Busting the "3 km/h over the speed limit" myth

Riskymove · 24-10-2013 12:49pm

djimi wrote: »

I would lay money that the majority, if not all, of those 8000 were in excess of 6km/h over the limit.

and maybe you'd be right

but the stats don't answer it for us

aisr1ofk43dpy5 · 24-10-2013 12:50pm

Is there any evidence of deaths caused by drivers been 1 to 9 kmph over the limit. The real killer is stupid and dangerous overtaking but this will never be caught on camera.

wonski · 24-10-2013 12:52pm

Kassidy Shrilling Overlap wrote: »

Is there any evidence of deaths caused by drivers been 1 to 9 kmph over the limit. The real killer is stupid and dangerous overtaking but this will never be caught on camera.

The line has to be drawn somewhere. If you let people go 9 km/h over, then they would complain they were done for another 1-2 over that limit.
Rules are simple, never heard of someone caught doing 61km/h in 60 zone. Not saying it doesn't happen, but never heard of this.

Riskymove · 24-10-2013 12:56pm

wonski wrote: »

The line has to be drawn somewhere.

this gets to the heart of the actual complaints people make

at the end of the day people know they were over the limit be it 2km/h or 9 km/h

what seems to annoy people (other than that they were caught;)) is the view that they were done in particular circumstances - e.g. good weather, dual carraigeway, little other traffic etc

while there does not seem to be any similar efforts to police back roads or really dangerous driving etc.

this may or may not be accurate but I think its the common complaint imo

SpaceTime · 24-10-2013 12:59pm

They need more speed traps on narrow single carriage way N-Routes.

I regularly see them on motorway but rarely on those kinds of routes.

Iwannahurl · 24-10-2013 1:02pm

pippip wrote: »

There's more to this bit I'd say. Out of the 8k in this group I'd say they are all between 5-9kph. I'd say its more to do with that they cannot have the stats showing they have any tolerance above the official limit.

The fact that nobody on here in the years and years this has been discussed has ever been able to produce a photo of a ticket showing prosecution speaks for itself.

Let's assume for the sake of argument that the 1-9 category (n = 8237) can be divided into three sub-categories, with an equal number of detections in each.

That would give us 2745 (2%) detections in each of the three sub-categories of 1-3, 4-6 and 7-9 km/h over the limit.

While it can be argued that 1-6 km/h above the limit in any zone is a very minor offence, 4% is still a minuscule proportion compared to the 94% doing 10 km/h or more above the limit.

Riskymove · 24-10-2013 1:04pm

Iwannahurl wrote: »

While it can be argued that 1-6 km/h above the limit in any zone is a very minor offence, 4% is still a minuscule proportion compared to the 94% doing 10 km/h or more above the limit.

you remain fixated on this point

the proportion does nothing to dispel the "myth" you talk about

the only thing that will do that is if we see how many are done for , let's say 1-5km/h

then we'll know the truth of it

Iwannahurl · 24-10-2013 1:07pm

Riskymove wrote: »

it is also worth noting that the second badn is twice as wide as the first

why not 1-9, 10-19 and 20-29..etc....

you can easily spin such stats

Journal.ie will have received all the stats, including graphs, with the Garda press release.

aisr1ofk43dpy5 · 24-10-2013 1:08pm

I understand there has to be a line drawn and anything that makes us think and slow down is a good thing. Having said that i know stretches of road where really stupid overtaking goes on because the drivers know they are about to enter a speed van area and are attempting to make time while they can. I also know a 15 mile stretch of road between two towns where theres been many accidents and fatalities which is not a speed van area but where the road widens and becomes a 60kmph as you near one of the towns it becomes a speed van area. The like of this is what makes people dubious about the whole thing.

Iwannahurl · 24-10-2013 1:09pm

Riskymove wrote: »

you remain fixated on this point

the proportion does nothing to dispel the "myth" you talk about

the only thing that will do that is if we see how many are done for , let's say 1-5km/h

then we'll know the truth of it

It can't be more than six out of every hundred detections, and is most likely a lot less.

No amount of rejigging the numbers will change that.

EDIT: I can now say with absolute certainty that the Garda figures will show all 6% to be in the 5-9 category.

Riskymove · 24-10-2013 1:11pm

Iwannahurl wrote: »

Journal.ie will have received all the stats, including graphs, with the Garda press release.

thanks I had a look at the press release and its interesting alright

someone doing 109km/h down the Quays in Dublin City Centre??:eek:

Riskymove · 24-10-2013 1:13pm

Iwannahurl wrote: »

EDIT: I can now say with absolute certainty that the Garda figures will show all 6% to be in the 5-9 category.

well then that will dispel your myth alright

The Bishop Basher · 24-10-2013 1:14pm

Iwannahurl wrote: »

Data = evidence, as per the Garda stats quoted above.

What "overwhelming evidence" are you referring to? Facts please, not opinion, supposition, assumptions or other unsubstantiated claims.

So are you saying the speed trap locations have nothing to do with revenue generation as opposed to saving lives ?

Well here's a couple of obvious examples i can think of in my area....accident data is from the RSA...

The R118 between the M50 and the CWD roundabout. Go safe vans are regularly parked on both sides of the road and a traffic cop on a motorcycle is often parked up by the roundabout catching people heading down towards CWD. The speed limit is 60kph. There have been no serious incidents or fatalities however the Wyatville Road has had both. I have yet to see a go safe van on the Wyatville road and I drive it every day.

http://maps.google.ie/maps?q=Cherryw...87.76,,0,-0.47

The southern Cross Rd in Bray. Speed limit is 80kph. Again, a GoSafe van is regularly parked on the east bound side and AGS are often hidden in an entrance to an estate on the Eastern end of the road. Again no serious incidents or fatalities here however unfortunately both have occurred on surrounding roads.

http://maps.google.ie/maps?q=Cherryw...7,,0,7.05&z=12

Interslice · 24-10-2013 1:16pm

Iwannahurl wrote: »

Let's assume for the sake of argument that the 1-9 category (n = 8237) can be divided into three sub-categories, with an equal number of detections in each.

That would give us 2745 (2%) detections in each of the three sub-categories of 1-3, 4-6 and 7-9 km/h over the limit.

While it can be argued that 1-6 km/h above the limit in any zone is a very minor offence, 4% is still a minuscule proportion compared to the 94% doing 10 km/h or more above the limit.

Ah heyor. If 100% of irish people are under 8 foot tall and you apply your methods that meams 20% are over 6.4 foot tall. Get up out of it. You've busted nothing.

Atomic Pineapple · 24-10-2013 1:18pm

djimi wrote: »

Seriously, what instructor was feeding you that nonsense? Sticking to the speed limit will fail you your driving test? Come off it...

I too was told this but I done my test just over 10 years ago, back when there was a bit of common sense used, if it was safe to do so you could break the speed limit and you would get docked marks if you failed to progress.

This is because I was taught to drive to the conditions at the time, a single static speed limit cannot govern a dynamically changing road let alone when adding in dynamically changing weather, traffic and surface condition, so you were tested on your ability to slow down when the conditions required you to do so and speed up when they allowed you to.

Iwannahurl · 24-10-2013 1:18pm

Swanner wrote: »

So are you saying the speed trap locations have nothing to do with revenue generation as opposed to saving lives ?

I'm saying you have no such "overwhelming evidence".

Padraig Mor · 24-10-2013 1:24pm

The usual twisted logic from IWH, distorting reality to suit his (her?) agenda.

I don't believe it's a particularly common belief that hordes of motorists are being 'done' for being marginally over the limit. In fact, a quick glance over the many previous threads will show you the common belief in Motors that you can be quite a bit over the limit before a Garda will issue a penalty. The Boards 'speeding rule of thumb' for 120 k/h sections of road is that you won't be stopped by a Garda up to 140 k/h; you'll get the standard penalty for 140 - 160, and you'll be hammered for being over 160. All subject to variation of course; there have been a number of cases described where people were only given the standard penalty for speeds of 180+ k/h where the Garda felt that that speed did not constitute dangerous driving under the circumstances at the time. There is less room for discretion with the Go Safe vans (obviously) but I am aware of unpublished guidelines allowing motorists be circa 10% over the limit before receiving a penalty.

The main beliefs I've come across in Boards re speed checks are as follows.

1. They are a revenue generator. Personally, I don't believe this. AFAIK they are actually loss making, all considered.

2. They are not located where they need to be, instead targetted at "fish in a barrel" locations. While many black spots are inherently unsafe to set up a speed trap at, it certainly seems that many speed traps are placed where numbers can be clocked up easily.

3. Speed traps do not represent a holistic approach to road safety. They are a quick fix, easy option to make it look like something is being done. The obsession in many quarters with 'speeding' promotes the belief that driving below the limit is the only necessity for safe driving. This is manifestly untrue. True road safety requires the enforcement of ALL laws equally, not those which are simply easy. I, and many others here I'm sure, have no objection to speed traps. What I object to is the notion that they represent a comprehensive approach to road safety.

4. The RSA, Gardai, media, and certain other obsessives repeatedly misrepresent, distort, and outright lie about road safety data. Driving in excess of the speed limit is the primary cause of only a tiny fraction of our road deaths, yet the data is misrepresented as showing speeding is one of the primary causes of deaths on our roads. It's not; it's the least of our worries TBH.

endacl · 24-10-2013 1:54pm

I was one of those caught at 63kph in a 60kph zone. I was only speeding a bit, but I was speeding. Fair cop, no whinge. Paid the fine and the points will be gone in a few more months. What's this thread about?

The Bishop Basher · 24-10-2013 2:10pm

Iwannahurl wrote: »

I'm saying you have no such "overwhelming evidence".

I posted evidence above but it's clear that you'll just discount or ignore anything that doesn't tie in with your myth busting agenda.

I'll leave you at it.

Riskymove · 24-10-2013 2:13pm

endacl wrote: »

I was one of those caught at 63kph in a 60kph zone. I was only speeding a bit, but I was speeding. Fair cop, no whinge. Paid the fine and the points will be gone in a few more months. What's this thread about?

that what you claim, did not infact happen

therefore you are lying:pac:

jimgoose · 24-10-2013 2:32pm

Under EU type-approval, speedometers are allowed to read high by 10% plus 4 km/h for cars, and plus 8 km/h for motorcycles and three-wheelers. And you'll find most of 'em are calibrated nice and high so the manufacturer doesn't have to put up with a load of horsesh!t lawsuits about speeding fines. Where that leaves the Gardaí's enforcement equipment I couldn't say!

Henry Ford III · 24-10-2013 2:34pm

Red Kev wrote: »

Why is she wearing y fronts? Packing heat? :eek:

skimpydoo · 24-10-2013 3:51pm

Henry Ford III wrote: »

Why is she wearing y fronts? Packing heat? :eek:

Maybe a transformer;) She is a he in disguise:eek:

farna_boy · 24-10-2013 6:07pm

Iwannahurl wrote: »

An Garda Siochana have released data showing that they issued 140,000 fixed charged notices for speeding between January and September of this year.

http://www.thejournal.ie/speeding-bank-holiday-weekend-1144159-Oct2013/

Of particular value, in my opinion, is the data showing the percentage of detections according to different levels of speeding.

A common myth, on Boards and elsewhere, is that hordes of motorists are being unfairly nabbed for being just a few km over the speed limit, thereby revealing the true purpose of speed surveillance, which is to extract as much extra revenue as possible from otherwise careful, considerate and hard-pressed motorists.

I'm not inclined to believe that story, and I think these stats show the real situation.
6% (8,237) of detections were of speeds 1-9 km/h above the speed limit in the zone.

80% of detections (111,044) were 10-29 km/h above the limit.

14% (19,302) detections were for speeds 30 km/h or more above the limit.

So that means 94% of speeding offences recorded by AGS are for speeds 10 km/h or more above the limit, ie 60+ in a 50 zone, 90+ in an 80 zone and so on.

Myth busted.

To be honest, I have never heard of this myth before reading this post. However, it is far more likely that someone will complain, on boards or other forums, about only being a few km/h over rather than say 20 km/h.

Furthermore, the population of the Motors forum of boards is not an accurate representation of the motoring population of the country.

For example, in the past year, there have been at least 40 threads about a car being stolen. Assuming the population of the Motors forum is about 2000, that would mean in Ireland 90000 cars were stolen last year. Looking at CSO figures for 2007 & 2011 the amount of cars that were reported stolen in both those years were 13570 and 10,385 respectively. Now unless there has been i a massive increase in two years, I doubt the derived number is accurate.

Iwannahurl wrote: »

Let's assume for the sake of argument that the 1-9 category (n = 8237) can be divided into three sub-categories, with an equal number of detections in each.

That would give us 2745 (2%) detections in each of the three sub-categories of 1-3, 4-6 and 7-9 km/h over the limit.

While it can be argued that 1-6 km/h above the limit in any zone is a very minor offence, 4% is still a minuscule proportion compared to the 94% doing 10 km/h or more above the limit.

You can't assume that and you definitely can't divide the number into three equal parts. That's equivalent to saying that when Calvin Harris played in Oxegen and say he had 60,000 people watching him, assuming the oldest person there was 60 and the youngest was 15, there were approximately 20,000 people between 45-60 there watching him.

AugustusMinimus · 24-10-2013 7:02pm

OP's post proves exactly nothing of which it is claiming to prove.

ofcork · 24-10-2013 7:03pm

What about the 1172 doing more than 50km/h above the limit and someone doing over 200.

Honey-ec · 24-10-2013 7:44pm

Iwannahurl wrote: »

6% (8,237) of detections were of speeds 1-9 km/h above the speed limit in the zone.

That's a fairly useless piece of information without knowing what the actual speed limits were at those locations.

9 kmh over the limit if the limit is 120kmh is a different kettle of fish to 9 kmh over the limit on the 30kmh stretch of the quays.

They'd be better off posting the percentage people were over the limit by than absolute figures.

Victor · 24-10-2013 8:29pm

The press release: http://garda.ie/Controller.aspx?Page=12059&Lang=1

Realise that in some places doing the speed limit is downright dangerous, so fining someone for doing 1km/h more is appropriate. Speed limit 80km/h https://maps.google.ie/?ll=53.43416,-6.404045&spn=0.010048,0.030556&t=m&z=15&layer=c&cbll=53.43416,-6.404045&panoid=Bt0EaHUgSqlgZmu9vf664Q&cbp=12,35.99,,0,4.25

Swanner wrote: »

The R118 between the M50 and the CWD roundabout. Go safe vans are regularly parked on both sides of the road and a traffic cop on a motorcycle is often parked up by the roundabout catching people heading down towards CWD. The speed limit is 60kph. There have been no serious incidents or fatalities however the Wyatville Road has had both. I have yet to see a go safe van on the Wyatville road and I drive it every day.

http://maps.google.ie/maps?q=Cherryw...87.76,,0,-0.47

Your link is broken.

What is the "CWD roundabout"?

visual · 24-10-2013 8:29pm

djimi wrote: »

Seriously, what instructor was feeding you that nonsense? Sticking to the speed limit will fail you your driving test? Come off it...

I was also given this advice to avoid being a obstruction in fast moving traffic or considered not being progressive driver. This was before a radio and tv host became head of RSA.

flashforward · 24-10-2013 8:32pm

Anyone know what happens when you break the limit by an excessive amount?
Is it just the standard 2points + fine or are there bands that if broken you can be done for more?

160+ in a 120 zone?
120+ in a 80?
etc.

What would excess would lead to losing a license?

Is there any official info on this or is it down to a judge/guard?

Busting the "3 km/h over the speed limit" myth

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