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Solar panels

  • 10-09-2011 12:56pm
    #1
    kitkat.3b4t
    Registered Users Posts: 154 ✭✭


    Hi
    I am thinking of getting a solar panel installed to heat our extension - circa 450 sq feet. We have gas for the rest of the house which cost us circa €3500 for last year. We cant really afford a bill this high again and want to at least use a cheaper type of energy for the extension. I would really appreciate it if anyone could give me some advice or info on solar energy. Thank you:)


Comments

  • #2
    homer911
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,141 ✭✭✭homer911


    I'm sure others will say that Solar Panels for space heating are a waste of money - on the days you want the heating, the sun isn't shining!


  • #3
    kitkat.3b4t
    Registered Users Posts: 154 ✭✭kitkat.3b4t


    I think what I want advice on is thermodynamic solar panels. In the promational info I read they say that they work day and night in all weather conditions. Could this be true? Has anyone experience of them?
    progress.gif


  • #4
    Do-more
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,748 ✭✭✭Do-more


    Have a look here for some links to other threads on these panels. The jury is still out I think it is fair to say.

    invest4deepvalue.com



  • #5
    BryanF
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators Posts: 10,143 Mod ✭✭✭✭BryanF


    kitkat.3b4t wrote: »
    I think what I want advice on is thermodynamic solar panels. In the promational info I read they say that they work day and night in all weather conditions. Could this be true? Has anyone experience of them?
    progress.gif
    you need help. and not just re solar panels, :) 3.5g per year is silly money to spend on heating. get an energy assessor to look at your overall energy requirements :)


  • #6
    ccsolar
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 423 ✭✭ccsolar


    Solar for heating your home is too expensive, the pay back time is 10yrs +
    You need the solar for dhw and this will help to reduce your Gas bill
    BryanF is giving you good advice.

    Cc


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  • #7
    kitkat.3b4t
    Registered Users Posts: 154 ✭✭kitkat.3b4t


    ccsolar wrote: »
    Solar for heating your home is too expensive, the pay back time is 10yrs +
    You need the solar for dhw and this will help to reduce your Gas bill
    BryanF is giving you good advice.

    Cc

    Thanks for the reply, but what is dhw. Also where would I find an energy assessor?


  • #8
    Do-more
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,748 ✭✭✭Do-more


    kitkat.3b4t wrote: »
    Thanks for the reply, but what is dhw. Also where would I find an energy assessor?
    DHW = Domestic Hot Water.

    invest4deepvalue.com



  • #9
    kitkat.3b4t
    Registered Users Posts: 154 ✭✭kitkat.3b4t


    Do-more wrote: »
    DHW = Domestic Hot Water.

    Thanks for your reply. We dont really use hot water as such. The diswasher and washing machine heat the water when in use and we have instant showers. We have stopped taking baths altogether because our heating bill was so big last year and the emersion was heated direclty by the gass burner - we have had an electric switch put on the tank lately but have become so use to showers we rarley use it.

    So unless hot water can be used in the raditor system I dont see the point of heating water. I really dont know much about all this.


  • #10
    BryanF
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators Posts: 10,143 Mod ✭✭✭✭BryanF


    kitkat.3b4t wrote: »
    Thanks for your reply. We dont really use hot water as such. The diswasher and washing machine heat the water when in use and we have instant showers. We have stopped taking baths altogether because our heating bill was so big last year and the emersion was heated direclty by the gass burner - we have had an electric switch put on the tank lately but have become so use to showers we rarley use it.

    So unless hot water can be used in the raditor system I dont see the point of heating water. I really dont know much about all this.
    kitkat, what part of the country are you in? I'm sure if you tell us, somebody can recommend a good energy consultant in your area. or if you'd prefer: https://ndber.seai.ie/Pass/assessors/search.aspx

    Id like to bring you back to your 3.5g per year on energy. that's crazy.

    may i recommend you start here http://www.seai.ie/Power_of_One/


  • #11
    kitkat.3b4t
    Registered Users Posts: 154 ✭✭kitkat.3b4t


    Thanks very much for those links. I feel like im learning a lot. When I tell other people what we spend on heating they cant believe it, i can hardly believe it myself. We have LPG bought in bulk and I see that it is one third more expensive than oil. It will be great to get an assessment of the building - the kitchen is the only room we hang out in and be only keep it at 19-20 degrees centigrade. We had to wear coats, hats and gloves inside last winter and it still cost a fortune. There must be something wrong somewhere!!!


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  • #12
    Walkingstick
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8 ✭Walkingstick


    kitkat.3b4t wrote: »
    Thanks very much for those links. I feel like im learning a lot. When I tell other people what we spend on heating they cant believe it, i can hardly believe it myself. We have LPG bought in bulk and I see that it is one third more expensive than oil. It will be great to get an assessment of the building - the kitchen is the only room we hang out in and be only keep it at 19-20 degrees centigrade. We had to wear coats, hats and gloves inside last winter and it still cost a fortune. There must be something wrong somewhere!!!



    Forget about solar panels for space heating. You can't get anywhere enough heat from the sun to heat a building when you need it, i.e. Winter. I am an engineer working in the energy sector so I know a little about this. Here is a suggestion, write a letter to your LPG supplier asking them for assistance to improve your energy efficiency. If you use Flogas, I know they have an Energy Solutions team dedicated to assisting customers. To reduce fuel usage you need to think about reducing drafts, improving insulation in Walls or attic. LPG is an expensive fuel, you are obviously not near a natural gas supply. I can see many people fitting wood burners with back boilers to reduce their energy bills. I'm sure there would be many ways to reduce your energy spend. The only way is to get an experienced person to actually look at your house and give you advice. Be very very careful, there are many so called energy assessors out there who actually know very little about heat transfer. I have completed the Sustainable Energy Ireland energy assessors course for commercial and industrial buildings and I was amazed at how little others knew about energy. Anyway you sound like a decent person, I wish you luck with reducing you spend.


  • #13
    quentingargan
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,627 ✭✭✭quentingargan


    You could also try the ESB Halo scheme. They have qualified and independent energy assessors who will visit your house and quote you for remedial work (boiler replacement, attic and wall insulation, double glazing etc.) They can also quote you for solar, but if you don't use much hot water, that probably won't be part of the low hanging fruit on a house with heating costs in your range.

    Their prices are quite competitive, and if you don't have expertise yourself, you are less likely to get ripped off..


  • #14
    BryanF
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators Posts: 10,143 Mod ✭✭✭✭BryanF


    without going to far of topic Walkingstick & Quentingargan are on to a big issue here. My folks had an ESB halo guy out.. well.. the recommendation sheet came back with pump the cavity and put in solar thermal.. etc.. even though they already had solar thermal and the cavity pumped:)
    so i guess kitkat, I'd ask for recommendations based on energy/cost savings from happy customers :)


  • #15
    championc
    Registered Users Posts: 6,185 ✭✭✭championc


    €3.5k per annum is complete madness. It nearly sounds like a completely inefficient boiler. Are your rads balanced - does each rad deliver heat equally around the house (i.e. some get boiling when others barely heat up) ?

    All rads should have TRV's (Thermostatic Radiator Valves) to give you temperature control PER RAD. It sounds also like your heating system was heating the immersion cylinder but possibly without any controls. Ideally, you should have a gate valve and a temp sensor strapped half (or less) way down the tank to shut the valve off taking head from the rads circuit once the cylinder heated to a certain temperature. I'm sure heating a cylinder with water - but in a controlled way, is a hell of a lot cheaper than electric showers (you may just be transferring your costs from gas to electric)

    For Balancing, I'm no expert but I did my own balancing job on my rads.
    1) On every rad should be two valves - a Thermostatic Valve on one end and a Lockshield Valve on the other.
    2) Get to know the sequence of your rads on whatever number of circuits you have
    3) Set Thermostatic Valves to their hotest setting (fully open)
    4) Take the cover off the Lockshield Valves and then with a pliers, close the Lockshield Valve nearest to the boiler down to about 1/4 open, the next one in sequence more open and so on along the run of rads and the last ones in the line, the valve should be fully open.
    5) Fire up the heating and all rads should be heating somewhat simultaneously. You can now start tweaking the degree of open or closed that the valves are until you get to a reasonably balanced setup

    I did mine this way and fired up the heating over a few days until I got things just right.


    C


  • #16
    kitkat.3b4t
    Registered Users Posts: 154 ✭✭kitkat.3b4t


    Thanks for all the advice everyone. I had an assessor call out a few days ago and he advised cavity wall insulation and upgrade insulation in attic. I will also get thermostats fitted on the rads and I have a lot of lime scale in pipes so will have to get that sorted. Hopefully I will get things sorted before winter kicks in.


  • #17
    chris85
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,502 ✭✭✭chris85


    kitkat.3b4t wrote: »
    Thanks for all the advice everyone. I had an assessor call out a few days ago and he advised cavity wall insulation and upgrade insulation in attic. I will also get thermostats fitted on the rads and I have a lot of lime scale in pipes so will have to get that sorted. Hopefully I will get things sorted before winter kicks in.

    Thats a better plan. No point in producing your own energy with a relatively high initial investment and then loosing it all due to poor insulation. Insulation sorted for you, look at your windows and all that but I am sure the assessor gave you the correct advice.

    You will see instant savings this way also.


  • #18
    WastedSpace
    Closed Accounts Posts: 44 ✭WastedSpace


    Still not totally convinced by solar panels myself - the whole idea is a "long term" investment and I'm not willing to invest in something long term that clearly is a risky business given the lack of sunlight over here.


  • #19
    Do-more
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,748 ✭✭✭Do-more


    WastedSpace wrote: »
    Still not totally convinced by solar panels myself - the whole idea is a "long term" investment and I'm not willing to invest in something long term that clearly is a risky business given the lack of sunlight over here.

    Solar panels are really only justified if you have already addressed all the other aspects of your home which offer a better payback, things like for example upgrading insulation, fitting an energy efficient heating system etc.

    It's really only at that stage that anyone should be considering fitting solar panels.

    But as for your last point there is plenty of sunlight in Ireland to produce a large portion of a households hot water demand for a large portion of the year.

    As with any investment you should figure out what the actual savings are going to be before making the purchase and deciding if the expense is worthwhile or could be better spent on some other item

    invest4deepvalue.com



  • #20
    quentingargan
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,627 ✭✭✭quentingargan


    I'd agree with Do-More about needing to establish the priorities in energy saving, and pick the low-hanging fruit first.

    Solar panels are not a "risky business". They work reliably and if the system is designed properly, they can provide 60% of the hot water required by a household. The bulk of this is provided during the season when the heating is not othewise in use, so this portion of the hot water is more valuable.

    But I often wonder about the need to rigidly calculate payback times. To quote DIY wind enthusiast Hugh Piggott "Why should it necessarily compete against cheap power from polluting engines? …The satisfaction of generating your own power, independently, from a clean endless source, is hard to quantify".

    For me, there is added pleasure in having a hot bath, knowing that the heat came from sunlight, and not from some murky oil well in the Middle East. :)


  • #21
    about2build
    Registered Users Posts: 166 ✭✭about2build


    <SNIP>

    Mod edit: Please dont use other people's threads to post off topic. Start a new thread.


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  • #22
    Qualitymark
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,824 ✭✭✭Qualitymark


    Could anyone with solar panels for hot water advise us through the winter as to how well it's working? I know these solar panels give great hot water in summer, but what about when the weather's cooler?


  • #23
    paddyandy
    Site Banned Posts: 2,037 ✭✭✭paddyandy


    Is there a deliberate policy to make understanding it all as difficult as possible?I'm still trying to figure it all out.


  • #24
    homer911
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,141 ✭✭✭homer911


    Their performance is determined by solar radiation, not ambient temperature. On a clear day in winter you can get almost as good performance as you do in summer, but it really has to be clear - ie not a sunny hazy day - and we dont get too many of these in winter it must be said!


  • #25
    quentingargan
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,627 ✭✭✭quentingargan


    homer911 wrote: »
    Their performance is determined by solar radiation, not ambient temperature. On a clear day in winter you can get almost as good performance as you do in summer, but it really has to be clear - ie not a sunny hazy day - and we dont get too many of these in winter it must be said!

    There are a couple of other factors that diminish output in winter besides the levels of solar radiation;

    Vacuum -vs- Flatplate     - Vacuum flasks are better insulated and will lose less heat to the air. If you imagine trying to get a flatplate up to 80C, with bitterly cold air outside, you can see that heat loss might be close to the level of heat gain. However, on bright cool days, vaccum tubes will work well enough.

    Angle of Roof - The sun is much lower in the sky in winter. Usually the roof pitch will be 30 to 45 degrees, and this doesn't suit the levels of winter sunshine.

    Overall, if you have vacuum tubes, you will get some heat gain on cold winter days, but over 90% of your useful energy from a solar panel will come between spring, summer & autumn. In the case of flatplates, the operating season will be a bit shorter.


  • #26
    Qualitymark
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,824 ✭✭✭Qualitymark


    quentingargan wrote: »

    Angle of Roof - The sun is much lower in the sky in winter. Usually the roof pitch will be 30 to 45 degrees, and this doesn't suit the levels of winter sunshine.

    What angle would suit it?


  • #27
    championc
    Registered Users Posts: 6,185 ✭✭✭championc


    If you are worried about whether it will pay for itself or not, have a look at where you would propose to mount 30 tubes (minimum) on your roof.

    - Can this section be hit by sunlight (if it shines) for about 8+ hours of the day.

    I'm no expert but If yes, then I'd say you are a perfect candidate. People from Dublin to Galway, from Derry to Kerry, are getting pretty much the same results on average across the year.

    Remember that without something like this, it takes energy (gas or electricity) and therefore MONEY for every degree that you wish to heat water by. So if your water starts it's heating process at 20 deg C rather than maybe 10 deg C from the rising main, that's 10 deg less work (and cost) that has to be used.


    C


  • #28
    muckyhands
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 407 ✭✭muckyhands


    Hi

    My boyfriend got a solar panel system in that heats the water 24/7.

    We get all the hot water we need and the water temp.
    is a constant 55 degrees C as thats what it is set at.Even on a cold wet and windy day like today,we have piping hot water on tap.


  • #29
    freddyuk
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,111 ✭✭✭freddyuk


    muckyhands wrote: »
    Hi

    My boyfriend got a solar panel system in that heats the water 24/7.

    We get all the hot water we need and the water temp.
    is a constant 55 degrees C as thats what it is set at.Even on a cold wet and windy day like today,we have piping hot water on tap.

    The post is about solar heated water not electrically heated water. Your system is using electrcity on a cold wet windy day. Most solar panels will provide a degree of heat on the dullest days but the back up is likely to be oil boiler or WBS not the immersion heater. If you can could check the outlet temperature of your panel it would be ambient?? Would be a good idea to fully insulate all the pipes on your system as that would save your electricity bill also.


  • #30
    BryanF
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators Posts: 10,143 Mod ✭✭✭✭BryanF


    muckyhands wrote: »
    Hi

    My boyfriend got a solar panel system in that heats the water 24/7.

    We get all the hot water we need and the water temp.
    is a constant 55 degrees C as thats what it is set at.Even on a cold wet and windy day like today,we have piping hot water on tap.
    there are several people here who have looked at these systems and one or two who have installed them. as the post above said they are more like heat pumps than solar HW panels. (i've been lead to believe this is SEAI's fault and not the products)

    could i ask you/your fella to give us some feed back next summer after the winter heating season on what the electrical use of the panels/your HW is.. thanks for your help..:)

    the problem is if you ring the companies selling these units, they wont give any details on electrical consumption or data of where such systems have been installed.


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  • #31
    muckyhands
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 407 ✭✭muckyhands


    freddyuk wrote: »
    The post is about solar heated water not electrically heated water. Your system is using electrcity on a cold wet windy day. Most solar panels will provide a degree of heat on the dullest days but the back up is likely to be oil boiler or WBS not the immersion heater. If you can could check the outlet temperature of your panel it would be ambient?? Would be a good idea to fully insulate all the pipes on your system as that would save your electricity bill also.


    Thanks, the pipes are fully insulated as its a new build. We dont use immersion at all- it has nothing to do with immersion at all and the immersion would only be a back up if solar system failed or turned off for servicing.


  • #32
    Qualitymark
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,824 ✭✭✭Qualitymark


    muckyhands wrote: »
    Thanks, the pipes are fully insulated as its a new build. We dont use immersion at all- it has nothing to do with immersion at all and the immersion would only be a back up if solar system failed or turned off for servicing.

    How much did your panels cost to instal, which way do they face and what slant are they at, are they on a one- or two-storey house, and what kind of panels are they, please? And where in the country are you?


  • #33
    Do-more
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,748 ✭✭✭Do-more


    @muckyhands It would be great if your boyfriend could fit an electricity usage monitor on the live cable of the supply to his unit.

    If you Google for "wireless energy monitors with usb" you can find some that will store the electricity usage which you can then download to a computer and their free software will graph energy usage day by day. Depending on which one and where he gets it, it will cost less than €55.

    It will give him clear data as to what the cost of running this kind of system for hot water really is and it would be invaluable information for others considering getting this type of system.

    invest4deepvalue.com



  • #34
    freddyuk
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,111 ✭✭✭freddyuk


    Here is a link to a previous post on this subject

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?threadid=2055918952

    Still no response from the request to post results? We need someone to post some meaningful results. Anyone??


  • #35
    BryanF
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators Posts: 10,143 Mod ✭✭✭✭BryanF


    Mods can we change the title of the thread to Thermodynamic Solar panels to as most of us seem to be talking about a variation of the 'heat pump solar panel' not the regular solar thermal panels...


  • #36
    celticcrash
    Registered Users Posts: 850 ✭✭✭celticcrash


    Thermodynamic Solar panels
    What the sales people dont tell you, that there is an electrical heating element in the compressor and it runs at 300w upwards.
    So if your water is nice and hot in the dark cold mornings, its not the solar panal.
    Its the electrical element in the compressor.
    I will leave it up to someone more educated than myself to do the maths.


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  • #37
    freddyuk
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,111 ✭✭✭freddyuk


    celticcrash wrote: »
    Thermodynamic Solar panels
    What the sales people dont tell you, that there is an electrical heating element in the compressor and it runs at 300w upwards.
    So if your water is nice and hot in the dark cold mornings, its not the solar panal.
    Its the electrical element in the compressor.
    I will leave it up to someone more educated than myself to do the maths.

    Sadly anyone that has one will not listen!!:D


  • #38
    rosepaddy
    Registered Users Posts: 12 ✭rosepaddy


    kitkat.3b4t wrote: »
    I think what I want advice on is thermodynamic solar panels. In the promational info I read they say that they work day and night in all weather conditions. Could this be true? Has anyone experience of them?
    progress.gif

    hi, look into this properly before you jump in, nowhere that i am aware of on this planet can solar get radiation from tthe moon, so you are purchasing either a poor heat pump combined with an immersion, this product runs like a fridge with a gas inside ??????renewable also you need to check that this will meet the requirements for a grant i am aware for many all too late that this product does not meet many a requirement
    <SNIP>


  • #39
    rosepaddy
    Registered Users Posts: 12 ✭rosepaddy


    BryanF wrote: »
    Mods can we change the title of the thread to Thermodynamic Solar panels to as most of us seem to be talking about a variation of the 'heat pump solar panel' not the regular solar thermal panels...


    i agree with you totally,but really it should be questioned why these are catagorised as solar, when heat pumps have been excluded from all grants and these products are being passed albeit limited as the C O P are not so great as much as i am aware of, the claims that the supply not only dhw all year round but are now capable of doing all the heating as well, roll on -5 degree temperatures and we will see how efficent they are,anyone getting this should insist on a meter from the product ,i dont think they come with it ????????


  • #40
    championc
    Registered Users Posts: 6,185 ✭✭✭championc


    I saw these thermodynamic solar panels on About the House a few months back. I was curious. Householders were delighted in that they were off out on a cloudy day and basically came back to a full 300l store full of hot water. It seemed to me that this system was simply using ELECTRICITY to heat an imersion whenever the sun failed to heat the water sufficiently. So I can bet the family got a huge shock when the first electricity bill arrived.

    I am more than happy for someone to prove me wrong - this is just how it seems to work. I'm no expert and have never seen this system in the flesh so to speak.


  • #41
    rosepaddy
    Registered Users Posts: 12 ✭rosepaddy


    championc wrote: »
    I saw these thermodynamic solar panels on About the House a few months back. I was curious. Householders were delighted in that they were off out on a cloudy day and basically came back to a full 300l store full of hot water. It seemed to me that this system was simply using ELECTRICITY to heat an imersion whenever the sun failed to heat the water sufficiently. So I can bet the family got a huge shock when the first electricity bill arrived.

    I am more than happy for someone to prove me wrong - this is just how it seems to work. I'm no expert and have never seen this system in the flesh so to speak.


    without doubt you are correct, it is the exact same principal of a heat pump and immersion as the weather gets colder these will get more expensive to run if it get to freezing then €€€€€€€€€, talk to a ber accessor as it is proving hard to get grants with this product , i stand to be corrected but i think a circular has been sent to all ber accessors ref these products,it is a difficult market to be in as there is alot of companies bringing in cheap and cheerful products if you are looking for solar start with kilowatt output, we use a swiss manafactured system and combine it to a preheat in the winter for your central heating it works <SNIP>


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