Office Bullying

jos_kel · 18-06-2011 9:40pm #1

Hi,
I've been the victim of some office banter recently. Well it was actually going on for a while. Eventually I brought it up with my line manager who I find very supportive. For some reason 2 or more people seem to have got it into their head that I'm gay, eventhough I'm not, not that I'd have a problem with anyone who was.
I didn't say what the comments related to, but that I'd been keeping a diary of incidents. I explained that to her that it would be difficult to prove because it was my word against theirs. I suggested that the manager of another department should send out an email to condemn such behaviour in a general sense. In this way, we could avoid directly dealing with the culprits and see if they would modify their behaviour. Also this would allow me to remain anonymous and hopefully we could nip this in the bud without proceeding with a formal HR process.
Since then, I've heard some remarks from the culprits that they know who prompted the email. Other colleagues have even weighted in with little niggly homophobic remarks. Again, all this is difficult to prove and to be honest it's more irritating than anything. One on one I don't really care what someone thinks about me, but in my work environment I don't like the feeling that people are talking about me and engaging in general innuendo. At the end of the day, I'm just a genuine quite guy, who works hard for my wife and child. I just want to go to work, earn my wages and go home. I don't think I'm being sensitive. It's been going on a while and I would much prefer if I could pretend to myself that this isn't going on but sadly it is and it's difficult to prove anything. Also, I don't have huge faith in a formal HR process, eventhough I do have faith in the HR department. I think I can only lose by going down the formal HR route because ultimately I can't prove anything. Perhaps I should just ignore everything and change jobs when the time is right. Doesn't really seem fair. Any Ideas?
The manager told me to keep her posted but I can't really prove anything.

Forest Master · 20-06-2011 11:27am

I'd get a voice recorder & just record the whole day at work - your phone would be ideal, as you can leave it recording on your desk without it looking obvious. Then if it happens, at the end of the day, just keep the file & make a note of the times it occurs (and who it was each time). If it doesn't happen that day, delete the file.
Do that for a few weeks until you have enough evidence. Not sure of how admissible it would be as evidence in court, but you don't need it for that: from a HR perspective it's all the hard evidence you need to make them act.
Take matters into your own hands - and take the "your words against theirs" situation out of the equation. The whole "your words against theirs" is what enables this to continue unchecked & unproven.

jos_kel · 20-06-2011 8:25pm

Thanks for you feedback Forest Master, I was thinking about using a voice recorder for a while alright. Just shows what a last resort I'm at. I used the phone today, but it wasn't great quality. In any case, there wasn't any need to use it today. Might look at other alternatives to the phone as a means of voice recording. Thanks for the tip anyway.

Forest Master · 20-06-2011 11:40pm

Get a little mic that sits on top of your monitor & record the sound on your PC (keep it minimised). A mic like that won't look obvious.

jos_kel · 22-06-2011 8:52pm

Hi,
Haven't got around to using the mic yet to catch the culprits making inappropriate remarks about me. I've noticed that they're now engaging in very subtle innuendo now. They know and I know what they're saying but even if I had it recorded I know the remarks would sound harmless. I even had the manager's manager over today making remarks to the 2 culprits about going to HR etc. and the 2 of them laughed as well. He said to one of them that he should be "over the other side of the fence" and they had a great life.
Ha ha, get it, he's gay, the other side of the fence etc. I'd love to know why they think I'm gay. But I think I'm really up against it because my manager who is supportive CC'd her manager complaining about Office Behaviour so he of all people should not be encouraging anyone.
Perhaps it's time for me to move on. I don't think I can win this one. There's only one thing keeping me there, my young son, who I love deeply and I'll go through anything for. I think I'll start looking for a new job but be patient until the right one turns up.
The thing is I don't mind any one person thinking I'm gay, but I need a good working environment without people engaging in innuendo in my presence.

jos_kel · 23-06-2011 2:22pm

Was across the road to the pub today for lunch. Ended up sitting at the same table as one of the culprits. The other 2 people are fairly sound but I think are being influenced by the other person.Just to make small talk, I said I was at the dentist to get some root canal treatment done. Of course, himself said, I'd never let a male dentist put anything in my mouth i.e. 'gay innuendo'. I responded by saying 'well wouldn't the pain be the same even if the dentist were female, trying to change the subject. But he persisted along the original lines.I know he's talking to other people behind my back.I don't think I should have to take this sh*t. I've no problem with someone thinking I'm gay. It's when they're talking behind my back that I have the problem. I still have to work like anyone else and go home to a wife and a son at the end of the day.I need to get this resolved, but my work environment seems to getting worse the more I try to tackle it.

runawaybishop · 23-06-2011 2:29pm

Innuendo is still harassment, just as much as if they had said something offensive directly. They might be able to get away with it once or twice, but if it is persistent (and you are noting times etc) then you should have a strong case against them.

jos_kel · 23-06-2011 9:47pm

Hi,
I like the suggestion of the mic but does anyone know where/how I could get some bugging equipment to listen to place on these peoples desks to expose them once and for all for what they are. No one has the right to be carrying on like that in this day and age.
I know I probably should be going to these lengths but I've learnt to expose these low life parasites you have to almost become one first (at least on a temporary basis).
Any advice appreciated

Forest Master · 24-06-2011 11:00am

jos_kel wrote: »

Hi,
I like the suggestion of the mic but does anyone know where/how I could get some bugging equipment to listen to place on these peoples desks to expose them once and for all for what they are. No one has the right to be carrying on like that in this day and age.
I know I probably should be going to these lengths but I've learnt to expose these low life parasites you have to almost become one first (at least on a temporary basis).
Any advice appreciated

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jos_kel · 24-06-2011 3:24pm

The Manager's Manager was over today with more innuendo. He was saying to one of the people who sits across from me who think I'm gay "Oh I see you have a white mobile phone and you have a piece of lemon in your tea, I suppose you'll soon be going over the other side of the fence" looking to myself and 2 other lads the far side of the desk.In isolation I would think nothing of this but it's just that it's too much like a pattern at this stage.Two days ago myself and another colleague were having a technical discussion and he walked in and joked with him that he should get over the other side of the fence and he laughed as well, as if there was more innuendo.I feel a bit trapped at the moment, as at one level I want to ignore it and pretend it's not happening. However, I can't let people tarnish my character.I've no issue with gay people, people of different religion or anything. But I am who I am, and I shouldn't have to put up with this.I'm not sure where I should go with this. My manager is supportive but her manager is a bit of a joker and a prat. Can I tackle his behaviour? This is high risk I think. I know they would say I'm just being sensitive.I've spoken to my wife about this and we've both agreed that I have to get it sorted. I think my name has been blackened by a few eejits.Every morning I look at my Son and I silently promise him that I'll get it sorted too, but it's getting to crunch time and I have to do something.

Forest Master · 24-06-2011 3:40pm

This is horrible. Can you not just take it to the top & explain everything to the top dog? Tell him/her your solicitor has advised taking legal action f it doesn't stop. Say that you've already exhausted internal procedures & informed your manager & nothing has been done except an e-mail sent around that only implicated you & made it worse, and another manager is also part of joining in.
This is textbook bullying, plain & simple. Go to the top & explain everything.

CatFromHue · 24-06-2011 4:35pm

im not sure what to do here.

all i can think of is that the next time it happens call the person out on it and ask what they mean. if they then make another joke tell them to go F*** themselves.

ongarboy · 24-06-2011 5:17pm

Hi OP, I'm sorry to hear that you are going through this difficult dilemma. What is happening in your office is completely unacceptable. I understand other posters are trying to be helpful with recommending sound recorders but I don't see why that is the way to go. Right now, it should be taken as given by your manager (and her manager) that everything you say is the truth. If you have displayed loyalty and honesty in your job so far and showed that you are a good worker, there is no reason for management to doubt you.

Keep documenting every remark that is made with date and time and by whom and to whom. As you say, one or two comments in isolation seems insigificant but when put altogether, it is very serious. It is your manager's job to help address her employee's workplace issues. You need to keep letting her know that it is still a serious issue for you and that you are not seeing any improvement. Advise that you felt that things if anything got worse after the office behaviour mail was circulated. Ask her what further actions can be taken? If she is out of her depth dealing with this, then I suggest you speak to your HR rep/manager as they are trained in dealing with these types of situations involving personnel that a regular line manager would not.

I recommend you also do the following: write down how you feel when you hear this banter/innuendo/subtle remarks. Also list how it is affecting your productivity at work and how it affects your private life (ie dreading going into work etc). Any company that was aware that good, productive workers were losing morale and considering leaving because of completely avoidable workplace bullying and took no action is a constructive dismissal lawsuit waiting to happen. Hopefully, your company (if not your senior manager) is more professional than this.

Tigger · 24-06-2011 5:25pm

Accuse one of them of making a pass at you and being sexually aggressive when you told them you were. Make the story short and stick to it. Never ever take bullying with out giving back twice as much.

jos_kel · 24-06-2011 8:30pm

Thanks so much for all your comments. It's after perking me up a bit.
The manager's manager was also saying today to the original bully that "he was hoping that he was secure in his sexuality and didn't mind him teasing about the white phone and the lemon in the tea".
This was obviously a hint to me that I shouldn't be offended by such comments.
However, the bit, I don't get is that I didn't tell my manager anything of the content of the bullying, or what the remarks related to. Neither did I say who was making them.
So then the manager sent a general email to the department outlawing inappropriate office behaviour and also CC'd her manager.
Since the email was sent around I've noticed the original 2 bullies trying to get other people onside and the other people were making general joking remarks (not to me) about "pink", "male dentists putting a drill in your mouth".
It's obvious to me that people know I was the reason the manager sent the email and what the inappropriate behaviour was.
This seems proof enough that people even knew before the email was sent that comments were being made.
My regret today was that I didn't mention jokingly to the manager's manager that he should modify his behaviour towards the bully to avoid my manager having to send another email. I think that would have made him think.

jos_kel · 25-06-2011 9:26pm

My son has got an asthma attack over the weekend but he's OK, but my stress levels have gone through the roof. This is the side of the bullying that these f*ckers don't see. They don't seem to realise that life can be tough enough at the best of times with extra sh*te.
I spoke to my wife, I think I might jack in the job, it's not worth it, we're quite comfortable financially. The funny thing is this company entered the GPTW (Good Place To Work) this year and fancy their chances of really doing well next year. If only they knew (maybe the MD doesn't).

seabre · 25-06-2011 9:59pm

jos_kel wrote: »

My son has got an asthma attack over the weekend but he's OK, but my stress levels have gone through the roof. This is the side of the bullying that these f*ckers don't see. They don't seem to realise that life can be tough enough at the best of times with extra sh*te.
I spoke to my wife, I think I might jack in the job, it's not worth it, we're quite comfortable financially. The funny thing is this company entered the GPTW (Good Place To Work) this year and fancy their chances of really doing well next year. If only they knew (maybe the MD doesn't).[/QUOT

Firstly can I say I really feel for you in this situation, you are totally right in what you say about life being hard enough at times without having to put up with bullies at work.

You sound as though you are seriously thinking of letting this job go so I would urge you to throw everything at them before you do. Go directly to the top as was previously suggested and also I would suggest you bring a note from your doctor saying just how stressed you have been because of this. Show your doctor your notes and tell them how you have been made feel and the pressure you have been under.

I didnt see you mention a union but if you were part of one I would also take your case to them. You have obviously done all you can to have the situation rectified with as little fuss as possible but your managers have clearly been inadequate in their roles - it really sounds as if your workplace needs a damn good stir up and you may as well do everything you can to give them the wake up call they need. Worst case scenario is nothing changes and you leave which you are already considering anyhow. If your managers dont act go out on long term sick leave citing stress and undue pressure in the workplace. Nothing makes companies acting quickly like a blow to the bottom line!

It really angers me when Bullies get their way - Tell yourself you are making it your mission to bring these bullies to light - it may make your time at work more bearable and less stressful.

Good luck with it all - and I hope your son is better from the asthma attack.

casman · 26-06-2011 11:05pm

I went through a similar situation last year. There is a facility in Trinity College Dublin that gave me very good advice - its website is http://www.abc.tcd.ie/ . They will advise you on how to proceed based on your circumstances. Also look at http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/employment/equality_in_work/bullying_in_the_workplace.html for more info.

The company are obliged under health & safety legislation to have a policy on dealing with bullying / dignity in the workplace which sounds very much like what you're experiencing. They should have a clear policy on how to deal with it.

Keep taking notes, Best of luck and let us know how you get on.

Mrs OBumble · 26-06-2011 11:48pm

I don't know what the law says about using bugging equipment in Ireland, but have a feeling that it may not be 100% legal. If it's not legal, then please don't suggest it, or give advice about it, here. /moderation.

OP, it seems to me that you need to make decisions based on what you want to do. Do you want to throw the book at the company? Do you want to make enemies (as opposed to dumb smart-asses) out of your (possibly ex) colleagues?

jos_kel · 27-06-2011 7:14pm

JustMary,
Just trying to read between the lines. Are you suggesting it would be better if I kept the head down and pretend the bullying isn't happening. Isn't this what gives the bullies the power?

eco2live · 27-06-2011 7:32pm

I would send a quick e-mail to the people involved and tell them that you don't appreciate the comments and innuendo regarding your sexuality. If they do not reply then they it will be seen as acceptance of the accusation. Dont worry if they deny it. They will more then likely make some abusive comments in return or plead ignorance. Is there anyone in the company to back you up on this? A friend who might have heard any comments?

Either way put your complaint in writing and e-mail it to your Manager and ask them when they will be back to you regarding the complaint. Note in your letter that you have had a previous discussion with the manager regarding this situation.

Also ask them for a copy of the company's procedures for dealing with such complaints. (they might read it for the first time)

You are entitled to complain and your manager legally needs to take some action. If they don't take action and you leave you will have a case for constructive dismissal. If you do resign then make sure that you wright your letter mentioning all the steps you took to rectify the situation.

If you stay then don't let them away with it mate. See it through. It wont do your self esteem any good to just walk away.

Hope it all goes well for you.

Pembily · 27-06-2011 7:57pm

jos_kel wrote: »

JustMary,
Just trying to read between the lines. Are you suggesting it would be better if I kept the head down and pretend the bullying isn't happening. Isn't this what gives the bullies the power?

No she is not saying that she thinks bugging equipment isn't fully legal (and I was about to post the same)!!! In a legal case if you use illegal methods you will look like the one in the wrong and not the victim. When it is your word against theirs you need to be SUPER SUPER SUPER careful!!!!!!!!

Mezcita · 27-06-2011 8:03pm

eco2live wrote: »

I would send a quick e-mail to the people involved and tell them that you don't appreciate the comments and innuendo regarding your sexuality. If they do not reply then they it will be seen as acceptance of the accusation. Dont worry if they deny it. They will more then likely make some abusive comments in return or plead ignorance. Is there anyone in the company to back you up on this? A friend who might have heard any comments?

Either way put your complaint in writing and e-mail it to your Manager and ask them when they will be back to you regarding the complaint. Note in your letter that you have had a previous discussion with the manager regarding this situation.

Also ask them for a copy of the company's procedures for dealing with such complaints. (they might read it for the first time)

You are entitled to complain and your manager legally needs to take some action. If they don't take action and you leave you will have a case for constructive dismissal. If you do resign then make sure that you wright your letter mentioning all the steps you took to rectify the situation.

If you stay then don't let them away with it mate. See it through. It wont do your self esteem any good to just walk away.

Hope it all goes well for you.

Good advice here. The only difference is that I would not ask your manager in the email about when they would get back to you about this situation, I would give him a date to respond by. You need to show that your are serious about this matter and that it needs to be resolved.

Frequently I find that companies only sit up and listen when they realise that a situation is serious and that the employee has the law on their side. You need to document everything (comments, emails, meetings about this, the lot) so that if the matter reaches a point where you need to move on, you will be able to come back to them with a case of constructive dismissal.

You also need to follow the company's grievance procedure exactly. This is so that nobody can accuse you of not trying to resolve this situation properly.

Best of luck.

jos_kel · 27-06-2011 8:52pm

Thanks everyone for your replies,
Sometimes I think it would be easier to deal with situation if I was actually gay. The manager's manager was slyly making comments last friday to one of the bullies about the fact that he was drinking tea with lemon in it and that he hoped he was secure in his sexuality.
It was obvious to me that the bully and the manager's manager are in cahoots with each other. They're trying to imply that I'm being sensitive or something.
This is strange, because my manager didn't mention the nature of the offensive comments or who was being blamed for making them. She just said she had overheard something. So obviously the bully knows he's being watched. Why the manager's manager is in on the act is anyone's guess.

eco2live · 27-06-2011 8:55pm

That's why we have rules and procedures as you cannot rely on people to have integrity. The managers manager works for the same company as you and you have as much rights as anyone else employed to do your job without harassment.

InReality · 29-06-2011 8:44pm

Bullying someone about being gay is incrediblely stupid in this day and age.

There are probably a few ways to go about dealing with it , inc some suggestions here.
I would definatly stick it out and try and fight it - you have a very strong case against some very sad/ignorant/etc people.
Wish you all the best.

The rules are there to stop this stuff and are on your side.

Denerick · 03-07-2011 12:51am

I think you might be a little oversensitive. For example the remark about the dentist could have been entirey innocuous - the fellow might be a bumbling homophobe but he mightn't necessarily be having a go at you. I also think your reaction was all wrong, trying to counter that with a 'well it would be no different if it was a female dentist' absolutely screamed Ricky Gervais to me to be honest, its like your misreading fairly obvious social signals and making it worse for yourself.

At the end of the day, if they think you're gay, they think you're gay. Pity them for being so pathetically childish. Confide in your wife to vent at the end of the day. I'm afraid you may have escalated this beyond all proportion, if you just laughed off the jokes at the beginning this thing wouldn't have had legs, and you wouldn't be in the predicament you are now in.

I'm not saying its your fault but you're letting an office bully persist in this thing and you're escalating it by getting HR to make an office wide announcement (I really cringed at that too btw, its going to be really obvious that you instigated that and there is no good way around that)

The best thing you could have done would have been to either tell him straight up to F*ck off or you could have laughed it off and make some remark like 'Its a widely known fact that the more homophobic you are the likelier it is that your a closet case'.

I just think that you handled this all wrong. It could have been so much better. Of course some people are just twats, like this bully seems to be, but you just made it so easy for him. I would advise confronting him sometime when there isn't anyone nearby, either or completely ignore him until it blows over.

P.S- Sorry for being so blunt, but I don't think the other posters on this thread are being entirely honest with you. I think you made this harder on yourself than it needed to be.

gline · 03-07-2011 2:36am

CatFromHue wrote: »

all i can think of is that the next time it happens call the person out on it and ask what they mean.

Why not do this? Confront them in a serious way and get them to say something directly to your face with witnesses and if they do that is blatent harrassment and youve got proof. If they dont say anything directly to your face, then they are chicken s**ts and anyone that is around will see this and also see your really not happy with it. I think going behind the culprits backs was possibly not the best 1st thing to do. Confront the people directly first, then if the situation doesnt improve and you are seriously thinking about leaving then you can go all out and take it up the chain of management/HR etc.

In any good company,if management saw that a member of staff is nearly at walking out point because of homosexual innuendos/jokes/bullying they would immidiatley fix the issue as they would know this could turn into legal action especially in this day and age :rolleyes:

jos_kel · 03-07-2011 6:45pm

Thanks Denerick and gline for your upfront and brutally honest assessments,
What I will say in response though is that this has been going on a while, I've been through the laughing it off phase, I've been through the asking them directly what they mean by certain comments.
My breaking point came when it impinges on my work performance and I have 2 colleagues making my work environment uncomfortable.
I hear where your both coming from but I definitely don't think I'm being oversensitive, if anything I should have dealt with this a long time ago and not allowed it to escalate.
For the moment, I'll let it go and takes notes of the incidents and not react. I hope it dies down and I can just get on with things.

Office Bullying

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