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Myson Power Extra Problem
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19-06-2012 3:05pm#1I've got 3 plumbing questions.
Here is a diagram of the location of the important parts of the system in relation to one another.
The first concerns a problem with the Central Heating. The system is 3 Zones. ie. Upstairs rads which includes the rads in the attic conversion and bathroom on the 3rd story at the back of the house(right of picture). Downstairs rads and Hot Water.
Hot Water is working. Downstairs is working but upstairs stopped working. I had a look in the boiler cupboard. After a bit of testing I discovered the following.
Turning on the Hot water and/or Downstair Zones from the control panel on the second floor makes the LED on the Myson Power Extra (Valves/Pumps???) corresponding to those zones light up and the Boiler turns itself on.
When I turn on the upstairs zone on its own, its corresponding Myson LED does not light up, the boiler fails to fire up and the temp indicator on the boiler drops from its preset 60 down into the 20's and the upstairs rads do not heat up.
If I switch the offending Myson over to Manual operation and turn on the upstairs zone, again, the boiler fails to fire up and the upstairs zone rads still fail to heat up.
With the upstairs zone Myson slider left in the manual position, if I turn on either/or the Hot water or downstair zone, the boiler comes on and those zones heat up as does the upstairs zone. ie. Even if I haven't actually turned on the upstairs zone from the control panel.
I understand why this is the case because with the offending myson switched to manual the valve for that zone is permanently open.
No fuses on the MCP are tripped. Could there be fuses in the junction box in the boiler cupboard where the 3 Mysons are wired to? Is this a simply case of a failed actuator in the offending myson that I can replace myself. Could a failed actuator also be responsible for the boiler not getting the signal to fire up when that zone is activated.
Mysons left to right: Hot Water(Working) / Upstairs (Not working-No LED) / Downstairs(Working)
Second plumbing problem. The Mains pipe going to the cold water tanks in the attics is knocking something fierce when the tanks are almost finished filling. I presume I need to replace the ball cock valve with an anti knocking valve. I should also get some lids for these tanks. Can anyone recommend a source for these parts and indeed for the replacement Myson actuator if thats what I need.
The attic conversion bathroom at the back of the house is fed by the 1.5 bar pump because it is almost at the same level as the cold water tanks and the boiler. Ocassionally the sink mixer tap spurts wildly and loudly. When I say occasionally, I mean that when it does it, it does it for the duration of the time you want to use it. However another day and it would not spurt at all for the duration of use. I went up to test just there. It wouldn't spurt no matter what I did. (Cold half on/full on, Hot half on/full on, Hot&Cold half on/Full on) I happen to have all zones switched on for the boiler tests mentioned above with the upstairs myson valve on manual. tbh its so cold today (12ºC in June FFS!!), the house could do with a bit of heat so I left the heating on for the whole house even after the myson/boiler tests were finished.
Could the fact that the heating zones are on as well as the hot water have a correlation with whether or not this sink tap spurts. The WC cistern refilling nor the shower(not electric) never seem to spurt despite being on the same 1.5 bar pump as the sink. Some initial research had me thinking the spurting tap had something to do with the overflow back into the cold water tank not having enough height because the tanks are to the side of the attic under the slope of the roof. I read that this lack of height can mean air is sucked back up/down?? the overflow when I tap is operated. However can this be ruled out as the problem if the Shower and WC cistern on the same pump as the spurting tap do not spurt.
Thanks in advance for any advice.0
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re, zone valve, have you checked the upstair room thermostat is working?
have the grey &orange wires from the myson valve been wired in, or cut back?
+1 on the 'cinema area' you must have an understanding wife!
That room designation back at the renovation planning stage a few years ago was 'Aspirational'. Ended up being a bedroom with ensuite.
Hasn't been money in the last few years for a replacement projector anyway but when financials improve it now won't reside in a dedicated home cinema room but a discrete installation in the main Living room probably.
I don't think we have zone thermostats except on the Hot water cylinder. Every rad in the house except a towel warmer in one of the bathrooms have TRL's. At first I though the problem with the myson and/or boiler was simply that the upstairs ambient temp was higher than the highest setting on the upstairs TRL's and the TRL's were not opening on the upstairs rads. I wondered that seeing as this problem only became a problem this Summer and our habit of turning on upstairs and downstairs at the same time either manually or via the timer, meant that the hot air was rising from downstairs raising the temp quickly upstairs and the upstairs TRL's were closing before we happened to check the upstairs rads. However I discovered that the inflow pipe of the upstairs rads wasn't even getting hot so I guess the TRL's could be ruled out as the problem.
There has been no change or work done on the wiring since installation. It just stopped working sometime in the last few weeks.0 -
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DGobs, There is certainly nowhere to set the temperature for the heating zones other than on each TRV valve on each rad...that I can find anyway. The only actual thermostat that I can see is on the hotwater cylinder.
John, I'll do that test tomorrow. To clarify, you want me to switch the working hotwater and downstairs zones to manual as well as the non working upstairs zone and then turn all the zones on via the Controller and see do the LEDS come on on the Mysons for the hotwater and downstairs zones. I already know that the upstairs zones Myson LED does not come on when this zone is turned on from the controller
The 'timeclock' is a Sunvic select 307 XLS alright !
I'll do some further testing in the moro. The LEDs on the Sunvic 307 controller for all the zones including the faulty upstairs zone all light up and I can hear a relay clicking for all zones including the non woking upstairs zone.0 -
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I have a voltage tester. Would that do. ie. yoke with 2 prongs black and red. Says 3.5-230v. Tested it on a DC battery there. Black prong to black post and red to red has a red+ LED light up on the tester. Reverse polarity and the green- led lights up on the tester.
How would I go about testing the back plate connections with this? I presume power needs to be on for this test 0 -
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I posted yesterday after noon before work. Most of the posts were last night and this morning. Our work shifts don't overlap obviously. Its not like this has been going back and forth for days and days with zero progress indicating that you're dealing with a total moron necessitating calling in the pro's before I kill myself
Look I probably will call in the pro's anyway as to be honest the boiler is due a service, I was just hoping that could be delayed a few weeks for financial reasons. ie. Obviously I should ensure its all running perfectly with a service by the end of the Summer before the Autumn/Winter kicks in. If I have to, I'll find the money for the service sooner.
However now its as much a puzzle my brain wants to help solve as anything else.
Can you explain how it can still be a problem with the Myson Valve if the thing started working again after refitting the Sunvic control panel. (The only problem was the other 2 zone mysons stopped working instead) A second refit of the sunvic got the the other 2 mysons back working again and the original back not working again.) How can the problem be anything other than intermittant connections given this new information. I am genuinely interested. I find learning why your intuition is wrong/faulty is as much a valuable learning experience as learning why you are right.0 -
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WOAH!! Hold the horses there lads! Who's attacking anyone!
I've reread my post to try and see where this interpretation is coming from. I thought I was good humouredly(hence smileys) pointing out that rather than this dragging on for days with zero progress that DGobs intimated, that infact most of the posts were within a 24-30 hour period and that surely we had made at least some progress.
Self depracatingly calling myself a moron not intimating that DGobs really thought I was one. I totally get that in threads like these it can be frustrating for the experts/ tradespeople giving advice if they feel that it's not really sinking in and no progress made. Ie they have to make a judgement call as to whether they feel the subject is beyond the abilities of the questioner and thus obviously make the suggestion to call in the experts. I just didn't feel we were at that point quite yet and was trying to make that point albeit hamfistedly.
The way I saw it, in 3 or 4 posts spread out over not much more than a 24 hour period albeit over the second half of one day and the first half of the next, we seemed to have ruled out the very place where the problem initially seemed to lie. ie. the Myson valve, it's actuator and/or it's wiring(at least back to the Sunvic controller wall plate) I thought that was pretty good progress for a few posts and 24 hours, hence my surprise that DGobs seemed to be throwing in the towel so to speak. I never imagined that making my surprise known or questioning why it was thought no progress had been made, might be construed as an attack.
Tbh I think DGobs might have missed the bit about the MV valve working again and the problem shifting to the other two instead. ie ruling out the MV and it's actuator/wiring and hence his opinion that no progress had been made. I went on to re-iterate that information several times in follow on posts because DGobs was still saying the problem could be with the MV.
Now of course I only had a feeling he might have missed that new information but he's the expert and I'm not. Perhaps this new info didn't rule out the MV yet like I thought it did. Thus I asked for clarification as to why the new info doesnt rule out the MV. I've a feeling this last bit is where the impression that I was attacking him came in. When I said ' I find learning where your intuition is wrong.........' , I meant, ' I find learning where ones intuition is wrong.....' ie Mine. I learn just as much when someone explains to me why I am wrong as I do when I am right. ie please tell me why I am wrong so I can learn.
Its only in this mornings post that DGobs acknowledged that the new info actually does rule out that upstairs MV. There was indeed some progress within that first 24 hours, but my posts must have been initiating the tldr response as its only being acknowledged now. I am not complaining about that, if DGobs missed the info which explains why he felt there was no progress, that does not cast DGobs in a bad light or anything. He's being good enough to help a complete stranger all the while dealing with his own work and home responsibilities.
Please accept that my posts were in no way an ungrateful attack.
Assuming that My understanding to date that we've localised the problem to the backplate connections or Sunvic controller is correct. Can you guys explain why I need to know the voltage and not just continuity for which I actually do have a tester for as pointed out in an earlier post.0 -
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I am not coming here giving up my time, the try to justify myself, I would rather just a 'thanks for your help and time'
If you wish to disregard my advice, then do so
Wow, you still seem to think I was attacking you and being ungrateful.
I thanked every one of your posts as and when you posted them. I do appreciate the help and time. Its unfortunate that you seemed to interpret every question I asked as a sign of ungratefulness. However there was reasonable doubt in my mind that you had noticed the new info about the problem shifting to the other MV's (thus ruling any of the MV's out as the location of the problem and hinting that the fault was at the backplate/controller pin interface). Hence the questions were not a sign of ungratefulness but just me trying to clarify whether your subsequent advice to call in the experts took into account all of the information.
Indeed you don't need to justify yourself but it is unfortunate that you erroneously accused me of attacking you almost getting me into trouble with the mods and which forced me in the course of my defense of the attack accusation to highlight that you had missed information in my posts and thus your advice to get in the experts was premature. I wouldn't have pointed that out otherwise and would indeed have said 'thanks for your help and time' and quietly ignored your advice.
We all appreciate the help and advice we get here. We all understand that you guys are giving your valuable free time to help people. We all understand that there are limits to that free time and no one expects that advice to flow indefinitely. We know there is a time when the experts must make a judgement call on whether to continue giving their time and hand holding us or to advise we get a technician in.
However, half listening/reading does neither side any favours as erroneous/premature advice might be given. If your going to help people and advise them then read everything or if your not prepared to do that then leave it to one of the other regulars who will.
Onto the progress that was made today.......
Despite asking for clarification whether my voltage tester was the correct tool and not getting it (definitively at any rate), I went ahead and tested the contacts on the backplate.
Black prong to Neutral and red prong to masterLive. Red light on tester lit up. Keeping black prong on Neutral and testing Live 1,2,3,4,5,6 gave me voltage and the red light where one expected them given the circuit diagram and labels printed on the back of the Sunvic controller. ie Zone 1 Off contact gave a red light, Zone 1 On contact gave no red light etc etc
I assumed from this that the wiring in the back plate itself was fine.
It really was looking like the problem was simply intermittant contact by the connection pins on the back of the controller.
After studying/examining both parts I found what the problem was and why it seemed to develope 2 years after install.
The backplate engages with the casing of the controller on one side of the controller (the left) An uneven wall can mean the plastic standoffs on the other side of the Sunvic casing don't necessarily support the right hand side of the casing. There are buttons on the right hand side of the Sunvic controller casing. Over time people were pressing the rubber keys on that side too hard, torquing the casing on that unsupported side (plastic standoffs not making contact with the wall). This torquing eventually bent the plastic retention clips on the backplate and the plastic of the sunvic casing where they catch. This eventually allowed the Controller body not to engage fully on the back plate and one or more of the connection pins on the back lost contact with their corresponding connections on the backplate causing the symptoms I outlined throughout this thread.
My sollution was to loosen the backplate screws and put some mm thick spacers behind the wall plate before retightening the screws. This meant I could push the Sunvic controller home without need for the broken plastic backplate clip holding and warping I might add the Sunvic casing against the wall. The uneven wall was also a problem here. One was warping the casing against the uneven wall to get it to engage with the backplate clips. When the clips where unbroken, this was fine. The casing was held tighly albeit warped against the wall. However when the button pressing torquing eventually broke the clip, the casing of the sunvic rebounds back to its unstressed normal shape which then held the casing and thus pins further away from the uneven wall and backplate. Some pins now lost contact. The spacers take the uneven wall out of the equation and allowed the Controller to be pressed home fully with all pins engaging with their corresponding contacts once again. Now I just have to fit a thicker spacer behind the unsupported right hand side of the controller casing to prevent the toquing from button presses pivoting the casing and popping it off the backplate on the other side (now that the plastic backplate clips that used to hold it on are broken off). Some double sided foam adhesive tape should do the trick.
So while I do not doubt that the Sunvic 307 is prone to other types of failures and probably still deserves its reputation or lack thereof, I think what I have concluded might well explain all those 'Faulty' Sunvic 307's that subsequently bench tested as working normally.
How many service calls and €140 replacement Controller expenditures were down to this apparent simple casing design fault I wonder?
Final result, is that all zones and MV's are now operating normally and perfectly.
I hope this new information is a help to others.0 -
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