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Plan to build $84 million Super Mosque in Dublin Ireland.

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    #512
    Frank Grimes
    Registered Users Posts: 5,305 ✭✭✭Frank Grimes


    walshb wrote: »
    Well, only the Muslims can know this. Maybe it is the start of the Muslims' plans to change the face of Ireland. Maybe it will lead to major conflict. We have no evidence yet here in Ireland, but looking at other countries, which we are entitled to do, it seems that it's quite a possiblity that it could lead to conflict.
    Conspiracy theories have no place in the planning process; it's these types of baseless assumptions that often fuel conflicts around mosque building in other European states - we do not need to import that.


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    #513
    walshb
    Registered Users Posts: 55,128 ✭✭✭✭walshb


    Frank Grimes wrote: »
    Conspiracy theories have no place in the planning process; it's these types of baseless assumptions that often fuel conflicts around mosque building in other European states - we do not need to import that.

    I am one who has no real issue with the building of the Mosque. If they get the plans, the legal go ahead, why not? But, I can see the other side too.

    There are three sides in this thread. For it, against it, and those who see no problem with it. All sides have valid arguments. One argument for the against it side is the fact that different cultures/religions/denominations coming together has led to conflict in other countries. We have it here with Catholics and Protestants.


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    #514
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    walshb wrote: »
    Well, only the Muslims can know this. Maybe it is the start of the Muslims' plans to change the face of Ireland. Maybe it will lead to major conflict. We have no evidence yet here in Ireland, but looking at other countries, which we are entitled to do, it seems that it's quite a possiblity that it could lead to conflict.

    "the muslims plans"? where would these be made? In muslim GHQ?


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    #515
    Palmach
    Registered Users Posts: 978 ✭✭✭Palmach


    Frank Grimes wrote: »
    What I do take issue with is that it's some sort of conspiracy to attract Muslims worldwide to live in Clongriffin and implement Shari'a law there or whatever the baseless accusation against Muslims of the day is.

    In UCD there was a common prayer room open to all faiths. So far so good. The Muslims and only the Muslims demanded their own separate prayer room. Sheikh Satadien made in clear this was part of the usual campaign to make separateness and isolation from the main stream part of the Muslims experience so as to increase the control of the extremists.

    Here;s the link on the Chief Muslims spokesman in Ireland........ http://dialogueireland.wordpress.com/2010/08/23/ali-selim%E2%80%99s-mask-begins-to-slip-by-our-irish-islamist-expert/

    Aren't you even a little bit concerned as to who is behind this and why?


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    #516
    ice man75
    Registered Users Posts: 62 ✭✭ice man75


    Palmach very interesting link attached to your post


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    #517
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    Palmach wrote: »
    In UCD there was a common prayer room open to all faiths. So far so good. The Muslims and only the Muslims demanded their own separate prayer room. Sheikh Satadien made in clear this was part of the usual campaign to make separateness and isolation from the main stream part of the Muslims experience so as to increase the control of the extremists. ..........

    So they're all the same and all in it together then?


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    #518
    Frank Grimes
    Registered Users Posts: 5,305 ✭✭✭Frank Grimes


    Palmach wrote: »
    In UCD there was a common prayer room open to all faiths. So far so good. The Muslims and only the Muslims demanded their own separate prayer room. Sheikh Satadien made in clear this was part of the usual campaign to make separateness and isolation from the main stream part of the Muslims experience so as to increase the control of the extremists.
    That's Satardien's take on it, do you have anything that shows that this is the reason why the students wanted the separate prayer space? Even if that was the exact reason, it still doesn't give grounds for stopping the mosque in Clongriffin being built. As Nodin pointed out, they're not all the same.
    Here;s the link on the Chief Muslims spokesman in Ireland........ http://dialogueireland.wordpress.com/2010/08/23/ali-selim%E2%80%99s-mask-begins-to-slip-by-our-irish-islamist-expert/
    He's the spokesman for the Clonskeagh mosque, not all Muslims in Ireland. Maybe this is part of the reason not all Muslims go to Clonskeagh?
    Aren't you even a little bit concerned as to who is behind this and why?
    If someone produced some evidence to show that I should be then I would, but all I keep seeing here is the usual anecdotes, conspiracies, 'but in Saudi Arabia', and 'they're all the same' type arguments. So, no to answer your question.


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    #519
    Son Of A Vidic
    Registered Users Posts: 32,370 ✭✭✭✭Son Of A Vidic


    lagente wrote: »
    http://www.irishcentral.com/news/Plan-to-build-84-million-Islamic-center-in-Dublin-to-host-40000-Muslims-in-the-city-172632091.html#ixzz28drMaw1L

    I personally object to this and I hope we quickly quash the argument that this will lead to creation of new jobs and investment, because the long term ramifications of this are large. We would not be allowed to even spread other religion on the street in many of the countries where the people are from, let alone build a cultural center for it. It is because of this religion that 9 year old girls can be married, and had sex with in countries like Saudi Arabia, beheadings of gays, etc. Islam has branches that are still stuck in the Middle Ages and worse, I'm not even going to argue on that point, and I think we should take active steps against it being built. There has been enough suffering due to unchecked religion here already.

    Posted like a true Daily Mail 'journalist'. The levels of ignorance, misinformation and stupid generalisations made there is actually incredibly ironic.


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    #520
    uberalles
    Registered Users Posts: 836 ✭✭✭uberalles


    Muslim faith like to dominate not assimilate to a country from what ive noticed. Stone age views.

    No thanks.


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    #521
    skD13
    Registered Users Posts: 172 ✭✭skD13


    I read that DialogueIreland article before. Who are they anyway and who wrote that article, it doesn't say on the site?

    That Ali Selim is a bit smug, saw him interviewed before on PrimeTime. Down with this sort of fellow.

    I live in Clongriffin but I should probably disclose that I am moving out soon for various personal reasons. I might note that a recent high profile murder in the area and the shenanigans thereafter have blackened Clongriffin and the wider Donaghmede area, and have damaged the community in my view. Now, this is not why I am moving but it sure as hell upsets me exponentially more to know that this happened here than any risk any influx of Muslims might bring. In fact, people coming to pray and respect the place... sounds great to me.

    Either as an owner-occupier (if I return in future) or as an "investor" (I use that term lightly), I support this (subject to proper planning and scale) because Clongriffin, despite having a lovely park and great public transport options with the DART etc., is seen as a failed project. The recession put the brakes on here faster than you can say BUST. Look at it from the DART and you will see a wasteland. This vista is regularly trotted out by newspapers who like to demonstrate the demise of the Celtic Tiger. This mosque and ancillary development can kick start the completion of the area and that is a positive in my book. There is an empty shopping centre here that at one stage was supposed to hold a Superquinn and a Pennys. It would be nice if it wasn't empty for another 10 or 20 years.

    MrD, one of the major detractors of this project, keeps commenting how Clongriffin is multi-cultural. It is to a degree but is still predominantly Irish. But even if a few Muslims come to live here (and most will probably just travel to the Mosque anyway) they will be from many counties and will just add to the mix here.

    It might also be worth noting, NAMA are doing this to make a return for the state, not just for residents of Clongriffin and the immediate surroundings of Donaghmede, Baldoyle and Portmarnock. Once the bust came, all bets were off re. what happened on the lands here. It could have been a prison, am incinerator... who knows. But it's a mosque and a leisure centre and some business. As long as this is done in an inclusive fashion that welcomes everyone living here it could be the making of Clongriffin.

    I'm reserving final judgement until I see the plans however and they should be up online any day now.


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    #522
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    Frank Grimes wrote: »
    This and the other picture you posted relates to Anjem Choudary and his various groups; they are unrepresentative extremists based in another country - using them as a reason not to build another mosque in Dublin is ridiculous.
    I had some Muslim friends of mine round for dinner on Monday night. Naturally our discussion led to Islam and Christianity and so on. My housemates are all Christians and these guys are seriously committed Muslims, they do dawah (Islamic evangelism) in our area.

    Anjem Choudary also lives nearby. They were universal in their condemnation. These guys are also fairly well versed in the Qur'an. To say in the short and sweet of it, your post can be shown to be even more true from actually asking many Muslims about him. They also lamented the fact that many teenage Muslims become radicalised by YouTube videos without genuinely considering the Qur'an or the Sunnah concerning Muhammad. I went into a mosque for the first time this year during Ramadhan, and I was made very welcome albeit with a strong argumentation about why they felt the Bible was wrong and how I should submit to Islam :)

    I've learned a heck of a lot this year. By the by some of the Muslims I've met are British converts to Islam. I still believe the Qur'an teaches falsehood about God and Jesus, but to say the least I've been really educated.


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    #523
    Dirk Gently
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,784 ✭✭✭Dirk Gently


    I've been in the clonskeagh mosque (cultural centre) a couple of times on business. What I found was far from isolationist tbh.

    First I was struck by how open everyone was actually. They were getting muslim kids involved in sports, setting up soccer teams, swimming, running, even gaa. At that time they had just got 2 of their teams entered into the local school boy leagues which they were very happy about as they seen it as a big step to intergrating with the local Irish community. The place was very much about welcoming people (particularly Irish) to their centre.

    Around the grounds I seen women in full head gear and others without, men in full beards and others without. There seemed to be a mix of moderete to conservative muslims if thats how to describe it. They were all mixing though and this with posh D4 Irish women cutting through the grounds while jogging in lycra and sweaty tight tops. No one seemed too worried about other peoples dress code, it seemed very much each to their own. I remember thinking how "Irish" the scene in the car park was actually watching the muslim women herd their men inside and give out to them for yapping to friends outside. It was obvious who wore the pants so to speak, not at all what I was expecting.

    Inside the centre (which is visually beautiful) people were pottering about attending clubs and organising events and games. Every so often there was a call to prayers (which is awkward while trying to hold a meeting). People seemed more interested in their activities though and reluctently attended prayer at the last minute. People fell over themselves being nice to us, offering us tea and so on.

    At one point I was there with a work colleague of mine and we were chatting to a few diplomatic people there (the whole centre is a cultural centre funded and supported by several muslim countries to promote intergration and good will). My colleague, thought it would be a good idea to small talk about the lybia situation (this was back when Gadaffii was still fighting) with some of the muslim lads and high ranking diplomats of neighbour countries. Needless to say I facepalmed and start looking for exits but to my surprise a very natural conversation developed where they expressed very moderate views and even critised certain regiemes for not distrubuting wealth and taking care of society better. They were critical of several muslim governments. It was like talking to a bunch of Irish lads tbh and we even had a bit of craic.

    In any case, it was a bit of an eye opener for me. They just seemed like a bunch of people trying to get on with life in a foreign country and make the best of it.

    I'm an athiest, I very much dislike all religions and would love nothing more than to see religion fade away to the dustbin of history but I have no irrational fears as regards to the clonskeagh mosque or any other one being built. With such places you're going to have a cross section of strict to modetate people attending. If anything, smaller places, like the ones dotted around industrial estate units and back lanes with smaller congregrations are more likely to appeal to extremists than the likes of super mosques.


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    #524
    MrD012
    Registered Users Posts: 113 ✭✭MrD012


    From the planning application which can be viewed HERE we see that the applicants name is Dubin Welfare Society , after doing a CRO search I found that they share the same address as the clondalkin mosque (15 Naas Rd clondalkin) , which begs the question why would they use such a name -Dublin welfare society ? , is there something to hide ?


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    #525
    skD13
    Registered Users Posts: 172 ✭✭skD13


    MrD012 wrote: »
    From the planning application which can be viewed HERE we see that the applicants name is Dubin Welfare Society , after doing a CRO search I found that they share the same address as the clondalkin mosque (15 Naas Rd clondalkin) , which begs the question why would they use such a name -Dublin welfare society ? , is there something to hide ?

    If you go one step further and download the articles of the company you will find the following which clearly states what they are about with nothing to hide from what I can read. Unless of course they are just telling us what they want us to hear ;).

    The main objective for which the Company is established is:

    "To operate and manage a community centre for the benefit of the residents of Dublin and surrounding areas by providing facilities for educational and cultural programs, affordable and accessible quality childcare, Muslim prayer facilities, information services and meeting rooms for other charitable organisations."

    ....

    "To promote the education of children about their Islamic culture, and mother tongue, to promote the integration of Muslims into the community for the benefit of the general community through community activities and women empowerment programs."


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    #526
    MrD012
    Registered Users Posts: 113 ✭✭MrD012


    The Directors of the Dublin Welfare Society (the applicants for the mosque) are listed as follows

    Abdul Haseeb (32)
    Director, No Function
    2 Mar 2012 – Present (7 months, 15 days)


    Mohammed Nasir Uddin Mozumder (34)
    Director, No Function
    2 Mar 2012 – Present (7 months, 15 days)


    Khondaker Muinuddin (40)
    Director, No Function
    15 Apr 2010 – Present (2 years, 6 months, 2 days)
    Current 1 0

    Mohammad Kamruzzaman (38)
    Director, No Function
    15 Apr 2010 – Present (2 years, 6 months, 2 days)
    Current 1 0

    Mohammad Shamsul Haque (56)
    Company Secretary, No Function
    15 Apr 2010 – Present (2 years, 6 months, 2 days)

    Mohammad Alamgir Hossain
    Director, No Function
    15 Apr 2010 – Present (2 years, 6 months, 2 days)


    Abdul Mannan
    Director, No Function
    15 Apr 2010 – Present (2 years, 6 months, 2 days)


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    #527
    cnocbui
    Registered Users Posts: 19,992 ✭✭✭✭cnocbui


    I'd rather see planning permission given to build a decent children's hospital, quite frankly.


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    #528
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    MrD012 wrote: »
    From the planning application which can be viewed HERE we see that the applicants name is Dubin Welfare Society , after doing a CRO search I found that they share the same address as the clondalkin mosque (15 Naas Rd clondalkin) , which begs the question why would they use such a name -Dublin welfare society ? , is there something to hide ?

    Do you have something to hide? Because you've been serially avoiding the questions I put to you earlier. Why is that? Whats wrong?
    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=81274232&postcount=460


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    #529
    Death and Taxes
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,775 ✭✭✭Death and Taxes


    cnocbui wrote: »
    I'd rather see planning permission given to build a decent children's hospital, quite frankly.
    It's the states job to build a hospital, what has that got to do with one particular religious group building a place of prayer and a cultural centre?


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    #530
    BluntGuy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,468 ✭✭✭BluntGuy


    walshb wrote: »
    Well, only the Muslims can know this. Maybe it is the start of the Muslims' plans to change the face of Ireland. Maybe it will lead to major conflict. We have no evidence yet here in Ireland, but looking at other countries, which we are entitled to do, it seems that it's quite a possiblity that it could lead to conflict.

    Can you present a logical roadmap between the building of one mosque in Dublin and the "major conflict" necessitated by "the Muslims' plans"?
    uberalles wrote:
    Muslim faith like to dominate not assimilate to a country from what ive noticed. Stone age views.

    No thanks.

    Define the standards for acceptable "assimilation" and explain how they have not been met.
    cnocbui wrote:
    I'd rather see planning permission given to build a decent children's hospital, quite frankly.

    Which has what to do with this?


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    #531
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    cnocbui wrote: »
    I'd rather see planning permission given to build a decent children's hospital, quite frankly.

    It's not an either/or choice between the two, you know?


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    #532
    RandomName2
    Registered Users Posts: 5,570 ✭✭✭RandomName2


    Nodin wrote: »
    It's not an either/or choice between the two, you know?

    More to the point the planned mosque isn't publicly financed; and unless the planned location is in one of the proposed sites for the new hospital or other civic amenity, it doesn't have any bearing on such development.

    -

    I'd like someone to clear up the discrepancy between the quoted 5K and 40K capacity of the mosque. If the argument is "well it can house 40 thousand Muslims but it only likely to have 5 thousand at any particular time" then it's still designed for 40k.


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    #533
    Frank Grimes
    Registered Users Posts: 5,305 ✭✭✭Frank Grimes


    RandomName2 wrote: »
    I'd like someone to clear up the discrepancy between the quoted 5K and 40K capacity of the mosque. If the argument is "well it can house 40 thousand Muslims but it only likely to have 5 thousand at any particular time" then it's still designed for 40k.
    The original article states that there are 40,000 Muslims in the city which is, almost certainly, incorrect. At the 2006 census roughly half the Muslim population of the state lived in Dublin (source - pg.9); given that at the time the 2011 census was taken there was just close to 50,000 Muslims in Ireland it is unlikely that the population distribution has changed that dramatically.

    My guess is whoever wrote the article in the OP (a) was using an old estimate (40,000 was common prior to the last census results being published) of the numbers of Muslims in Ireland and (b) erroneously stating that they reside in Dublin. I think the report which the CSO are publishing tomorrow will have the regional breakdowns by religion based on the data from the 2011 census. The Irish Times article states that the capacity will be 5,000 and I am inclined to go with that rather than what was in the Irish Central article.


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    #534
    MrD012
    Registered Users Posts: 113 ✭✭MrD012


    Nodin wrote: »
    You haven't shown any link between the mosque and (3) any proof that its the developers idea to encourage either with the mosque.

    DUBLIN CITY COUNCIL
    NORTH CENTRAL AREA COMMITTEE
    17th September 2012

    Q.24 Question in the name of Councillor Brian McDowell
    “To ask the manager to give an update on the discussions between Dublin City Council and Gerry Gannon in relation to a proposed planning application to build a mosque in the north fringe area.”

    Reply:
    A pre application planning meeting with Gerry Gannon took place in connection with a proposed mixed use development incorporating a mosque in Clongriffin.


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    #535
    Frank Grimes
    Registered Users Posts: 5,305 ✭✭✭Frank Grimes


    MrD012 wrote: »
    DUBLIN CITY COUNCIL
    NORTH CENTRAL AREA COMMITTEE
    17th September 2012

    Q.24 Question in the name of Councillor Brian McDowell
    “To ask the manager to give an update on the discussions between Dublin City Council and Gerry Gannon in relation to a proposed planning application to build a mosque in the north fringe area.”

    Reply:
    A pre application planning meeting with Gerry Gannon took place in connection with a proposed mixed use development incorporating a mosque in Clongriffin.
    That doesn't address Nodin's question:
    Nodin wrote:
    You haven't shown any link between the mosque and (1) immigration to the country (2) immigration into the area (3) any proof that its the developers idea to encourage either with the mosque.
    All that question/answer shows is that the developer met with the council prior to the application going in.


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    #536
    ice man75
    Registered Users Posts: 62 ✭✭ice man75


    Those types of meetings take place nearly every day with planners & developers & people who are building one of houses & extensions it's done so people will get an idea of whether their plan would get the go ahead or not. Their called PAC's
    Pre application consultation.


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    #537
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    MrD012 wrote: »
    DUBLIN CITY COUNCIL
    NORTH CENTRAL AREA COMMITTEE
    17th September 2012

    Q.24 Question in the name of Councillor Brian McDowell
    “To ask the manager to give an update on the discussions between Dublin City Council and Gerry Gannon in relation to a proposed planning application to build a mosque in the north fringe area.”

    Reply:
    A pre application planning meeting with Gerry Gannon took place in connection with a proposed mixed use development incorporating a mosque in Clongriffin.

    Whats that to do with immigration?


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    #538
    Belfast
    Registered Users Posts: 1,355 ✭✭✭Belfast


    Fratton Fred wrote: »
    THat's a load of claptrap tbh.

    There are vastly differing applications of Sharia Law and the only ones implemented in the UK are those to settle disputes. There is no Sharia Court in the UK that sentences anyone to imprisonment, stoning or flogging. Sharia Courts operate only when all parties are happy to sue tham and can only operate within the laws of the country they are in.

    Quoting the extremes of Sharia Law are akin to claiming that under christian law people should be stoned to death for working on the sabbath or that taking slaves from neighbouring countries is acceptable.

    sensationalist scaremongering bollocks.

    Good point.
    Sharia Courts in the UK are more of a dispute arbitration service than a true court system.

    Most civil courts encourage people to settle out side court.

    Services like Sharia Courts in the UK (dispute arbitration services) can save the tax payers lot of money and reduce backlogs in courts.


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    #539
    Belfast
    Registered Users Posts: 1,355 ✭✭✭Belfast


    lagente wrote: »
    http://www.irishcentral.com/news/Plan-to-build-84-million-Islamic-center-in-Dublin-to-host-40000-Muslims-in-the-city-172632091.html#ixzz28drMaw1L

    I personally object to this and I hope we quickly quash the argument that this will lead to creation of new jobs and investment, because the long term ramifications of this are large. We would not be allowed to even spread other religion on the street in many of the countries where the people are from, let alone build a cultural center for it. It is because of this religion that 9 year old girls can be married, and had sex with in countries like Saudi Arabia, beheadings of gays, etc. Islam has branches that are still stuck in the Middle Ages and worse, I'm not even going to argue on that point, and I think we should take active steps against it being built. There has been enough suffering due to unchecked religion here already.

    Are there another religions that you object to build houses of worship and schools in Ireland?

    As for Jobs apart from the Jobs in build mosque, Irish build firms and the ESB have had a long history of civil engineering in the middle east.

    Build a Mosque prompts good relations with Arab counties who buy a lot of Irish beef and provide an outlets for Irish civil engineering firms in this down turn.


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    #540
    lagente
    Registered Users Posts: 137 ✭✭lagente


    Belfast wrote: »
    Build a Mosque prompts good relations with Arab counties who buy a lot of Irish beef and provide an outlets for Irish civil engineering firms in this down turn.

    Look, Islam in Ireland has proven itself to be hijacked by rich Wahhabists and Salafists out of Saudi and Qatar, and is being used for political goals.
    You might not have heard about the suicide bombers in Iraq that were Irish. The Ummah brigade in Syria is led from here. It's goal is sectarian war and instability for Syria. As far as business goes Saudi and Qatar need to be isolated, for the good of the middle east.


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    #541
    lagente
    Registered Users Posts: 137 ✭✭lagente


    old hippy wrote: »
    It's Fintan time

    We have now reached the point where every goon with a grievance, every bitter bigot, merely has to place the prefix, 'I know this is not politically correct, but...' in front of the usual string of insults in order to be not just safe from criticism, but actually a card, a lad, even a hero. Conversely, to talk about poverty and inequality, to draw attention to the reality that discrimination and injustice are still facts of life, is to commit the sin of political correctness. Anti-PC has become the latest cover for creeps. It is a godsend for every curmudgeon and crank, from fascists to the merely smug.

    Sounds like Fintan alright. I tell you what pro-mosque-ers, the lesser income classes might not have reason to articulate about vacuous nonsense so poetically as Fintan, as beautifully shown here.
    Also, who has time to waste being so vacuous and poetic about the aspects of political correctness censorship and unchecked multiculturalism?
    Lets nip all of this in the bud.


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