Cat5 or Coax for UPC

zale · 02-02-2011 5:35pm #1

Hi All,

Years ago I got rid of chorus tv, so myself & next door ran cat5 cable from my house out to the street & back to his by pulling it through with the existing coaxial cable used for chorus tv.
I'm now switching ISP to upc BB & phone. My question is :

1. Do I need to pull coaxial cable from the street back into the house or will the cat5 thats there do for upc BB

2. If it will do what connectors/adapter do I need.

Cheers

JDxtra · 02-02-2011 5:47pm

Oh dear. I don't think that was your cable to be pulling out! UPC will need to re-install the coaxial cable. They are probably assuming the original cable is still there, so may not even do the install if it's too much effort.

zale · 02-02-2011 6:14pm

JDxtra wrote: »

Oh dear. I don't think that was your cable to be pulling out! UPC will need to re-install the coaxial cable. They are probably assuming the original cable is still there, so may not even do the install if it's too much effort.

When they disconnected us yrs ago they actually cut the coax right back (probably to prevent me reconnecting the tv) and it's no bother or hassle pulling coax back thru, I'll do it myself. I was just wondering can cat5 be used instead of the coax.

JDxtra · 02-02-2011 6:25pm

No, it needs to be the coax.

zale · 02-02-2011 6:31pm

JDxtra wrote: »

No, it needs to be the coax.

Cheers for that,
1 last thing both sides need to be F connectors are they just crimp on, I don't need some special tool for them do I.

JDxtra · 02-02-2011 6:54pm

Let UPC do all of that, it will be part of the install.

watty · 02-02-2011 10:00pm

Never ever connect different houses together with any kind of cable without being qualified. Neighbour's mains and yours is over 380V difference. You need isolation and/or a bonded earth to main earth wire to do it safely!

zale · 02-02-2011 10:22pm

watty wrote: »

Never ever connect different houses together with any kind of cable without being qualified. Neighbour's mains and yours is over 380V difference. You need isolation and/or a bonded earth to main earth wire to do it safely!

We only created a LAN, I wasn't running a microwave & the tv from it.

hightower1 · 03-02-2011 2:09am

zale wrote: »

When they disconnected us yrs ago they actually cut the coax right back (probably to prevent me reconnecting the tv) and it's no bother or hassle pulling coax back thru, I'll do it myself. I was just wondering can cat5 be used instead of the coax.

So you basically started interferring with UPC cable network yourself by pulling on their co-ax lines? Smart move :rolleyes:.... queue someone on your street starting another thread entitled "slow bb in dub XX - fcuk UPC!!".

Next time you start seeing problems with your services from any utility provider you need only look as far as the people around you who see it fit to start screwing with property thats no theirs in the first place.

watty · 03-02-2011 9:25am

zale wrote: »

We only created a LAN, I wasn't running a microwave & the tv from it.

And the isolation voltage rating for equipment the Cat5 plugged into is for 220V mains. ESB uses three phases. Between phases is 380V.
If you want to connect a network or anything else between two premises you have to use particular earthing and barrier equipment for safety unless you are using wireless/WiFi.

Your switch/PC etc isolation may or may not be rated for 380V mains

Cuddlesworth · 03-02-2011 6:10pm

watty wrote: »

And the isolation voltage rating for equipment the Cat5 plugged into is for 220V mains. ESB uses three phases. Between phases is 380V.
If you want to connect a network or anything else between two premises you have to use particular earthing and barrier equipment for safety unless you are using wireless/WiFi.

Your switch/PC etc isolation may or may not be rated for 380V mains

He put a CAT5 cable through ducting between buildings seperated from the mains(UPC/Eircom etc standard). Its no different then running it through two rooms. The points on both ends would be attached to equipment fused and on the house mains, the ports incapable of transferring anywhere near that sort of power. What the hell are you on about?

zale · 03-02-2011 6:47pm

@ Watty

My last post was very blunt & looks like I was trying to be smart...I wasn't & apologize. The cat5 was put in 10yrs ago by next door (since moved abroad) who knew what he was doing & said it was set up safely.

@hightower1

There are 4 coax cables for the 4 houses on my street in a hole in my garden, none of which are connected & all are cut back, probably by a chorus technican back when everyone switched to sky cause their cable tv was crap. The only cable removed was the one running to my house with cat5, which as of today has been replaced with brand new coax exactly like it was 10yrs ago......only a little longer.

lucernarian · 03-02-2011 7:18pm

hightower1 wrote: »

So you basically started interferring with UPC cable network yourself by pulling on their co-ax lines? Smart move :rolleyes:.... queue someone on your street starting another thread entitled "slow bb in dub XX - fcuk UPC!!".

Next time you start seeing problems with your services from any utility provider you need only look as far as the people around you who see it fit to start screwing with property thats no theirs in the first place.

What are you talking about?? The op carried out no interfering, UPC removed their own cables

watty · 04-02-2011 10:46am

Cuddlesworth wrote: »

He put a CAT5 cable through ducting between buildings seperated from the mains(UPC/Eircom etc standard). Its no different then running it through two rooms. The points on both ends would be attached to equipment fused and on the house mains, the ports incapable of transferring anywhere near that sort of power. What the hell are you on about?

Two rooms in an ordinary dwelling are on same phase.

Two adjoining properties are usually on different phases. It's not about fusing. It's about potential for electric shock. There are wiring standards for ANY kind of wiring between different dwellings that are different for safety reasons to wiring inside one ordinary dwelling. Equipment has 0.25A to 13A fusing. Maybe less than 0.05A will kill you.

The OP says it was done "properly".

If anyone else is reading they should seek qualified advice (not just from a random electrician who simply wires jobs as per the plans) before installing intercom, phone system wiring, loudspeaker, Cat5e networking, Coax for CCTV, TV or Satellite or any form of wiring connected by any method to anything mains powered or connected to mains powered equipment, earthed or not.

Don't even think about actual mains wiring or extension cable or UPS power between premises without a suitably qualified Electrician supervising or specifying wiring and earthing scheme.

Unregistered. · 04-02-2011 11:44am

watty wrote: »

Two rooms in an ordinary dwelling are on same phase.

Two adjoining properties are usually on different phases. It's not about fusing. It's about potential for electric shock. There are wiring standards for ANY kind of wiring between different dwellings that are different for safety reasons to wiring inside one ordinary dwelling. Equipment has 0.25A to 13A fusing. Maybe less than 0.05A will kill you.

The OP says it was done "properly".

If anyone else is reading they should seek qualified advice (not just from a random electrician who simply wires jobs as per the plans) before installing intercom, phone system wiring, loudspeaker, Cat5e networking, Coax for CCTV, TV or Satellite or any form of wiring connected by any method to anything mains powered or connected to mains powered equipment, earthed or not.

Don't even think about actual mains wiring or extension cable or UPS power between premises without a suitably qualified Electrician supervising or specifying wiring and earthing scheme.

Just to make it clear, you're saying that it's a bad idea for me to let my neighbor use my router by connecting his PC via a 10-metre CAT5 because of the risks outline above?

bricks · 04-02-2011 3:43pm

watty wrote: »

Never ever connect different houses together with any kind of cable without being qualified. Neighbour's mains and yours is over 380V difference. You need isolation and/or a bonded earth to main earth wire to do it safely!

I assume all the rack mountable stuff has this 380v certification?
Or does the datacentre just have the special ground setup?

watty · 05-02-2011 1:21pm

Special ground setups.
Earthed racks
all kinds of wiring and earth bonding stuff.

The gear in datacentre racks is regular 220V certified.

watty · 05-02-2011 1:34pm

Unregistered. wrote: »

Just to make it clear, you're saying that it's a bad idea for me to let my neighbor use my router by connecting his PC via a 10-metre CAT5 because of the risks outline above?

Yes. Though less so than coax cable sharing LNB or sky box RF2 out as RJ45 ethernet socket is supposedly isolated signalling.

Probably you should have

screened Plenum grade Cat5e.
interconnect cable via Earthed patch panels. 4mm dedicated earth wire to main building earth point.

You'd need to seek qualified advice.

It may also contravene ISP T&C. Most don't allow sharing with others outside the home, but that's contractual, not safety

lucernarian · 05-02-2011 1:55pm

Here's a question for you watty. Many people in urban areas have coaxial cables going from their TV to a tap outside, while their neighbour also has a cable from their TV to the same tap. How do UPC deal with the voltage differences that would result? Surely the shielding going from one TV is bonded with the neigbour's TV through the shared tap or splitter?

Chapo · 05-02-2011 3:06pm

Just to offer some background information.
For the past 10 years the voltages in Europe have been harmonised at 230 Volts. Previously the UK/NI had a voltage of 240 and the rest of Europe (including ROI) was 220 Volts. Single Phase Voltage is now 230 all over Europe.
Three Phase voltage in the UK was 440 Volts and Europe was 380 Volts before harmonisation. The harmonised 3 Phase Voltage is now 400 Volts.

When wiring houses in an estate the ESB shares the load over three phases. If we call the Phases 1 – 2 – 3 the first house on the block gets Phase 1 and the Neutral. The second house gets Phase 2 and the Neutral and the third house gets Phase 3 and the Neutral. This sequence repeats along the rest of the buildings.
The voltage between any two phases is 400 Volts. So if I get a shock between a live cable in my house and either of my neighbours’ live cable - 400 Volts will drive current through me; rather than the (still very dangerous) normal 230 volts. This will usually kill you.

The box from UPC has an isolation circuit to prevent backfeed contamination from neighbouring house electricity supplies. LAN, without this filter, connected in neighbouring houses can be extremely dangerous if multiple power supplies are used from different houses.

watty · 05-02-2011 6:36pm

If you work out the allowed tolerance, you'll find we can be in "limit" at 380V and the UK at nearly 440V

Or so it used to be when the Harmonisation was introduced. What's -5% and +10% of 400?

In the days on "live chassis" TV the chassis of TV would be about 110V, 220V (thus up to 380V approx between TVs in different houses) or nearly zero depending on plug wiring and design of PSU. The aerial socket was "isolated" with a pair of capacitors rated at 1,000V. But with LOADS of TVs on same cable the 50Hz current would add across all the aerial sockets. Some cable areas badly done in those days. You could get a shock, or see sparks connecting an earthed TV socket! Or if your TV had isolated chassis and you had audio out to HiFi, you would get almighty hum.

TV aerial sockets don't have such 1,000V isolation capacitors today as the chassis are not connected direct to mains any more (not since early 80s probably), though TVs used to last over 20 years. In fact I "recycled" a 1976 or 1978 live chassis model in about 2004. The mechanical channel select button unit was worn out. If you held in a button it still gave good RTE, TG4 and TV3 pictures.

UPC does things "properly" these days.

Chapo · 05-02-2011 7:06pm

I think both of us are warning of the potential dangers in this situation.

Nominal European Voltage is 230 Volts. ETCI National Wiring Rules say maximum allowed volt drop at appliance terminals is 4%. This means that Voltage at terminals may vary by 9.2 volts. But considering human threshold of sensation to current flow is 15mA and 50mA is likely to be fatal, these figures are not really debatable.

The internal impedance of the human body is about 1000 ohms so 230 Volts will cause 230 mA flow and 220 Volts will pressurise a 220 mA flow. Either figure will provide more than 4 times enough current to kill you. Fuses are NO PROTECTION in this scenario.

Unregistered. · 05-02-2011 10:12pm

watty wrote: »

It may also contravene ISP T&C. Most don't allow sharing with others outside the home, but that's contractual, not safety

Nice assumption there.

lucernarian · 07-02-2011 4:04pm

Unregistered. wrote: »

Nice assumption there.

I don't see how that's an assumption? Most broadband suppliers in this country don't allow sharing an internet connection between addresses whether using a physical connection or a wireless connection. Using wireless to share a connection would not be a safety issue.

Unregistered. · 07-02-2011 5:02pm

To_be_confirmed wrote: »

I don't see how that's an assumption? Most broadband suppliers in this country don't allow sharing an internet connection between addresses whether using a physical connection or a wireless connection. Using wireless to share a connection would not be a safety issue.

The assumption that connecting a neighbor's PC to another neighbour's router has anything to do with sharing an internet connection..

watty · 07-02-2011 6:11pm

It could be LAN gaming.

But sharing a connection is common. Often if the other person can't actually get Broadband, the ISP will facilitate. They are not happy at all otherwise. It's been common for unscrupulous "landlord" to get a domestic connection and "share it" without even a managed switch to all the units in a Apartment to meet College criteria for renting to students. Then one "torrents" and they are all sharing 64k or cut off.

Cat5 or Coax for UPC

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