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Who's baby is the IMF ?

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  • 02-12-2010 10:23pm
    #1
    yoshytoshy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,305 ✭✭✭


    I'm posting this in US politics ,because I see the IMF as an american organisation.
    But I don't know where I've got this from ,is it true ?


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    #2
    mike65
    Closed Accounts Posts: 88,978 ✭✭✭✭mike65


    http://www.imf.org/external/np/sec/memdir/members.htm


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    #3
    yoshytoshy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,305 ✭✭✭yoshytoshy


    I looked at that site mike ,it's a list of governors etc. I'm wondering what dealings the US had with the IMF when they were having trouble in the last few years ?


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    #4
    mike65
    Closed Accounts Posts: 88,978 ✭✭✭✭mike65


    None at all as far as I know, the Fed simply printed money.


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    #5
    yoshytoshy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,305 ✭✭✭yoshytoshy


    Thats my biggest question of all the troubles in the last few years ,the US prints money off to generate growth and the rest of the world has to pick up the pieces.

    We're paying high interest rates on money thats gone missing ,when america just prints the stuff off at a whim:(


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    #6
    mike65
    Closed Accounts Posts: 88,978 ✭✭✭✭mike65


    Pity we don't have the freedom to do likewise, a bit of careful QE wouldn't hurt.

    OT Italy is very much the poor cousin of the big boys, same size as UK and France but significantly less commitment/voting power.


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    #7
    yoshytoshy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,305 ✭✭✭yoshytoshy


    It's a horrible thought ,but it's as if countries who go to war ,also use quantitive easing.

    I don't blame economists for saying we should default and start over.


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    #8
    godtabh
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 23,209 Mod ✭✭✭✭godtabh


    isnt the printing of money related to gold reserves? ie I can print money but it is worthless where as the government can print it because it has something of value to back it?


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    #9
    yoshytoshy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,305 ✭✭✭yoshytoshy


    godtabh wrote: »
    isnt the printing of money related to gold reserves? ie I cant print money but it is worthless where as the government can print it because it has something of value to back it?

    I understood quantitive easing to weaken a currency ,but if it's loaded onto the world economy ,surely it weakens the global economy.


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    #10
    godtabh
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 23,209 Mod ✭✭✭✭godtabh


    yoshytoshy wrote: »
    I understood quantitive easing to weaken a currency ,but if it's loaded onto the world economy ,surely it weakens the global economy.

    couldnt tell you!

    i'm just trying to understand why the US can print money and we cant


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    #11
    EastTexas
    Closed Accounts Posts: 251 ✭✭EastTexas


    godtabh wrote: »
    couldnt tell you!

    i'm just trying to understand why the US can print money and we cant

    Because it’s our currency.
    If Ireland had it’s own currency and not the Euro it could do the same and adjust to economic ups and downs.


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    #12
    EastTexas
    Closed Accounts Posts: 251 ✭✭EastTexas


    yoshytoshy wrote: »
    I'm posting this in US politics ,because I see the IMF as an american organisation.
    But I don't know where I've got this from ,is it true ?

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Monetary_Fund


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    #13
    Black Swan
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 47,236 CMod ✭✭✭✭Black Swan


    yoshytoshy wrote: »
    I'm posting this in US politics ,because I see the IMF as an american organisation.
    But I don't know where I've got this from ,is it true ?

    The US has 16.74 percent of the votes on IMF.

    Source: http://www.imf.org/external/np/sec/memdir/members.htm


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    #14
    robbyvibes
    Closed Accounts Posts: 90 ✭✭robbyvibes


    US are the only country with veto power.
    There's nothing "international" about it.

    It's a US organisation and yes, US can print it's own money whenever it wants and lend to banks at 0% interest.

    We are stuck with an incredibly corrupt banking system unfortunately.

    Ireland's bailout will all go to the banks - every cent.
    Irish tax payers will pick up the bill.


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    #15
    Dj Stiggie
    Registered Users Posts: 619 ✭✭✭Dj Stiggie


    It is actually regarded that the IMF is a European organisation and the World Bank is American. However, the voting power of the IMF is based on the size of an economy so the US is the largest. (Currently China has a very low vote compared to the size of its economy) However, the EU as a whole is bigger.


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    #16
    robbyvibes
    Closed Accounts Posts: 90 ✭✭robbyvibes


    If it really is EU org, why are the US only country with veto?

    In order to make important decisions, there needs to be 85% approval among members because the US can block it otherwise.

    Germany requested US give up its veto.

    Germany is biggest economy in EU and they don't have veto..

    If IMF is EU organisation, why can't they lend money at lower interest to it's member states in an act of solidarity that those MEP's keep talking about?

    Doesn't appear to be an EU organisation to me...they might have 30% voting power, but when the US has veto, doesn't matter if you have 70%


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    #17
    Dj Stiggie
    Registered Users Posts: 619 ✭✭✭Dj Stiggie


    robbyvibes wrote: »
    If it really is EU org, why are the US only country with veto?

    In order to make important decisions, there needs to be 85% approval among members because the US can block it otherwise.

    Germany requested US give up its veto.

    Germany is biggest economy in EU and they don't have veto..

    If IMF is EU organisation, why can't they lend money at lower interest to it's member states in an act of solidarity that those MEP's keep talking about?

    Doesn't appear to be an EU organisation to me...they might have 30% voting power, but when the US has veto, doesn't matter if you have 70%

    The only time the EU was mentioned on the previous is page is when I said the EU has a bigger combined economy than the US. I said its a European organisation, and that's not strictly true.

    At the Bretton Woods Conference in 1944, all the Allied nations came together to form the what is now the World Bank and the IMF. Essentially, the World Bank now helps developing nations, while the IMF is the lender of last resort. Neither strictly helps only the US or only Europe, but as their as the brain-children (sounds odd) of the West, they are controlled by the West. To ensure that neither the US or Europe dominated the world's capital funds, which is essentially what they are, it was decided that an American would head the World Bank, and a European the IMF.

    However, the US dominance in voting in the IMF is that it has the world's largest economy, and it gives the most to the IMF fund. If Germany wanted to have a veto, theoretically all the would have to do is give a heap of money to the fund.

    I took this from the IMF website, it should explain the system better than I am:
    IMF wrote:
    Upon joining, each member of the IMF is assigned a quota, based broadly on its relative size in the world economy. The IMF's membership agreed in May 2008 on a rebalancing of its quota system to reflect the changing global economic realities, especially the increased weight of major emerging markets in the global economy. For more on the quota and voice reform, please go to the section on Country Representation in the Governance section).

    A member's quota delineates basic aspects of its financial and organizational relationship with the IMF, including:

    Subscriptions. A member's quota subscription determines the maximum amount of financial resources the member is obliged to provide to the IMF. A member must pay its subscription in full upon joining the IMF: up to 25 percent must be paid in the IMF's own currency, called Special Drawing Rights (SDRs) or widely accepted currencies (such as the dollar, the euro, the yen, or pound sterling), while the rest is paid in the member's own currency.

    Voting power. The quota largely determines a member's voting power in IMF decisions. Each IMF member has 250 basic votes plus one additional vote for each SDR 100,000 of quota. Accordingly, the United States has 371,743 votes (16.77 percent of the total), and Palau has 281 votes (0.01 percent of the total). The newly agreed quota and voice reform will result in a significant shift in the representation of dynamic economies, many of which are emerging market countries, through a quota increase for 54 member countries. A tripling of the number of basic votes is also envisaged as a means to give poorer countries a greater say in running the institution.

    Access to financing. The amount of financing a member can obtain from the IMF (its access limit) is based on its quota. Under Stand-By and Extended Arrangements, which are types of loans, a member can borrow up to 200 percent of its quota annually and 600 percent cumulatively. However, access may be higher in exceptional circumstances.

    SDR allocations. Allocations of SDRs, the IMF's unit of account, is used as an international reserve asset. A member's share of general SDR allocations is established in proportion to its quota. The most recent general allocation of SDRs took place in 2009.

    Source: http://www.imf.org/external/about/members.htm


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    #18
    SamHarris
    Registered Users Posts: 1,633 ✭✭✭SamHarris


    It is an American organisation in as much as everything is in the international system. The the US has veto power in the UN, the UN is not an American organistaion

    Its veto power (in the IMF) is based on the number of votes it has; it is not based on the fact its the US. that is to say any action requires a certain percentage of votes, the US is the only one that controls the threshold alone, although it is very low (85% is needed, the US controls 17%). I believe it puts just enough money in to control the veto, for obvious reasons.

    Your observation that the EU could own 70% and still not "own" the IMF, because the US would still with 18% is clearly circular.


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    #19
    SamHarris
    Registered Users Posts: 1,633 ✭✭✭SamHarris


    godtabh wrote: »
    couldnt tell you!

    i'm just trying to understand why the US can print money and we cant

    Size, power, importance to the international system. And they own their own currency.

    Money has not been based on gold reserves since 1970's (the US was the last to change, they still have by far the biggest gold reserves, followed by Germany in a distant second, the 3rd is about on parity with Germany, our friends, the IMF) Money is now a medium of exchange, rather than a defered payment. If that makes sense to everyone... It didnt really to me for a bit, now it couldnt make more sense.


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    #20
    yoshytoshy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,305 ✭✭✭yoshytoshy


    Just one other thing I wanted to throw in with all the other information in here is ,if America is in so much debt ,how can it actually fund the IMF in monetary terms ?

    It's seems like a bit of a farce to me ,especially because china has so much invested in American bonds.


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    #21
    robbyvibes
    Closed Accounts Posts: 90 ✭✭robbyvibes


    It's in US court records that the Federal Reserve is a private entity which creates money out of nothing and lends to banking institutions at 0%

    How can 1 private institution like this determine the wealth of so many people in the world? is it not criminal? I believe it is.

    Those banks who borrow this money from the federal reserve then have the choice of purchasing real wealth from other countries like gold, silver, oil, gas..etc

    I find it fascinating that 1 country can dominate so many with using such a fraudulent system.

    Let's be honest about it all.

    "Federal Reserve" - not a government organisation, it's privately owned.
    "World Bank" - a US bank who bankrupts developing nations.
    "International Monetary Fund" - debt collection agency for "World Bank"

    These organisations are nothing more than criminal syndicates.
    Moreover, the IMF were already bankrupt but Lenihan/Cowen were happy to hand them most of the pension reserve fund.

    I await to see what bonuses the IMF fraudsters get this xmas...
    Let's wait and see where the bailout money goes.

    I've no doubt, not one single doubt 90% of that bailout money will go straight into the insolvent banks and the Irish tax payer will pay for it all.

    IMHO, anyone who believes the IMF are here to help Ireland are insane.


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    #22
    yoshytoshy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,305 ✭✭✭yoshytoshy


    robbyvibes wrote: »
    IMHO, anyone who believes the IMF are here to help Ireland are insane.

    Personally I don't think they're here to help ,but it will make it easier for us to get things back on track.
    It's just crazy to be charging us a high interest rate ,when it's clear the biggest culprits aren't paying nearly enough.


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    #23
    Anonymous1987
    Closed Accounts Posts: 784 ✭✭✭Anonymous1987


    robbyvibes wrote: »
    It's in US court records that the Federal Reserve is a private entity which creates money out of nothing and lends to banking institutions at 0%

    How can 1 private institution like this determine the wealth of so many people in the world? is it not criminal? I believe it is.

    Those banks who borrow this money from the federal reserve then have the choice of purchasing real wealth from other countries like gold, silver, oil, gas..etc

    I find it fascinating that 1 country can dominate so many with using such a fraudulent system.
    The Federal Reserve is independent of government not private, somewhat similar, but not the same, as the way that the Supreme Court is independent of the Executive and Congress, this is to prevent political interference in the money supply
    Who owns the Federal Reserve?

    The Federal Reserve System is not "owned" by anyone and is not a private, profit-making institution. Instead, it is an independent entity within the government, having both public purposes and private aspects.
    As the nation's central bank, the Federal Reserve derives its authority from the U.S. Congress. It is considered an independent central bank because its decisions do not have to be ratified by the President or anyone else in the executive or legislative branch of government, it does not receive funding appropriated by Congress, and the terms of the members of the Board of Governors span multiple presidential and congressional terms. However, the Federal Reserve is subject to oversight by Congress, which periodically reviews its activities and can alter its responsibilities by statute. Also, the Federal Reserve must work within the framework of the overall objectives of economic and financial policy established by the government. Therefore, the Federal Reserve can be more accurately described as "independent within the government."
    The twelve regional Federal Reserve Banks, which were established by Congress as the operating arms of the nation's central banking system, are organized much like private corporations--possibly leading to some confusion about "ownership." For example, the Reserve Banks issue shares of stock to member banks. However, owning Reserve Bank stock is quite different from owning stock in a private company. The Reserve Banks are not operated for profit, and ownership of a certain amount of stock is, by law, a condition of membership in the System. The stock may not be sold, traded, or pledged as security for a loan; dividends are, by law, 6 percent per year.
    http://www.federalreserve.gov/generalinfo/faq/faqfrs.htm#5
    robbyvibes wrote: »
    I've no doubt, not one single doubt 90% of that bailout money will go straight into the insolvent banks and the Irish tax payer will pay for it all.

    IMHO, anyone who believes the IMF are here to help Ireland are insane.
    Of the 85bn bailout, 50bn will be earmarked for the government and the remaining 35bn will be towards the recapitalisation of the banks (10bn) and a contingency fund for further recapitalisation (25bn). When you consider that 17.5bn of the 85bn bailout package is actually funded by the Irish government then really only 32.5bn is going to the Irish government. Then at present 52% of the "bailout" is going to the banks, shocking in itself.


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    #24
    Anonymous1987
    Closed Accounts Posts: 784 ✭✭✭Anonymous1987


    yoshytoshy wrote: »
    Just one other thing I wanted to throw in with all the other information in here is ,if America is in so much debt ,how can it actually fund the IMF in monetary terms ?

    It's seems like a bit of a farce to me ,especially because china has so much invested in American bonds.
    As SamHarris posted, the IMF isn't an extension of the US government, its just the US is the dominant voter. In addition, the IMF only requires funding from members on joining or when the quota is reviewed.


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