M6 - Galway City Ring Road [planning decision pending]

antoobrien · 11-04-2013 1:28pm

serfboard wrote: »

Continuing the much-unlamented (from the Dail) Frank Fahy's schtick that conveniently forgets that the part as far as Moycullen Road (including the bridge) could be built already ... but there ain't no money for it!

Unfortunately that's not true, the case was against this section, as ABP had rejected the western section for among other reasons the route being too close to SACs

serfboard · 11-04-2013 1:59pm

antoobrien wrote: »

Unfortunately that's not true, the case was against this section, as ABP had rejected the western section for among other reasons the route being too close to SACs

Oops !

Corrected now ...

antoobrien · 11-04-2013 2:10pm

serfboard wrote: »

Oops !

Corrected now ...

No worries it's a common source of confusion.

How anyone thinks that limestone is in short supply in Co. Galway through....

Sponge Bob · 11-04-2013 2:55pm

antoobrien wrote: »

No worries it's a common source of confusion.

To make it even more confusing the western section was not rejected because of proximity to a SAC. Surely you mean an NHA.

antoobrien · 11-04-2013 3:39pm

Sponge Bob wrote: »

To make it even more confusing the western section was not rejected because of proximity to a SAC. Surely you mean an NHA.

You're right the weed that blocked it is growing in an NHA.

spacetweek · 11-04-2013 3:49pm

antoobrien wrote: »

You're right the weed that blocked it is growing in an NHA.

I thought it was a snail? :P

Why did the British comment on the case? I wonder who asked them.

antoobrien · 11-04-2013 4:08pm

spacetweek wrote: »

I thought it was a snail? :P

No that was greg norman's golf course in clare and possibly elsewhere.

spacetweek wrote: »

Why did the British comment on the case? I wonder who asked them.

God only knows, but it probably has a bearing on their future plans so they'd want to get a favorable ruling so they may well have just decided that they needed to say something.

Sponge Bob · 11-04-2013 4:09pm

spacetweek wrote: »

I thought it was a snail? :P

No, thats the rare lad on the far side who eats limestone.

Aidan1 · 11-04-2013 4:20pm

No that was greg norman's golf course in clare and possibly elsewhere.

And a big section of the M7 in the Curragh, which is where, as far as I can remember, Mr Sweetman got his big break on this stuff.

antoobrien · 11-04-2013 4:25pm

Aidan1 wrote: »

And a big section of the M7 in the Curragh, which is where, as far as I can remember, Mr Sweetman got his big break on this stuff.

I remember reading somewhere that it the environmentalist enforced redesign ended up killing off said snails, any truth to that?

Aidan1 · 11-04-2013 4:53pm

Simple answer, yes.

The habitat in question was the Pollardstown Fen, which was on the route of the bypass of Kildare (opened in 2003). Construction work got held up for ages - 18 months or more. From memory, the changes that were forced on the NRA resulted in a dewatering of the fen, which wasn't great for the rare semi-aquatic snails that lived there. I think the snails are still there though.

Interesting engineering type paper on the mitigation measures here;

http://www.engineersireland.ie/EngineersIreland/media/SiteMedia/groups/societies/geotechnical/Kildare-Town-Bypass-Design-and-Construction.pdf?ext=.pdf

Iwannahurl · 11-04-2013 5:25pm

antoobrien wrote: »

The full judgement is available, it's the last few paragraphs that are most relevant.

Any project where ABP has rules that there is no alternative can get approval under IORPI & the precuationary principle. By winning this case, sweetman has just made himself irrelevant.

I don't think it can be said that Sweetman 'won' this case, given that it was referred to the ECJ by the Irish Supreme Court for a rulling on points of EU law.

However, the ruling does seem to vindicate Sweetman's long-held position on the matter.

The GCOB case proper now reverts to the Supreme Court, and it remains to be seen how they will proceed.

Bypass advocates (eg City & County Councils) now seem to be relying on the IROPI process. I wonder whether that has to wait for the Supreme Court decision, or whether they actually rule on IROPI applications?

I am led to believe that IROPI may not succeed either, and that the same principles (as set out in the ECJ decision) will have to apply. The key issue seems to be the availability of alternatives to a bypass, and that may be where the case ultimately falters.

yer man! · 11-04-2013 5:46pm

Iwannahurl wrote: »

I don't think it can be said that Sweetman 'won' this case, given that it was referred to the ECJ by the Irish Supreme Court for a rulling on points of EU law.

However, the ruling does seem to vindicate Sweetman's long-held position on the matter.

The GCOB case proper now reverts to the Supreme Court, and it remains to be seen how they will proceed.

Bypass advocates (eg City & County Councils) now seem to be relying on the IROPI process. I wonder whether that has to wait for the Supreme Court decision, or whether they actually rule on IROPI applications?

I am led to believe that IROPI may not succeed either, and that the same principles (as set out in the ECJ decision) will have to apply. The key issue seems to be the availability of alternatives to a bypass, and that may be where the case ultimately falters.

I remember Sweetman was asked what alternatives could be built instead of the bypass, he responded with the implementations of flyovers near to the city centre on the current route. Of course that is completely ridiculous as it would barely improve the flow of traffic and would cost in the same region of finance. The truth is there simply is no real alternative, a tunnel was researched in the original route selection but was dropped on the grounds of expense and being unnecessary as the current bridge design allowed for more than enough room for any boats which currently navigate the Corrib all the while still remaining relatively low down. I saw the design for the bridge and it looks really nice, very modern suspension bridge similar to the back of the €500 note (only way I could describe it). By being a dual carriageway it also facilitates bicycles.

Iwannahurl · 11-04-2013 7:01pm

I'm all in favour of really good design (eg the bicycle, never bettered

) but I'm sceptical about the flyover idea.

Was such a proposal ever seriously considered?

yer man! · 11-04-2013 8:31pm

Iwannahurl wrote: »

I'm all in favour of really good design (eg the bicycle, never bettered ) but I'm sceptical about the flyover idea.

Was such a proposal ever seriously considered?

Nope, was shot down straight away due to space constraints and the fact that you would have an elevated dual carriageway next to residential areas, imagine the amount of objections.

galwayrush · 11-04-2013 8:57pm

I heard Sweetman on Galway Bay today, he came across as a nasty , angry troublemaker. Where does he imagine he gets his serial objecting mandate from?

yer man! · 11-04-2013 9:23pm

Truth never triumphs — its opponents just die out.

Paraphrased quote - Max Planck

Iwannahurl · 11-04-2013 11:08pm

galwayrush wrote: »

I heard Sweetman on Galway Bay today, he came across as a nasty , angry troublemaker. Where does he imagine he gets his serial objecting mandate from?

He has just been vindicated by the ECJ, it would appear. Perhaps that's the sort of result which convinces him he's not barking up the wrong tree. Ireland has always had to be dragged kicking and screaming to the EU courts or threatened with sanctions for serial non-compliance with Directives etc.

Sweetman has also had a string of other 'wins' in the courts, iirc. No doubt a bunch of failures too, but that's campaigning for you.

Interesting feature on him in the last edition of Village magazine, listing the various cases he has taken and won/lost. Rancid photo of him as well, which might please his detractors.

Iwannahurl · 11-04-2013 11:16pm

yer man! wrote: »

Truth never triumphs — its opponents just die out.

Paraphrased quote - Max Planck

“We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them.”

"Insanity: doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result." (attrib.)

~Albert Einstein.

L1011 · 11-04-2013 11:53pm

Iwannahurl wrote: »

He has just been vindicated by the ECJ, it would appear.

Not really, no. Sweetman seemed convinced - and actually still seems convinced that this actually has going on his hilariously misinformed media interviews today - that this was going to stop the bypass ever being built. Which it won't.

Irish and Proud · 12-04-2013 12:04am

Iwannahurl wrote: »

“We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them.”

"Insanity: doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result." (attrib.)

~Albert Einstein.

Very subjective IMO...

...for example, what is the result??? Presuming that you're talking about the practice of building more roads, the result of same can vary depending on the situation and criteria. For example, the M1 was built through our locality - did it solve all the traffic problems? No! - did it solve some of the traffic problems? Yes! - Was it worth building? - a resounding Yes!!!

Not only did it solve some of the traffic problems (by drastically cutting road deaths), but it has greatly enhanced our freedom to go places and do things on a regular basis that would otherwise have been too difficult to sustain. Another thing - this notion of "the more roads, the more cars" has been greatly undermined since the coincidence between the completion of the interurbans from Dublin and the recession - we now have bigger roads than in 2007 (the height of the boom) and yet, the traffic levels have been slowly declining since 2010. Congestion is IMO largely to do with economic cycles and bad planning - I seriously do not think the GCOB is bad planning - in fact, it's an essential part in creating an environment for more sustainable transport in Galway City.

Anti-road thinking is IMO old school at this stage - integrated transport is the thinking we need for the 21st century - in short, the right tools for the right job.

Iwannahurl · 12-04-2013 9:22am

Irish and Proud wrote: »

Very subjective IMO...

Einstein -- thick as a Planck.

Irish and Proud wrote: »

this notion of "the more roads, the more cars" has been greatly undermined.

Really? Compare the above with:

Irish and Proud wrote: »

[The M1] has greatly enhanced our freedom to go places and do things on a regular basis that would otherwise have been too difficult to sustain.

What do you think people with cars do with "greatly enhanced ... freedom to go places and do things on a regular basis that would otherwise have been too difficult" without a shiny new road? Stay at home? Take the bus? Cycle?

The current recession -- ie the biggest economic crash since 1929 -- is an extreme event which does not undermine the established evidence regarding induced traffic.

Iwannahurl · 12-04-2013 9:29am

MYOB wrote: »

Not really, no. Sweetman seemed convinced - and actually still seems convinced that this actually has going on his hilariously misinformed media interviews today - that this was going to stop the bypass ever being built. Which it won't.

Ever? Maybe.

From today's Irish Independent: "The ruling means the proposed N6 Galway City outer bypass may have to be scaled back or abandoned." (http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/eu-court-blocks-bypass-over-fears-of-damage-to-protected-limestone-29191203.html)

The "almighty fall" you were predicting for Sweetie P on this issue hasn't happened yet, but time will tell I suppose...

L1011 · 12-04-2013 9:59am

The indo is speculating with little knowledge of the situation. Which is their usual m.o.

Poster King · 12-04-2013 10:09am

I have a long held desire to eventually move to live in Galway City area. The current traffic problems in the city are a major concern and if they remain unresolved I cannot see myself moving there. I have many friends in Galway and have spoken to many of them and to many of the people that I do business with in the city and they all, without exception, agree with the obvious need for such a bypass. The traffic problems are seriously affecting the development of the city in many respects, not just economic. I have done quite a bit of reading about the bypass, the possible environmental effects (which at worst would be minor) and the alternatives over the years. I don't get angry that easily but find myself fuming over how one or two people can block such an essential piece of infrastructure.
My thoughts today lie mainly with those that live and do business in Galway and who have little chance of moving.

Iwannahurl · 12-04-2013 10:26am

Poster King wrote: »

I have a long held desire to eventually move to live in Galway City area. The current traffic problems in the city are a major concern and if they remain unresolved I cannot see myself moving there. I have many friends in Galway and have spoken to many of them and to many of the people that I do business with in the city and they all, without exception, agree with the obvious need for such a bypass. The traffic problems are seriously affecting the development of the city in many respects, not just economic. I have done quite a bit of reading about the bypass, the possible environmental effects (which at worst would be minor) and the alternatives over the years. I don't get angry that easily but find myself fuming over how one or two people can block such an essential piece of infrastructure.
My thoughts today lie mainly with those that live and do business in Galway and who have little chance of moving.

I was born and reared in Galway City, and I have lived here on and off for most of my life (contrary to what my various nemeses on Boards would like to believe

).

The development of the city has affected traffic, not the other way round IMO. The main traffic-related problems I have in my locality are chronic car dependence, speeding, dangerous/inconsiderate driving, rampant illegal parking, lack of traffic calming and non-provision (over decades) of proper pedestrian crossings, cycle facilities and public transport services/infrastructure.

I cycled or walked to school as a child. The proportion of children walking to school has inexorably dropped over the decades, and fell again between the 2006 and 2011 censuses. What are we to conclude in such a situation: that proportionally more people are driving to school because of traffic congestion and the lack of a bypass?

Galway City Council put all its eggs in the bypass basket ten or fifteen years ago and has sat back waiting for them to hatch. In the meantime they have done far less than they could have to reduce car dependence. I can't get them to even answer my correspondence about the provision of basic crossing facilities for children walking to our school!

antoobrien · 12-04-2013 10:26am

Iwannahurl wrote: »

I am led to believe that IROPI may not succeed either, and that the same principles (as set out in the ECJ decision) will have to apply. The key issue seems to be the availability of alternatives to a bypass, and that may be where the case ultimately falters.

Nope, the precautionary principal means that the "lost" habitat can be replaced - which essentially means de-designating the area in question and moving it to another area to cover at least the same area as the piece that is being lost. Given that most of Co Galway is limestone pavement, there's not exactly going to be much of a problem doing that

Since ABP have already found that there are no reasonable alternatives (e.g. rejecting the tunnel option) and the precautionary principle can apply, there's no reason to believe that it can not succeed.

Iwannahurl · 12-04-2013 10:47am

antoobrien wrote: »

Nope, the precautionary principal means that the "lost" habitat can be replaced - which essentially means de-designating the area in question and moving it to another area to cover at least the same area as the piece that is being lost. Given that most of Co Galway is limestone pavement, there's not exactly going to be much of a problem doing that

Since ABP have already found that there are no reasonable alternatives (e.g. rejecting the tunnel option) and the precautionary principle can apply, there's no reason to believe that it can not succeed.

Perhaps.

On the subject of IROPI, the ECJ said "If the site concerned hosts a priority natural habitat type or a priority species, the only considerations of overriding public interest shall be those relating to human health or public safety, beneficial consequences of primary importance for the environment, or further to an opinion from the Commission to other imperative reasons of overriding public interest."

Is the GCOB site a "priority natural habitat" or just, as it were, a bog standard SAC?

antoobrien · 12-04-2013 10:57am

Iwannahurl wrote: »

On the subject of IROPI, the ECJ said "If the site concerned hosts a priority natural habitat type or a priority species, the only considerations of overriding public interest shall be those relating to human health or public safety, beneficial consequences of primary importance for the environment, or further to an opinion from the Commission to other imperative reasons of overriding public interest."

From the opinion of the advocate:

Whilst the requirements laid down under Article 6(4) are intentionally rigorous, it is important to point out that they are not insuperable obstacles to authorisation. The Commission indicated at the hearing that, of the 15 to 20 requests so far made to it for delivery of an opinion under that provision, only one has received a negative response.

It seems that the commission are not afraid of taking a pragmatic view.

yer man! · 12-04-2013 11:01am

Proposed bridge design, my aunt lives very near this and she said the surrounding neighbours have poured money into stopping it from ever happening, they even wanted everyone to cough up money so a few of them could go to the ECJ to hear the ruling. My aunt thinks it looks nice though, she's all for it and her house will be 20M from the proposed route.

M6 - Galway City Ring Road [planning decision pending]

Comments