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Crazy traffic due to ridiculous DART level crossing timing

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  • 21-11-2013 5:11pm
    #1
    Zascar
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Music Moderators Posts: 12,778 Mod ✭✭✭✭


    Does anyone else think that the amount of time the gates go down at level crossings before a train comes is way too long? I’m sure we’ve all at some stage (or daily for many) sit in long lines of traffic when the gates are down, no train in sight – wasting time and petrol. Every day I cross the tracks around the area of Merrion Gates and Sydney Parade. Every morning and evening there is miles of backed up traffic waiting – with no trains in sight for ages. It drives me nuts how often you sit in backed up traffic for 20 minutes, eventually get to the gates, wait for about 5 minutes for the train to pass – then the gates go up for just a few seconds, letting only a few cars through – and then shoot down again. Then we wait what seems like another 5 minutes for another train to go by - possibly for the same thing to happen again.

    Ok now I know we have to take level crossing safety into account – but am I the only one who thinks this is total overkill? So I stand to be corrected but I believe the rule is that when a train gets within a certain distance of a station either side of the crossing, the gates have to go down. Around Booterstown/Merrion/Sydney Parade (and I’m sure many places too) the stations are very close together so when the train gets to either of the startions either side, we end of waiting. This means that at peak times the crossing stay closed for most of the time – for the few seconds that trains actually go by. It seems crazy to me that they don’t care about creating gridlock on the roads – and can’t possibly make it any better. The traffic backs up for a mile on the Strand Road every evening and I’m sure many other areas get jammed up too.

    So obviously the timing is there to make sure no one gets stuck in the middle and ploughed out of it by a train. But do they really need this amount of time? Can they not use technology to make this better? i.e. Half the stupidly long waiting times, but have cameras at the junction so that if anyone does get stuck, all nearby train drivers are immediately notified and the trains can stop in plenty of time. I just don’t see why the entire population has to be inconvenienced to lower the risk of someone getting a Darwin award.

    Rant over. But will this ever get any better?


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    #2
    Dravokivich
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Music Moderators, Politics Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 22,360 CMod ✭✭✭✭Dravokivich


    I think the time is fine. Whenever anyone is driving by my way, I always give'em directions to skip the crossings. If they were shorter, trains wouldn't have enough time to slowdown if someone was caught between them.

    They are so short in the UK and there's always articles about people rushing through the crossings, right before a train is due.


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    #3
    Alun
    Registered Users Posts: 21,436 ✭✭✭✭Alun


    You see this at Bray too. It seems to me from casual observation (and I am open to being corrected on this) that whenever a train is a certain distance from the crossing, and heading in the direction of the crossing then the gates come down. Now this is OK when the trains are moving, as I'm sure there's an agreed safe distance to allow for eventual malfunctions and idiots breaking the lights so as the train can stop safely in time if needed. But, and this is where I'm not sure, it seems that if a train has come in from Dublin and then is set to head back again rather than continuing to Greystones, usually 5 mins or more later, that the gates stay down all this time as well, even though the train is stopped dead at the platform.


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    #4
    Zascar
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Music Moderators Posts: 12,778 Mod ✭✭✭✭Zascar


    Dravokivich wrote: »
    I think the time is fine. Whenever anyone is driving by my way, I always give'em directions to skip the crossings. If they were shorter, trains wouldn't have enough time to slowdown if someone was caught between them.

    If the times are fine then why would they need to skip?

    Mostly when I see the train go by (at my stops at least) they are traveling pretty slowly. Once in a while an inter city train will whizz by - but the others have only come from a station 500m up the road so have only begun accelerating. The rules should allow for this.
    Dravokivich wrote: »
    They are so short in the UK and there's always articles about people rushing through the crossings, right before a train is due.
    Again, darwin awards. However many of the level crossing in the UK only have piddly little carpark style barriers you can literally drive around - not the huge ones we have.


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    #5
    Seaswimmer
    Registered Users Posts: 1,986 ✭✭✭Seaswimmer


    I think the traffic backs up on Strand road because of the delay in joining Merrion Road after the level crossing and not because the level crossing is closed for extended periods of time. However I notice from cycling across Merrion gates twice a day that it appears that the level crossing goes down as the train prepares to leave the stations. There often there seems to be 2 trains crossing in opposite directions there as well regularly so I think Merrion gates in particular is probably the worst on the Dart line anyway..

    Not sure what the solution is though except to cross the line nearer town under one of the bridges and not to cross at level crossings.


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    #6
    Calina
    Registered Users Posts: 8,219 ✭✭✭Calina


    Declaration of interest: I drive.

    The DARTS, like the buses, take a lot more passengers than the average car. So typically, I'm not against the DARTs having priority above cars when it comes to level crossings

    With respect to the gaps, given the rank stupidity and selfishness I see every, single, day at traffic lights with red lights being run on pretty much every light change, I'm afraid I don't actually trust drivers to look after their own interests in this respect.

    In an ideal world, we would work to reduce the number of locations where the rail and road systems intersect. I'm not sure how feasible this is with the DART lines.


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    #7
    corktina
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,733 ✭✭✭✭corktina


    the problem is this: for safety , the gates have to be guaranteed shut before the train can be signalled into
    the section and obviously the signal has to be far enough from the crossing to allow the train to stop at it without coming into the "safety zone" between the signal and the gates should there be a malfunction.

    The alternative is a risk of a train not stopping when it should and ploughing through a line of traffic


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    #8
    Sierra Oscar
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 8,467 CMod ✭✭✭✭Sierra Oscar


    I am fairly sure that this happens because the sensors are based on the distance a train is from the gates and does not take into account the speed of the train / how long it will take to reach the gates. A commuter train that stops at Connolly / Pearse travels at a much faster speed along that rail section as compared to a DART in my experience. Therefore the gates close 'early' to make sure that safety is not compromised when a commuter train is on the line.


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    #9
    bikeman1
    Registered Users Posts: 1,263 ✭✭✭bikeman1


    Thankfully the railways were here before cars, so they have the right of way. As with a lot of things, from a distance it seems that the system is overkill, but it is for a good reason - safety.

    To turn it the other way, I have been on the DART waiting at a red signal for the gates to come down and for us to proceed. This is probably 600 people being held up for a few cars who insist on clogging up the road with just one person in them, instead of using public transport or cycling.

    Public Transport, pedistrians and cyclists should have priorty in all areas of the city, to deter people from using their cars and clogging up the city.


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    #10
    AlekSmart
    Registered Users Posts: 14,005 ✭✭✭✭AlekSmart


    At this point in the 21st Century,we should have long ago adapted William Dargans magnificent railway to sit more easily with the horseless carriage.

    Over the past two decades I'm convinced a relatively modest investment in engineering some form of Grade Seperation could well have been carried out,if anybody had shown a bit of interest.

    When one looks at the relative simplicity of the problem,the lack of interest has to be put down to laziness,negligence or perhaps both.

    Yet,for example,all over Dublin we are currently seeing a frenzy of Road Resurfacing work,often in locations which were perfectly acceptable,with,it seems,the only target being the spending of a specific budget before the end of the financial year.

    Locations such as Roebuck Road Clonskeagh,where several weeks of excavations resulted in just a length of heightened kerbing to keep the Muslim Faithful from parking on the Grass Verges opposite the mosque,whilst the Local Authority allowed a very significant opportunity to install a short,but potentially beneficial stretch of Bus Lane between Roebuck Road and Bird Avenue.

    Did any Local Authority Luminary even bother their ass to look at the situation here..?...I doubt it,as the Kerbing and scutch-grass was reinstated almost exactly to the millimetre...I see it as little more than vanity-work..to keep some accountant happy,whilst the Great-Unwashed do as they always do...Put up with it..?

    None of these projects should get the go-ahead until some form of audit is available to show the G-U exactly what benefit will accrue from such works....:mad:


    Men, it has been well said, think in herds; it will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, and one by one.

    Charles Mackay (1812-1889)



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    #11
    Dravokivich
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Music Moderators, Politics Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 22,360 CMod ✭✭✭✭Dravokivich


    Zascar wrote: »
    If the times are fine then why would they need to skip?

    Mostly when I see the train go by (at my stops at least) they are traveling pretty slowly. Once in a while an inter city train will whizz by - but the others have only come from a station 500m up the road so have only begun accelerating. The rules should allow for this.

    2 reasons really.

    - It's not actually a main road to get from one side of D15 to another.
    - Also, when trains are going along that section of the line it seems to be the area where they are passing through in opposite directions at the same time.

    And your reference to the speed is a bit off. Something as big as a train doesn't need to go too fast to damage something and pose as a risk to killing someone.
    Zascar wrote: »
    Again, darwin awards. However many of the level crossing in the UK only have piddly little carpark style barriers you can literally drive around - not the huge ones we have.

    And in Germany they don't seem to use them at all. As far as I noticed in rural areas. But sure a lot of that is down to a difference in attitude.


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    #12
    Alun
    Registered Users Posts: 21,436 ✭✭✭✭Alun


    Dravokivich wrote: »
    And in Germany they don't seem to use them at all. As far as I noticed in rural areas. But sure a lot of that is down to a difference in attitude.
    Not really ...

    https://www.google.com/search?q=Bahn%C3%BCbergang&safe=off&client=firefox-a&hs=wIZ&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&channel=rcs&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=oj2OUoO5Ms7Q7Aag94AQ&ved=0CE8QsAQ&biw=1280&bih=871


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    #13
    Dravokivich
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Music Moderators, Politics Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 22,360 CMod ✭✭✭✭Dravokivich


    Alun wrote: »
    Not really ...

    https://www.google.com/search?q=Bahn%C3%BCbergang&safe=off&client=firefox-a&hs=wIZ&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&channel=rcs&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=oj2OUoO5Ms7Q7Aag94AQ&ved=0CE8QsAQ&biw=1280&bih=871

    Well were I was staying, didnt have any.

    Edit:
    Only had a chance to look through the link you posted, if you scroll down a bit you see this image:
    http://mw2.google.com/mw-panoramio/photos/medium/57439760.jpg

    It's an example of what I saw predominantly when I was over there.


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    #14
    Jamie2k9
    Registered Users Posts: 10,682 ✭✭✭✭Jamie2k9


    Dravokivich wrote: »
    And in Germany they don't seem to use them at all. As far as I noticed in rural areas. But sure a lot of that is down to a difference in attitude.

    and as a result Germany has had the second highest rate of people killed on railways there involving trains collisions.


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    #15
    Losty Dublin
    Registered Users Posts: 13,035 ✭✭✭✭Losty Dublin


    To make a relevant point, there is no set distance or a sensor at play for level crossings. Instead, it is all monitored by Irish Rail staff.

    The procedure is that when a train passes a nearby signal prior to approaching a level crossing, it will be closed, either automatically or by a staff member. Once the gate is closed, one of two things happens. Either a staff member off site will verify via CCTV that an automated gate is closed before upgrading a signal to allow the train to proceed or in the case of an manual gate, the staff member on hand will either upgrade the signal himself or give a signalman word to do so. As there is a fair bit going on, the waiting time can vary from 1-5 minutes; more if two trains are due in opposite directions.

    In the case of the D 4 area, some of the signals and closing patterns will cover 2 gates at once due to the crossings being close to each other; this has the effect of lessening delays to trains as well as keeping down the amount of signals in operation. On the down side, it means that somewhere such as Serpentine Avenue may seem to have a unduly long wait at times. Other crossings worldwide have an identical procedure to this so its not out of the ordinary though equally it's not standard by any means.

    Just to bear in mind the essential nature of needing some safety gap at crossings. A Mark 4 Dublin-Cork train travelling at 100MPH needs around 100 seconds to go from top speed to fully braked. In it's time braking, it travels about a mile and a quarter. Suburban trains need a lot less but toddling along at 40MPH they will still need about 30 seconds to come to a stop. These are the margins needed to stop in the event of emergency which is why they need to be generous.


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    #16
    HydeRoad
    Closed Accounts Posts: 495 ✭✭HydeRoad


    One afternoon a few months ago, there was the usual traffic jam southbound, either side of the Merrion Gates.

    I watched a woman in a large black SUV drive onto the yellow box within the gates, stop, unable to go further, then proceed to do a three point turn (indeed, I think it was a five point turn!) ON the railway crossing, before heading back northwards on the Strand Road.

    THIS, folks, is the standard of driving to be encountered on Dublin roads, and unfortunately, it is because of the blanket acceptance of absurd levels of driver uneducation and inadequacy, that the rest of us have to suffer extremes of inconvenience.


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    #17
    Tarabuses
    Registered Users Posts: 725 ✭✭✭Tarabuses


    The delays can be substantial at the Sandymout Avenue crossing too. This can adversely affect the 18 bus as well as other traffic. It doesn't make any sense to have roads crossing suburban railway lines on the level.

    Is there a rule that the gates must open at least once after two trains pass the crossing?


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    #18
    cython
    Registered Users Posts: 4,758 ✭✭✭cython


    Tarabuses wrote: »
    The delays can be substantial at the Sandymout Avenue crossing too. This can adversely affect the 18 bus as well as other traffic. It doesn't make any sense to have roads crossing suburban railway lines on the level.

    Is there a rule that the gates must open at least once after two trains pass the crossing?

    Nope. I was standing at the level crossing in Coolmine waiting for 3 to pass only yesterday evening - the westbound commuter to Maynooth I got off, a direct-to-Docklands eastbound service (which looked all but empty, and probably was empty, as the last service!), followed by a service outbound to M3 Parkway - so no such rule in existence.


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    #19
    ProudDUB
    Registered Users Posts: 11,569 ✭✭✭✭ProudDUB


    I live beside the Sutton Dart station. I drive down Station Rd several times a day & I take the Dart into town quite often. There is no way the barriers come down 5 minutes before the trains arrives. It is never more than a couple of minutes. I know this because when you are standing on the station platform, you can see from the clock in the station how far away the train is (time wise) when the barriers start to go down. The only time there is a delay in them going back up, is if there is another train expected soon after that is going in the opposite direction. That can be a real pain.

    Sutton doesn't get anyway near the amount of traffic that the Merrion Gates does. So while I can see why 5 minutes may be excessive, it may not be considering the greater risk of some idiot in a car doing something stupid to bypass traffic at the level crossing, as HydePark outlined above. That being said, I drive out to Blackrock at least once a week via the Merrion Gates. The wait at the gates has never struck me as being all that much longer, than what I experience daily in Sutton.


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    #20
    dowlingm
    Registered Users Posts: 5,323 ✭✭✭dowlingm


    Merrion Gates could be closed if Strand Road was extended, eliminating the slipway and rising via a new seawall over the line and intercepting Merrion Road at the existing Trimleston Avenue junction. Would be murder from the environmentalists though given the nearby Booterstown nature reserve and the incursion on the bay unless somebody came up with a really clever way to minimise impact, perhaps by making it a bridge end to end although that would not provide spray/flood protection to that section of the line than an embankment/seawall would. You could raise the line between Sydney Parade and Booterstown but that would bring an avalanche of lawsuits from those whose gardens would be on public view, subjected to increased noise plus there would be a bridge strike every so often.


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    #21
    Victor
    Registered Users Posts: 78,313 ✭✭✭✭Victor


    It may be that due to the current leaf fall season that times are increased. Also likely more people driving than walking/cycling/bussing than compared to the summer.


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    #22
    Seaswimmer
    Registered Users Posts: 1,986 ✭✭✭Seaswimmer


    Victor wrote: »
    It may be that due to the current leaf fall season that times are increased. Also likely more people driving than walking/cycling/bussing than compared to the summer.

    I had tn drive to work along the rock road and across merrion gates last Thursday. I normally cycle. How anybody can do it day after day is beyond me. I know some people have to drive for various reasons but surely for a lot of people the dart must be a better option. I suspect the availability of free company parking is an incentive for some but why spend that amount of time in your car 10 times a week when there are better alternatives


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    #23
    Jamie2k9
    Registered Users Posts: 10,682 ✭✭✭✭Jamie2k9


    LC gates normally close 2 minutes before the train arrives. People need to remember that the train needs clearance at least 2 signals before the actual crossings. If it doesn't get that the trains will have to slow and cause longer delays. Of course routes like intercity and possibly the commuter routes will require at least 3 signals before the crossings to be green other wise it will have to slow down speeds will be much higher than the Darts and braking longer.

    Crossings on the Cork route can remain closed for over 10 minutes at a time and that is when you see some very angry drivers.

    Victor
    It may be that due to the current leaf fall season that times are increased.

    Are we going down this road, the excuse of leaf fall when the lines are cleared nightly by track machines but then leafs seen to fall right away and everything is blamed on it. Leafs cause signal faults, train failures these days according to Irish Rail!


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    #24
    corktina
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,733 ✭✭✭✭corktina


    Jamie2k9 wrote: »
    LC gates normally close 2 minutes before the train arrives. People need to remember that the train needs clearance at least 2 signals before the actual crossings. If it doesn't get that the trains will have to slow and cause longer delays. Of course routes like intercity and possibly the commuter routes will require at least 3 signals before the crossings to be green other wise it will have to slow down speeds will be much higher than the Darts and braking longer.

    Crossings on the Cork route can remain closed for over 10 minutes at a time and that is when you see some very angry drivers.

    Victor



    Are we going down this road, the excuse of leaf fall when the lines are cleared nightly by track machines but then leafs seen to fall right away and everything is blamed on it. Leafs cause signal faults, train failures these days according to Irish Rail!

    it's not the leaves that are the problem, it's the mush they leave behind on the railhead making them greasy and with less adhesion if not sandited recently.


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    #25
    LXFlyer
    Registered Users Posts: 17,588 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    Victor wrote: »
    It may be that due to the current leaf fall season that times are increased. Also likely more people driving than walking/cycling/bussing than compared to the summer.
    Jamie2k9 wrote: »
    Are we going down this road, the excuse of leaf fall when the lines are cleared nightly by track machines but then leafs seen to fall right away and everything is blamed on it. Leafs cause signal faults, train failures these days according to Irish Rail!

    If the trains are having problems getting traction due to the mulch on the tracks, which despite the nightly sandite train they undoubtedly are, then Victor is absolutely right. The trains are going to take longer to get going from the stations and crossing barriers that are already down are going to be down longer.


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    #26
    Zascar
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Music Moderators Posts: 12,778 Mod ✭✭✭✭Zascar


    I appreciate some of the reasons which make sense - but I still wonder, could they not arrange the train times better so maybe two trains pass the junction at more or less the same time - to make things more efficient? Or have a minimum amount of time the gates are allowed to be open for before closing again? Honestly I'm sure I've seen them raise for about 10 seconds before closing again


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    #27
    LXFlyer
    Registered Users Posts: 17,588 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    The DART services are timed to maintain a 15 minute frequency all along the route between Howth Junction and Bray - to expect them to be timing them to pass at a particular level crossing is I think pushing things to be honest.


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    #28
    ProudDUB
    Registered Users Posts: 11,569 ✭✭✭✭ProudDUB


    Seaswimmer wrote: »
    I had tn drive to work along the rock road and across merrion gates last Thursday. I normally cycle. How anybody can do it day after day is beyond me. I know some people have to drive for various reasons but surely for a lot of people the dart must be a better option. I suspect the availability of free company parking is an incentive for some but why spend that amount of time in your car 10 times a week when there are better alternatives

    I doubt it. An awful lot of people live and work no where near a Dart station. Just because people are using the coast road to get to where ever they are going, it doesn't necessarily mean that the start or end points of their journeys are anywhere near a Dart station. So they are looking at at long walks in the cold and rain to get from their jobs/houses to the stations. Not everyone is willing to do that. Dublin is reasonably well served by trains and buses that go on a purely North South trajectory. It is very badly served by buses that go on an east/west route to get people to/from the inland housing estates, shopping centers, office parks, schools etc etc to/from the Dart stations.

    Dart stations are also very badly served by park and ride facilities. The traffic to get to them (often caused by the barriers being down a lot due to the frequency of peak time trains) can be a real battle in the morning. So is the scramble to find a parking space before they all fill up. The Clontarf Road one in particular has a bad reputation for people leaving their cars there and taking the shuttle bus to East Point Business Park, leaving very few spaces for people who want to take the actual Dart. That is a further disincentive to take the Dart.


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    #29
    Jamie2k9
    Registered Users Posts: 10,682 ✭✭✭✭Jamie2k9


    lxflyer wrote: »
    If the trains are having problems getting traction due to the mulch on the tracks, which despite the nightly sandite train they undoubtedly are, then Victor is absolutely right. The trains are going to take longer to get going from the stations and crossing barriers that are already down are going to be down longer.

    Its a small problem, IE take the p*** every single year and of course no one single delay this time of year is anything other than leafs. It's not as big as IE make it out to be what so ever.

    It's great when NI railways do some planning and only 0.5% of trains are affected by leafs while down here its 100%. It's all excuses excuses with IE, leaf fall is just a way to cover up problems that happen every single day but this time of year they think the pill is much easier to swallow for passengers when in fact just about everybody can see through the lies.

    https://www.translink.co.uk/Latest-News/Leaf-predictor-tool-helps-keep-Translink-NI-Railways-services-on-track-for-best-Autumn-performance/

    IE seem unable to operate in any sort of weather conditions when it comes to the DART. Everyday its failure after failure, signal fault after signal fault.


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    #30
    LXFlyer
    Registered Users Posts: 17,588 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    Jamie2k9 wrote: »
    Its a small problem, IE take the p*** every single year and of course no one single delay this time of year is anything other than leafs. It's not as big as IE make it out to be what so ever.

    It's great when NI railways do some planning and only 0.5% of trains are affected by leafs while down here its 100%. It's all excuses excuses with IE, leaf fall is just a way to cover up problems that happen every single day but this time of year they think the pill is much easier to swallow for passengers when in fact just about everybody can see through the lies.

    https://www.translink.co.uk/Latest-News/Leaf-predictor-tool-helps-keep-Translink-NI-Railways-services-on-track-for-best-Autumn-performance/

    IE seem unable to operate in any sort of weather conditions when it comes to the DART. Everyday its failure after failure, signal fault after signal fault.

    I'm not saying that there aren't other problems, of course there can be, but clearly it is an issue and the mulch left by the leaves do cause a problem. Why it is a bigger issue here than in NI, I don't know.

    What both Victor and I are both saying is that if trains are having problems gaining traction, then it is quite likely that barriers would be down longer. That's pretty obviously going to be the case.


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    #31
    RustyNut
    Registered Users Posts: 3,430 ✭✭✭RustyNut


    Car drivers just need to accept that they are not at the top of the transport food chain. They are at best equal with other road users but rail takes priority. Safety first, just suck it up folks.


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