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Plan to build $84 million Super Mosque in Dublin Ireland.

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    #542
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    lagente wrote: »
    Look, Islam in Ireland has proven itself to be hijacked by rich Wahhabists and Salafists out of Saudi and Qatar, and is being used for political goals..

    Really? You've sources for that?
    lagente wrote: »
    You might not have heard about the suicide bombers in Iraq that were Irish. The Ummah brigade in Syria is led from here. It's goal is sectarian war and instability for Syria. As far as business goes Saudi and Qatar need to be isolated, for the good of the middle east.

    You've sources for that also?


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    #543
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    lagente wrote: »
    Look, Islam in Ireland has proven itself to be hijacked by rich Wahhabists and Salafists out of Saudi and Qatar, and is being used for political goals.
    You might not have heard about the suicide bombers in Iraq that were Irish. The Ummah brigade in Syria is led from here. It's goal is sectarian war and instability for Syria. As far as business goes Saudi and Qatar need to be isolated, for the good of the middle east.

    Even if that is true, this is still a poor argument for undermining freedom of conscience, belief and worship. I honestly don't care how extreme peoples views are, they have a right to hold them. If anyone else finds them ill-founded or silly they have the right to challenge them.


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    #544
    MrD012
    Registered Users Posts: 113 ✭✭MrD012


    Belfast wrote: »
    Good point.
    Sharia Courts in the UK are more of a dispute arbitration service than a true court system.

    very often women are discriminated against in these courts which are controlled by mainly men , women who feel they have been hard done by the decision of the courts are too afraid to seek help from domestic law because they are branded as westerners by their communities and outcast .


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    #545
    walshb
    Registered Users Posts: 55,049 ✭✭✭✭walshb


    Look, why not wait and see. If all these conflicts and issues arise then maybe the anti Mosque crew can celebrate. Not a brick laid yet. Let them build it if it's approved. The possible harm it will bring is pure speculation at the moment.


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    #546
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    MrD012 wrote: »
    very often ......... as westerners by their communities and outcast .

    Getting back to the topic, you still haven't answered the questions I put to you earlier
    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=81274232&postcount=460

    Is there some reason you're unable to do so? It's odd, because they relate to posts and claims you yourself have made on this thread.


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    #547
    MrD012
    Registered Users Posts: 113 ✭✭MrD012


    walshb wrote: »
    Look, why not wait and see. If all these conflicts and issues arise then maybe the anti Mosque crew can celebrate. Not a brick laid yet. Let them build it if it's approved. The possible harm it will bring is pure speculation at the moment.

    The People in the UK were probably told to "wait and see" when Islam first started to establish itself , now look , look at them , its a mess , a well documented and reported on mess .


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    #548
    skD13
    Registered Users Posts: 172 ✭✭skD13


    MrD012 wrote: »
    very often women are discriminated against in these courts which are controlled by mainly men , women who feel they have been hard done by the decision of the courts are too afraid to seek help from domestic law because they are branded as westerners by their communities and outcast .

    In case you missed what I posted earlier, the individuals behind this project, have stated in the articles of association of their company:

    "To promote the education of children about their Islamic culture, and mother tongue, to promote the integration of Muslims into the community for the benefit of the general community through community activities and women empowerment programs."

    Is this not more relevant than what is going on in the UK? If women are being discriminated against in these courts then that is reprehensible, I agree. But I am not up to speed on them at all so can't really corroborate or dispute anyone's assertions on these courts. If they do indeed discriminate against women, then if ever such courts were promoted here in Ireland, it will be up to our state to manage them and even prevent them if required.

    What we can judge now is what the backers of this mosque have actually stated and lodged with the CRO. Seems fine to me.

    The detractors of this project keep worrying about what MIGHT happen. I would ask myself what has happened in the 15+ years since the Clonskeagh facility has opened? That is our nearest point of comparison. Anything bad? As far as I know Clonskeagh and the surrounding areas are doing fine. And indeed, based on the price a friend recently paid for a house in Clonskeagh, it hasn't damaged the area one bit!


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    #549
    walshb
    Registered Users Posts: 55,049 ✭✭✭✭walshb


    MrD012 wrote: »
    The People in the UK were probably told to "wait and see" when Islam first started to establish itself , now look , look at them , its a mess , a well documented and reported on mess .

    So, for that you would deny and not allow the Mosque a chance here? I see your point, but you cannot have that kind of power being yielded. If Muslims get the approval, and live by the laws of the land, then what is the problem? You are only betting that they will not live by the laws of the land, and/or that there will be conflict. The Clonskeagh Mosque and its presence/success would not bolster your argument here.


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    #550
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    MrD012 wrote: »
    The People in the UK were probably told to "wait and see" when Islam first started to establish itself , now look , look at them , its a mess , a well documented and reported on mess .

    Would care to answer the questions relating to your comments please?
    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=81274232&postcount=460

    Why are you unwilling (or perhaps unable) to answer questions based on comments you yourself have made?


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    #551
    Belfast
    Registered Users Posts: 1,355 ✭✭✭Belfast


    lagente wrote: »
    Look, Islam in Ireland has proven itself to be hijacked by rich Wahhabists and Salafists out of Saudi and Qatar, and is being used for political goals.
    You might not have heard about the suicide bombers in Iraq that were Irish. The Ummah brigade in Syria is led from here. It's goal is sectarian war and instability for Syria. As far as business goes Saudi and Qatar need to be isolated, for the good of the middle east.

    if we we only to trade with countries that we approve of there would not be much of the world left to trade with.

    Not sure how long the world would get along without Saudi oil.


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    #552
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    MrD012 wrote: »
    The People in the UK were probably told to "wait and see" when Islam first started to establish itself , now look , look at them , its a mess , a well documented and reported on mess .
    And many people have told you clearly that from living here it isn't a mess. I think at this point it's starting to look very clearly like you're an ideologue with no interest in listening.


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    #553
    K-9
    Registered Users Posts: 43,311 ✭✭✭✭K-9


    philologos wrote: »
    And many people have told you clearly that from living here it isn't a mess. I think at this point it's starting to look very clearly like you're an ideologue with no interest in listening.

    Indeed, at this state there doesn't seem to be much left in this discussion other than MrD012 repeatedly stating how opposed he is to the mosque because of Islamic fundamentalism, which is perfectly fine but it's starting to look like MrD012 needs to start a blog.

    Mad Men's Don Draper : What you call love was invented by guys like me, to sell nylons.



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    #554
    MrD012
    Registered Users Posts: 113 ✭✭MrD012


    philologos wrote: »
    And many people have told you clearly that from living here it isn't a mess.

    yes but thats hearsay - somebody told me something so it must be true , all of the factual evidence suggests otherwise and its not just to do with radical elements , it has to do with integration issues such as an unwillingness to abide by domestic laws and choose shariah laws instead.


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    #555
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    MrD012 wrote: »
    yes but thats hearsay - somebody told me something so it must be true , all of the factual evidence suggests otherwise and its not just to do with radical elements , it has to do with integration issues such as an unwillingness to abide by domestic laws and choose shariah laws instead.

    How is it hearsay when I see for myself every day how Muslims live and work in Britain? That's not really hearsay. That's observational evidence. Indeed getting to know Muslims personally helps to grow understanding in that area. Why don't you try to get to know your Muslim neighbours if you have any?

    It seems your view is based on not much more than blinkered prejudice and clutching at straws.

    Disagree with Islam as much as you like. I do. Freedom of religion, conscience, worship and expression is a fundamental human liberty. It would put Ireland into a category of human rights violators if you banned the construction of mosques for no good reason other than said prejudice.


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    #556
    ice man75
    Registered Users Posts: 62 ✭✭ice man75


    philologos wrote: »
    Even if that is true, this is still a poor argument for undermining freedom of conscience, belief and worship. I honestly don't care how extreme peoples views are, they have a right to hold them. If anyone else finds them ill-founded or silly they have the right to challenge them.

    Even if their views end up in a plot like 9/11 or London, thats ok?


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    #557
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    ice man75 wrote: »
    Even if their views end up in a plot like 9/11 or London, thats ok?

    People have the right to hold really rotten views. Its the job of counterterrorism squads to investigate terrorist activity or terrorist plots. People have the right to hold whatever beliefs they like as long as it doesn't adversely affect me or others.


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    #558
    ice man75
    Registered Users Posts: 62 ✭✭ice man75


    philologos wrote: »
    People have the right to hold really rotten views. Its the job of counterterrorism squads to investigate terrorist activity or terrorist plots. People have the right to hold whatever beliefs they like as long as it doesn't adversely affect me or others.

    So we have the right to hold really rotten views, as long as there not acted upon. but the trouble with that is people who tend to hold these types of views usually try to act on them.
    And I know thats the job of "counterterrorism squad" but from a searh on the Garda.ie web site we appeareantly dont have one.


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    #559
    SeanW
    Registered Users Posts: 8,785 ✭✭✭SeanW


    K-9 wrote: »
    Indeed, at this state there doesn't seem to be much left in this discussion other than MrD012 repeatedly stating how opposed he is to the mosque because of Islamic fundamentalism, which is perfectly fine but it's starting to look like MrD012 needs to start a blog.
    It's a legitimate concern - for example the Finsbury Park Mosque was a terrorist recruitment centre while Abu Hamza was in charge, many other mosques are funded/run by Wahabbists and are little better.

    We should be sure there is no Saudi/Wahabbist involvement with this thing before letting it be built IMHO.


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    #560
    old hippy
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 9,441 ✭✭✭old hippy


    ice man75 wrote: »
    Even if their views end up in a plot like 9/11 or London, thats ok?

    London was home grown terrorism, we have had some of that in Ireland for decades and decades. The dizzies haven't gone away, you know.


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    #561
    K-9
    Registered Users Posts: 43,311 ✭✭✭✭K-9


    SeanW wrote: »
    It's a legitimate concern - for example the Finsbury Park Mosque was a terrorist recruitment centre while Abu Hamza was in charge, many other mosques are funded/run by Wahabbists and are little better.

    We should be sure there is no Saudi/Wahabbist involvement with this thing before letting it be built IMHO.

    As I said, it's perfectly fine to have concerns about fundamentalism, no issue with that, as long as we can have a half decent discussion.

    I'd wonder why these groups haven't infiltrated the current mosques? That doesn't seem to be the case.

    Mad Men's Don Draper : What you call love was invented by guys like me, to sell nylons.



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    #562
    ice man75
    Registered Users Posts: 62 ✭✭ice man75


    K-9 wrote: »

    As I said, it's perfectly fine to have concerns about fundamentalism, no issue with that, as long as we can have a half decent discussion.

    I'd wonder why these groups haven't infiltrated the current mosques? That doesn't seem to be the case.

    Do you have proof the mosques haven't been infiltrated? I doubt the preach hate out in the open it's usually cloak and dagger kinda stuff...

    And as a moderator are you not supposed to be in the back ground so to speak instead of giving your opinion on topics. I'm not saying you can't have your say but maybe it should be done as a member and not someone in power as it looks bias


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    #563
    MrD012
    Registered Users Posts: 113 ✭✭MrD012


    philologos wrote: »
    It seems your view is based on not much more than blinkered prejudice and clutching at straws.

    how am I clutching at straws when I have linked to many articles relating to the impact of Islamic culture on western UK society , on the other hand all you have said so far is that you know people who told you something or you know a couple of muslim people , hardly representative of the overall picture or a basis to bury our heads in the sand so to speak.
    philologos wrote: »
    It would put Ireland into a category of human rights violators if you banned the construction of mosques for no good reason other than said prejudice.

    As we've seen with Islam all around the world human rights is certainly not to the forefront of its teachings especially in relation to its women , therefore if you discourage it, you would actually be protecting human rights.


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    #564
    old hippy
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 9,441 ✭✭✭old hippy


    ice man75 wrote: »
    Do you have proof the mosques haven't been infiltrated? I doubt the preach hate out in the open it's usually cloak and dagger kinda stuff...

    And as a moderator are you not supposed to be in the back ground so to speak instead of giving your opinion on topics. I'm not saying you can't have your say but maybe it should be done as a member and not someone in power as it looks bias

    You've been watching too much Homeland, a chara


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    #565
    old hippy
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 9,441 ✭✭✭old hippy


    MrD012 wrote: »
    how am I clutching at straws when I have linked to many articles relating to the impact of Islamic culture on western UK society , on the other hand all you have said so far is that you know people who told you something or you know a couple of muslim people , hardly representative of the overall picture or a basis to bury our heads in the sand so to speak.



    As we've seen with Islam all around the world human rights is certainly not to the forefront of its teachings especially in relation to its women , therefore if you disencourage it, you would actually be protecting human rights.

    Have you ever lived or worked in the UK? How did it impact you on a daily basis?

    Is the behaviour of the YIM in Bondi representative of Ireland?

    Are the actions of paramilitary men and women of the IRA and the dizzies representative of Ireland?


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    #566
    wes
    Registered Users Posts: 11,747 ✭✭✭✭wes


    MrD012 wrote: »
    how am I clutching at straws when I have linked to many articles relating to the impact of Islamic culture on western UK society , on the other hand all you have said so far is that you know people who told you something or you know a couple of muslim people , hardly representative of the overall picture or a basis to bury our heads in the sand so to speak.

    I fail to see how your linked articles are representative either btw. I also linked an article showing that the media has made up stuff in regards to Muslims, and often solely focus on the negative, which clearly put your claim of your links being representative into question. I take you have heard the term if its bleeds, it leads.

    Also, one of you main examples has no bearing on Ireland btw, due to our laws.

    As I said before, you are just repeating the same thing over and over again, and ignoring any information that you don't like.
    MrD012 wrote: »
    As we've seen with Islam all around the world human rights is certainly not to the forefront of its teachings especially in relation to its women , therefore if you discourage it, you would actually be protecting human rights.

    So your protecting Human Rights by denying them? Straight up hypocrisy imho.


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    #567
    Bannasidhe
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 19,219 Mod ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    ice man75 wrote: »
    Do you have proof the mosques haven't been infiltrated? I doubt the preach hate out in the open it's usually cloak and dagger kinda stuff...

    And as a moderator are you not supposed to be in the back ground so to speak instead of giving your opinion on topics. I'm not saying you can't have your say but maybe it should be done as a member and not someone in power as it looks bias

    Do you have any proof they have been?

    All I am reading in your posts is conjecture without one shred of verifiable evidence.

    As for MOD 'power' - seriously, do you think posters here cannot distinguish between a personal opinion and a MOD warning? Why should MODs not be allowed to express an opinion as long as they too abide by the forum charter?


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    #568
    K-9
    Registered Users Posts: 43,311 ✭✭✭✭K-9


    ice man75 wrote: »
    Do you have proof the mosques haven't been infiltrated? I doubt the preach hate out in the open it's usually cloak and dagger kinda stuff...

    And as a moderator are you not supposed to be in the back ground so to speak instead of giving your opinion on topics. I'm not saying you can't have your say but maybe it should be done as a member and not someone in power as it looks bias

    Any future concerns about modding pm me, we are entitled to give our opinions, I hadn't up to the warning, now that I have entered the discussion I wont be modding the thread.

    Anyway, I asked a question, you answered it with another one which suggests you don't know either. To me the possibility of something isn't enough to stop building a new mosque. I'm sure special branch are monitoring stuff like this, that's their job.

    Mad Men's Don Draper : What you call love was invented by guys like me, to sell nylons.



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    #569
    BluntGuy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,468 ✭✭✭BluntGuy


    ice man75 wrote: »
    Do you have proof the mosques haven't been infiltrated? I doubt the preach hate out in the open it's usually cloak and dagger kinda stuff...

    So the starting assumption according to you is that the mosques have been infiltrated? I think the burden of proof actually lies on you to demonstrate how and why this mosque has been, or will be held to the whim of people promoting terrorism.


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    #570
    Bannasidhe
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 19,219 Mod ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    SeanW wrote: »
    It's a legitimate concern - for example the Finsbury Park Mosque was a terrorist recruitment centre while Abu Hamza was in charge, many other mosques are funded/run by Wahabbists and are little better.

    We should be sure there is no Saudi/Wahabbist involvement with this thing before letting it be built IMHO.

    By the same token should the UK prohibit the building of 'Irish' centers given the decades of 'Irish' terrorism across the UK and the fact that dissident Republicanism hasn't gone away?

    How do they know that these 'Irish' centers are not breeding grounds for the next generation of kidnappers, bank robbers and cowardly bombers i.e. Fundamentalist Republicans?

    Should they simply decide to tar all Irish people with the same brush and adopt a 'better safe than sorry' approach even when the evidence demonstrates that the vast majority of Irish people do not support 'our' political fundamentalists just as the vast majority of Muslims do not support 'their' religious fundamentalists?


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    #571
    Bannasidhe
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 19,219 Mod ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    MrD012 wrote: »

    As we've seen with Islam all around the world human rights is certainly not to the forefront of its teachings especially in relation to its women , therefore if you discourage it, you would actually be protecting human rights.

    Have you ever actually met a Muslim woman?


This discussion has been closed.
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