Atheism/Existence of God Debates (Please Read OP)

Anyone who has rejected God faces the consequences of rejecting Him. Everyone who rejects Him faces this. There will be a judgement for all humanity. Christians have already accepted Jesus as their Lord and as a result have been saved by His grace.

PDN is saying essentially that through the world around us, and through looking at the Bible, we can see God's faithfulness around us, we can see how the world shows signs of God's work, in how we operate as human beings, and also in the mere idea of existence itself. We can also look very clearly to the history of Jesus, the early Christian church, archaeology amongst a lot of other things to see how Christianity conforms to reality.

We've not been left without any scrape of a reason for believing in Jesus irrespective as to how much people would like to think so.

philologos wrote: »

Anyone who has rejected God faces the consequences of rejecting Him. Everyone who rejects Him faces this. There will be a judgement for all humanity. Christians have already accepted Jesus as their Lord and as a result have been saved by His grace.

PDN is saying essentially that through the world around us, and through looking at the Bible, we can see God's faithfulness around us, we can see how the world shows signs of God's work, in how we operate as human beings, and also in the mere idea of existence itself. We can also look very clearly to the history of Jesus, the early Christian church, archaeology amongst a lot of other things to see how Christianity conforms to reality.

We've not been left without any scrape of a reason for believing in Jesus irrespective as to how much people would like to think so.

I see no evidence of a creator looking around this planet. none at all. I see barley controlled Chaos. Selfish exploitation, starving humans and the threat of an all out war. I see some of the most guilty countries of the above also being some of the most religious.

We have explained how we as a race and all other animals came about without requiring a creator. It's simply not needed as an explanation any more.

Once we saw lighting, volcanoes, earthquakes and storms as gods wrath, now we know what they are. We have a fairly robust explanation for how the universe began, though, unlike religion, it's open to revision and correction.

You see god everywhere, it's understandable as you have obviously invested a lot of time to your faith. It is not however some self evident fact that I just do not get. No amount of reading the bible will make me see the world differently. People who want, or need to find god will find god.

I will not suffer for rejecting one of the religions that happens to be around while I'm on this earth. If I was to fear that wrath I would have to pray to every god currently praised and every god ever to be invented in human history. I like to enjoy myself so I do not dedicate time to pleasing other peoples imaginations. It's simply not an option.

I don't know if a leap is involved so much. As much as I like Soren Kierkegaard who came up with that idea, I don't believe it's an accurate representation of what Christianity is like. Paul in Romans tells us that by the very Creation itself God has made Himself evident to us (Romans 1:20). I believe that Christianity makes better sense of reality than other forms of thought, including atheism.

Christianity presents the world as fallen through sin. There's plenty of evidence of that around us. Pick up a newspaper tomorrow morning and read through it, and see if you can't find me anything evil in there. I know that looking back through my life, I can't say that I'm entirely pure of what is evil. Indeed John tells us in one of his letters that anyone who does claim this makes God out to be a liar (1 John 1:10).

We can see evidence of God's existence in pondering the question of who made us and why we are here. We can also see evidence of God's existence in how ethical action works. We largely work on universal ethical propositions of right and wrong, even if we claim to deny this. If we are wronged, we don't claim that the person might think he is right, we claim that they have wronged us. We presume that it is objectively clear that this is so. This is reason to believe that God has given us a conscience in common, we expect that the other knows what is good, and what is evil for this reason.

God has given us an abundance of evidence through archaeological sites in the Biblical texts agreeing with His word, through historical events external to the Bible agreeing largely with His word, and people largely agreeing with His word. God has also given us an abundance of reasons to believe and trust in Him due to Him making Jesus manifest. We have Old Testament prophesy telling us of Jesus' life about 600 years before it happened. We have several historical accounts of Jesus' life external to the Bible.

God has given us good reason to trust in the death and resurrection of Jesus through the history of the early church. Why would the disciples after Jesus' death simply go around claiming that Jesus had rose from the dead if it hadn't happened? Why would they risk death in Asia Minor for a lie? We are told that there were up to 500 witnesses of the risen Jesus, were they all deluded?

We also have the case for the authenticity of God's word. Could it all be fiction? Arguably, but if one works through Paul's narrative as a convert in Galatians as to how he became a Christian, and given how consistent his letters are with Gospel events it seems unlikely. If you do the maths from Paul's life in Galatians 1 and 2 and then compare it with Jesus' death and resurrection it is striking how similar Paul's account of Christianity is with other accounts of Christianity. It leaves very little time for the Apostles before him to conjure together an elaborate tale. It also leaves very little reason to go out and risk death.

Also, another reason why I regard the New Testament as being reliable is simply because of how honest it is. It isn't written by people who wish to lord their authority over the world. The Gospels present the disciples in a humbling light. As people who are largely clueless about the big picture until the end. People who are stubborn and divisive and people who are sinners just like you and I. The Gospels also present some things which would have been embarrassing in Jewish and Roman society, such as women being the first to the tomb. This wouldn't be a detail that you would have included to present Christianity in the best way to Jewish and Roman people. The alternative is that it is true.

There are plenty of reasons to believe in Jesus if we're just simply willing to look into it. His word is faithful and accurate to this day. We can be thankful for that in the 21st century that God's word still holds up strongly. I care about it and I long for it to prosper, I believe it presents a more honest and reasonable narrative than anything any new-atheist can ever offer me. It is a life transforming truth that will change our lives forever if we accept it. Jesus gave us a new relationship with God so that we can live for Him and dwell with Him for eternity. That's incredible, and there's plenty of reason to believe it.

RichieC: You mention war. Jesus very clearly mentions that in the time between His death and His return that there would be wars, and rumours of wars, famines, etc. These things shouldn't surprise Christians, because they are signs leading up to the point in time when Jesus will return to judge, and usher in the new Creation. The very fact that these things happen, are a sign that Jesus' return is immanent, and that there will be judgement.

PDN wrote: »

That's fine, so you reach a position (atheism) by faith. We all assess evidence differently.

You may twist it anyway you like. My stance is not a rejection of god so much as not taking is seriously enough to merit a belief.

I take the fact that so many people believ in it serious

We are not born believing in god only to reject it later on. It is an idea, or meme which we are forced by coercion and propaganda into having to take seriously.

"it's a faith that there is no god" - it's simply flawed logic, and manipulating the debate in a way that stacks it in your favour.

Again, I say. It is not a default human condition to be faithful to a god. One can actually easily dismiss ideas that are just beyond the scope of reality. Is it faith I do not believe in UFOs? Thor? Santa Clause?

PDN wrote: »

So I abandoned atheism (enforced on me as a child) and chose to become a Christian. And you, with some wonderful wishful thinking, ascribe that to coercion and propaganda? :rolleyes:

Well the atheism was enforced on you. so evidently, yes.

ISAW wrote: »

So what? you dont have to. while it is necessary for debate logic qnd reason is not sufficient for society. We need other things such as values or morals or judgement.
The societies based on you "there is no god " philosophy all perished after causing genocide and economic collapse and contributing nothing to civilization. christianity thrived and grew and built things and is still around.

All these states you speak of were not based on "there is no god" they were communist authoritarian regimes. the leaders sought to replace traditional religion with one of their own, namely the state/great leader/economic system is the new god.

You cannot blame atheism on this. Even though, you do so regularly, it appears you have that talking point on speed dial.

Atheism does not cause genocide or economic collapse. centralised power that ignores the masses in favour of military spending causes the latter. Revolt by said or fear of leads to genocides and mass murder.

I consider my self hard atheist, yet, I do not favour state sanctioned atheism. rather, secular governance. People should be free to worship whatever and whoever they like. The state should not promote any religion.