Liverpool FC Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread 11/12-Jan 2012 onwards

whatawaster · 20-02-2012 11:22pm

Of all our "dodgy" summer signings - Adam, Henderson, Downing - Henderson is the only one I'd consider buying again.

I'd give him a 6/10 this season, but I've no doubt he will improve, and at the very least be a good player for us.

Henderson's value may not come from being a great player for us, but rather being a very good player who stays with us for many years. The longer he stays and contributes the less expensive his transfer fee starts to look.

whatawaster · 20-02-2012 11:24pm

willmunny1990 wrote: »

Limited player IMO.

He has youth on his side but i can't see him becoming anything more than a useful squad player.

He's already a useful squad player, and would be for most teams.
It's unlikely he won't improve significantly. Midfielders rarely peak in their early twenties.

5starpool · 20-02-2012 11:27pm

He's better than Downing. Hardly a resounding endorsement :pac:

He's young and will hopefully improve to a standard where he won't look constantly out of place as he has done for a lot of the season so far.

copacetic · 20-02-2012 11:28pm

He is still mostly potential but is showing more and more for me. On Sunday he created the 5th goal by winning header on edge of the area then out running everyone to collect his own header out and run it into their half before putting in a well spotted if ballooned pass.

He is doing more of the one off quality items to go with the run all day average play he can get caught up in.

K-9 · 20-02-2012 11:31pm

Paully D wrote: »

I'm surprised to hear that he's been better in the centre of midfield, I've always thought he performed better for us on the right hand side of midfied (as did the majority of Sunderland fans) but in fairness I suppose Bruce, Capello and Dalglish know a slight bit more than myself and other Sunderland fans :pac:

I could definitely seen him learning a lot from Gerrard. There's no better player to learn from in that CM role to be honest. To put it into context though, at the same age as Henderson, Gerrard had played over 120 games for Liverpool in all competitions scoring 15 goals (from my quick calculations, could be slightly more or less) and he had played . Madness really, just proves how good Gerrard was/is.

That's a very high standard to match, wonder how Gerrard would have coped with a big money transfer at that age myself.

Can you see Henderson developing into a player good enough to play week in, week out for you based on his ability rather than say, the price that was paid for him?

EDIT - Just seen the last question I posed already answered by a few in previous posts.

I think he can. Could be a very good box to box midfielder, the obvious worry being the defensive side but Gerrard has managed okay!

Paully D · 20-02-2012 11:33pm

Oh, I'm not comparing Henderson and Gerrard lads, just I've read/heard a lot lately about how ideally Henderson would replace Gerrard, I was just pointing out how difficult a task that would be.

willmunny1990 · 20-02-2012 11:35pm

whatawaster wrote: »

He's already a useful squad player, and would be for most teams.
It's unlikely he won't improve significantly. Midfielders rarely peak in their early twenties.

I think he's abilities are limited and i cant see him changing much, he has youth on his side but i don't think he has much about him TBH.

I don't think he would be good enough for Chelsea, United, City, Spurs and i don't think he would be a type of player Wenger would sign.

He could improve but i don't think so.

djPSB · 20-02-2012 11:35pm

whatawaster wrote: »

Of all our "dodgy" summer signings - Adam, Henderson, Downing - Henderson is the only one I'd consider buying again.

I'd give him a 6/10 this season, but I've no doubt he will improve, and at the very least be a good player for us.

Henderson's value may not come from being a great player for us, but rather being a very good player who stays with us for many years. The longer he stays and contributes the less expensive his transfer fee starts to look.

I think Adam has fulfilled his value. That's as good as he is really, and I can't see him improving much beyond his current level in the next few years.

Chucky the tree · 20-02-2012 11:36pm

djPSB wrote: »

I don't think it's fair to compare him to Gerrard.

Different types of players.

Henderson will be a good signing for us over the next few years.

In fairness to Dalglish, he has steady the ship big time. Although none of his signings have been excellent, the players he has bought provide a good base for going forward.

When you look at the most successful teams in England over the last few years, they all had a backbone of British + Irish talent apart from maybe Rafa's CL team, but that team disintegrated fairly quickly.

I think Kenny wanted to put that base of players in place to build for the future. So over the next 5/6 years the team will be built around players like Gerrard, Downing, Carroll, Adam, Henderson, Kelly, Johnson, Sterling.

None of these lads will probably be around in 5/6 years.

djPSB · 20-02-2012 11:37pm

I beg everyone to ignore the tr*ll.

Please don't respond to the muck.

Paully D · 20-02-2012 11:43pm

I've been very surprised with Downing though. Thought he would fit absolutely perfectly into your side and would have said in August that he was going to be by far your best signing.

djPSB · 20-02-2012 11:45pm

Chucky the tree wrote: »

None of these lads will probably be around in 5/6 years.

It's hard to know how long Gerrard will go on for. Would love to see him go on as long as Giggs and Scholes have, although he has had his fair share of injuries.

Adam is only 26. I can see him been with us until we decide to move him on and add more quality to the squad.

Johnson will be there until Kelly overtakes him.

Also have Robinson and Flanagan coming through.

daithijjj · 20-02-2012 11:49pm

5starpool wrote: »

He's better than Downing. Hardly a resounding endorsement :pac:

He's young and will hopefully improve to a standard where he won't look constantly out of place as he has done for a lot of the season so far.

Was chatting about him with a few of the lads, (we are oul fella's and two of them support United). The topic came up about players who went for similar fee's but find themselves at Chelsea and United. In conclusion, we all decided that Henderson gives as much if not more than Mikel and Anderson despite being 2 years younger. If i was to pick 1 of those 3 id take Henderson every time. Not saying that wont change but right now, from what ive seen of all 3 up to now, i expect Henderson to be a better player in 2 years than those two are right now.

djPSB · 20-02-2012 11:49pm

Paully D wrote: »

I've been very surprised with Downing though. Thought he would fit absolutely perfectly into your side and would have said in August that he was going to be by far your best signing.

He has been shocking poor.

He has showed a few glimpses of what he can do over the past few weeks.

He seems to play alot better in a 4-4-2 formation, which is a more straightforward rigid formation.

He seems to lack the creativity to play in a 4-2-3-1 and looks very uncomfortable when played in that system.

I think we will see alot more from last summers signings during next season when the spotlight will be on the players we bring in during the next transfer window. It will ease the pressure a bit.

whatawaster · 20-02-2012 11:50pm

djPSB wrote: »

I think Adam has fulfilled his value. That's as good as he is really, and I can't see him improving much beyond his current level in the next few years.

Adam irks me for some reason that goes beyond his footballing ability, I must admit. While he has put in some good performances for us this season, for me there is something very ugly about him - he is selfish when he has the ball and extremely reckless without it (can't believe he hasn't more red cards this season). His set-pieces have been appalling, his passing is hit and miss.

The good news is that he was relatively cheap, but I have no idea what he brings to us. (Apart from a deceptively high number of assists). His one pass/free-kick every 180 minutes or so doesn't cut it for me.

I see potential with Henderson. Adam is in the Downing pile as far as I'm concerned. I'd be much happier with Shelvey getting gametime ahead of him.

Morzadec · 20-02-2012 11:56pm

Paully D wrote: »

I'm surprised to hear that he's been better in the centre of midfield, I've always thought he performed better for us on the right hand side of midfied (as did the majority of Sunderland fans) but in fairness I suppose Bruce, Capello and Dalglish know a slight bit more than myself and other Sunderland fans :pac:

I could definitely seen him learning a lot from Gerrard. There's no better player to learn from in that CM role to be honest. To put it into context though, at the same age as Henderson, Gerrard had played over 120 games for Liverpool in all competitions scoring 15 goals (from my quick calculations, could be slightly more or less) and he had played . Madness really, just proves how good Gerrard was/is.

Can you see Henderson developing into a player good enough to play week in, week out for you based on his ability rather than say, the price that was paid for him?

EDIT - Just seen the last question I posed already answered by a few in previous posts.

If our aim is to get back into the top 4 and stay there, then that'll mean a of a lot of extra matches. Very few top teams have a set starting XI, so I would see Henderson's future as a squad player - I don't mean backup I mean squad player, like rotated. You can't go in with 2/3 starting mids and hope for mediocre/youth players to do the filling in.

So yes I would reckon Henderson has a future at the club, but I don't know if he will ever be a 'star' in the team. That said if he improves as much between now and 24/25 as Lucas has I may change my tune!

What do I think of Henderson so far? Well, I'll be honest I probably would've preferred if we had hung on to Meireles given the fees involved. At first I thought he was very very poor and didn't see much in him. But he's progressed, and like many have said he is far better in the CM role than out wide. He's got great work rate and stamina, a good one touch, and has shown the odd glimpse of impressive vision and good through balls. I expect this to improve with experience.

I feel there's a lot of areas he can improve on though:

Mentally: It's been mentioned here before, but Henderson has a tendency to go hiding when he's not having a good game. He needs to improve his 'moral courage' as Giles would term it - if things aren't going his way he'd rather not make more mistakes and thus appears anonymous or takes the easy option. This is something Lucas was guilty of at the same age and has improved immensely at the last few years.

Physically: This probably comes under mentally too in some ways. I feel he is still a bit weak in the tackle, and this is a mixture of a lack of bravery and a physical weakness also. He might fill out a bit and hopefully become a greater force off the ball. He covers a lot of ground but I don't think he's the best at winning 50/50s or making a strong clean tackle. Nowhere near the league of Lucas for example (although I know they're different players).

Technically: Has a decent cross, hopefully he can improve further on this. I'm not sure how good his shooting is - I don't know if he offers much of a shot from range, which is not essential but is a nice bonus to have from your centre-mid. He's only got one goal in 26. It's not a terrible stat, no one has been banging them in for us this year, but ultimately as a CM usually playing in a slightly more advanced role and with the odd appearance out wide, you would be expecting more goals in the future if he is to become a top midfielder.

Positionally/tactically: I expect Henderson to improve here as I suppose this is arguably where you improve most with top level experience. Going back to the goals point, I would like to see him getting into the box more and getting on the end of things ala Gerrard/Lampard in their prime. Not sure if it's tactical instructions that see him hang back, or that he's hiding slightly or just doesn't see the opportunities, but centre-mids these days score goals and often get into the box to do so. I don't see Henderson doing this all that often.

If he can improve on all these things he'll be a top player. I'm not trying to be harsh, it's true he's only 21 and we only have to look at Lucas at 21 to see how much you can improve in the next 3 years.

Ultimately my prediction is that he won't become World Class; he'll be a pretty important player for us and will be in the England set up but not a regular starter in which I imagine Wilshere will be the standout young English midfielder of his generation

djPSB · 20-02-2012 11:58pm

whatawaster wrote: »

Adam irks me for some reason that goes beyond his footballing ability, I must admit. While he has put in some good performances for us this season, for me there is something very ugly about him - he is selfish when he has the ball and extremely reckless without it (can't believe he hasn't more red cards this season). His set-pieces have been appalling, his passing is hit and miss.

The good news is that he was relatively cheap, but I have no idea what he brings to us. (Apart from a deceptively high number of assists). His one pass/free-kick every 180 minutes or so doesn't cut it for me.

I see potential with Henderson. Adam is in the Downing pile as far as I'm concerned. I'd be much happier with Shelvey getting gametime ahead of him.

I wouldn't be too harsh on Adam because he was bought for £8m and I think he is performing at about that level. He's a good back up option, but unfortunately due to injuries he has played more than I would have liked. I wouldn't compare him to Downing though, that's a bit harsh. Downing came for a big fee from Villa and still hasn't a goal or an assist in the league. Adam came for a relatively small fee, and it isn't too long ago since he was playing championship football.

When you put him in the centre with Lucas he can be solid enough, but when you pair him with Spearing or Henderson it's a disaster.

We started some games with Spearing and Adam in midfield, which isn't anywhere near good enough for a team chasing top 4.

Kess73 · 20-02-2012 11:58pm

djPSB wrote: »

I don't think it's fair to compare him to Gerrard.

Different types of players.

Henderson will be a good signing for us over the next few years.

In fairness to Dalglish, he has steady the ship big time. Although none of his signings have been excellent, the players he has bought provide a good base for going forward.

When you look at the most successful teams in England over the last few years, they all had a backbone of British + Irish talent apart from maybe Rafa's CL team, but that team disintegrated fairly quickly.

I think Kenny wanted to put that base of players in place to build for the future. So over the next 5/6 years the team will be built around players like Gerrard, Downing, Carroll, Adam, Henderson, Kelly, Johnson, Sterling.

Gerrard will be retired well before then.

Downing turns 28 in July, given his form so far along with his age, it is a bit optimistic to think a team will be bit partially around him for the next 5 or 6 years.

Glen Johnson also turns 28 this July so 5 or 6 years is probably optimitoc there as well.

Adam turns 27 late this year so again he is another who has age against him in terms of being one a team can be built around for the next 5 or 6 years, plus he is not a good enough player to be building around anyway.

Of the four young players mentioned, Kelly is the only one that has shown enough to date to suggest that he will still be at Liverpool over the next 5 or 6 years. Carroll and Henderson need to improve to a very large degree over the next 12 to 18 months (assuming they both last at the club that long) to have a chance of being key team members.

Sterling is just too young and way too raw to even guess about now. We have had way too many young attacking players over the past ten or so years that were "defo" going to make it for me to think that one will be a big part of the first team when he does not even have 1 game to his name yet.

As for the most successful teams in recent years all having a backbone of british players. I guess if we look at the last 10 years, maybe slightly longer, the four most successful English teams in terms of sliverware have been United, Chelsea, Liverpool and Arsenal.

United are the only one that really did well with british players.

Chelsea in the Roman years have generally had more foreign than british on the pitch, same goes for Arsenal and Ourselves.

Way too much emphasis is put on the need for having a lot of british players in the team, and I blame the british media for it's years and years of pumping out rubbish about british bulldogs, never say die, honest brit players and other such cliches. If british players were so good, there would be much more interest in them from the big clubs around Europe. The odd british player attracts attention abroad, but they are the exceptioon to the rule.

Nationality does not come into it for me, the right players are just that regardless of where their passport says they are from.

djPSB · 21-02-2012 12:17am

Kess73 wrote: »

Gerrard will be retired well before then.

Downing turns 28 in July, given his form so far along with his age, it is a bit optimistic to think a team will be bit partially around him for the next 5 or 6 years.

Glen Johnson also turns 28 this July so 5 or 6 years is probably optimitoc there as well.

Adam turns 27 late this year so again he is another who has age against him in terms of being one a team can be built around for the next 5 or 6 years, plus he is not a good enough player to be building around anyway.

Of the four young players mentioned, Kelly is the only one that has shown enough to date to suggest that he will still be at Liverpool over the next 5 or 6 years. Carroll and Henderson need to improve to a very large degree over the next 12 to 18 months (assuming they both last at the club that long) to have a chance of being key team members.

Sterling is just too young and way too raw to even guess about now. We have had way too many young attacking players over the past ten or so years that were "defo" going to make it for me to think that one will be a big part of the first team when he does not even have 1 game to his name yet.

As for the most successful teams in recent years all having a backbone of british players. I guess if we look at the last 10 years, maybe slightly longer, the four most successful English teams in terms of sliverware have been United, Chelsea, Liverpool and Arsenal.

United are the only one that really did well with british players.

Chelsea in the Roman years have generally had more foreign than british on the pitch, same goes for Arsenal and Ourselves.

Way too much emphasis is put on the need for having a lot of british players in the team, and I blame the british media for it's years and years of pumping out rubbish about british bulldogs, never say die, honest brit players and other such cliches. If british players were so good, there would be much more interest in them from the big clubs around Europe. The odd british player attracts attention abroad, but they are the exceptioon to the rule.

Nationality does not come into it for me, the right players are just that regardless of where their passport says they are from.

When you consider the team Rafa built:

Reina

Arbeloa

Carragher---Agger

Aurelio

Kuyt

Alonso----Mascherano--Riera

Gerrard

Torres

I would say the main players in that team were Alonso, Mascherano, Gerrard, Carragher, Torres and Reina. Three of these left for others clubs. Out of the three that remain, two are English. We are still in a period of transition after these players leaving and still trying to replace them.

I am not saying that we should have an all British + Irish team but it is good to have a core of 7/8 players that you can rely on to stick with the club for a large part of their career.

I would say Mourinho's Chelsea team was heavily built around Terry and Lampard.

And the prime example for me is the Mancs. When you consider the players that have been key to their success over the past 7/8 years, the vast majority of them have been English and Irish. i.e Rooney, Ferdinand, Neville, Keane, Beckham, Giggs, Scholes etc. I know players like Ronaldo also had a major influence, but again he didn't wait around too long.

You suggested the other day that we should build a team around players like Suarez, which I think would be rather naive as I reckon the odds of him being a Liverpool player in 3/4 years time are very slim. Yes players like him are a major addition to the team, but it is important to keep a focus on players that are likely to stick with the club during the prime of their careers.

djPSB · 21-02-2012 12:49am

YouTookMyName · 21-02-2012 1:02am

K-9 · 21-02-2012 1:19am

at the Gif, similar to Carroll and Downing, the big man lifting him up like a little pygmie!

3 players who've had their various levels of criticism and media pressure, would love to see the 3 of them clicking!

YouTookMyName · 21-02-2012 1:50am

Yakult · 21-02-2012 2:22am

I bet Kenny got very very excited by that hug!

Kirby · 21-02-2012 2:29am

He spends way too much time on his arse for such a big man. Way too much.

Having said that he played well in that game albeit against weak opposition. I hope he continues to start for the rest of the season.

mormank · 21-02-2012 4:39am

Kess73 wrote: »

Gerrard will be retired well before then.

Downing turns 28 in July, given his form so far along with his age, it is a bit optimistic to think a team will be bit partially around him for the next 5 or 6 years.

Glen Johnson also turns 28 this July so 5 or 6 years is probably optimitoc there as well.

Adam turns 27 late this year so again he is another who has age against him in terms of being one a team can be built around for the next 5 or 6 years, plus he is not a good enough player to be building around anyway.

Of the four young players mentioned, Kelly is the only one that has shown enough to date to suggest that he will still be at Liverpool over the next 5 or 6 years. Carroll and Henderson need to improve to a very large degree over the next 12 to 18 months (assuming they both last at the club that long) to have a chance of being key team members.

Sterling is just too young and way too raw to even guess about now. We have had way too many young attacking players over the past ten or so years that were "defo" going to make it for me to think that one will be a big part of the first team when he does not even have 1 game to his name yet.

As for the most successful teams in recent years all having a backbone of british players. I guess if we look at the last 10 years, maybe slightly longer, the four most successful English teams in terms of sliverware have been United, Chelsea, Liverpool and Arsenal.

United are the only one that really did well with british players.

Chelsea in the Roman years have generally had more foreign than british on the pitch, same goes for Arsenal and Ourselves.

Way too much emphasis is put on the need for having a lot of british players in the team, and I blame the british media for it's years and years of pumping out rubbish about british bulldogs, never say die, honest brit players and other such cliches. If british players were so good, there would be much more interest in them from the big clubs around Europe. The odd british player attracts attention abroad, but they are the exceptioon to the rule.

Nationality does not come into it for me, the right players are just that regardless of where their passport says they are from.

Forgive me but I'm gonna have to double check all those ages before I take it as gospel. :P

opr · 21-02-2012 12:20pm

Reserves are taking on Everton in a 2pm kick off today.

http://www.liverpoolfc.tv/news/latest-news/1-30pm-lfc-res-v-everton-live

Opr

Kess73 · 21-02-2012 1:54pm

mormank wrote: »

Forgive me but I'm gonna have to double check all those ages before I take it as gospel. :P

Oh I have learned from past mistakes. Made a point of checking each one before posting.

danniemcq · 21-02-2012 1:58pm

Kess73 wrote: »

Oh I have learned from past mistakes. Made a point of checking each one before posting.

must change all them ages back after i changed them all on wikipedia earlier....

Kess73 · 21-02-2012 2:05pm

djPSB wrote: »

When you consider the team Rafa built:
Reina

Arbeloa
Carragher---Agger
Aurelio

Kuyt
Alonso----Mascherano--Riera
Gerrard
Torres

I would say the main players in that team were Alonso, Mascherano, Gerrard, Carragher, Torres and Reina. Three of these left for others clubs. Out of the three that remain, two are English. We are still in a period of transition after these players leaving and still trying to replace them.

I am not saying that we should have an all British + Irish team but it is good to have a core of 7/8 players that you can rely on to stick with the club for a large part of their career.

I would say Mourinho's Chelsea team was heavily built around Terry and Lampard.

And the prime example for me is the Mancs. When you consider the players that have been key to their success over the past 7/8 years, the vast majority of them have been English and Irish. i.e Rooney, Ferdinand, Neville, Keane, Beckham, Giggs, Scholes etc. I know players like Ronaldo also had a major influence, but again he didn't wait around too long.

You suggested the other day that we should build a team around players like Suarez, which I think would be rather naive as I reckon the odds of him being a Liverpool player in 3/4 years time are very slim. Yes players like him are a major addition to the team, but it is important to keep a focus on players that are likely to stick with the club during the prime of their careers.

Think what I was saying wasthat I would sooner build a team or style of play around Suarez than Carroll. I still believe that better joy would be gotten from building around a Suarez type player as it would mean the team would have a number of players who are all good on the ball and capable of playing in a number of styles, whereas building around Carroll would require the team becoming as one dimensional as Newcastle were when they built around him.

Even if Suarez did leave, having a team that was built around a pretty fluid but pressing style would be easier to fit quality teams into that a team that was pretty one dimensional in style and that required focusing on more basic football.

Newcastle over the past two seasons are the obvious team to look at in terms of what a team built around Carroll looks like compared to a team that is not built around him.

Also you mention having a core of 7 or 8 british players that will stick around for most of their career. Besides local lads, Liverpool does not have a good track record over the past 15 to 20 of the british players it bought sticking around. If anything they have shown that they are just as likely, maybe even more likely, to either be moved on and/or fail on the pitch.

It is lovely in theory to have a mostly British team but stupid prices and generally not so great ability makes this a no no idea. Man United are the exception to this rule imho.

Liverpool FC Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread 11/12-Jan 2012 onwards

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