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Traffic congestion - simultaneous positive and negative illusions?

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    #32
    pillphil
    Registered Users Posts: 773 ✭✭✭pillphil


    SeanW wrote: »
    Ah yes, another thread with a bunch of political cyclists doing an Animal Farm-esque rendition of "two wheels good, four wheels baaaaaaad" blaming horrible evil motorists for everything short of Ebola.

    Do wings count as legs? I mean wheels?


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    #33
    KevR
    Registered Users Posts: 3,110 ✭✭✭KevR


    Markcheese wrote: »
    Do they have the money for the bypass ? Will it just make the problem worse ?
    A bigger better bypass means more people commuting further at the same times,all blocking same junctions ect ect.. (there's a thread on motors at the moment bemoaning the state of the m50 at the moment )
    Actually now would be the right time for Galway city/county to get behind a cycle friendly policy as well as a few decent bus corridors... Before it ends up more complicated by new roads...

    The population of the country is growing and the economy is picking up. This means that more people will need to commute. New roads don't cause more people to commute, new roads facilitate people in commuting efficiently.

    We have the option of doing nothing to improve our overall transport network but that would obviously stifle economic growth in the long term.

    We could:
    • Invest exclusively in public transport and cycling facilities.
    • Invest exclusively in roads.
    • Invest in both roads and public transport / cycling facilities.
    As crazy and all as the third option is ;), I think it just might work. In fact, it may even be the best option.


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    #34
    KevR
    Registered Users Posts: 3,110 ✭✭✭KevR


    My current commute to work is approximately 3.5 miles. Part of my route is on a free-flowing urban dual carriageway.

    Driving pros:
    • It consistently takes me 7 minutes to drive to and from work.
    • It's warm, comfortable and I don't get rained on.

    Driving cons:
    • Motor related expenses

    My alternatives:

    Bus: 5 minute walk + roughly a 5 minute wait for the bus. The bus takes another 15 mins or so to get me to my destination as it takes a less direct route and makes a couple of stops, average speed is also lower as it does not use the dual carriageway. 25 mins in total one-way. 50 mins return (36 mins extra daily or 3 hours per week). I would still need to own a car so I don't think I would be better off financially. I might get a little wet on the walk to the bus stop.

    Walk: it would take roughly an hour each way. Great exercise but would add too much time to my working day (1 hour 46 per day or almost 9 hours per week). I would get wet whenever it rains; I have to be in work at a set time so I couldn't delay leaving the house to avoid a rain shower. Getting changed in and out of wet gear adds more time. I would save a little bit of money compared to the bus and car options.

    Cycling: realistically I wouldn't be going hell for leather in terms of pace - I work in an office and couldn't arrive in all sweaty. Let's say it would take me 20 mins each way. I would save a little bit of money compared to the bus option (remember, I cannot get rid of my car) but rain/cold would be more of an issue than the bus option which only has a short walk. I cycled daily in Galway for 5 years - I didn't have a single near miss during that time. Even though I don't feel vulnerable as a cyclist, I do have to say that I feel just a touch safer as a pedestrian.

    By the way, I don't need to go on the DC if I walk or cycle - there are alternative routes which are equally direct.

    All in all, driving will continue to be my preferred choice. Even if I didn't have the free-flowing dual carriageway and the journey took longer, I think the comfort aspect would have me choosing to drive not all but certainly a lot of the time.


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    #35
    SeanW
    Registered Users Posts: 8,776 ✭✭✭SeanW


    Tenzor07 wrote: »
    "dilettante Libertarians" eh? You talking about me?
    Actually, he meant me with that jibe - and it most certainly was a jibe, certainly the dilettante part and given his mindset he probably meant the term libertarian as a insult too.

    I thought that this sort of thing was against boards rules but it seems not to be so :(

    (BTW a little grammar lesson for IWH, "libertarian" is spelled with a lower case "l", unless you use the term to refer to a member of any so-named Libertarian Party).
    Iwannahurl wrote: »
    The dilettante Libertarians have arrived on the scene, so perhaps now is a good time to start on those urgent jobs such as tidying the paper clips or dusting the monitor.
    I agree ...
    As for the Holy Grail Panacea Great White Hope Galway City Outer Bypass, its alleged purpose is to ensure that you avoid Galway City.
    Again, have you ever even seen a road map of Galway City? If the GCOB is not intended to ... bypass Galway City, then please feel free to show me how you would get from Spiddal to Athenry without going through Galway city streets. And without a 60 mile detour around Lough Corrib. Consult a map of the city you supposidly live in, and then get back to us. ta.


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    #36
    Iwannahurl
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,156 ✭✭✭Iwannahurl


    KevR wrote: »
    New roads don't cause more people to commute, new roads facilitate people in commuting efficiently.


    There is a body of well-established evidence that increasing road capacity for private cars sooner or later leads to an increase in car trips until congestion inevitably occurs again.

    This is all part of the illusion of road-building, which is that all we need is continue expanding road capacity to keep congestion at bay. Governments already know this, but they are locked into an economic and transportation model that is unsustainably dependent on private cars.

    It is easy to refute the notion that increasing capacity for cars does not induce more car use.

    In any case, what's really important is moving people, not cars. Facilitating private cars is actually the most inefficient strategy of all, yet typically in Ireland the word "people" is used when what is really meant is "cars" or "motorists".

    If creating new infrastructure does not increase usage, then why advocate improved public transport, cycle lanes and the like? The glaringly obvious answer is that allocating more space and greater investment to walking, cycling and public transport does increase their modal share.

    Using Galway as an example again, some other (self-contradictory) illusions are that the city centre is acutely congested and therefore best avoided until €300 million is spent on a ring road "bypass", that parking costs are "scaring people" (that euphemism "people" again) away from the city centre, and that there is "no room" for allocating more space in the centre to walking, cycling and public transport.

    That last point is an important one. The necessary illusion is that space is so limited that only one or two modes can be allocated a decent Level of Service in any one scheme, and that something has to give. That's why Galway City Council is willing to widen a footpath, for example, but the price to be paid is a one-way street that may cut off a key route for cyclists.

    Here is an example of Galway City Council's self-delusion in that regard (illusion is too kind a word), which I happened to pass by just today.

    Photo 1: This narrow street in Galway apparently has room for two-way traffic as well as Pay & Display parking, but not for a footpath. Enforcement of parking regulations is almost non-existent these days, and when it occurs is often focused on Motor Tax.

    321977.jpg

    _________________

    Photo 2: This road runs between two schools, one primary (right of photo) and one secondary. There is space provided on both sides for Pay & Display car parking (almost never enforced, especially during school run times) and additional space is taken up by illegally parked cars. There is only one footpath.

    321978.jpg

    _________________

    Photo 3: The secondary school is behind the wall on the right. Space has been provided for Pay & Display parking, and other space is taken up by illegal parking, which is a daily occurrence during school term and never receives attention from law enforcers. There is only one footpath.

    321979.jpg

    _________________

    Photo 4: The access road to the primary school has been made one-way by Galway City Council. It is therefore illegal to cycle to the primary school from residential areas on the east side of this locality. Law-abiding children and their parents who wish to cycle are required to either walk their bikes to the school from this point or else take a detour (which would be 750 metres if going the whole way by road). Self-evidently the City Council is satisfied that there is room for car parking, legal and illegal, but not for a contra-flow cycle lane or a higher Level of Service for pedestrians. Incidentally there are no pedestrian crossings of any sort in the vicinity.

    321980.jpg


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    #37
    goalscoringhero
    Registered Users Posts: 148 ✭✭goalscoringhero


    I think this is a very good post as it is constructive, fact-based free of emotive language.
    KevR wrote: »
    My current commute to work is approximately 3.5 miles. Part of my route is on a free-flowing urban dual carriageway. ...

    I'll outline my commuter options in the following.
    Living outside Oranmore (Oranbeg), working at Ballybrit. Commute to work: roughly 11 km. Luxury of not having to cross the city.

    Driving pros:
    Warm & dry. Able to listen to radio, and to transport large & heavy items along the way (big shopping, laptop, running gear for the week, etc). Journey time without any traffic (i.e. night time): ~15 min.

    Driving cons:
    Cost for diesel. Stuck in traffic, in case I don't leave before 8am. Journey time with traffic: ~25 to 30 mins.


    My alternatives:

    Bus: No real alternative - 3km to bus stop. Would have to get off at GMIT. Another 2km to work from there.

    Walk: Sometimes I run. Takes ~1h, another 10min for shower (have facilities at work).
    Benefits: awesome along the coast road on a nice day. Exercise done for the day.
    Drawbacks: have to run back, not interested in running 20k+ every day of the week. Will probably do that more if training for an ultra.

    Cycling: Most days, regardless of weather. Takes ~30mins, easy enough without too much sweating. No shower required. Rain not a factor as have good waterproofs. Even in worst rain I always arrive dry - except for feet.
    Benefits: journey time not significantly higher than driving, beautiful scenery along coast road, wide hard shoulder and not too many cars.
    Drawbacks: wind in winter sometimes very rough, especially in the evenings.


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    #38
    Chris_5339762
    Registered Users Posts: 5,858 ✭✭✭Chris_5339762


    Tenzor07 wrote: »
    Build more roads = even more motor traffic and congestion, it's a basic fact..

    Yes and no. The bypass will take all through-traffic out of Galway and while it will generate more traffic, it'll do so as an effect of increasing the economy of the town and making it altogether a much more pleasant place to live in. When that through-traffic is removed, it could be a first step in increasing cycling facilities.

    Galways population just isn't high enough to have buses regular enough to encourage people to use them.

    I wrote a big rant a few years ago on this where I analysed it all carefully, and the bypass was phase 1 of just about any plan you could possibly think of. The layout of Galway means it just needs to happen.


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    #39
    Iwannahurl
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,156 ✭✭✭Iwannahurl


    Chris_5339762 wrote: »
    Yes and no. The bypass will take all through-traffic out of Galway and while it will generate more traffic, it'll do so as an effect of increasing the economy of the town and making it altogether a much more pleasant place to live in. When that through-traffic is removed, it could be a first step in increasing cycling facilities.

    Galways population just isn't high enough to have buses regular enough to encourage people to use them.

    I wrote a big rant a few years ago on this where I analysed it all carefully, and the bypass was phase 1 of just about any plan you could possibly think of. The layout of Galway means it just needs to happen.


    Several more illusions in there.

    The bypass-as-ultimate-solution illusion has been the subject of several threads already elsewhere on Boards. Many of the specious arguments in favour of the supposed "bypass" are dealt with here: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056925104


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    #40
    Markcheese
    Registered Users Posts: 8,431 ✭✭✭Markcheese


    I'm not anti new roads but if a by-pass /relief road/ orbital thingy gets built would it not also need really good planning regs and a bit of planning understanding to make sure that over time it doesn't become like the m50 or n40 ect and just block up with local short hop traffic,hyperstore traffic ect..

    Slava ukraini 🇺🇦



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    #41
    SeanW
    Registered Users Posts: 8,776 ✭✭✭SeanW


    Tenzor07 wrote: »
    Or maybe just holiday in one of these lovely uncongested European cities where people come first not roads and private cars.... :rolleyes:
    Iwannahurl wrote: »
    What's being forced down people's throats in Galway -- quite literally -- is air pollution cause by motorised transport, for example.
    Funny how some individuals talk about "people" ... especially when many of the posters who do this - provably - don't give a f@#k about people and are more/only concerned with pushing their ideology down the throats of actual "people."

    For some individuals it seems, it's about ideology first and people, maybe at best, a distant second.


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    #42
    Iwannahurl
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,156 ✭✭✭Iwannahurl


    Diesel fumes cause cancer, says WHO

    Official label of 'carcinogen' means exhaust emissions should be treated in same league as passive smoking or UV radiation.

    Diesel exhaust causes cancer, the World Health Organisation has declared, a ruling it said could make exhaust as important a public health threat as passive smoke.

    The risk of getting cancer from diesel fumes is small, but since so many people breathe in the fumes in some way, the WHO's science panel said raising the status of diesel exhaust to carcinogen from "probable carcinogen" was an important shift.

    "It's on the same order of magnitude as passive smoking," said Kurt Straif, director of the IARC department that evaluates cancer risks, on Tuesday. "This could be another big push for countries to clean up exhaust from diesel engines."

    http://www.un.org/apps/news/story.asp?NewsID=42204&Cr=cancer&Cr1#.VBXSVpQ7t8E

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ktnbcsSOi9k


    322216.jpg


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    #43
    KevR
    Registered Users Posts: 3,110 ✭✭✭KevR


    Iwannahurl wrote: »
    Several more illusions in there.

    In your opinion.


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    #44
    KevR
    Registered Users Posts: 3,110 ✭✭✭KevR


    This is interesting:
    http://connachttribune.ie/salthill-silverstrand-coast-walk-moves-forward-103/
    Connacht Tribune wrote:
    City councillors are to be asked to set aside funding from the upcoming local authority budget for consultants to progress the proposed coastal walkway from Salthill to Silverstrand.

    Galway City Council has applied for a final foreshore licence to carry out work on the €7 million project – which has met with numerous delays over the past decade.

    A spokesperson for the local authority said that when the licence is approved tenders for the works can be advanced.

    The approval is required so that technical documentation can be drawn up for tenders for work on the walkway to be progressed.

    “It will be necessary to provide funding for such consultancy [work] in the 2015 budget,” a Council spokesperson said.

    The project will see the construction of scenic pathways and footbridges spanning the shoreline between the two tourist attractions, while protecting the coast against erosion.

    Galway West TD Brian Walsh said: “This is an important project from a number of perspectives. Firstly, a coastal protection scheme is urgently required to ensure that Silverstrand beach and Lough Rusheen are not lost to erosion.

    “But the scheme also represents a great opportunity to construct an important amenity and enhance the tourism value of areas west of the city. It’s a chance to maximise the potential of Salthill, Silverstrand, and the scenic area in between.

    “Environmental and engineering surveys have been carried out in the coastal area between Sailín and Silverstrand, which includes landmark drumlins at Knocknagoneen and Gentian Hill.

    “Erosion has caused significant damage to the geographical features and has left cliff faces at both locations in a dangerous condition. Remedial work will take place to make these areas safe as part of the project,” said Deputy Walsh.

    The Council’s application for a foreshore licence will now be assessed by the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine.

    “This is an important project with enormous positive potential for Galway, its residents, and its many visitors. I will be supporting this scheme every step of the way until its completion,” added the Fine Gael TD.

    An Environmental Impact Statement – carried out for the local authority in 2006 – found that without erosion prevention work, Silverstrand beach would be eradicated within 25 to 40 years, while the Knocknagoneen drumlin beside it would be cut off from the mainland.

    City councillors are to be asked to set aside funding from the upcoming local authority budget for consultants to progress the proposed coastal walkway from Salthill to Silverstrand.

    Galway City Council has applied for a final foreshore licence to carry out work on the €7 million project – which has met with numerous delays over the past decade.

    A spokesperson for the local authority said that when the licence is approved tenders for the works can be advanced.

    The approval is required so that technical documentation can be drawn up for tenders for work on the walkway to be progressed.

    “It will be necessary to provide funding for such consultancy [work] in the 2015 budget,” a Council spokesperson said.

    The project will see the construction of scenic pathways and footbridges spanning the shoreline between the two tourist attractions, while protecting the coast against erosion.

    Galway West TD Brian Walsh said: “This is an important project from a number of perspectives. Firstly, a coastal protection scheme is urgently required to ensure that Silverstrand beach and Lough Rusheen are not lost to erosion.

    “But the scheme also represents a great opportunity to construct an important amenity and enhance the tourism value of areas west of the city. It’s a chance to maximise the potential of Salthill, Silverstrand, and the scenic area in between.

    “Environmental and engineering surveys have been carried out in the coastal area between Sailín and Silverstrand, which includes landmark drumlins at Knocknagoneen and Gentian Hill.

    “Erosion has caused significant damage to the geographical features and has left cliff faces at both locations in a dangerous condition. Remedial work will take place to make these areas safe as part of the project,” said Deputy Walsh.

    The Council’s application for a foreshore licence will now be assessed by the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine.

    “This is an important project with enormous positive potential for Galway, its residents, and its many visitors. I will be supporting this scheme every step of the way until its completion,” added the Fine Gael TD.

    An Environmental Impact Statement – carried out for the local authority in 2006 – found that without erosion prevention work, Silverstrand beach would be eradicated within 25 to 40 years, while the Knocknagoneen drumlin beside it would be cut off from the mainland.


    Of course this will be great for recreational use but it's not exactly a major commuter route.

    Maybe it would be better to spend €7 million on developing cycling facilities along a major commuter route instead..


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    #45
    KevR
    Registered Users Posts: 3,110 ✭✭✭KevR


    Another even more ambitious one:
    http://connachttribune.ie/plans-advance-for-greenway-from-dublin-to-eyre-square-103/

    Great for tourism and the like.

    However, should the people who are lobbying for more people to ditch their car on daily commutes not be objecting to this and asking for the money to be redirected into developing cycling facilities along major urban commuter routes???


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    #46
    SeanW
    Registered Users Posts: 8,776 ✭✭✭SeanW


    Iwannahurl wrote: »
    http://www.un.org/apps/news/story.asp?NewsID=42204&Cr=cancer&Cr1#.VBXSVpQ7t8E

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ktnbcsSOi9k


    322216.jpg
    Well shiver me timbers. Car fumes are unhealthy. Whoda thunk it?

    Thing is, society allows this because the benefits of allowing people to go from anywhere, to anywhere, at any time, outweigh the harm.

    You should also be aware that the changes in car sales were induced by the government - because of the anthropogenic climate change bogeyman the government reduced tax on diesel cars that used less fuel and made less CO2 - SURPRISE people bought diesel cars!

    Because the regulation on diesel cars had increased so much in the run up to 2008, many of those turned out to be bad-buys, because with all the anti-pollution devices in newer diesels, they are not suitable for anything other than fast long journeys. Even at that, the maintenance of these devices, Diesel Particulate Filters in particular, frequently imposes a 4 figure sum of repair costs on the owner.


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    #47
    goalscoringhero
    Registered Users Posts: 148 ✭✭goalscoringhero


    Personally, if I have the choice to commute (cycle) the most direct way to work or on a slight detour away from traffic and with nice scenery, I'd take the latter option. I already do so on a daily basis where I choose to go along the coast road over the dual carriageway, which adds approx 1-2 km to my journey (roughly 5 minuets).

    I never understood why people make the distinction between commuters and tourists when talking about cycling. Both are not mutually exclusive.

    While I suppose more could and should be done to accommodate cyclists along major existing road infrastructure, it's probably a good idea to start with a clean sheet like a greenway.

    KevR wrote: »
    Great for tourism and the like.

    However, should the people who are lobbying for more people to ditch their car on daily commutes not be objecting to this and asking for the money to be redirected into developing cycling facilities along major urban commuter routes???


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    #48
    KevR
    Registered Users Posts: 3,110 ✭✭✭KevR


    goalscoringhero wrote: »
    While I suppose more could and should be done to accommodate cyclists along major existing road infrastructure, it's probably a good idea to start with a clean sheet like a greenway.

    The original post in this thread suggests that the Galway Bypass is not necessary and that the traffic problems can be solved if people stop doing short-hop daily commutes by car, with cycling being one of the main potential alternatives.

    A costly cycle greenway between Galway and Dublin will do very little* to reduce congestion in Galway City. Surely we should be criss-crossing Galway City in every direction with excellent cycle facilities as opposed to building a greenway from Galway to Dublin.

    I'm not against the greenway at all. However, if there is strong enough evidence that Galway's traffic problems will reduce significantly with good quality cycle facilities, then we should surely prioritize cycle facilities in the city over the greenway.

    Maybe the evidence is just too weak?

    * the route from Eyre Square to the Eastern edge of Galway will provide some benefit.


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    #49
    Iwannahurl
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,156 ✭✭✭Iwannahurl


    KevR wrote: »
    The original post in this thread suggests that the Galway Bypass is not necessary and that the traffic problems can be solved if people stop doing short-hop daily commutes by car, with cycling being one of the main potential alternatives.


    I'm not going to revisit the bypass arguments in this thread, but if you read carefully through the thread I linked earlier you will see that many of the points made in favour of the Galway "outer bypass" (mainly desired as a ring road for commuters, if truth be told) can be readily refuted.

    One of the arguments made in that thread was "why would anyone own a car and not want to use it", the point being that car use is a natural consequence of car ownership, which is why €300 million for car-facilitating infrastructure is inherently justified.

    That reminds me of another illusion: that car use is made so expensive as to be punitive. And yet there they all are, paying through the nose for depreciation, insurance, Motor Tax, fuel, NCT, servicing and whatever else, on a vehicle used to transport Johnny and Mary (or just the car owner) down the road each day even just for short journeys of 4 km or less.

    I had to go round the corner several weeks ago to bring my child home from the local green area for dinner and bedtime. Another parent, who lives closer to the green than I do, actually drove less than 250 metres to pick up a child, in order to avoid a walk of 5 minutes in total. But sure, why would anyone own a car and not want to use it...


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    #50
    goalscoringhero
    Registered Users Posts: 148 ✭✭goalscoringhero


    KevR wrote: »
    I'm not against the greenway at all. However, if there is strong enough evidence that Galway's traffic problems will reduce significantly with good quality cycle facilities, then we should surely prioritize cycle facilities in the city over the greenway.

    The proposed Galway-Dublin greenway would - but I can only speculate this - bring benefits to other areas than Galway only.
    The highlighted passage of your post suggests that Galway would have more of a say than anyone else along that route. But that's not the case - it is being developed under the NTA / NRA umbrella [1]. Therefore, it is unlikely that Galway's traffic problems will find prime consideration when going forward with the scheme.

    The main point of the OP is, as far as I understand, to examine and challenge our own myths that make us believe we have to use the car to do our daily commute or other short runs.

    [1] http://www.dttas.ie/press-releases/2014/latest-section-dublin-galway-coast-coast-greenway-opens-varadkar


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