Direct Democracy Ireland Launches Today

yore · 15-11-2012 5:09am

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

I put it to you that if we'd had direct democracy in September 2008 there's not a chance in hell we'd be repaying senior Anglo bondholders right now...

You're dead right. Not a chance in hell.

But mainly because the country could quite possibly be similar to a fucking Mad-Max style wasteland

(not referring to specific Banks)

Cavehill Red · 15-11-2012 5:13am

The number of people on this thread afraid of exercising sovereignty over their own lives and who, even after our political class have been proven time and time again to be venally corrupt and spectacularly incompetent, still prefer that option to making the decisions themselves, is quite frightening to me.
Get up off your fcuking knees for once.
Here's something to think about: the richest country on Earth, with no significant natural resources, riven by multiple languages and cultures, surrounded by large states, is the only one using this system on the planet. Coincidence?
Another thing to think about: why is the squabbling of 166 pocket-lining attention-seekers considered at all preferable to the collective wisdom of a nation debating issues nationally?

fasttalkerchat · 15-11-2012 5:13am

yore wrote: »

Let everyone vote on everything? Jesus, what an unworkable and inefficient situation. Sure why would we need TDs and other representatives then?

And this the week after a very important referendum got a very small turnout.

TD's can raise local issues and make smaller decisions. Once 40% of people want to have a direct vote then a vote must happen. (The 40% comes from an online poll, vote online by PPS number - doesn't have to be accurate.)
That's how I would like it done.

yore · 15-11-2012 5:15am

Could one of the proponents of this crackpot scheme, preferably one who has the opinion that we could/should get rid of the politicians, explain to me how the process would work.

Who would decide what to vote on? Would we all do it through Facebook or boards.ie? Maybe have a "suggest a law" thread and if a suggestion gets 1000 likes we can go to the next stage of setting up a thread with a poll on it and if more than 50% vote yes, it becomes a law :pac:

Or would we have an unelected official who decides what we can and can't vote on? Perhaps as I referred to earlier,the fuhrer leader of the movement?

yore · 15-11-2012 5:16am

fasttalkerchat wrote: »

TD's can raise local issues and make smaller decisions. Once 40% of people want to have a direct vote then a vote must happen. (The 40% comes from an online poll, vote online by PPS number - doesn't have to be accurate.)
That's how I would like it done.

Maybe we were a bit hasty in scrapping the e-voting machines after all

yore · 15-11-2012 5:18am

Cavehill Red wrote: »

The number of people on this thread afraid of exercising sovereignty over their own lives and who, even after our political class have been proven time and time again to be venally corrupt and spectacularly incompetent, still prefer that option to making the decisions themselves, is quite frightening to me.
Get up off your fcuking knees for once.
Here's something to think about: the richest country on Earth, with no significant natural resources, riven by multiple languages and cultures, surrounded by large states, is the only one using this system on the planet. Coincidence?
Another thing to think about: why is the squabbling of 166 pocket-lining attention-seekers considered at all preferable to the collective wisdom of a nation debating issues nationally?

Please tell what magical country is this?

poeticseraphim · 15-11-2012 6:30am

Robbo wrote: »

The also have Freeman on the Land "guru" Ben Gilroy involved, fresh from temporarily postponing evictions by waving his hands about chanting magic words and "firing" receivers.

Oh God!

Nodin · 15-11-2012 6:49am

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

Why is there such a fear of direct democracy on this forum?
I put it to you that if we'd had direct democracy in September 2008 there's not a chance in hell we'd be repaying senior Anglo bondholders right now...

There's also not a hope in hell that the government would still have such ridiculous policies with regard to social freedom.

.....and how would you protect minorities?

yore · 15-11-2012 6:57am

Good Jesus, I've looked at a few minutes video on their webpage. It's hilarious.

I like his scientific explanation that GDP is directly related to population....I guess one of their policies might be to entice in another 2 million people or so so that we can get back to our economic highs of the 1840s :pac:

Cavehill Red · 15-11-2012 7:03am

yore wrote: »

Please tell what magical country is this?

Nothing magical about it. Switzerland is run by its people. The only 'magic' is that their politicians answer to the will of the people and not the other way around. And it's worked indisputably well there for centuries.

yore · 15-11-2012 7:11am

Cavehill Red wrote: »

Nothing magical about it. Switzerland is run by its people. The only 'magic' is that their politicians answer to the will of the people and not the other way around. And it's worked indisputably well there for centuries.

Good lad. And here was me thinking that Switzerland with a GDP of just under a half a trillion wasn't as wealthy as the USA with a GDP of over 14 trillion.

I'm still listening to this hilarious video. Apparently we can shut down the central banks and everyone will get loads of money in compensation :pac:

Edit: It's nice the way that at the end of the video, after calling for the destruction of the monetary system as we know it, he then advertises his book that's available to purchase from Amazon for 16.99 paperback or 5.99 as a download :pac: :pac:

Cavehill Red · 15-11-2012 9:33am

yore wrote: »

Good lad. And here was me thinking that Switzerland with a GDP of just under a half a trillion wasn't as wealthy as the USA with a GDP of over 14 trillion.

Wanna try that per capita?

hatrickpatrick · 15-11-2012 12:11pm

Nodin wrote: »

.....and how would you protect minorities?

That's pretty simple, before embarking on this process you would have an iron clad bill of rights, for example the European one, which can't be overturned by a simple vote. Basic rights such as freedom of speech, etc.

The problem with the current system is that we have no real control over politicians after we've elected them. It's very obvious especially when you see things in the media like "That issue won't be touched this year as it's an election year", effectively meaning "once the election is over they can do what they want regardless of the people's opinions on it".

It's an incredibly broken system.

dsmythy · 15-11-2012 12:38pm

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

That's pretty simple, before embarking on this process you would have an iron clad bill of rights, for example the European one, which can't be overturned by a simple vote. Basic rights such as freedom of speech, etc.

The problem with the current system is that we have no real control over politicians after we've elected them. It's very obvious especially when you see things in the media like "That issue won't be touched this year as it's an election year", effectively meaning "once the election is over they can do what they want regardless of the people's opinions on it".

It's an incredibly broken system.

How dare you take away my direct democracy voice. I'm starting a petition right now to be allowed change these ironclad rights.

the_syco · 15-11-2012 2:47pm

Robbo wrote: »

The also have Freeman on the Land "guru" Ben Gilroy involved, fresh from temporarily postponing evictions by waving his hands about chanting magic words and "firing" receivers.

In that case they can burn in hell!

Robbo · 15-11-2012 4:07pm

the_syco wrote: »

In that case they can burn in hell!

It's a common curse of groups which pop up in Ireland, seeking to do something differently or presenting a different point of view; they'll inevitably end up hijacked or tainted by those with esoteric agendas and beliefs.

Witness how quickly Occupy Galway went from being about unfair wealth distribution to being a haven the anti-vaxxers, Freemen, etc which ended up at the end with a man of pensionable age shouting at the Gardai about chemtrails and Ulick McEvaddy's plot to rule the world.

For the record, I'd like to see the implementation of some elements of direct democracy, it's just this particular well is completely tainted by having Ben Gilroy as a figurehead.

Fools and opportunists will always bring them down.

yore · 15-11-2012 4:09pm

Cavehill Red wrote: »

Wanna try that per capita?

Well if you insist

http://www.imf.org/external/pubs/ft/weo/2012/02/weodata/weorept.aspx?pr.x=14&pr.y=9&sy=2010&ey=2017&ssd=1&sort=country&ds=.&br=1&c=137%2C142%2C576%2C146%2C532%2C178%2C112%2C111&s=PPPPC&grp=0&a=

Just a little selection for you. Including both Ireland and the UK for comparison purposes

Nodin · 15-11-2012 4:24pm

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

That's pretty simple, before embarking on this process you would have an iron clad bill of rights, for example the European one, which can't be overturned by a simple vote. Basic rights such as freedom of speech, etc.

The problem with the current system is that we have no real control over politicians after we've elected them. It's very obvious especially when you see things in the media like "That issue won't be touched this year as it's an election year", effectively meaning "once the election is over they can do what they want regardless of the people's opinions on it".

It's an incredibly broken system.

So how would such a bill of rights protect single mothers benefit from being overly targeted in cuts, for instance....

Nodin · 15-11-2012 4:25pm

the_syco wrote: »

In that case they can burn in hell!

They don't recognise hells authority to burn them.

southsiderosie · 15-11-2012 5:49pm

Manach wrote: »

Given that direct democracy was successful in classical times...

In classical times, there was not universal citizenship.

KyussBishop wrote: »

Seems a pretty straight-forward movement, looking to bring in petition-based referenda at various levels of government, like in Switzerland; seems a worthwhile movement to support (even if direct democracy can have downsides, like the Switzerland minaret issue).

Direct democracy has many downsides.

First, as Nodin mentioned, it is bad for minorities. Switzerland was the last Western country to adopt universal suffrage for women, and allowing a vote on every single aspect of society had a deleterious effect on naturalization processes. Traditionally in some areas, town residents got to vote on citizenship applications, and the outcomes were so discriminatory that this right was taken away.

Second, as California makes clear, direct democracy can put enormous pressure on the state's finances, as people demand fewer taxes and more services. Proposition 13 not only capped property taxes (which in the US fund schools), but also made it difficult for the legislature to pass new tax laws by requiring a 2/3 majority. Given that there is already a strong tendency in Irish politics to kick the can down the road, one can only wonder what direct democracy would actually mean for resolving long-standing problems.

Frankly, I don't think direct democracy is the way to address Ireland's political issues. I've said this before and I'll say it again: if Ireland instated a national list system with proportional representation (like the Netherlands), it would force parties to 1) articulate a clear political position that voters could hold them to, 2) take much of the cute heroism out of politics (because people would be voting for the party not the individual at the national level, and 3) force legislators to focus on national issues rather than parish pump politics. I do think, however, that local governments should be given more control over revenues and spending, and perhaps at that level there is more room for a more direct, participatory form of governance. But direct democracy would be disastrous at the national level.

yore · 15-11-2012 5:53pm

To add to what Southsiderosie said above, "Direct Democracy" seems like something that hardcore US Republicans/Tea Partiers would be in favour of!

15-11-2012 5:57pm

southsiderosie wrote: »

Second, as California makes clear, direct democracy can put enormous pressure on the state's finances, as people demand fewer taxes and more services. Proposition 13 not only capped property taxes (which in the US fund schools), but also made it difficult for the legislature to pass new tax laws by requiring a 2/3 majority. Given that there is already a strong tendency in Irish politics to kick the can down the road, one can only wonder what direct democracy would actually mean for resolving long-standing problems.

Just on this note. To clarify, Proposition 30 in California passed at the last election increasing taxes.

http://ballotpedia.org/wiki/index.php/California_Proposition_30,_Sales_and_Income_Tax_Increase_(2012)

People will vote not out of selfish reasons some of the time

Gotta have a bit of faith in them to do it!

southsiderosie · 15-11-2012 6:02pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Just on this note. To clarify, Proposition 30 passed at the last election increasing taxes.

http://ballotpedia.org/wiki/index.php/California_Proposition_30,_Sales_and_Income_Tax_Increase_(2012)

People will vote not out of selfish reasons some of the time

Gotta have a bit of faith in them to do it!

So we should take comfort in the fact that after three decades of underfunding schools that voters finally decided that a state that relies on a knowledge economy should perhaps not kill the goose that lays the golden eggs (i.e. the University of California system, which drives technology innovation)? Because, frankly, I think that is an absurd approach to public investment.

15-11-2012 6:09pm

But the fact is they did it.

It would be one thing if California had never raised taxes, your argument would be fine and legitimate. But it's a pretty slim argument if it's, "Oh well, yeah, they do it NOW, but what about years ago?"

The fact is, change has to happen, but it amazes me how many people that call out for change are so afraid of it, or won't join because of one or two people that are involved.

It's actually madness to not give other people a chance. Lets be honest, we're in debt up to our eyeballs. My Kids kids could potentially still be paying our debts. Meanwhile politicians can retire on grotesque sums of money.

And you're afraid the other crowd would be worse.

"Madness is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results"

Madness.

southsiderosie · 15-11-2012 6:16pm

Deleted User wrote: »

But the fact is they did it.

It would be one thing if California had never raised taxes, your argument would be fine and legitimate. But it's a pretty slim argument if it's, "Oh well, yeah, they do it NOW, but what about years ago?"

The fact is, change has to happen, but it amazes me how many people that call out for change are so afraid of it, or won't join because of one or two people that are involved.

It's actually madness to not give other people a chance. Lets be honest, we're in debt up to our eyeballs. My Kids kids could potentially still be paying our debts. Meanwhile politicians can retire on grotesque sums of money.

And you're afraid the other crowd would be worse.

"Madness is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results"

Madness.

I'm not suggesting the same thing should be done - I offered an alternative. But I don't think that direct democracy is the way to do it. Taking thirty years to correct course when it comes to tax policy is insane - and in the meantime, two generations of children have paid the price.

yore · 15-11-2012 6:28pm

Deleted User wrote: »

It's actually madness to not give other people a chance. Lets be honest, we're in debt up to our eyeballs. My Kids kids could potentially still be paying our debts. Meanwhile politicians can retire on grotesque sums of money.

And remind me why your vote didn't count when choosing the same politicians? And why they won't/can't be removed in the next election or from public pressure? Or remind me why you are discriminated against can't run for election yourself - "is it coz I is black?"

Deleted User wrote: »

"Madness is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results"
Madness.

Grand. Sure it'd be stupid not to at least try out an equivalent of the Greek New Dawn crowd or British BNP or even invite Kim Yong Un and his generals in to take control. It'd be madness not to.

Jonny7 · 15-11-2012 7:35pm

Robbo wrote: »

It's a common curse of groups which pop up in Ireland, seeking to do something differently or presenting a different point of view; they'll inevitably end up hijacked or tainted by those with esoteric agendas and beliefs.

Witness how quickly Occupy Galway went from being about unfair wealth distribution to being a haven the anti-vaxxers, Freemen, etc which ended up at the end with a man of pensionable age shouting at the Gardai about chemtrails and Ulick McEvaddy's plot to rule the world.

For the record, I'd like to see the implementation of some elements of direct democracy, it's just this particular well is completely tainted by having Ben Gilroy as a figurehead.

Fools and opportunists will always bring them down.

Funniest post I've read in here in a long while, bang on as well

Am Chile · 16-11-2012 1:57am

Deleted User wrote: »

First off, I am not a member and I don't fully understand what the party represents.

I think it's safe to say it's a left wing party, but other than that, would their stance on all issues be: Put it to the vote!

Where do you stand on abortion? Put it to the Vote!
Drugs? Put it to the Vote!

etc. etc.

I saw from their facebook that they're getting support from Pacub - Protest Against Cuts to Child Benefit. I would be firmly opposed to this as I personally think it should not be paid to high earners. But I suppose you can't like everything that a party stands for, and if it goes to a vote, the people would decide.

I've never belonged to a political party as I never found the right "fit". The closest philosophy that I am drawn to would be Libertarian Socialism.

www.directdemocracyireland.com

From pictures I have seen of the the launch from different facebook photos-a good few people in the photos I recognize straight away as known members of the local freemen on the land group-I won,t post any links of any photos because of possible legal issues uploading other peoples photos on a public forum-while Im strongly in favour of a direct democracy system like Switzerland and would be in favour of a similar system here-the very fact this new party has (freemen on the land members) I cast doubts over this new party.

SeanW · 16-11-2012 2:50am

yore wrote: »

Good man yourself. Sure lets burn The Reichstag Leinster House while we're at it.

Godwinned in close to record time ...

Because the Swiss (who the idea of direct democracy is modelled after) are SOOO much like the Nazis ...

joe12345 · 16-11-2012 1:24pm

Always remember that we the people own this country, not the banks or the politicians who were elected on lies and false promises!! It's time for every person in Ireland to unite together and rid Ireland of corruption. Every group, campaign or new party must realise that our only strength is our numbers so the sooner we all stand up against one cause the sooner each individual group will win it's battle.

I am however very saddened by the negative comments on here, and quite frankly some of them are defamation of the DDI leader, who I have met and is an honest and decent man, that has done a lot to help keep people in their homes all over Ireland that were facing eviction because they could not pay unsustainable mortgages to criminal bankers, that do not give a damn about the people, but only about profit.

The current system just does not work. Politicians always putting their own vested interests (pensions, etc.) and putting the banking cartel first and the people of Ireland second. It has become acceptable to tell lie after lie (e.g. 'not one more cent', etc.) and no one bats an eyelid. Hell they even tell us to 'get a life' ! I am sick of politicians that are sucking up before election time and then go back on most everything that was promised. They are really like a virus that has taken over Ireland, corrupt in every way .. look at the Supreme Court ruling last week, again showing the government to be the manipulators that they are.

I don't blame the politicians alone, but the system which is clearly broken. It's like a MAZE - it doesn't matter who you send in there after a while they are bound to either get lost or reach a dead end - in other words - it's the MAZE that has to change. That's why DDI is presenting itself a 'political system' rather than 'party'. At the moment we have a system, lets say like a production line in a manufacturing plant and a set of steps that produces a product at the end... well it's predictable isn't it? Exactly the same here, the Irish people complain about the corrupt politicians, such as Bertie, and some of the current ones, etc., but can we be surprised when we have a system that keeps producing them?

All the main political parties are just like different fingers on the same hand, all ultimately answering to their masters in Europe, puppets if you like, infact Enda Kenny got a a nice little reward for being the biggest puppet last week. And people wonder why nothing ever changes? The Mahon Tribunal Report during the summer (even though those with vested interests tried to sabotage and derail it) proved that recent Irish politics is immersed in dishonesty, corruption, cronyism and backhanders..... yet what steps have been put in place to ensure that never happens again? ..Nothing from what I can see, infact judging by the Minister Reilly fiasco a few weeks back, it's still part and parcel of Irish politics.

I just want the best for my family and the Irish people. I attended the DDI launch and there was a tremendous atmosphere there, with 200 plus people very positive that there a brighter future ahead for Ireland. And after whats gone before, and what we have at the moment, surely they deserve a fair chance? It seems people on here are unfairly condemning them for making an effort because they want a better Ireland. Sure, they have not all the answers, but in my opinion they have something that is of shortage - an empathy and understanding for the wants and needs of the Irish people. Please, for gods sake, I ask you to give them that chance

Note: I am not part of the Freeman on the Land group, or neither were the 3 people who were with me and numerous people I met. I have nothing against that group anyway. They, like me, just want what is best for Ireland and it's people. To be honest I would trust them more knowing that than if they were part of lets say the FF party!

Direct Democracy Ireland Launches Today

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