DART Underground planning due to lapse, but lots of Airport Luas talk?

BoatMad · 10-07-2015 12:33pm

cgcsb wrote: »

Well we have 2 months until a decision on DARTu. Lets just keep our fingers crossed. Also remember there are competing interests. Galway(pop. 75,000) wants a €700,000 ring road instead of a much cheaper improved bus network.

We're spending 700,000 on a motorway between Tuam and Gort.

There will be demands for €1.5bn for the M20, M40 and Dunkettle interchange projects.

Let's scotch the idea, that there is or should be any connection between motorway investment and rail investment.

Road transport is carrying 95% of all journeys, it's a necessary feature of our lives.
Rail transport is a minoroty activity arguably outside a few Luas lines , is not necessary for the functioning of our state.

In reality Dublin could be handled by a series of Luas lines and the closure of IE.

In practice , it's just the public sector politics that keeps IE in existence

That's the sorry truth

BoatMad · 10-07-2015 12:35pm

cgcsb wrote: »

Well we have 2 months until a decision on DARTu. Lets just keep our fingers crossed. Also remember there are competing interests. Galway(pop. 75,000) wants a €700,000 ring road instead of a much cheaper improved bus network.

We're spending 700,000 on a motorway between Tuam and Gort.

There will be demands for €1.5bn for the M20, M40 and Dunkettle interchange projects.

Funny , how the Phoenix park tunnel is back in play , now that DU seems to be fading into the distance. IE have a lot to answer for. Too much " project decisions " and not enough " project appraisal "

LXFlyer · 10-07-2015 12:48pm

BoatMad wrote: »

Funny , how the Phoenix park tunnel is back in play , now that DU seems to be fading into the distance. IE have a lot to answer for. Too much " project decisions " and not enough " project appraisal "

Well to be fair using the Phoenix Park Tunnel is an NTA decision and it's one where they are trying to maximise the return on the investment in the city centre resignalling project, by routing more trains over the loop line bridge.

I'm not sure why you are blaming IE for the DART Underground delay? This is a political decision and no matter how hard individual agencies work, political decisions are never ever straightforward.

BoatMad · 10-07-2015 1:01pm

lxflyer wrote: »

Well to be fair using the Phoenix Park Tunnel is an NTA decision and it's one where they are trying to maximise the return on the investment in the city centre resignalling project, by routing more trains over the loop line bridge.

I'm not sure why you are blaming IE for the DART Underground delay? This is a political decision and no matter how hard individual agencies work, political decisions are never ever straightforward.

IE could have pushed the park tunnel as an interim solution yet for years back-pedalled on it. I just finished reading ersi critique of strategic rail reviews ( 2001) specifically mentions the way park tunnel was pushed as " unsuitable " as DU was the " bright new thing "

It's what happens when you have engineer driven projects , where people's income and carears are based on implementing projects

Captain Chaos · 10-07-2015 1:03pm

BoatMad wrote: »

In reality Dublin could be handled by a series of Luas lines and the closure of IE.

In practice , it's just the public sector politics that keeps IE in existence

That's the sorry truth

You are having a laugh. Do you use public transport in Dublin. During peak hours there are DARTs 10-15mins apart with around 900 passengers on each.

No light rail system can manage that amount properly. During the boom years DART loads were 1000-1200 per train every 15mins.

LXFlyer · 10-07-2015 1:06pm

BoatMad wrote: »

IE could have pushed the park tunnel as an interim solution yet for years back-pedalled on it. I just finished reading ersi critique of strategic rail reviews ( 2001) specifically mentions the way park tunnel was pushed as " unsuitable " as DU was the " bright new thing "

It's what happens when you have engineer driven projects , where people's income and carears are based on implementing projects

It wouldn't have made much odds given that the funding was withheld for the City Centre Resignalling Project.

Without that, using the tunnel would be pointless as neither Connolly nor the Loop Line bridge would have had the capacity to cope with those extra trains.

jd · 10-07-2015 1:09pm

BoatMad wrote: »

IE could have pushed the park tunnel as an interim solution yet for years back-pedalled on it. I just finished reading ersi critique of strategic rail reviews ( 2001) specifically mentions the way park tunnel was pushed as " unsuitable " as DU was the " bright new thing "

It's what happens when you have engineer driven projects , where people's income and carears are based on implementing projects

That would be Sean Barrett's paper I presume. Wasn't he against the DART in the early 80s?

BoatMad · 10-07-2015 1:13pm

Captain Chaos wrote: »

You are having a laugh. Do you use public transport in Dublin. During peak hours there are DARTs 10-15mins apart with around 900 passengers on each.

No light rail system can manage that amount properly. During the boom years DART loads were 1000-1200 per train every 15mins.

Yes I do. It's s poor system , badly implemented , fractured and base on decisions made in the 19th century.

I merely state that rail transport simply by dint of percentage of people carried is simply NOT indispensable to public transportation in Dublin.

Partially segregated light rail for example is not significantly different to current infrastructure

I merely offer the view that rail is not necessary to implement a successful public transport policy. That's not to say we are were we are etc.

LXFlyer · 10-07-2015 1:17pm

jd wrote: »

That would be Sean Barrett's paper I presume. Wasn't he against the DART in the early 80s?

Sean Barrett has opposed every heavy rail project mooted in Ireland.

Not the most objective view at all.

BoatMad · 10-07-2015 1:18pm

lxflyer wrote: »

It wouldn't have made much odds given that the funding was withheld for the City Centre Resignalling Project.

Without that, using the tunnel would be pointless as neither Connolly nor the Loop Line bridge would have had the capacity to cope with those extra trains.

I've worked on ctc in the past , the signalling project is unlikely to deliver what's expected of it and I've never seen a proper technical evaluation of why it's needed to allow Phoenix park tunnel traffic.

I think these projects get cross justified to try and get these projects through. It's classic engineer justification process I know I've done similar things elsewhere

LXFlyer · 10-07-2015 1:31pm

BoatMad wrote: »

I've worked on ctc in the past , the signalling project is unlikely to deliver what's expected of it and I've never seen a proper technical evaluation of why it's needed to allow Phoenix park tunnel traffic.

I think these projects get cross justified to try and get these projects through. It's classic engineer justification process I know I've done similar things elsewhere

The project will deliver what's needed - a 10 minute DART (or higher at peak) plus the paths required for the Northern, Maynooth and Kildare line trains through Connolly and over the Loop Line.

Under the existing signalling there are insufficient paths available for extra trains to come into Connolly and across the loop line bridge. I'm not trying to cross-justify anything. You try sitting down and coming up with a full working timetable for it under existing head ways and then come back and tell me it can be done using existing signalling.

BoatMad · 10-07-2015 2:35pm

lxflyer wrote: »

The project will deliver what's needed - a 10 minute DART (or higher at peak) plus the paths required for the Northern, Maynooth and Kildare line trains through Connolly and over the Loop Line.

Under the existing signalling there are insufficient paths available for extra trains to come into Connolly and across the loop line bridge. I'm not trying to cross-justify anything. You try sitting down and coming up with a full working timetable for it under existing head ways and then come back and tell me it can be done using existing signalling.

Unless you've seen the engineering proposals and or the signalling simulation, you cannot make the conclusion you have made

I've not seen any clear summary of what is the problem ( in signalling terms ) and specifically what will be fixed.

The fundamental issues with paths will remain

The Phoenix park could have been re activated much sooner but was subjugated to the bright shiny new project that is dart underground

cgcsb · 10-07-2015 3:17pm

BoatMad wrote: »

I merely offer the view that rail is not necessary to implement a successful public transport policy.

:rolleyes:

Right yeah. It is just a public forum, but honestly you need to get a clue.

monument · 10-07-2015 3:54pm

Everybody relax a bit, and don't be telling people what they can or cannot say unless you can back up that they are wrong and even if you can back up that they are wrong lay off telling people they can't have their own views.

- Moderator

cgcsb wrote: »

:rolleyes:

Right yeah. It is just a public forum, but honestly you need to get a clue.

Cut it out.

-- mod

end of the road · 10-07-2015 3:54pm

BoatMad wrote: »

Let's scotch the idea, that there is or should be any connection between motorway investment and rail investment.

Road transport is carrying 95% of all journeys, it's a necessary feature of our lives.
Rail transport is a minoroty activity arguably outside a few Luas lines , is not necessary for the functioning of our state.

In reality Dublin could be handled by a series of Luas lines and the closure of IE.

In practice , it's just the public sector politics that keeps IE in existence

That's the sorry truth

not so true. luas would not be able to handle the capacity of dart. i do agree with you though that ultimately politics will decide the future of the rail network, always has been the way since nationalisation.

BoatMad · 10-07-2015 4:11pm

end of the road wrote: »

not so true. luas would not be able to handle the capacity of dart. i do agree with you though that ultimately politics will decide the future of the rail network, always has been the way since nationalisation.

The whole of IE in 2013 had 36 million passenger journeys
Luas had 29.5.
Dart carried 50 % of IE numbers. So approx 15 million

I suggest it's entirely arguable that an expanded Luas could easily handle fart traffic

BoatMad · 10-07-2015 4:12pm

lxflyer wrote: »

Sean Barrett has opposed every heavy rail project mooted in Ireland.

Not the most objective view at all.

On a financial basis he's arguably right

monument · 10-07-2015 4:30pm

BoatMad wrote: »

The whole of IE in 2013 had 36 million passenger journeys
Luas had 29.5.
Dart carried 50 % of IE numbers. So approx 15 million

I suggest it's entirely arguable that an expanded Luas could easily handle fart traffic

A large part of the success of Luas is that it has relatively high passenger boarding numbers outside of peak times.

Dart was not at capacity in 2013, the city centre re-signaling would add more capacity, and Dart Underground would add even more in a way Luas would not be able to reach.

These systems however should be seen as complementary, not one or the other.

BoatMad · 10-07-2015 4:45pm

monument wrote: »

A large part of the success of Luas is that it has relatively high passenger boarding numbers outside of peak times.

Dart was not at capacity in 2013, the city centre re-signaling would add more capacity, and Dart Underground would add even more in a way Luas would not be able to reach.

These systems however should be seen as complementary, not one or the other.

I am merely arguing that broad gauge rail is not indispensable in providing a public transportation infrastructure in Ireland. It simply is not carrying enough proportion of passengers to be material.

It owes its existence to political lifelines rather then reality based decisions.

Hence I would question the usefullness of any major capital project. The companies economics are getting worse not better

monument · 10-07-2015 5:02pm

BoatMad wrote: »

I am merely arguing that broad gauge rail is not indispensable in providing a public transportation infrastructure in Ireland. It simply is not carrying enough proportion of passengers to be material.

It owes its existence to political lifelines rather then reality based decisions.

Hence I would question the usefullness of any major capital project. The companies economics are getting worse not better

I've detailing why your assertions on this just don't add up: (1) because you're not comparing proportion of passenger capacity at peak, and (2) they are not like for like where they carry passengers to/from, (3) the point on indispensability is pointless, nothing is really indispensable.

Re questioning the usefulness of any major capital project: have you done that in any detail? I might have missed your post but I can't see any notable chalange to the Dart Underground business case.

Banjoxed · 10-07-2015 8:56pm

BoatMad wrote: »

On a financial basis he's arguably right

Well it's not 1958 anymore and it would be nice to think that the imperative to sell cars, build roads and socially engineer imaginary Protestant solicitors out of trains isn't the determinant of public policy.

maninasia · 14-07-2015 3:42pm

BoatMad wrote: »

No difference to many other countries , see UKs cross rail project. Etc

Go to Asia if you want to see booming public transport. Even some 2nd and 3rd tier cities in Asia are starting to leave Dublin in the shade. China alone is building comprehensive subway systems in most cities and linking it's cities with high speed rail networks. In fact there are high speed rail networks now in Korea, Taiwan, Japan, China and planned for Thailand, Malaysia and Singapore.

When I visit Dublin I just can't help but shake my head at the mess we've made of the city..stagnation that is causing it to become a difficult and unpleasant place to get around in many parts especially at the population increases. Yes the luas is a nice addition but it simply cannot handle large numbers of commuters and is slow.

I don't have much experience of other areas but I can imagine the chaos in Galway and possibly Cork too.

BoatMad · 16-07-2015 12:55am

China is a communist country what it does cannot be taken as useful to us.

Others countries have enormous urban populations. We do not.

Rail is not an inherent indispensable method of transporting people in that scenario. This is especially true of inte urban rail

Lenton Lane · 16-07-2015 7:24am

BoatMad wrote: »

China is a communist country what it does cannot be taken as useful to us.

Others countries have enormous urban populations. We do not.

Rail is not an inherent indispensable method of transporting people in that scenario. This is especially true of inte urban rail

The Greater Dublin area is currently experiencing an increasing amount of road traffic as the economy starts to recover. The journey from the airport to the City Centre can now take up to an hour or more and as a regular user of the airport I can see that providing a partly road based method of transportation like the Luas is not going to be adequate if the economy picks up further and the road traffic levels increase.

One recurring theme that we hear in this country again and again is that because we are Ireland we are different. We are not. The only way we are different is that we rarely plan strategically and we continue to take the approach that everything must be done in Dublin and to treat the entire rest of the country like a rural hinterland.

We pay far too much attention to the likes of Sean Barrett, Colm McCarthy and Wendell Cox who all oppose public transport for ideological reasons and pay little or no attention to the facts on the ground. A rail link to the airport from Clongriffin is relatively cheap to build by railway standards and yet be the catalyst for the biggest change to our railways since the 1950s. Dublin Airport is where the bulk of visitors and business people arrive in this country and we could use the link to start their journey, not just to Dublin's City Centre but elsewhere in the country.

The Airport link has a massive Benefit-Cost ratio and ought to be a no-brainer for the government to approve. Instead, someone, somewhere in the DTTAS and the NTA thinks that the Luas should be extended to the airport. Don't get me wrong; the Luas should be extended to the airport as well, but in any other country with the choice to make between one or the other project to start first, it would be the airport rail link that would be given the green light.

loyatemu · 16-07-2015 9:24am

Lenton Lane wrote: »

The Airport link has a massive Benefit-Cost ratio and ought to be a no-brainer for the government to approve.

really - the DART spur has a massive benefit/cost ratio? Is there a report on this (other than one written by Irish Rail).

Banjoxed · 16-07-2015 1:14pm

loyatemu wrote: »

really - the DART spur has a massive benefit/cost ratio? Is there a report on this (other than one written by Irish Rail).

A push for the classic "do-nothing" option?

McAlban · 16-07-2015 3:57pm

Holistic is the word that needs to be concentrated on...
I live north of Swords and have to drive to work in Santry every day which takes about 30 minutes. This won't change no matter what happens as I live in Rural Fingal. So I am not biased for for any of the proposed solutions.

I remember going into Dublin Bus head office in O'Connell street in 1997 and seeing a multimedia presentation on what became Luas. D2 was one of the lines touted back then. It will cost too much, create too much disruption on a busy artery and be not fit for purpose from Day one.

For an example of how MN should be done. Have a look at the Copenhagen Metro, which I've taken a number of times, and it is excellent (and also very cool to sit at the front of a driverless train). It serves a city of similar size and population to Dublin and takes €55 Million passengers a year, although CPH airport also has a heavy rail station. In which you can get Copenhagen and other Danish towns via heavy rail and to Malmo in Sweden and connect to the Swedish heavy rail network within 20 Minutes. I have arrived in CPH and been in my Hotel in Malmo within 30 Minutes. Two separate countries, two separate Cities, two separate rail companies. It is possible!
Getting from the Airport to Dublin City Centre is the main objective, as well as creating a public transport route through Swords/Ballymun/DCU/Glasnevin area. So MN needs to happen, Swords Metropolitan Area has almost 70,000 People.

Now thinking holistically, I would extend MN from the proposed Lissenhall/Belinstown depot out to Lusk & Rush station (Link up with IE Intercity and Commuter on the Northern Line). Reason being there is lots of empty agricultural land close to this station (Unlike any other on the Northern Line). Linking two towns that have grown massively during the Celtic Tiger, and also increase connectivity for Balbriggan/Skerries/Drogheda area commuters (There is always only standing room in commuter trains at this stage) the route from Belinstown to Lusk/Rush is almost all agricultural land and would require maybe one overbridge on the motorway and another one or two bridges on the route.

As for the BRT, with MN Serving the Swords/Airport/Ballymun Route, I think it could still be done to serve the route of the QBC already in Place along the Swords Road / N1 / R132 Route. Linking up with MN in Swords and again at Drumcondra Station.
The better the interchanges and connectivity, the more chance a public transport system has at succeeding, especially rail. It’s why they work so well in other European cities, and fail in Dublin.

Idbatterim · 16-07-2015 7:46pm

Fg will get back in, do the unpopular thing as some view it, and give us an appropriate, northside, airport link, after having secured the election...

also was BXD always planned, or was it in response to shelving of MN? an airport Luas might have been an option if much of it was segregated in city centre and frequency could be increased....

so it seems like in typical irish style, we have a serious sum to do something crap, but not the little extra to get something with longevity?

Has anything in this report, which I already view as outdated, given the turnaround, massive airport growth and housing shortage, been taken into account, in this report? Imagine 5 years down the road, nothing is done, options are looked at, the luas option would be laughed out. it would be laughed off the table, yet its an option for them now, when it wont even be open in 5 years! LOL! Serving an airport with 25,000,000 or as good as, at years end... If we take 7% compound growth, over 5 years, that leaves numbers just shy of 36,000,000!!! I know its not only about the airport, far from it, but those numbers alone, rule it out entirely IMO. Also if whatever line, doesnt link up with northern line, its farcial...

Muahahaha · 16-07-2015 8:10pm

Does anyone know the approx journey time for the Aircoach to reach SSG? Broombridge to SSG is going to take 26 minutes on the Luas, how long would it take to do the airport to SSG? Up to 50 minutes is my guess, probably meaning Aircoach/Airlink services would be quicker

pclive · 17-07-2015 9:23am

Muahahaha wrote: »

Does anyone know the approx journey time for the Aircoach to reach SSG? Broombridge to SSG is going to take 26 minutes on the Luas, how long would it take to do the airport to SSG? Up to 50 minutes is my guess, probably meaning Aircoach/Airlink services would be quicker

I got the aircoach to Belfast from O'Connell Street on friday at 16:30 last week and it took 20min. Now i know there are no stops between town and the airport for this service. This time will reduce again slightly when the new bus lane at St Patrick's College opens at the end of the month.

A friend of mine lives in Phibsborough and he says Pascal is taking the credit for bringing the LUAS! Can you believe that! So why wouldn't he want to extend it now to the airport

Its a grand little country!!

cgcsb · 17-07-2015 9:26am

Idbatterim wrote: »

also was BXD always planned, or was it in response to shelving of MN?

it was planned since at least 2005.

Idbatterim wrote: »

Has anything in this report, which I already view as outdated, given the turnaround, massive airport growth and housing shortage, been taken into account, in this report? Imagine 5 years down the road, nothing is done, options are looked at, the luas option would be laughed out. it would be laughed off the table, yet its an option for them now, when it wont even be open in 5 years! LOL! Serving an airport with 25,000,000 or as good as, at years end... If we take 7% compound growth, over 5 years, that leaves numbers just shy of 36,000,000!!! I know its not only about the airport, far from it, but those numbers alone, rule it out entirely IMO. Also if whatever line, doesnt link up with northern line, its farcial...

surface luas to the airport was laughed off the table in the initial study carried out in the late 1990's at a time when Dublin's population was half what it will be in 2025 and Dublin airport was a pretty small one terminal affair.

Obviously it's not a suitable solution now when Dublin is set to outgrow some of the smaller European capitals in the next 2 decades.

loyatemu · 17-07-2015 11:00am

Banjoxed wrote: »

A push for the classic "do-nothing" option?

Hardly - but the flaws in Irish Rails plan have been pointed out on here before - it only serves the airport, its slow and it dumps passengers in Connolly which is unlikely to be where most of them want to go. The only thing it has going for it is that it would put to bed the whole "only airport without a rail link" national inferiority complex thing.

Despite it's relative cheapness it has been rejected by successive transport plans so I'm interested to know where the claim of excellent Benefit/Cost ratio is coming from.

McAlban · 17-07-2015 12:06pm

loyatemu wrote: »

...I'm interested to know where the claim of excellent Benefit/Cost ratio is coming from.

Eh didn't it come from the CBA for the MN Project that the RPA spent millions on consultants to carry out??

LXFlyer · 17-07-2015 12:20pm

loyatemu wrote: »

Hardly - but the flaws in Irish Rails plan have been pointed out on here before - it only serves the airport, its slow and it dumps passengers in Connolly which is unlikely to be where most of them want to go. The only thing it has going for it is that it would put to bed the whole "only airport without a rail link" national inferiority complex thing.

Despite it's relative cheapness it has been rejected by successive transport plans so I'm interested to know where the claim of excellent Benefit/Cost ratio is coming from.

It also provides a direct link to the airport from the northeast of the city for anyone that works in the airport or is flying from there.

It would provide a connection for North Dublin (and probably Belfast) at Clongriffin.

People keep forgetting that thousands of people work at the airport too and are unlikely to want to travel to/from the city, but rather to/from the suburbs around the airport.

Muahahaha · 17-07-2015 2:05pm

pclive wrote: »

I got the aircoach to Belfast from O'Connell Street on friday at 16:30 last week and it took 20min. Now i know there are no stops between town and the airport for this service. This time will reduce again slightly when the new bus lane at St Patrick's College opens at the end of the month.

A friend of mine lives in Phibsborough and he says Pascal is taking the credit for bringing the LUAS! Can you believe that! So why wouldn't he want to extend it now to the airport

Its a grand little country!!

I've heard that about Paschal myself as I live up the road in Finglas. The guy is off his nut if he thinks he can claim credit for it, where was he in 2005 when the plans were laid?!

Anyway if the Luas does get extended from Broombridge to the airport theres a chance that I might benefit as the line may pass through Charlestown in Finglas where I live. But even if it did I dont think I'd use it to get into town, namely because I reckon the 140 bus service on my doorstep would actually be quicker than the Luas to town. Furthermore with the introduction of cashless payments coming down the track Dublin Bus times have the potential to get quicker, also if Garda resources were allocated to police bus lane blockers effectively then we could see Dublin Bus times get even quicker again.

So even though I may well benefit from a Luas where I live I'd only see it as useful for a couple of trips to the airport every year. For me it has to be Metro North and DU first and then a Luas extension to the airport later.

monument · 17-07-2015 2:20pm

Muahahaha wrote: »

Anyway if the Luas does get extended from Broombridge to the airport theres a chance that I might benefit as the line may pass through Charlestown in Finglas where I live.

Plan is to divert before Broombridge and tunnel under the Glasnevin graveyards.

Muahahaha wrote: »

But even if it did I dont think I'd use it to get into town, namely because I reckon the 140 bus service on my doorstep would actually be quicker than the Luas to town.

There's no plan to extend it to Finglas yet, but Luas would likely be faster because it does not have to deal with Hart's Corrner to Broadstone and has less or no junctions between Finglas and Broadstone gate.

Idbatterim · 17-07-2015 2:47pm

I've heard that about Paschal myself as I live up the road in Finglas. The guy is off his nut if he thinks he can claim credit for it, where was he in 2005 when the plans were laid?!

the guy comes across as an absolute joke, even compared to the rest of them! Varadkar seemed far more competent in transport. Of course they were going to throw a poodle into that area, its an area that they resent funding, its not the DSP black hole, where they cant send enough money to...

Muahahaha · 17-07-2015 3:01pm

monument wrote: »

There's no plan to extend it to Finglas yet, but Luas would likely be faster because it does not have to deal with Hart's Corrner to Broadstone and has less or no junctions between Finglas and Broadstone gate.

True that, but I feel DB times should also improve with a move to cashless and unblocking bus lanes of delivery trucks, taxis pulling in at will, etc all of which as a cyclist are a hindrance but must be an absolute nightmare if you're driving a double decker, thus slowing buses down.

In any case I wont be holding my breath on a Luas to Finglas anytime soon. If the Luas is going under Glasnevin and up Ballymun to the airport (much the same route as MN iirc) then do people envisage a situation in about 10 years where we have a Luas to the airport that is passing to within about a 10 minute walk of perhaps 150,000 north Dublin residents, with this one line being expected to serve both them and a good portion of the approx 30 million passengers coming through the airport but cant handle the capacity. What will happen then, will we end up building a MN line virtually parallel to the Luas one?!

Idbatterim · 17-07-2015 3:04pm

In any case I wont be holding my breath on a Luas to Finglas anytime soon. If the Luas is going under Glasnevin and up Ballymun to the airport (much the same route as MN iirc) then do people envisage a situation in about 10 years where we have a Luas to the airport that is passing to within about a 10 minute walk of perhaps 150,000 north Dublin residents, with this one line being expected to serve both them and a good portion of the approx 30 million passengers coming through the airport but cant handle the capacity. What will happen then, will we end up building a MN line virtually parallel to the Luas one?!

yeah and what about the sheer amount of residential land that will be close to it, that has not yet been developed? Or will have to be developed at lower densities due to restricted capacity? Its madness!

who has the final decision on which option is chosen?

pclive · 17-07-2015 3:20pm

Idbatterim wrote: »

yeah and what about the sheer amount of residential land that will be close to it, that has not yet been developed? Or will have to be developed at lower densities due to restricted capacity? Its madness!

who has the final decision on which option is chosen?

The Minister and Cabinet I suppose will have the final say so we will be getting the LUAS from Phibsborough to the airport option.

The gov will want him to save his seat and the LUAS to the airport would be a nice sweetener on the door step in October/Nov

LXFlyer · 17-07-2015 3:27pm

Idbatterim wrote: »

the guy comes across as an absolute joke, even compared to the rest of them! Varadkar seemed far more competent in transport. Of course they were going to throw a poodle into that area, its an area that they resent funding, its not the DSP black hole, where they cant send enough money to...

And which one of the two ministers that you named actually stopped PSO subsidies from dropping any further?

A hint - the one you suggest that comes across as an absolute joke.

Idbatterim · 17-07-2015 4:14pm

I cant see how you stop politics coming into play, but the decision is going to be a political one then, not the correct one for Dublin or north dublin. But whatever the cheapest short term option that they can foist on us is. Pretty much explains our appalling transport infrastructure to date...

And which one of the two ministers that you named actually stopped PSO subsidies from dropping any further?

he was in the position after Varadkar, when the states finances were improving...

LXFlyer · 17-07-2015 4:28pm

Idbatterim wrote: »

he was in the position after Varadkar, when the states finances were improving...

Oh come on - every post that you've made about the man has been derogatory and seems to be based on the fact he isn'a Rottweiler in terms of his behaviour or that he has a slight speech impediment. What a way to judge someone. You couldn't even get his name right in another post.

Varadkar had very little interest in transport, caused serious industrial relations issues (particularly in Irish Rail) due to mouthing off at critical times, and severely cut the PSO subsidies, forcing cuts in services/train lengths.

And yet, the current minister who managed to stop PSO funding being cut any more is the one that you seem to think is a "joke" or a "poodle". He also pushed through the sale of the remaining government shares in Aer Lingus. Hardly someone who is not able to fight his corner.

I think a little less of the personal attacks might be an idea. Let's see what actually happens.

I have no issue with attacking a politician based on his actions, but your posts seem focussed on him personally.

Banjoxed · 19-07-2015 8:52am

Idbatterim wrote: »

I cant see how you stop politics coming into play, but the decision is going to be a political one then, not the correct one for Dublin or north dublin. But whatever the cheapest short term option that they can foist on us is. Pretty much explains our appalling transport infrastructure to date...

he was in the position after Varadkar, when the states finances were improving...

Our appaling transport infrastructure can be blamed squarely on ideologues such as Colm MacCarthy and Sean Barrett influencing the senior civil service and hence ministers who needed a piece of paper to read their own names into the Dail record. Simple as that.

monument · 21-07-2015 6:16pm

If you want Dart Underground built ahead of any airport Luas, like this page and share it with friends, family and work mates:

https://www.facebook.com/BuildDartUnderground/

I'm sharing this because there seems to be a large percentage of people on here behind building Dart Underground first.

Banjoxed · 21-07-2015 8:27pm

monument wrote: »

If you want Dart Underground built ahead of any airport Luas, like this page and share it with friends, family and work mates:

https://www.facebook.com/BuildDartUnderground/

I'm sharing this because there seems to be a large percentage of people on here behind building Dart Underground first.

I've liked this on FB, but does any Government minister, anywhere, say that they have implemented anything on the back of a FB page?

Grandeeod · 21-07-2015 8:34pm

monument wrote: »

If you want Dart Underground built ahead of any airport Luas, like this page and share it with friends, family and work mates:

https://www.facebook.com/BuildDartUnderground/

I'm sharing this because there seems to be a large percentage of people on here behind building Dart Underground first.

History repeating itself.

10 years ago Monument, it was about DU being built before MN. The lads in Leinster House need a bigger push than a Facebook page.

end of the road · 21-07-2015 8:59pm

Banjoxed wrote: »

I've liked this on FB, but does any Government minister, anywhere, say that they have implemented anything on the back of a FB page?

i've liked it myself. it still won't get built though.

monument · 21-07-2015 11:38pm

Grandeeod wrote: »

History repeating itself.

10 years ago Monument, it was about DU being built before MN. The lads in Leinster House need a bigger push than a Facebook page.

If you have the time or a budget and resources please fire ahead with anything else...

expectationlost · 23-07-2015 8:40pm

end of the road wrote: »

and a metro would be even better. luas is just not able to handle the capacity required by a airport city link

what the difference between Metro North's em rolling stock/track and Luas's rolling stock/track again?

DART Underground planning due to lapse, but lots of Airport Luas talk?

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