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Judge overturns California's ban on same-sex marriage

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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 8,417 ✭✭✭Miguel_Sanchez


    Just reposting this from A&A, because it's quite beautifully put.


    That's an impressive speech. Very very well put.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,475 ✭✭✭drkpower


    Jakkass wrote: »
    drkpower: It seems you are more into condescension and patronising rather than actually entering into a discussion, which is regrettable.

    If you read back a few pages ago, I mentioned why I felt that political activism wasn't ever the best way to deal with such disputes on things that can radically change an entire society and its workings (marriage being one of the fundamentals which society itself hinges on).

    Political or judicial activism, Jakkass......?:rolleyes::D Which one did you have the problem with again?

    Jakkass, you have proven time & time again that you are not equipped for serious discussion, most particularly when it comes to legal concepts.

    Your laughable replies above to the effect that:
    a) a court declaring that a public decision to massively curb personal rights (ie. to practice religon or to wear short-skirts) was anti-democratic, but that you could, eh, kinda see some grounds for the decision:D
    b) you think any court overturning a public decision is anti-democratic, but you welcome the Supreme Court making such a decision:D

    just show either of the following:

    1. you have absolutely no understanding of law or,
    2. more likely, you realise that your own position (overturning Prop 8 is anti-democratic) has backed you into a corner and, instead of simply admitting your error, you compound the problem, in an incredibly cowardly fashion, by pretending to hold a number of other non-sensical positions.

    Either way, you are not someone that anyone with sense would enter into a serious discussion with. Once in a while, I engage you to see if you are capable of serious discussion; each time you prove you are not. You are a sideshow, a distraction, someone people like me toy with for a little entertainment whilst bored.


  • Registered Users Posts: 41,022 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    Jakkass wrote: »
    I'm willing to discuss with people if they are willing to do so in courtesy, if not I quite frankly could be doing better things with my time. Discussing about the big issues is one of the things I like doing, but only in the right context.
    So you're contextualising my question so that you can refuse to answer?
    Johnnymcg wrote: »
    Out of interest - Do you think that the 1988 ECHR Norris judgement was wrong?

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



  • Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    drkpower wrote: »
    Political or judicial activism, Jakkass......?:rolleyes::D Which one did you have the problem with again?

    Judicial activism - which is what happened in this case. (See in context of the Prop 8 ruling)
    broad interpretation: an interpretation of the U.S. constitution holding that the spirit of the times and the needs of the nation can legitimately influence judicial decisions (particularly decisions of the Supreme Court)
    drkpower wrote: »
    a) a court declaring that a public decision to massively curb personal rights (ie. to practice religon or to wear short-skirts) was anti-democratic, but that you could, eh, kinda see some grounds for the decision:D

    Absolutely, because there is a clear difference. One is blatantly against the constitution and one isn't. I've also said clearly on this thread, that I think the system itself isn't the best (which you've broadly ignored) and I think a system along the lines of the Swiss one is much better where the peoples vote is respected (which again you've ignored)
    drkpower wrote: »
    b) you think any court overturning a public decision is anti-democratic, but you welcome the Supreme Court making such a decision:D

    Again, entirely misinterpreting my posts.

    I said, that I would like to see it go to the Supreme Court so an end could be put to the matter of marriage. I'm not saying that this is the best system (which you've broadly ignored), I'm saying that since this is where it is headed, it is probably the best option at this point in time.

    drkpower, if this is the type of discussion you wish to have riddled with ad-hominems etc, I'm really not that interested!

    I'm going to give you where I currently stand:

    1. I believe the decision made by Judge Walker in respect to Proposition 8 was wrong because:
    - It shows contempt for the vote of the people of California (anti-democratic)
    AND
    - Proposition 8 does not seem to be blatantly unconstitutional.

    Johnnymcg wrote: »
    So you're contextualising my question so that you can refuse to answer?

    For the third or fourth time - No, I don't, and I've given explanation as to why!


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Politics Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 81,309 CMod ✭✭✭✭coffee_cake


    Jakkass wrote: »
    1. I believe the decision made by Judge Walker in respect to Proposition 8 was wrong because:
    - It shows contempt for the vote of the people of California (anti-democratic)
    Why do you keep bringing this up when the system is set up to work that way? He's working within the american system and is correct to overturn a vote if necessary.
    - Proposition 8 does not seem to be blatantly unconstitutional
    Are you a legal expert now? :confused:


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    bluewolf wrote: »
    Why do you keep bringing this up when the system is set up to work that way? He's working within the american system and is correct to overturn a vote if necessary.

    Why can't people just read my posts? :pac:
    Jakkass wrote:
    I've also said clearly on this thread, that I think the system itself isn't the best (which you've broadly ignored) and I think a system along the lines of the Swiss one is much better where the peoples vote is respected (which again you've ignored)

    If the system has caused this much of a muck-up on same-sex marriage in California it isn't the best system is it?


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Politics Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 81,309 CMod ✭✭✭✭coffee_cake


    Jakkass wrote: »
    If the system has caused this much of a muck-up on same-sex marriage in California it isn't the best system is it?

    Why don't you go argue that on politics as a generality then instead of moaning about the one typical gay marriage issue? I don't see you fighting the system on any other rulings ?

    edit: Not to mention even if you do have problems with the system itself, that's completely different to saying "I think the judge was wrong to make this ruling".


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    bluewolf wrote: »
    Why don't you go argue that on politics as a generality then instead of moaning about the one typical gay marriage issue? I don't see you fighting the system on any other rulings ?

    Not at the minute though. This thread is about the judge overturning Proposition 8. I have an opinion on that, therefore on a discussion board, I should be able to express that opinion. I mean I thought that's how this thing worked? :confused:

    Although I'm not sure if there is really that much more to be said at this point.
    bluewolf wrote: »
    Edit: Not to mention even if you do have problems with the system itself, that's completely different to saying "I think the judge was wrong to make this ruling".

    I both think the system is flawed, and I think that the judge was wrong to make this ruling. It is possible.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,148 ✭✭✭plein de force


    as others have said the majority shouldn't really get to decide on the rights of a minority, to me as gay it's like being asked should a straight couple have the right to be married? as it doesn't affect my life in any way and i don't know the two people involved who am i to pass judgement on the strenght of their love? and that works both ways i think in regards to gay marriage.
    When you put away religious views which have no place in the law and legislation of a secular state there is no real reason to be against it, and don't use the 'marriage is for the protection of children' argument, as in that case infertile, straight couples wouldn't be allowed marry either.
    When jakass says he/she is in support of civil unions and not marriage it's important for them to know the benefits not given can be crushingly difficult, a lot of civil partnership legislation around the world do not allow for two same sex partners to make each other next-of-kin. When one partner, if they got sick, the myriad of problems that throws up for the other partner as in making the decisions the other is no longer able to do. A straight couple can do that and make decisions on care etc.

    some people have probably seen this ad before, i think it captures my first point well


  • Registered Users Posts: 22 hairyeggs


    Jakkass wrote: »
    Having said that, even though I oppose altering marriage, I would have respected this more if the people of California voted for this rather than having it imposed top down by a judge, who in this case could be argued to be biased in his judgement.
    Why?
    Jakkass wrote: »
    In that case I think it was a bad decision, but it is up to the Swiss to decide how they wish to deal with Islam.
    So you'd agree then that simple majoritarianism can have a detrimental impact on minority groups?


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  • Registered Users Posts: 5,475 ✭✭✭drkpower


    Jakkass wrote: »
    Absolutely, because there is a clear difference. One is blatantly against the constitution and one isn't. I've also said clearly on this thread, that I think the system itself isn't the best (which you've broadly ignored) and I think a system along the lines of the Swiss one is much better where the peoples vote is respected (which again you've ignored)

    Says Jakkass, the constitutional lawyer:D. One judge, and one judge alone, has spoken oin whether Prop 8 is unconstitutional. He said it is. But you base your entire argument on your own legal analysis of the US constitution.

    But there is the thing you are missing. Whether the principle of a judge over-ruling a popular vote (on the basis of unconstitutionality) is anti-democratic or not is independent of what the subject matter is. To state, as you do, that it is anti-democratic because you believe the subject matter is constitutional, is utterly absurd. You either dont see that or you fail to see it. Its inellectual ignorance or cowardice?

    As for a debate on the Swiss system, thats for another day (and with another person, with more knowledge than you). This is a discussion on the US system.
    Jakkass wrote: »
    I said, that I would like to see it go to the Supreme Court so an end could be put to the matter of marriage. I'm not saying that this is the best system (which you've broadly ignored), I'm saying that since this is where it is headed, it is probably the best option at this point in time.

    Laughable. Your fundamental issue is with the anti-democratic nature of a judge over-ruling a popular vote. Anyone who held to that position would be vehemently opposed to another judge, in another court, making the decision. But not you.:D Of course, we all know that the second the SC agree with the Claifornian judge (if they do), you will be shouting from the rooftops about how anti-democratic the decision was. You dont have the courage to hold to your position and to the consequences of that position. It is moral cowardice, plain and simple.
    Jakkass wrote: »
    drkpower, if this is the type of discussion you wish to have riddled with ad-hominems etc, I'm really not that interested! .
    Stop crying. The contents of your own posts attack themselves.


  • Registered Users Posts: 22 hairyeggs


    Jakkass wrote: »
    Proposition 8 does not seem to be blatantly unconstitutional.
    "Does not seem to be"? The judge concluded that it was unconstitional. Whether it was slightly unconstitutional or blatantly unconstitutional doesn't matter a damn.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,682 ✭✭✭LookingFor


    Jakkass wrote: »
    Judicial activism - which is what happened in this case. (See in context of the Prop 8 ruling)

    You must not actually have investigated this case or its judgement if you continue to ad hominem attack this judge as an activist.

    I defy you in face of the case brought to him to say that there was any reasonable scope for ANY judge to find differently than he did. The defense should be embarrassed about the case they brought.

    Jakkass wrote: »
    Absolutely, because there is a clear difference. One is blatantly against the constitution and one isn't.

    It isn't?

    The judge elucidated the grounds on which he found it to be unconstitutional under two uncontroversial parts of the constitution quite eloquently. He didn't hinge it on anything tenuous wrt minority protection or such. It was based on core 'solid' parts of the constitution and Supreme Court precedent.

    He hasn't made it easy for courts further up to overturn his judgment. Which is not to say they couldn't, SC judges are not unknown for torturing their position to bringing something around to their viewpoint, but I would hate to be the judge tasked with overturning this.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    drkpower it's really this simple:

    1. I believe that it was anti-democratic to dismiss the vote of the Californian people
    2. I believe that this vote wasn't unconstitutional.
    3. I believe that a system that allows for more democratic input is better.
    4. I would accept in full, that the people had decided to legalise same-sex marriage if they actually voted for it.

    It's really absurd how much of a desire that you have to twist my posts about.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,475 ✭✭✭drkpower


    Jakkass wrote: »
    drkpower it's really this simple:

    1. I believe that it was anti-democratic to dismiss the vote of the Californian people
    2. I believe that this vote wasn't unconstitutional.
    3. I believe that a system that allows for more democratic input is better.
    4. I would accept in full, that the people had decided to legalise same-sex marriage if they actually voted for it.

    It's really absurd how much of a desire that you have to twist my posts about.

    1. If it was anti-democratic to dismiss this vote of the Californian people, then it must be anti-democratic to dismiss any vote of the Californian people; you dont have the capacity to see or answer this point.

    2. Your belief is irrelevent. You have clearly shown you have a fundamental misunderstanding of most legal concepts. But if you really believe this, please explain why, with reference to the equal protection clause (and please dont bother saying 'well, loads of other states have it and its never been declared unconstitutional', which is the only argument you have made thus far - it is irrelevent - loads of states had racial segregation before that was declared unconstitutional).

    3. I dont care what you think about more democratic input; we are discussing Prop 8 & the US system.

    4. So what. Do you know how the US system works? Do you know how the US Constitution was enacted or how it is amended? Do you know why the US founders chose to implement a system that protects the people from 'simple majority rule'? Clearly not.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,715 ✭✭✭irelandrover


    sorry if this has already been answered.
    What is teh difference between civil partnership and marriage.
    I always thought that marriage was performed in a church in front of a priest and civil partnership was performed in a city hall. THerefore a civil partnership gave all the legal rights of a marriage except for the ability to adopt.


  • Moderators, Regional Abroad Moderators Posts: 26,928 Mod ✭✭✭✭rainbow kirby


    sorry if this has already been answered.
    What is teh difference between civil partnership and marriage.
    I always thought that marriage was performed in a church in front of a priest and civil partnership was performed in a city hall. THerefore a civil partnership gave all the legal rights of a marriage except for the ability to adopt.

    In the Irish context: Summary analysis of civil partnership - CP falls far short of the legal rights of full civil marriage.

    What's performed in a church is the religious ceremony. In the eyes of the law, the marriage occurs when the register is signed, whether that's as part of a religious ceremony or in a registry office.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,314 ✭✭✭sink




  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,090 Mod ✭✭✭✭Tar.Aldarion


    Knew the site before I clicked :p


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 32,865 ✭✭✭✭MagicMarker


    sink wrote: »
    The ad before it is fantastic!! I want old spice!!


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  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,090 Mod ✭✭✭✭Tar.Aldarion


    The ad before it is fantastic!! I want old spice!!

    He has loads of vids, they are sooo good.


    This post is now diamonds.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,681 ✭✭✭bodice ripper


    as an american, I am thrilled.

    I thought we held these truths to be self evident.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 7,102 ✭✭✭Stinicker




  • Registered Users Posts: 8,405 ✭✭✭gizmo


    Found this pretty amusing too. :)


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 32,865 ✭✭✭✭MagicMarker


    http://www.cnn.com/2010/US/08/12/california.same.sex.ruling/index.html?hpt=T1
    Judge gives the green light for same-sex marriage in California

    A federal judge ruled on Thursday to allow same-sex couples to marry in California, starting on August 18, handing another victory to supporters of gay rights in a case that both sides have said is likely to end up in the U.S. Supreme Court.

    Chief U.S. District Judge Vaughn Walker in San Francisco struck down the state's ban on same-sex marriage last week, ruling that voter-approved Proposition 8 violates the U.S. Constitution. Walker had issued a temporary stay on his decision, which on Thursday he said he would lift.

    The high-profile case is being watched closely by supporters and opponents of same-sex marriage, as many say it is likely to make its way to the U.S. Supreme Court. If it does, the case could result in a landmark decision on whether people in the United States are allowed to marry others of the same sex.

    Same-sex marriage is legal in five U.S. states and in the District of Columbia, while civil unions are permitted in New Jersey. The five states are Massachusetts, Connecticut, Vermont, Iowa and New Hampshire.

    Same-sex couples in California were permitted to marry, briefly, before Proposition 8 passed in 2008.
    "Today's ruling means that in less than one week, equality under the law will be restored for millions of loving families across California," said Rick Jacobs, founder of the Courage Campaign.

    Proposition 8 is part of a long line of seesaw rulings, court cases, debates and protests over the controversial issue of same-sex marriage. Proposition 8 defines marriage as a union between a man and woman and passed in California with some 52 percent of the vote in November 2008.

    Opponents of same-sex marriage have said their best bet lies with higher courts and have vowed to appeal the federal judge's ruling. The case would head next to the 9th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals before possibly going to the U.S. Supreme Court.
    In his decision, Walker expressed his doubt that an appeal would be successful.

    "Based on the trial record, which establishes that Proposition 8 violates plaintiffs' equal protection and due process rights, the court cannot conclude that proponents have shown a likelihood of success on appeal," he wrote.

    People in the United States are split over the idea of allowing same-sex marriage. Forty-nine percent of respondents said they think gay and lesbian couples have the constitutional right to marry and to have their marriages recognized by law, while 51 percent say those rights do not exist, according to a new CNN/Opinion Research Corporation Poll.


  • Moderators, Regional Abroad Moderators Posts: 26,928 Mod ✭✭✭✭rainbow kirby


    Fantastic! :)


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,944 ✭✭✭✭Links234


    Yay! :D


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 32,865 ✭✭✭✭MagicMarker


    http://www.cnn.com/2010/US/08/17/same.sex.marriage/index.html?hpt=T1
    An appeals court ruling temporarily blocking same-sex marriages from resuming in California drew strong reactions from opponents and supporters of the state's controversial 2008 referendum on the issue.

    Couples hoping to marry rushed to cancel their plans after an order from the 9th Circuit Court of Appeals late Monday set aside a federal judge's decision earlier this month that would have permitted same-sex marriages to resume in California as early as Wednesday.

    And advocates on both sides of the issue said they were prepared to make their arguments in court.

    "This delay is just really going to screw us up," said Harry Seaman, who was planning to marry his boyfriend Friday afternoon.

    Friends and family had already been invited to celebrate, he said.

    "We got the first appointment we could get," he said. "I knew something was going to happen, but I just didn't know it was going to happen before we even got a chance."
    The appeals court Monday set a fast schedule to hear the merits of the constitutional challenge to Proposition 8, the 2008 initiative defining marriage as only between one man and one woman.

    Oral arguments will now be held the week of December 6, meaning a decision on whether same-sex couples can legally wed likely will not be decided until sometime next year.

    Andy Pugno, an attorney representing supporters of Proposition 8, said California's voters should be happy about Monday's ruling.

    "We just think today is a good day for the voters in general, to see the vote of the people actually upheld, even though it's not the final word yet," he told CNN affiliate KCRA. "We still have appeals to go through, but for the time being the vote of the people has been upheld."

    Opponents of Proposition 8 said they were disappointed by the ruling, but planned to continue their fight.

    "Every additional day that couples must wait to marry again in California is painful, but despite the terrible disappointment for the many couples whose right to marry has been delayed yet again, today's ruling includes another significant victory for our side," Kate Kendell, executive director of the National Center for Lesbian Rights, said in a statement. "The court did the right thing by putting the case on a fast track and specifically ordering that Prop 8 proponents show why they have a legal right to appeal."
    Opponents of Proposition 8 will not appeal Monday's ruling to the U.S. Supreme Court, according to spokesman Yousef Robb with the American Foundation for Equal Rights.

    Opponents could ask the Supreme Court to intervene on the narrow question of whether to allow the stay to be lifted, but both sides of the debate agree the odds of the justices getting involved at this stage are very slim.

    The case has had an up-and-down series of rulings and referendums. The state's high court had allowed same-sex marriage, but then the voter referendum two years ago passed with 52 percent of the vote. The California Supreme Court subsequently allowed that initiative to stand, saying it represented the will of the people.

    Opponents of the law next filed a federal challenge, saying the law violated 14th Amendment constitutional protections of due process and equal protection.
    Judge Vaughn Walker on August 4 agreed, ruling that the voter-approved ban on same-sex marriage violated federal civil rights laws.

    His 136-page opinion concluded that Proposition 8 "fails to advance any rational basis in singling out gay men and lesbians for denial of a marriage license." The Reagan-appointed judge added, "Proposition 8 does nothing more than enshrine in the California Constitution the notion that opposite-sex couples are superior to same-sex couples."
    Same sex marriage is currently legal in five states and in the District of Columbia, while civil unions are permitted in New Jersey. The five states are Massachusetts, Connecticut, Vermont, Iowa, and New Hampshire.

    Walker's landmark ruling assured a swift federal appeal that ultimately may reach the Supreme Court. One sticking point could be whether Proposition 8 supporters in court -- all private citizens and groups -- have legal "standing" to continue appealing the case. State officials, including the governor and attorney general, support individual same-sex couples challenging the law. Such state "actors" traditionally defend voter referendums and legislation.

    Some legal experts say if the appeals court eventually rules Proposition 8 backers cannot bring their petition for relief, the Supreme Court may not seek to intervene further, giving no clear guidance on the larger question of the constitutionality of same-sex marriage nationwide. The high court, in a 1997 unrelated appeal, had expressed "grave doubts" about the ability of such private groups to challenge rulings that strike down ballot initiatives.

    Walker's ruling had given the losing side a chance to appeal, and he held off allowing same-sex marriages from resuming until an emergency injunction request could be decided by the higher court.

    Among the federal appeals judges who agreed Monday to block same-sex marriages from resuming immediately was Sidney Thomas, a Montana native who was interviewed this spring by President Obama for the Supreme Court vacancy that eventually went to Elena Kagan.

    :mad:


  • Posts: 2,874 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Harry Seaman

    /snigger


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  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Politics Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 81,309 CMod ✭✭✭✭coffee_cake


    The appeals court Monday set a fast schedule
    Among the federal appeals judges who agreed Monday
    I never understood the American habit of dropping the "on".
    Is there an appeals court named "Monday"? Is "Monday" a form of agreement?!


    But on topic, that's annoying. The poor people who had their marriages planned :(


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