Leinster Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread VI: End of the MOC [Revenge of the STH]

Neil3030 · 24-10-2015 1:35pm

Heads up to anyone who may have a block of tickets to the Scarlets game they foresee not getting used - i'll be bringing a few work colleagues over for the weekend of the 6th and will be looking to buy a block of ~8 tickets in a covered part of the stadium.

Long shot, I know, but I'd much rather remunerate a boards user if the opportunity presents.

Interested Observer · 25-10-2015 8:32pm

What do we think the first choice centre pairing will be this season? Players available would be Te'o, Reid, Madigan and Fitz. I don't think anyone outside of that has a realistic shot. I wouldn't mind having a look at Fitz and Te'o together, I think Te'o is probably nailed on to start anyway. Reid looks way too soft in contact at times to be a viable option against guys like Bastareaud or Burgess in the Euro Cup. Madigan, who knows really. Maybe having Sexton at 10 will help him as opposed to Gopperth, it worked alright at the tail end of Schmidt's Leinster regime. If we went with Fitz and Te'o it would also mean having our best players on the pitch as opposed to Fitz fighting it out for a wing spot. Can have Nacewa on one wing and Ringrose McFadden or Kearney on the other.

Clegg · 25-10-2015 9:19pm

I think we should keep Fitz on the wing. Last season there was an argument to have him in the centre because we gave our wings feck all decent attacking ball to use. Fitz is the most dangerous runner we have so putting him at 13 made sense as he got more ball. With a new coach and different set of tactics I think we look a lot more willing to play it wide with actual intent to make yards rather then shovel crap ball side to side because we'd run out of ideas. I'd have Madigan and Te'o as our centre partnership. Reid is the better passer but is a non entity in defence.

On the subject of back three places I'd be really interested to see what happens. Fitz and Rob Kearney are guaranteed places if fit. So we've Nacewa, Mc Fadden, Kirchner and Dave Kearney fighting for one place. I'd honestly go for Isa. He's not the player he was at his peak with us, but for intelligence, skill and calmness he's by far the best of the bunch. I'm not so sure we can ignore Ringrose either. He's been our best back since the start of the season.

irishbucsfan · 25-10-2015 9:31pm

I think we have to trust in our coaching to improve what Reid can bring because he's the best option at 12 under every other parameter.

I don't even really want to consider Madigan there, although I'm not sure where I do want to consider Madigan. Maybe he will show more at 12 this season but it'd need to be a big improvement to put him ahead of Reid imo. Neither Fitzgerald or Madigan offer enough going forward at 12 as far as I'm concerned. Fitzgerald at least has that defensive ability but I'd be much keener to see them bring that out in Reid.

Reid actually contributes in defense when it comes to the breakdown, he's quite industrious there. He just seems to offer up a lot of ground when he's defending in the line, much like McFadden did before the experiment of using him at 12 was ended. McQuilkin is going to be the best person possible to fix that however, if there's any coach in Ireland who can, it's McQuilkin (he did play that position for Ireland after all).

Maybe Te'o at 12 inside Fitzgerald is something else we might see at some point. Or even Te'o inside the messiah. If Te'o does leave at the end of the season then we might need to blood the messiah early, and we wont have any reason not to move Te'o around the backline a bit.

.ak · 26-10-2015 1:34am

Interested Observer wrote: »

What do we think the first choice centre pairing will be this season? Players available would be Te'o, Reid, Madigan and Fitz. I don't think anyone outside of that has a realistic shot. I wouldn't mind having a look at Fitz and Te'o together, I think Te'o is probably nailed on to start anyway. Reid looks way too soft in contact at times to be a viable option against guys like Bastareaud or Burgess in the Euro Cup. Madigan, who knows really. Maybe having Sexton at 10 will help him as opposed to Gopperth, it worked alright at the tail end of Schmidt's Leinster regime. If we went with Fitz and Te'o it would also mean having our best players on the pitch as opposed to Fitz fighting it out for a wing spot. Can have Nacewa on one wing and Ringrose McFadden or Kearney on the other.

.ak wrote: »

1st choice for me right now is:

Kearney
Nacewa
Teo
Reid
Fitzgerald
Sexton
Reddan
Heaslip
SOB
Ruddock
McCarthy
Toner
Ross
Strauss
McGrath

Cronin
Healy
Moore
Denton?
Murphy
McGrath or Boss
Madigan
McFadden or kirchner or Dave Kearney

That's my pick. Wouldn't really want to see Madigan ahead of Reid just for his kicking. Sexton's kicking is good enough. I wouldn't say Madigan at 12 worked at the tail end of schmidts last season either. Infact, the consensus was quite the opposite.

molloyjh · 26-10-2015 3:21am

For me there has got to be questions around Madigans future at Leinster unless he can realise his potential properly this season. He's got very real and serious issues at 10 that simply haven't been worked through. And he just isn't a 12. He has so much raw and natural talent but at some point it needs to translate. He might do better heading off somewhere else to get regular starts.

As for the centre I'd be very hopeful of keeping Te'o. I've heard talk of him having settled well so if that is true and we get a full squad back and playing well he should have loads of incentive. And I would like to see Reid being trusted in the first couple of CC games. Put Luke on one wing and Isa on the other. If it works then great. If not then I'd consider moving Luke to 12 or maybe to 13 with Te'o stepping inside. He could do some real damage up the middle if Te'o can get a few offloads in contact to him.

stephen_n · 26-10-2015 4:47am

irishbucsfan wrote: »

I think we have to trust in our coaching to improve what Reid can bring because he's the best option at 12 under every other parameter.

I don't even really want to consider Madigan there, although I'm not sure where I do want to consider Madigan. Maybe he will show more at 12 this season but it'd need to be a big improvement to put him ahead of Reid imo. Neither Fitzgerald or Madigan offer enough going forward at 12 as far as I'm concerned. Fitzgerald at least has that defensive ability but I'd be much keener to see them bring that out in Reid.

Reid actually contributes in defense when it comes to the breakdown, he's quite industrious there. He just seems to offer up a lot of ground when he's defending in the line, much like McFadden did before the experiment of using him at 12 was ended. McQuilkin is going to be the best person possible to fix that however, if there's any coach in Ireland who can, it's McQuilkin (he did play that position for Ireland after all).

Maybe Te'o at 12 inside Fitzgerald is something else we might see at some point. Or even Te'o inside the messiah. If Te'o does leave at the end of the season then we might need to blood the messiah early, and we wont have any reason not to move Te'o around the backline a bit.

I'd be interested to see T'eo play at 12 a few times, especially with Luke or Ringrose coming on to his offloads. Still think Reid is the long term option though, he has intelligence and guile in attack, if he can match that in defense, he will be a bloody good 12, maybe not a D'Arcy but easily European standard.

shuffol · 26-10-2015 5:54am

Reid has to be given an opportunity this season. See how he does with a full team around him and whether he kicks on and irons out the little things he needs to work on. I'm really interested in seeing how him and Sexton might link up.

irishbucsfan · 28-10-2015 6:41am

Sexton is back training and likely will play before the first Champions Cup game. That's a big, big boost to our chances.

Clegg · 28-10-2015 8:24am

I'm very interested in seeing Sexton playing with Te'o. Sexton is excellent at putting runners into space. We could do some real damage to teams if we get Te'o running into his passes.

vienne86 · 28-10-2015 8:49am

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Sexton is back training and likely will play before the first Champions Cup game. That's a big, big boost to our chances.

Excellent news. Really looking forward to seeing how he runs the backline.

.ak · 28-10-2015 8:56am

Presume he'll play the Scarlets game then?

vienne86 · 28-10-2015 8:58am

.ak wrote: »

Presume he'll play the Scarlets game then?

I would hope Leo will have a full deck to pick from for that game.

molloyjh · 28-10-2015 9:15am

vienne86 wrote: »

I would hope Leo will have a full deck to pick from for that game.

Yeah, home game the week before the start of the Champions Cup is the perfect game to get everyone back out there. We'll probably see a few guys integrated back in for the trip to Treviso this week like Cronin and Redser.

whatawaster · 28-10-2015 10:02am

Would love to see:

--McGrath/Healy

Cronin

Moore---

Toner

McCarthy

---Ruddock----Heaslip

O'Brien

McGrath

Sexton

Fitzgerald

T'eo

Nacewa

Ringrose

Kearney

For me, Ringrose is playing well, looking one of the more dangerous of our attacking players - so I don't see why he should be dropped. It's not as if our backline is that full of pace either. He is almost 21. If, as people say, he is the best backs prospect Leinster have produced since Fitzgerald, then imo it would be a waste having him playing A rugby for the next couple of years. If he is that good, he could force his way into the 6 nations squad.

I think in general, we don't blood players early enough.

.ak · 28-10-2015 10:31am

whatawaster wrote: »

Would love to see:

--McGrath/Healy
Cronin
Moore---
Toner
McCarthy

---Ruddock----Heaslip
O'Brien
McGrath
Sexton
Fitzgerald
T'eo

Nacewa
Ringrose
Kearney

For me, Ringrose is playing well, looking one of the more dangerous of our attacking players - so I don't see why he should be dropped. It's not as if our backline is that full of pace either. He is almost 21. If, as people say, he is the best backs prospect Leinster have produced since Fitzgerald, then imo it would be a waste having him playing A rugby for the next couple of years. If he is that good, he could force his way into the 6 nations squad.

I think in general, we don't blood players early enough.

I think it's slightly ironic that you mention Fitzgerald and "we don't blood players early enough" in the same post. :pac:

I think Ringrose will be a fine player, but hopefully 2 or 3 years down the line. He's done alright against okay opposition, I don't think rushing him into the first XV will do him good. He does need to acclimatise to the bigger contact, and rushing a player in at this level can be a step backwards. We need to be patient with our players. We actually have form in bringing multiple "messiahs" from the u20s into the seniors to fill in gaps and they end up taking a knock in confidence and never kick on. In my opinion we should be using our A team more for development, and the fringe AIL players should be used as gap fillers for the senior team. I think we've got it backwards a few times.

In fact, I'd counter your last statement and say in general we tend to rush to blood new players too soon. The fans certainly do anyway.

whatawaster · 28-10-2015 10:51am

.ak wrote: »

I think it's slightly ironic that you mention Fitzgerald and "we don't blood players early enough" in the same post. :pac:

I think Ringrose will be a fine player, but hopefully 2 or 3 years down the line. He's done alright against okay opposition, I don't think rushing him into the first XV will do him good. He does need to acclimatise to the bigger contact, and rushing a player in at this level can be a step backwards. We need to be patient with our players. We actually have form in bringing multiple "messiahs" from the u20s into the seniors to fill in gaps and they end up taking a knock in confidence and never kick on. In my opinion we should be using our A team more for development, and the fringe AIL players should be used as gap fillers for the senior team. I think we've got it backwards a few times.

In fact, I'd counter your last statement and say in general we tend to rush to blood new players too soon. The fans certainly do anyway.

Do we really think we blood players too early?

Look at England debuts - George Ford 20, Anthony Watson 20, Jack Nowell 21, Owen Farrell 20, Billy Vunipola 20, Joe Launchbury 21

Wales - George North 18, Alex Cuthbert 21, Tyler Morgan 19, James Hook 21, Jamie Roberts 21, Dan Biggar 19, Falatau 20, Warburton 21, Lydiate 21

Ringrose will be 21 in a couple of months. At the very least he needs to be playing first team, top level rugby imo. If that's not happening at Leinster then it is stunting his development, when many of his peers are playing ECC/Super Rugby/International Rugby.

Some of those are exceptional players, but neither Wales or England produce a much higher standard of player than we do. It seems like our players are only being developed into internationals a year or two later than their English or Welsh counterparts.

Clearlier · 28-10-2015 12:12pm

.ak wrote: »

I think it's slightly ironic that you mention Fitzgerald and "we don't blood players early enough" in the same post. :pac:

A salient point but (and this is impossible to prove one way or another) I wonder if part of his injury troubles are due to playing professional rugby before he was fully physically ready. That would be my chief concern with regard to Ringrose playing a lot this season. I hope that he gets games but is used sparingly.

I won't be surprised to see him play in 2017 6 nations and he has already has some involvement with the Irish squad. I wonder if Joe hasn't already been looking to the future and that Ringrose's incipient talent is the reason that Henshaw has been playing 12 rather than 13 for Ireland.

Interested Observer · 28-10-2015 12:16pm

.ak wrote: »

I think it's slightly ironic that you mention Fitzgerald and "we don't blood players early enough" in the same post. :pac:

I think Ringrose will be a fine player, but hopefully 2 or 3 years down the line. He's done alright against okay opposition, I don't think rushing him into the first XV will do him good. He does need to acclimatise to the bigger contact, and rushing a player in at this level can be a step backwards. We need to be patient with our players. We actually have form in bringing multiple "messiahs" from the u20s into the seniors to fill in gaps and they end up taking a knock in confidence and never kick on. In my opinion we should be using our A team more for development, and the fringe AIL players should be used as gap fillers for the senior team. I think we've got it backwards a few times.

In fact, I'd counter your last statement and say in general we tend to rush to blood new players too soon. The fans certainly do anyway.

You're just so incredibly conservative. I can't get my head around it.

thomond2006 · 28-10-2015 12:30pm

2 or 3 years down the line for Ringrose .ak?! Maybe as a full international starter but I'd like to think he would have graduated from the dirttrackers by next season and be an option for the first choice matchday 23.

Interested Observer · 28-10-2015 12:33pm

thomond2006 wrote: »

2 or 3 years down the line for Ringrose .ak?! Maybe as a full international starter but I'd like to think he would have graduated from the dirttrackers by next season and be an option for the first choice matchday 23.

Nah we should stick him back in the oven and play Darragh Fanning for the next couple of seasons instead.

sydthebeat · 28-10-2015 12:49pm

savea was playing club rugby at 20
james o connor made his super rugby debut at 17
Akira Ioane playing consistently with the blues last year at 20, one of their best players.

Next season should be Ringrose' breakthrough season with consistent rugby, this year he should be getting bench chances frequently.

molloyjh · 28-10-2015 1:11pm

sydthebeat wrote: »

Next season should be Ringrose' breakthrough season with consistent rugby, this year he should be getting bench chances frequently.

This. He will be involved regularly this season though too I think. The internationals will be away during the 6 Nations and resting for chunks of time as well. Ringrose will be involved a lot through that. And deserves to be. The guy looks the real deal at the moment.

The Lost Sheep · 28-10-2015 1:25pm

sydthebeat wrote: »

savea was playing club rugby at 20
james o connor made his super rugby debut at 17
Akira Ioane playing consistently with the blues last year at 20, one of their best players.

Next season should be Ringrose' breakthrough season with consistent rugby, this year he should be getting bench chances frequently.

The Australians relationship between players when in school etc is different to ours that's why the Australians, English, Welsh will have payers making pro debuts at 17 and we wont

UnknownEntity · 28-10-2015 1:27pm

It's up on Leinster's Facebook page now that the RWC players are back in training.

RichieRich89 · 28-10-2015 2:19pm

.ak wrote: »

I think it's slightly ironic that you mention Fitzgerald and "we don't blood players early enough" in the same post. :pac:

I think Ringrose will be a fine player, but hopefully 2 or 3 years down the line. He's done alright against okay opposition, I don't think rushing him into the first XV will do him good. He does need to acclimatise to the bigger contact, and rushing a player in at this level can be a step backwards. We need to be patient with our players. We actually have form in bringing multiple "messiahs" from the u20s into the seniors to fill in gaps and they end up taking a knock in confidence and never kick on. In my opinion we should be using our A team more for development, and the fringe AIL players should be used as gap fillers for the senior team. I think we've got it backwards a few times.

In fact, I'd counter your last statement and say in general we tend to rush to blood new players too soon. The fans certainly do anyway.

There is zero evidence that the likes of Fitzgerald, Conway and Macken would be better players now if they had been introduced more gradually. Ringrose looks ready for European Cup rugby in my opinion

Zzippy · 28-10-2015 2:49pm

RichieRich89 wrote: »

There is zero evidence that the likes of Fitzgerald, Conway and Macken would be better players now if they had been introduced more gradually. Ringrose looks ready for European Cup rugby in my opinion

How long has Ringrose spent in the academy? There is an argument that bringing in players too early can be detrimental in terms of their strength and conditioning. Tiernan O'Halloran has been quoted as saying going straight to a pro contract and skipping the academy was probably the reason he spent 2 or 3 seasons mostly injured. He lost out on the initial gradual strengthening and adding mass that the other guys had, and as a result his body wasn't really ready for the rigours of regular senior rugby. I wouldn't be surprised if that was a factor in Fitz's long term injuries too.
No reason not to bring in Ringrose now but maybe his gametime needs to be managed with a lighter workload than senior players...

Dravokivich · 28-10-2015 2:57pm

Zzippy wrote: »

How long has Ringrose spent in the academy? There is an argument that bringing in players too early can be detrimental in terms of their strength and conditioning. Tiernan O'Halloran has been quoted as saying going straight to a pro contract and skipping the academy was probably the reason he spent 2 or 3 seasons mostly injured. He lost out on the initial gradual strengthening and adding mass that the other guys had, and as a result his body wasn't really ready for the rigours of regular senior rugby. I wouldn't be surprised if that was a factor in Fitz's long term injuries too.
No reason not to bring in Ringrose now but maybe his gametime needs to be managed with a lighter workload than senior players...

I believe he's in his second year?

stephen_n · 28-10-2015 3:21pm

I'd imagine the coaching staff have a very good idea of where Ringrose is physically, which is why he's on the wing and not in the centre. I could see him getting plenty of exposure at Pro 12 this year but he shouldn't be in the European squads yet. So far he seems to have handled the step up very well, particularly his defensive work. Hopefully he gets a few starts in the centre in A games too, to bring on his development.

RichieRich89 · 28-10-2015 3:27pm

stephen_n wrote: »

I'd imagine the coaching staff have a very good idea of where Ringrose is physically, which is why he's on the wing and not in the centre. I could see him getting plenty of exposure at Pro 12 this year but he shouldn't be in the European squads yet. So far he seems to have handled the step up very well, particularly his defensive work. Hopefully he gets a few starts in the centre in A games too, to bring on his development.

There might be something in that but I think Ringrose has looked more physically capable than Reid, say

Leinster Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread VI: End of the MOC [Revenge of the STH]

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