extra frills privately- let them. However provide communities nurses, homehelp and hot meals for those unable to do so themselves.

There is a presumption built into our current systems that the elderly are among the worse off in the communities- and that society should care for them- when in fact they rarely have mortgages and have assets far exceeding those of the average person- so while they should have care in their old age- there is no reason whatsoever that there shouldn't be a reasonable effort to recoup the cost of this care when they pass away.

I would also do away with the right of people to refuse assistance- unless a person can satisfactorily show they are capable of exceeding the basic rights of the community nurse/homehelp/mealschemes- they should be forced to accept this help.

Some older people see it as below themselves to admit they need help- regardless of how bad things get- I'm not sure where this mindset evolved from- but it is a bad thing........ Its the same mindset that refuse to use vouchers or coupons when they're shopping........ If I get a voucher from Huggies for a couple of quid off nappies- I'm damn well going to use (or indeed any other grocery vouchers).........

Should children be expected to care for their parents in their old age? There are plenty of reasons why they shouldn't- many detailed in previous posts in this thread. Historically the youngest girl stayed at home and gave up her life to care for her parents- or in farming communities- the son and daughter in-law inheriting the farm were expected to provide for their elderly parents. As a society we have moved on from this notion of self sacrifice, and towards an expectation that the state is responsible socially, for care of the elderly. I don't have an issue with this- but we do need to make Son no. 1 or daughter no. 3 aware that in recompense for the state caring for their parents (however this may be structured)- that there is a unilateral percentage of their estate going to the exchequer on their death- no more sweetheart deals for inheriting farms or any other assets.

janmaree · 11-08-2011 2:31pm

Sorry to come in here so long after the discussion ended but I feel the need to make one observation about the Fair Deal Scheme and how it could impact on the later life of an adult child caregiving for a parent. Yes it does seem to usually fall to a particular child to do the caregiving, yes single and female, often for many years as medical advances prolong the lives of our elderly loved ones. Caregiving is an expensive business in many ways and the one providing the care generally ends up paying the most whether it's lost earnings, personal pension provision or just covering some of the day to day living expenses of the elderly parent. It all adds up, often even costing the caregiver a family and a future of their own. What if the caregiver lives with the elderly parent? Now, whether they like it or not, they're probably providing REAL 24/7 care at a REAL cost to themselves in terms of health, physical and mental well-being and all that goes with it. This can go on for years and years...................and if the elderly parent isn't lucky enough to go peacefully in their sleep, there will eventually be a requirement for nursing home care either due to their increasing needs or to the deterioration of the caregiver, or both. After a lot of years, there is a danger of seriously diminished funds which is where the Fair Deal Scheme comes in, thankfully.

However, should the caregivers, who have lived in the house for years and now very likely have health, strength and financial difficulties of their own after years of providing care for others, be rendered homeless themselves? Where is their care to come from or is it really going to be a case of "tough luck, nobody made you do it"? This scenario isn't make-believe, it's happening all the time and it's been happening forever. I fail to see any sweetheart deal in that.

11-08-2011 2:45pm

I lost my Mother last year, and next week have to attend an inquest into her death. I only wish I got the chance to look after my Mother. I would have cared for her for as long as was needed, and would have been glad and proud to do it for her.
I think if you have a good parent/s, then you its only right you would do everything and anything to make their last years safe, peaceful and as comfortable as possible. I feel a lot of people dont honour their elderly as much as they should.

enda1 · 11-08-2011 3:14pm

No not at all.
It is a waste of youth and a drain on the new family of the child. The child presumably has a family of their own and should focus their attention on providing for them.

Old people should have the good grace not to be a burden on the young, its selfish.

jdooley28 · 11-08-2011 3:16pm

I should have to anyway owe them too much already

Karona · 11-08-2011 3:44pm

We looked after my nana for 4 years when she broke her hip, before the doctor told her for her best interests we'd have to place her in home when she broke the 2nd hip.

Its such tough work trying to look after an elderly person. She was the type of woman who knew what she wanted and when she wanted it. Her mind was fully there only her legs wouldn't work.

Every weekend, I would take over and let my mam have a break. I was only 18 at the time and I did miss a hell of a lot of time out with my friends but family always come first and anyhow my Nana looked after me when i was little so it was my time to take care of her.

I would gladly do it for either my mam or dad.

kincsem · 11-08-2011 3:56pm

enda1 wrote: »

No not at all.
It is a waste of youth and a drain on the new family of the child. The child presumably has a family of their own and should focus their attention on providing for them.

Old people should have the good grace not to be a burden on the young, its selfish.

I don't know what to say.

The Internet Explorer · 11-08-2011 3:59pm

But what if your parent is Gay Byrne ? What if your parent is an ex TV presenter who is running for the presidency of your country ?

D1stant · 11-08-2011 4:34pm

enda1 wrote: »

No not at all.
It is a waste of youth and a drain on the new family of the child. The child presumably has a family of their own and should focus their attention on providing for them.

Old people should have the good grace not to be a burden on the young, its selfish.

I know at least one case where the old person took that very advice and killed themselves. Is that also selfish?
_________________________________

A happy medium between familly and state has to be worked out though because, we will not have the money to pay state pensions let alone for additional care

With my grandmother, the family shared (not equally but everyone chipped in and everyone got a break). This allowed her to die with dignity, around people she loved. How people (with other means) could put their parents in a folks home is beyond me.

Caraville · 11-08-2011 5:25pm

Oranage2 wrote: »

i don't care as long as its not me, one of my biggest fear is being stuck lookin after a parent

enda1 wrote: »

No not at all.
It is a waste of youth and a drain on the new family of the child. The child presumably has a family of their own and should focus their attention on providing for them.

Old people should have the good grace not to be a burden on the young, its selfish.

Aw, such lovely, lovely people around here. So pleasant.

norris_minor · 11-08-2011 5:32pm

Now that promiscuous 1st generation skobes are pumping bambinos out by the bucketload.. heck maybe 2nd generation already too ..

shouldn't the focus now be on parents looking after their children in their youth? and beyond...

Ah

futile. Like AWOL father / like son. This cesspool of humanity is now the very fabric of our aspiring chav society.

janmaree · 11-08-2011 6:03pm

Well, I don't know quite what to say either.

Except this, to those of you who have cared for a loved one, or wanted to, you have my respect and admiration. To the others, good luck when it's your turn to need someone's help - I hope it's there for you. Will you deserve it though?

looksee · 11-08-2011 6:27pm

I would like to think that my family would look out for me, but provided I was able, possibly with the help of paid carers, I would prefer to be independent. Ideally in sheltered housing, which is such an obvious way of living in a cost effective way, as against nursing homes or struggling with a family home, there should be much more of it here.

If I were totally incapacitated I would hope that my children would care for me if it were practicable, with the help of carers, or as a last resort, in a nursing home.

However I have seen situations where parents have been abandoned by their children, and in some instances it has been because the children had such bad memories of childhood that they had lost contact with the parents. In that case what goes around, comes around.

CavanCrew · 11-08-2011 6:45pm

Ive worked as a carer and I dont think families can do it alone..
Its usually one member of the family being the main carer.. and they end up burned out and with little life themselves.

Of course it depends on how able bodied the elder person is.
But if a family do decide to take on minding a parent I still think there should be help from the state.

The_Conductor · 11-08-2011 7:19pm

Ok- so if the state were to put a system in place- homecarers/homehelp/meals on wheels/community welfare nurses etc- would you see it as a duty of the state to pay for this- or should this come from the means of the family and more pertinently the person to whom the care/assistance is being offered?

Should children be expected to care for their parents in old age?

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