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Off Licenses that serve from the cask

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  • 23-05-2012 9:55pm
    #1
    P_1
    Registered Users Posts: 14,681 ✭✭✭✭


    Was over in London for the rugby last weekend and one of the things that impressed me the most was a particular Off License in Richmond.

    We walked in and had a look at some of the beers that they had in stock. A staff member asked us if we would like to try some cask ale. Tried a delicious pale ale and then purchased a jug of said ale which was poured straight from the cask. Certainly added to the match day experience and we were the envy of most people in the fan village prior to the match who were stuck drinking overpriced watered down Heineken.

    Just wondering if there is anywhere in Dublin that would do something similar and if not, why not? It strikes me as a fantastic service.


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    #2
    CiaranC
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,300 ✭✭✭CiaranC


    pithater1 wrote: »
    Was over in London for the rugby last weekend and one of the things that impressed me the most was a particular Off License in Richmond.

    We walked in and had a look at some of the beers that they had in stock. A staff member asked us if we would like to try some cask ale. Tried a delicious pale ale and then purchased a jug of said ale which was poured straight from the cask. Certainly added to the match day experience and we were the envy of most people in the fan village prior to the match who were stuck drinking overpriced watered down Heineken.

    Just wondering if there is anywhere in Dublin that would do something similar and if not, why not? It strikes me as a fantastic service.

    They do this in my local here in Wellinton, twenty beers on draught/cask, fill a 2 litres bottle and take away.

    Definate gap in the market here.


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    #3
    Mr Simpson
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,332 ✭✭✭Mr Simpson


    I doubt any off-licences in dublin are doing this. Serving alcohol like this would not really count as for off-site consumption and cause problems with licencing. I'm pretty sure off-licences must serve alcohol in a sealed container for at home consumption.

    I'd see no problem with them filling and capping bottles though. Like pubs used to do with guinness.


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    #4
    P_1
    Registered Users Posts: 14,681 ✭✭✭✭P_1


    mmcn90 wrote: »
    I doubt any off-licences in dublin are doing this. Serving alcohol like this would not really count as for off-site consumption and cause problems with licencing. I'm pretty sure off-licences must serve alcohol in a sealed container for at home consumption.

    I'd see no problem with them filling and capping bottles though. Like pubs used to do with guinness.

    The jug was sealed though, imagine a 2 litre milk bottle, that is how it was sealed.


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    #5
    BeerNut
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 11,818 Mod ✭✭✭✭BeerNut


    pithater1 wrote: »
    if not, why not?
    The extra investment in equipment and space would be the main one, I'd say, followed by the need for fast turnover, the unreliability of supply and the lack of customer demand. I don't know what the margins would be on such a model, but you can probably throw that in on the end as well.

    But if it's a genius idea which just hasn't been tried yet: the market is all yours.

    My beer blog | The Twitter | My other beer blog



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    #6
    P_1
    Registered Users Posts: 14,681 ✭✭✭✭P_1


    BeerNut wrote: »

    But if it's a genius idea which just hasn't been tried yet: the market is all yours.

    Any chance of a lend of some seed money :D

    Although I can't imagine the majority of Dublin's off licence patrons being quite 'civilised' enough for something like this to take off just yet.

    Perhaps in a few years one may dream...


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    #7
    irish_goat
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 5,778 Mod ✭✭✭✭irish_goat


    Maybe it's something the craft beer pubs could do using growlers? Brewdog do it in their bars anyway.


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    #8
    CiaranC
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,300 ✭✭✭CiaranC


    BeerNut wrote: »
    The extra investment in equipment and space would be the main one, I'd say, followed by the need for fast turnover, the unreliability of supply and the lack of customer demand. I don't know what the margins would be on such a model, but you can probably throw that in on the end as well.

    But if it's a genius idea which just hasn't been tried yet: the market is all yours.
    Surely it would take bottling out of the equation, allow the craft brewers to sell kegs direct to the off-licence, and be cheaper for everyone?

    Unreliability of supply is not a problem when you are constantly rotating the taps. As for demand, craft beer seems to be taking off in Dublin in a big way no? I would love to walk down to somewhere like Redmonds and buy beer this way, its HUGE here in NZ. There are always queues at the taps.

    Does kegged/casked beer "go off" quicker than bottled beer?


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    #9
    Mr Simpson
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,332 ✭✭✭Mr Simpson


    CiaranC wrote: »
    Does kegged/casked beer "go off" quicker than bottled beer?

    Once a keg or cask is open, its freshness is compromised. A bottle is a single portion and remains sealed.


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    #10
    Martyn1989
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,561 ✭✭✭Martyn1989


    Growlers are half a gallon, if it wasn't all drank in one sitting how long would the beer stay fresh?

    Ive heard American micros tap rooms filling growlers directly from their taps and wondered how the beers carbonation would hold up?

    These guys at the Wild Rose Brewery in Calgary sell their beer in these party pigs (http://www.wildrosebrewery.com/party-pig/mini-keg.html), $50 ($40 of that is a deposit) for 8.5l of their beer. Seems like a cool little gadget aswell.


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    #11
    CiaranC
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,300 ✭✭✭CiaranC


    Martyn1989 wrote: »
    Growlers are half a gallon, if it wasn't all drank in one sitting how long would the beer stay fresh?

    Ive heard American micros tap rooms filling growlers directly from their taps and wondered how the beers carbonation would hold up?

    These guys at the Wild Rose Brewery in Calgary sell their beer in these party pigs (http://www.wildrosebrewery.com/party-pig/mini-keg.html), $50 ($40 of that is a deposit) for 8.5l of their beer. Seems like a cool little gadget aswell.

    Regional wines where I am sell plastic 1L, 1.25L, 2L and 2.25L riggers, which they put a label on and can then be reused. Freshness is not an issue.

    rigger%20shot%20oct%202011%20thumb.jpg

    They also do glass growlers

    Hop-City-growlers.jpg


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    #12
    Krusty_Clown
    Registered Users Posts: 19,505 ✭✭✭✭Krusty_Clown


    Martyn1989 wrote: »
    $50 ($40 of that is a deposit) for 8.5l of their beer.
    Cost is $50 for a full Pig + $40 refundable deposit

    It's cheap, but not that cheap! Great idea, but it would really only work for brewers/brew-pubs, such as The Porterhouse, Franciscan Well, Messrs Maguire, etc. Can't see any craft breweries being issues with licenses to sell direct to the public.


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    #13
    BeerNut
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 11,818 Mod ✭✭✭✭BeerNut


    CiaranC wrote: »
    cheaper for everyone?
    Someone suddenly having to buy taps and cooling equipment and serving vessels, find space, deal with ullage and possibly set gas up as well won't find it cheaper. They'll be way out of pocket before a drop is poured. And if it doesn't catch on massively, quickly, they won't see that money again.
    CiaranC wrote: »
    Unreliability of supply is not a problem when you are constantly rotating the taps.
    So fill the stock room with beer that isn't for sale yet? Not many offies set up for that, I'd say.
    CiaranC wrote: »
    craft beer seems to be taking off in Dublin in a big way no?
    No. A relatively big way, but it's still a niche product bought by people who know where they're going to buy it. And you can pretty much buy the same things in all the specialist niche shops and bars. If I want some Metalman Pale Ale, I'll go to one of about four pubs. I'm not interested in a flatter, warmer version which I have to carry somewhere, even if it would be slightly cheaper.
    CiaranC wrote: »
    I would love to walk down to somewhere like Redmonds and buy beer this way
    I'm just picturing the look on Jimmy Redmond's face when you suggest it to him. Unless you have a queue of people going all the way down to The Barge, cash in hand, ready to buy, why would he even consider it?
    CiaranC wrote: »
    its HUGE here in NZ.
    That's cultural, though. You can't there from here. Or at least, nobody is going to spend their own money getting us from here to there.

    My theory is that growler culture is largely a function of poor public transport and low population density. Ireland might be guilty of both, but most people in Dublin can go out for a few pints and get bus or train home. Not so easy in NZ or the US. Hence buying draught beer you can drive with.
    CiaranC wrote: »
    Does kegged/casked beer "go off" quicker than bottled beer?
    Of course. Once it's tapped you'd want to be shifting it in a couple of weeks. A couple of days for non-breathered cask.

    My beer blog | The Twitter | My other beer blog



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    #14
    Martyn1989
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,561 ✭✭✭Martyn1989


    CiaranC wrote: »
    Regional wines where I am sell plastic 1L, 1.25L, 2L and 2.25L riggers, which they put a label on and can then be reused. Freshness is not an issue.



    They also do glass growlers

    I meant once opened. If the beer is being poured directly from a regular tap it would surely be aerated at least a small bit which would cause it not to stay as fresh for as long? Do they fill them up a different way like a bottling gun or something?


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    #15
    P_1
    Registered Users Posts: 14,681 ✭✭✭✭P_1


    The setup in the off licence in Richmond basically consisted of 3 tapped casks set up on their sides on a unit. It occupied roughly the same floor space as a shop display of multipack bottles.

    They were selling the 4 pint jug for 7 pounds.


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    #16
    CiaranC
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,300 ✭✭✭CiaranC


    BeerNut wrote: »
    If I want some Metalman Pale Ale, I'll go to one of about four pubs. I'm not interested in a flatter, warmer version which I have to carry somewhere, even if it would be slightly cheaper.
    Off licence beer is not 'slightly cheaper', Im not sure where you are getting that from? Not everyone has the luxury of hanging around in pubs all week. Home drinking is getting bigger all the time.
    I'm just picturing the look on Jimmy Redmond's face when you suggest it to him. Unless you have a queue of people going all the way down to The Barge, cash in hand, ready to buy, why would he even consider it?
    Why would he consider it? Because its a proven business model elsewhere. You seem quite dismissive.
    My theory is that growler culture is largely a function of poor public transport and low population density. Ireland might be guilty of both, but most people in Dublin can go out for a few pints and get bus or train home. Not so easy in NZ or the US. Hence buying draught beer you can drive with.
    Your theory is way out, Regional is in the centre of the city and sells most of its beer to foot traffic. The beer is not flat or warm, its fresh draught beer which is poured and drank within a few hours and is at a price point much cheaper than the (excellent) craft beer bar scene here.
    Martyn1989 wrote:
    I meant once opened. If the beer is being poured directly from a regular tap it would surely be aerated at least a small bit which would cause it not to stay as fresh for as long? Do they fill them up a different way like a bottling gun or something?
    The taps are not like bar taps, they are long stainless steel stems that reach to the bottom off the rigger and fill it slowly that way. The growlers have rubber tops to which you insert the 'stem'. Ill take a picture when I am down that way later.

    The target market is a young city living crowd. I walk three minutes, pour my beer into a glass and drink it. Its not the sort of place you buy a huge vat of beer you keep to drink over the course of a week.


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    #17
    Martyn1989
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,561 ✭✭✭Martyn1989


    CiaranC wrote: »
    The taps are not like bar taps, they are long stainless steel stems that reach to the bottom off the rigger and fill it slowly that way. The growlers have rubber tops to which you insert the 'stem'. Ill take a picture when I am down that way later.

    The target market is a young city living crowd. I walk three minutes, pour my beer into a glass and drink it. Its not the sort of place you buy a huge vat of beer you keep to drink over the course of a week.

    Yeh this is what I was getting at, they're called beer guns and they allow you to bottle beer from a keg without ruining it. Beer bottled this way can be stored for a good while longer. I cant see the Porterhouse justifying this when they are selling their bottles on off sale and it involves new equipment etc. I doubt L. Mulligans or Against the Grain would like to send their customers home with beer at a reduced price when those customers are happy to sit and have a meal and a few beers at their current prices.


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    #18
    noby
    Registered Users Posts: 2,114 ✭✭✭noby


    The Bierhaus in Cork has it's own branded growlers that you can have filled at pretty-much off-licence rate, afaik.

    I get the feeling, though, that we're a long way from off-licences doing this sort of thing.


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    #19
    BeerNut
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 11,818 Mod ✭✭✭✭BeerNut


    CiaranC wrote: »
    Off licence beer is not 'slightly cheaper', Im not sure where you are getting that from?
    It's a guess. I would hazard that draught beer in an Irish offy would work out a bit cheaper than in a pub due to lower overheads, but probably not by much.
    CiaranC wrote: »
    Because its a proven business model elsewhere.
    Elsewhere is pretty much irrelevant unless elsewhere has the same licensing laws and beer market.
    CiaranC wrote: »
    You seem quite dismissive.
    The OP asked a question. I'm trying to answer it as fully as possible.
    CiaranC wrote: »
    The taps are not like bar taps
    Sourcing, from scratch, a dispense technology that has never been used before and which no-one in the country knows how to install or maintain is another additional cost. The OP's cask system would be more feasible, but you'd want the turnover to support it, and there's not a pub in the country can manage more than three cask beers at a time, and that's with breathers.

    My beer blog | The Twitter | My other beer blog



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    #20
    schemingbohemia
    Registered Users Posts: 5,606 ✭✭✭schemingbohemia


    I passed by that place on the way back from Twickenham, I presume it's this place
    http://www.realale.com/
    The thing is, it's a great idea yes, but that place is also an outlier from general offie trends in the UK, if it's not being done regularly over there I can't see it catching on here particularly where craft beer is still microscopic compared to the UK.


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    #21
    P_1
    Registered Users Posts: 14,681 ✭✭✭✭P_1


    schemingbohemia wrote: »
    I passed by that place on the way back from Twickenham, I presume it's this place
    http://www.realale.com/
    The thing is, it's a great idea yes, but that place is also an outlier from general offie trends in the UK, if it's not being done regularly over there I can't see it catching on here particularly where craft beer is still microscopic compared to the UK.

    That's the place alright, to be honest our immediate reaction was that while it was a fantastic place it would be doubtful if there'd be much of a market for it in Dublin.


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    #22
    eurokev
    Registered Users Posts: 964 ✭✭✭eurokev


    I work for an off licence group and we thought of doing something similar but with spirits. Eg offer small measures of expensive whiskeys/speciallity liquors etc in portions so people would not have to spend 60 plus on a bottle. However when we did some research and made legal enquiries we found out that there was fierce obstacles to overcome mainly with precise measures and licencing laws. I wouldnt be so sure that its an actually economically possible or entirely legal venture myself.

    Personally I dont like the idea of doing it with cask beers. The quality cant possibly be the same as a properly bottled vacuumed beer. And if this took off over here it wouldnt be long before the big boys took over and started offering flaggins of bud for €2, leading to making half our streets impassable and the other half piss stenched. As well as closing 90% of pubs in the country

    Just a bad idea all round IMO


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