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Will we ever see this type of target shooting here in Ireland

Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 1,242 ✭✭✭.243


    clive,you're at this shooting long enough i think to know the answer to that :D,
    grown,responsible,law abiding,firearm cert holding adults,firing at a human paper target,
    god knows what we could turn into after a few sessions of that!!! :eek:


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,991 ✭✭✭clivej


    .243 wrote: »
    clive,you're at this shooting long enough i think to know the answer to that :D,
    grown,responsible,law abiding,firearm cert holding adults,firing at a human paper target,
    god knows what we could turn into after a few sessions of that!!! :eek:


    OK I know that at a torso target is a no no but I did not know if this was banned here. :o

    I'm still learning. :confused:


  • Registered Users Posts: 40,055 ✭✭✭✭Sparks


    I thought he was just going to give up and poke a hole in the target with his finger at the end.

    I doubt we'll see it anytime soon clive, it's pretty much exactly what the AGS and Minister had in mind with section 4C.


  • Registered Users Posts: 449 ✭✭ianoo


    yep....but you'll have to join the army :D


    ian


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,641 ✭✭✭Bananaman


    Sparks wrote: »
    I thought he was just going to give up and poke a hole in the target with his finger at the end.

    I doubt we'll see it anytime soon clive, it's pretty much exactly what the AGS and Minister had in mind with section 4C.

    We know it is what they had in mind but we assume that what clive asked about is prohibited (not the same thing) by virtue of the fact that it includes movement - so is inherently practical and evil - as does hunting, clay shooting, some winter olympics events,

    It has never been defined what "combat or combat training" means in the context of:
    (4) In this section “ practical or dynamic shooting” means any form of activity in which firearms are used to simulate combat or combat training.”.

    It is just another "well_i_dont_like_the_look_o_that" clause.

    In general parlance "combat" is a situation where there are two sides, engaging each other - e.g. paintball, airsoft, etc.
    In which case what Clive asked about, and plenty of other sports, do not meet the definition and are therefore not prohibited.

    However, a breach of the "nice'n'fluffy" clause - as deemed by the Gardai/Courts would carry a higher sentence than most capital crimes so will have to be argued before the courts at some stage rather than someone assuming that the fact it is written in English means that the dictionary can be used to find its meaning.
    Sparks wrote: »
    I doubt we'll see it anytime soon clive

    Hopefully that is not true - it is fight well worth having - we have the patience - I for one look forward to having the option to shoot mini rifle in Ireland one day - as they do in every other country in Europe.

    B'Man


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  • Registered Users Posts: 5,504 ✭✭✭tac foley


    Bananaman wrote: »
    I for one look forward to having the option to shoot mini rifle in Ireland one day - as they do in every other country in Europe.B'Man

    Even UK.

    tac


  • Registered Users Posts: 40,055 ✭✭✭✭Sparks


    Sparks wrote:
    I doubt we'll see it anytime soon
    Bananaman wrote: »
    Hopefully that is not true
    I for one look forward to having the option to shoot mini rifle in Ireland one day

    /sigh


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,075 ✭✭✭gunhappy_ie


    (2) Subsection (1) does not apply to the facilitation or engagement in the use of a firearm pursuant to an authorisation under section 2(5)(a) of this Act, where the muzzle energy of the firearm is less than 16 Joules.

    I love that weekend warrior Airsoft heads are allowed buy (for example) all the American/British camo/chest rig/Airsoft Rifle/LMG and run around in organised events where they shoot other people.

    It may seem like harmless fun but .....

    Essentually you are preparing (some very young and impressionable minds as well as a shower of muppets who should never be gived a loaded fountain pen) in the art of war !

    These people are allowed to practice tactics that are or were used in real battles. Along with that they are gaining muscle memory as to where equiptment is on there rig from tactical reloads and increasing proficiency in reloading fast.

    Lastly and most disturbingly, they are desensatising themselves at looking down the barrel and shooting real people in what is simulated battle. This along with a gore obsessed tv/media/computer game (Call of duty is a perfect example) era is going to lead to problems for the government in the future IMO

    GH


  • Registered Users Posts: 14,275 ✭✭✭✭Witcher


    (2) Subsection (1) does not apply to the facilitation or engagement in the use of a firearm pursuant to an authorisation under section 2(5)(a) of this Act, where the muzzle energy of the firearm is less than 16 Joules.

    I love that weekend warrior Airsoft heads are allowed buy (for example) all the American/British camo/chest rig/Airsoft Rifle/LMG and run around in organised events where they shoot other people.

    It may seem like harmless fun but .....

    Essentually you are preparing (some very young and impressionable minds as well as a shower of muppets who should never be gived a loaded fountain pen) in the art of war !

    These people are allowed to practice tactics that are or were used in real battles. Along with that they are gaining muscle memory as to where equiptment is on there rig from tactical reloads and increasing proficiency in reloading fast.

    Lastly and most disturbingly, they are desensatising themselves at looking down the barrel and shooting real people in what is simulated battle. This along with a gore obsessed tv/media/computer game (Call of duty is a perfect example) era is going to lead to problems for the government in the future IMO

    GH

    Airsoft in no way prepares you for combat..as an outsider looking in you think that but I've 4 years experience with it and I can tell you there's almost no tactics/organisation in the average game..it's just run around firing for the most part. Your post is a bit sensationalist really, we've been hearing the same myths and over-reactions for 5 years on radio shows etc.


  • Registered Users Posts: 40,055 ✭✭✭✭Sparks


    (2) Subsection (1) does not apply to the facilitation or engagement in the use of a firearm pursuant to an authorisation under section 2(5)(a) of this Act, where the muzzle energy of the firearm is less than 16 Joules.

    I love that weekend warrior Airsoft heads are allowed buy (for example) all the American/British camo/chest rig/Airsoft Rifle/LMG and run around in organised events where they shoot other people.
    Actually, that section doesn't apply to them at all because they don't use firearms (you have to get above 1J to be a firearm, and airsoft toys don't). That section is written for the paintball lads...
    This along with a gore obsessed tv/media/computer game (Call of duty is a perfect example) era is going to lead to problems for the government in the future IMO
    "Computer games don't affect kids. If Pac-Man affected us as kids, we'd all be running around in dark rooms, munching pills and listening to repetitive music." :pac:


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  • Registered Users Posts: 286 ✭✭Mr.Flibble


    Lastly and most disturbingly, they are desensatising themselves at looking down the barrel and shooting real people in what is simulated battle.


    Get a grip. Most men of a certain age spent half their childhood doing just that.

    And we didn't turn into psychopaths.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,075 ✭✭✭gunhappy_ie


    Blay wrote: »
    Airsoft in no way prepares you for combat..as an outsider looking in you think that but I've 4 years experience with it and I can tell you there's almost no tactics/organisation in the average game..it's just run around firing for the most part. Your post is a bit sensationalist really, we've been hearing the same myths and over-reactions for 5 years on radio shows etc.

    So your not denying that essentally you are looking down the barrel of a toy gun and shooting people ?

    On the point of no organisation/tactics... while you have the 4 years airsoft experience (ill admit I hate the thing) ill throw in my 11 years military experience and say that of the people that I know who do/play airsoft they claim that there are tactics and organisation in there games. Also having had contact with several companies/organisations through duracoating they assure me that its not just people running around firing.
    Sparks wrote: »
    Actually, that section doesn't apply to them at all because they don't use firearms (you have to get above 1J to be a firearm, and airsoft toys don't). That section is written for the paintball lads...

    "Computer games don't affect kids. If Pac-Man affected us as kids, we'd all be running around in dark rooms, munching pills and listening to repetitive music." :pac:

    Aww I fell off the game.... I normally call Airsoft toys ... not firearms so ill put on the pointy had with the "D" and sit in the corner.

    Brilliant reply !


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,075 ✭✭✭gunhappy_ie


    Moving off topic....


    Should be start a new thread ?


  • Registered Users Posts: 14,275 ✭✭✭✭Witcher


    So your not denying that essentally you are looking down the barrel of a toy gun and shooting people ?

    On the point of no organisation/tactics... while you have the 4 years airsoft experience (ill admit I hate the thing) ill throw in my 11 years military experience and say that of the people that I know who do/play airsoft they claim that there are tactics and organisation in there games. Also having had contact with several companies/organisations through duracoating they assure me that its not just people running around firing.

    I've played with people with military experience, Irish/UK/Russian military veterans to be precise and each would tell you their tactics were in no way useful in an airsoft game, ergo airsoft tactics wouldn't apply in real combat. You've admitted you hate airsoft so I'm fighting a losing battle trying to convince you it's not what you think it is.

    Over 20 years of airsoft in the US/UK and Asia hasn't spawned the crazed, violent people you think it has. Your assumptions and opinions about airsoft are grossly misinformed and sensationalist but you are of course entitled to them, but at the end of the day the DOJ don't agree with such theories and that's all that matters:)


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,200 ✭✭✭J.D.R


    So your not denying that essentally you are looking down the barrel of a toy gun and shooting people ?

    That is all


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,641 ✭✭✭Bananaman


    This topic has nothing to do with airsoft (or paintball)

    I have no problem with Airsoft or paintball - its just games with toys - cowboys and indians for people with jobs or money.

    ...

    I regret using the terms now - I simply used them to point out what 'simulated combat' is.

    People assume that Mini Rifle and any other form of 'dynamic target shooting' are banned as the name of some of the sports contains the word 'practical' and 'practical and dynamic shooting' is prohibited.

    However the term does not refer to Mini Rifle (or IPSC for that matter)
    it refers to 'combat or combat simulation' with firearms
    neither of which apply to mini rifle.

    So IMHO mini rifle and other dynamic target shooting sports are not prohibited

    (I would assume IDPA is, as it is defensive in nature so inherently combat training, but is not really of interest to anyone outside the states anyway)

    But as usual in this country - it all depends how much truth or justice you can afford.

    B'Man


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,200 ✭✭✭J.D.R


    Bananaman wrote: »
    This topic has nothing to do with airsoft (or paintball)

    Apologies for hijacking the thread


  • Registered Users Posts: 40,055 ✭✭✭✭Sparks


    Bananaman wrote: »
    This topic has nothing to do with airsoft (or paintball)
    Except that it does in that the law which prevents the shooting shown in the OP has exemptions for paintball (and airsoft is exempted by another law, but the comparison is still valid).
    You want to shot the kind of stuff in the OP B'man, and airsoft and paintball are your best friends in that endeavour, because they show with live demonstrations every day of the week that that kind of activity doesn't turn normal reasonable people into murdering sociopaths, which appears to be the main worry of the AGS; and they also give that kind of activity a decent PR image in the minds of the general public - who you'll need on your side if you ever talk with a Minister about this.

    I'd be avoiding trying to silence them, if I was trying to do what you're saying you'd like to do...

    (and that's quite aside from the whole back-seat modding issue)
    People assume that Mini Rifle and any other form of 'dynamic target shooting' are banned as the name of some of the sports contains the word 'practical' and 'practical and dynamic shooting' is prohibited.

    However the term does not refer to Mini Rifle (or IPSC for that matter)
    it refers to 'combat or combat simulation' with firearms
    neither of which apply to mini rifle.

    So IMHO mini rifle and other dynamic target shooting sports are not prohibited
    When you successfully hold a public event for such, or you get a licence granted with that as your good reason, let us know.

    Until then B'man, your reasoning is remarkably similar in nature to the reasoning of those people who thought that because their firearms licence said "carry" on it, that they had a US-style concealed carry permit for their firearm despite statute law stating plainly that they did not.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,641 ✭✭✭Bananaman


    I think we will agree to differ - as we have different opinions on the issue.
    Sparks wrote: »
    .... the law which prevents the shooting shown in the OP has exemptions for paintball (and airsoft is exempted by another law, but the comparison is still valid).

    I do not believe there is such a law - the law you speak of, for which there are exemptions for paintball and airsoft prohibits "combat or combat simulation"

    I do not believe the shooting shown in the OP meets that definition.

    Do you believe that what the OP showed was "combat or combat simulation"??
    ...

    I shoot IPSC handgun and have done for years now.
    (if you are to believe some of what you read - the most evil and black of all target sports :-) and I use a Glock which makes it exceptionally evil and black - I may burst into flame if i was to ever attend more old fashioned target shooting - oh I do that too - no flames yet,

    I have also played Paintball and Airsoft games.

    The Latter is combat simulation (doesn't ring my bell)

    The former is not - it is simply target shooting (which does ring my bell)

    As is the target shooting shown by the OP - (albeit very un PC due to the targets used but then it is most likely in the US where PC is not an issue - just turn the target around and you remove the argument - the target cannot be the basis for the argument).

    therefore,

    I do not believe that what the OP showed was "combat or combat simulation with firearms" - therefore is not prohibited.

    But I accept that the shocking state of our laws and their application invariably required the intervention of a court in order to outline the specifics.
    Sparks wrote: »
    You want to shot the kind of stuff in the OP B'man, and airsoft and paintball are your best friends in that endeavour, because they show with live demonstrations every day of the week that that kind of activity doesn't turn normal reasonable people into murdering sociopaths, which appears to be the main worry of the AGS; and they also give that kind of activity a decent PR image in the minds of the general public - who you'll need on your side if you ever talk with a Minister about this.

    I disagree - Airsoft and Paintball are games - like i said earlier - comboys and indians for people with jobs or money - they are also combat simulation games - therefore they do not demonstrate "that kind of activity"

    There is, in fact, no common ground between them - one is not the argument for the other.

    It is disingenuous to assume the airsoft guys are just buttering up politicians so they can get big guns. Most of the airsofters I know - have zero interest in real guns. They want to do combat simulation. Play a video game outside.
    Sparks wrote: »
    Until then B'man, your reasoning is remarkably similar in nature to the reasoning of those people who thought that because their firearms licence said "carry" on it, that they had a US-style concealed carry permit for their firearm despite statute law stating plainly that they did not.

    Another unnecessary, incorrect and invalid association drawn. (Gold star for the copy book there)

    I am not looking for loopholes in any laws or looking for different interpretations of wordings - to me it is simply black and white.

    The law states that "combat or combat simulation with firearms" is prohibited - no argument there - and IMHO nothing in what the OP suggested meets that definition.

    In fact, nothing I have ever seen practiced or competed for in Ireland has EVER met that definition (I was never in the FCA, Army, etc.)

    Have you ever seen anything practiced for or competed in (by civilians) In Ireland that meets the definition of "combat or combat simulation"?

    B'Man


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,242 ✭✭✭.243


    Sparks wrote: »
    we'd all be running around in dark rooms, munching pills and listening to repetitive music."[/i] :pac:

    that if anything sounds more like a good nite at an illegal rave party :D


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  • Registered Users Posts: 40,055 ✭✭✭✭Sparks


    Bananaman wrote: »
    I do not believe there is such a law - the law you speak of, for which there are exemptions for paintball and airsoft prohibits "combat or combat simulation"
    I do not believe the shooting shown in the OP meets that definition.
    Do you believe that what the OP showed was "combat or combat simulation"??
    ...
    What I believe is that what you believe, and about three euros, will buy you a cup of coffee in Dublin.
    I believe that you believing that a statute law doesn't apply to you is not a legal defence if you are charged with taking part in that sport, or if you attempt to obtain a licence for that sport.
    I believe that it's right up there with earlier contentions that the word "carry" on a form put together by an anonymous civil servant trumps an entire Act passed by the Oireacthas.
    And I believe that if that is the core philosophy behind your attempts to reintroduce IPSC shooting, then:
    1. you'll fail, farcically so;
    2. you'll really tick off the IPSC NGB in Ireland whose own attempts you would undermine; and
    3. you'll wind up on the receiving end of criminal charges and at a minimum lose your licence for five years.

    There is, in fact, no common ground between them - one is not the argument for the other.
    Actually, you're both right and wrong. There's no common ground between our sports equipment (and I've been saying this for several years now); but the activity does have common ground with paintball and IPSC shooting. And you want that common ground because the argument is that they're permitted to do this and you're not, but there's no ill effect seen from them doing it, so there would be equally little ill effect seen from you doing it.
    It is disingenuous to assume
    Good thing nobody was then.
    Another unnecessary, incorrect and invalid association drawn. (Gold star for the copy book there)
    If you're going to try to insinuate that I'm drawing an association between firearms and airsoft, you'll need a time machine:
    Sparks wrote: »
    Why not just go directly to the Irish Sports Council first? Going to the NRPAI first is not putting the cart before the horse, it's worrying about fuel injection jet design before inventing the wheel.

    Actually, it's worse than that, it's worrying about what colour bicycle to get your fish before you've bought the aquarium. Airsoft does not use firearms. Which is a good thing. The exemption from the firearms legislation is an incredibly large benefit for the sport.
    (and there are other quotes from around the same time back when airsoft was starting up).

    I am not looking for loopholes in any laws or looking for different interpretations of wordings - to me it is simply black and white.

    The law states that "combat or combat simulation with firearms" is prohibited - no argument there - and IMHO nothing in what the OP suggested meets that definition.
    In your opinion, yes. In the opinion of the Garda Commissioner and the Minister who drafted the law, [accent]cop-the-bleep-on-ya-bleep[/accent]. Seriously B'man, if you want to prove your point, apply for a licence for a firearm with IPSC shooting listed as the sole good reason, and take it to the District Court when you're refused and present your argument to the District Court Judge.
    Saying it on here is walking the line next to rule 8. We would all prefer it didn't, we would all prefer that we hadn't seen the same gombeen who brought in a Blasphemy Act actually go and ban a sport with a worldwide following; but he did, and we're stuck with that until we can change it. Pretending it didn't happen is like using faith healing instead of chemotherapy for a treatable cancer - the outcome will be tragic in a Darwin Award fashion.
    .243 wrote: »
    that if anything sounds more like a good nite at an illegal rave party :D

    Yes :) It's a quote from Marcus Brigstocke, a comedian.


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,991 ✭✭✭clivej


    clivej wrote: »
    OK I know that at a torso target is a no no but I did not know if this was banned here. :o

    I'm still learning. :confused:


    And thanks to all these reply's I'm still learning :)

    If I can do these sort of combat details in Airsoft or paintball I'd nearly move over to the Dark Side to have a go. It has to be far cheaper than the thousands I've spend on the gear I have. :o


  • Registered Users Posts: 13,245 ✭✭✭✭kowloon


    Training them to be cold blooded killers Joe, 'tis like dat filum, O'pocalypse now.



  • Registered Users Posts: 380 ✭✭lordarpad


    Bananaman wrote: »
    I for one look forward to having the option to shoot mini rifle in Ireland one day - as they do in every other country in Europe.

    B'Man

    Well, that creeped me out just a little - you _do_ know that the gun Breivik used was a Ruger mini 14? In the light of this I would advise not crowing too loudly at the moment ...


  • Registered Users Posts: 40,055 ✭✭✭✭Sparks


    lordarpad wrote: »
    Well, that creeped me out just a little - you _do_ know that the gun Breivik used was a Ruger mini 14? In the light of this I would advise not crowing too loudly at the moment ...

    He was also a right-wing Christian, and his motivation for his madness was founded in that rather than in the tools he used. I don't see us calling for the banning of Christianity at the moment though, so I don't see the point in calling for us to ban the tools he used instead. You might as well call for banning cars to prevent people having getaway vehicles from bank robberies.

    I think though that at this point, we're about to cross the line (if we're not already astride it) where we leave sports matters and cross right over into another area altogether, and that's a conversation more suited to the Politics forum so we'll close this thread at this point.


This discussion has been closed.
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