Still no answers for families of Dublin and Monaghan Bombings

wolfpawnat · 10-05-2010 11:18am

moonpurple wrote: »

at warrenpoint some english lads who had watched their friends blown to pieces in the roadside bomb and then in the secondary bomb at a gatekeepers lodge

saw two figures across the lough on the republic of ireland side, in the fog of war and in fear of sniper fire and in the normal madness of military attack,

they opened fire on the figures, a young english boy who had gone fishing with his cousin was killed by shots to his chest,

there are a lot of groupies on this thread who think that the rira and cira are cool, their infatuation is very clear though they think they are disguising it,

one more kid killed in a pointless conflict that some scum of the earth, human filth, garbage, want to continue

other kids include a kid in omagh, a kid in a british midlands town Warrington...many kids, many bombs and more to come without the right thinking of the majority of the gaels to stop it, chuir stad air,

our prisons here in the republic are open and ready for any rira and cira dogs and their admirers who wish to be kennelled

beidh sibh isteach ann gach la as do saol ag caint agus ag smaoneamh rudai uafasach agus grainneach

Paratroopers you mean, the same type of soldier that shot and killed 14 peaceful UNARMED civilians on Bloody Sunday (though the IRA members who planted their bombs did not know what Brit soldiers would pass their trap, it was sheer coincidence)

And that boy on the lake was Irish not English (as a citizen of NI he is Irish)

Do you know that it was mostly women and children bombed the day of the Dublin and Monaghan bombing? One 12 year old, with his arm blown to bits walked to Temple Street alone, 2 children under the age of 3 were blown to bits with their parents, one child was not found for ages as the poor thing was blown through the cellar grates of a pub! A pregnant woman due to give birth soon was blown to bits (in Omagh a woman pregnant with twins was killed)

You seem to think me finding acts of war as pro RIRA and CIRA, how such an assumption can be made I will never know!

Yes there are prisons ready for the Irish who are part of such attrocities, my question and the reason for this thread is why are the ochestrators of the Dublin and Monaghan bombings not in their with them?

FlutterinBantam · 10-05-2010 11:18am

moonpurple wrote: »

at warrenpoint some english lads who had watched their friends blown to pieces in the roadside bomb and then in the secondary bomb at a gatekeepers lodge

saw two figures across the lough on the republic of ireland side, in the fog of war and in fear of sniper fire and in the normal madness of military attack,

they opened fire on the figures, a young english boy who had gone fishing with his cousin was killed by shots to his chest,

there are a lot of groupies on this thread who think that the rira and cira are cool, their infatuation is very clear though they think they are disguising it,

one more kid killed in a pointless conflict that some scum of the earth, human filth, garbage, want to continue

other kids include a kid in omagh, a kid in a british midlands town Warrington...many kids, many bombs and more to come without the right thinking of the majority of the gaels to stop it, chuir stad air,

our prisons here in the republic are open and ready for any rira and cira dogs and their admirers who wish to be kennelled

beidh sibh isteach ann gach la as do saol ag caint agus ag smaoneamh rudai uafasach agus grainneach

They don't fool all of us Moon.

moonpurple · 10-05-2010 2:33pm

'nobody has a monopoly on grievance', Gerry Adams, final days before completion of the universally approved Good Friday Agreement

'Traitors' - Martin McGuinness when asked for his view of the most recent killing of an English soldier on the island of Ireland

the young boy whose aorta was punctured by m16 rounds when he just expected to be fishing that summer's day was a resident of England, a UK national of Irish ancestry

another young boy died that day as well in Sligo

the list is long but it has e n d e d

Nodin · 10-05-2010 3:14pm

moonpurple wrote: »

the young boy whose aorta was punctured by m16 rounds when he just expected to be fishing that summer's day was a resident of England, a UK national of Irish ancestry

'rounds from an m16' would be the better way of putting it. However the British Army used a type of rifle by FN back then, so its wrong in any event.

FTA69 · 10-05-2010 3:55pm

Beat me to it Nodin, the Brits used a Belgian FN rifle until they upgraded to the SA80.

OS119 · 10-05-2010 4:02pm

wolfpawnat wrote: »

Why are we allowing this still?

because nobody believes that anything will be gained by re-hashing old events.

the Bloody Sunday enquiry has acheived nothing, not one person on any side has altered their view of what happened and why, all sides believe the enquiry pandered to the political needs of all the other sides, and it has cost the best part of £400m - yes, Four Hundred Million Pounds.

it will make not one scintilla of difference to the views of people, it will - depending on your view - either be a whitewash or a witchunt.

neither state needs to 'move the process on' with a Dublin/Monaghan Enquiry - one of the reasons the BG decided to hold the Saville Enquiry - and neither will be wildly enthusiastic at the idea of exposing their guilt/incompetence to the world at great cost that could otherwise be used to mitigate the horrific cuts to public services for which they will be punished by their respective electorates.

there's nothing in it for either of the governments, and reasonable indications that both governments may find out things they'd rather not know. it will remain an 'unfortunate event' over which a discreet veil is best drawn.

wolfpawnat · 10-05-2010 4:04pm

Nodin wrote: »

'rounds from an m16' would be the better way of putting it. However the British Army used a type of rifle by FN back then, so its wrong in any event.

FTA69 wrote: »

Beat me to it Nodin, the Brits used a Belgian FN rifle until they upgraded to the SA80.

See you do learn something new everyday, I genuinely did not know this before ye posted it

wolfpawnat · 10-05-2010 4:15pm

OS119 wrote: »

because nobody believes that anything will be gained by re-hashing old events.

the Bloody Sunday enquiry has acheived nothing, not one person on any side has altered their view of what happened and why, all sides believe the enquiry pandered to the political needs of all the other sides, and it has cost the best part of £400m - yes, Four Hundred Million Pounds.

it will make not one scintilla of difference to the views of people, it will - depending on your view - either be a whitewash or a witchunt.

neither state needs to 'move the process on' with a Dublin/Monaghan Enquiry - one of the reasons the BG decided to hold the Saville Enquiry - and neither will be wildly enthusiastic at the idea of exposing their guilt/incompetence to the world at great cost that could otherwise be used to mitigate the horrific cuts to public services for which they will be punished by their respective electorates.

there's nothing in it for either of the governments, and reasonable indications that both governments may find out things they'd rather not know. it will remain an 'unfortunate event' over which a discreet veil is best drawn.

Oh that reminds me, totally OT but stay with me for a moment, was in the Imperial War Museum last summer, and went to the section on NI and it had a piece regarding Bloody Sunday. The piece stated that the Brit paratroopers returned fire on the protesters even though the Saville report clearly states that the paratroopers fired on unarmed civilians and continued firing when white flags were waved. Needless to say i had a healthy sized page of complaints on that! The Irish were responsible for some atrocities, dont accuse us of sh!te we didnt do!

And I think we can agree it would have cost them less if they had finished the report when they said they would and not have procrastinated on its publishing for so long. Also perhaps that £400m will remind the Brit soldiers to hold their fire until there is reason to shoot!!!!!

baalthor · 10-05-2010 4:31pm

lugha wrote: »

Ah, but this "dogs on the street know" type intelligence is more than sufficient when you are talking about the mid-deeds of British agents.

But when similar type intelligence was used to intern suspected republican activists, or suggest someone was a "member" or on the army council, it will be demanded that you produce court standard evidence.

Not quite the same thing ...

The allegation is that the British Government (or its agents) were in some way responsible for Dublin/Monaghan.

The examples you allude to were about individual people being accused.

There isn't any doubt about the existence of the IRA or its army council or the fact that it carried out bombings and killings.

The closest equivalent on the IRA/Republican side to Dublin/Monaghan would be the Kingsmill Massacre.

FTA69 · 10-05-2010 4:32pm

OS119 wrote: »

it will remain an 'unfortunate event' over which a discreet veil is best drawn.

Right, so British agents collaborate in bombings that result in the death of thirty Irish citizens, as well as a spate of other murders and your response is that it's best brushed under the rug? Collusion between British agencies and Loyalist paramilitaries was one of the worst aspects of the conflict in this country, and the reason it remains brushed under the rug is because of the embarrassment which it would bring toward the Brits internationally if the extent of it was publically disclosed. It would also completely overturn the bullsh*t image with which they tarred the war here, that being mad Paddies killing each other while they were caught in the middle. Of course the fact that they enthusiastically sponsored the killing of civilians both in their own jurisdiction and down here tells a different story entirely.

baalthor · 10-05-2010 5:01pm

moonpurple wrote: »

at warrenpoint some english lads who had watched their friends blown to pieces in the roadside bomb and then in the secondary bomb at a gatekeepers lodge

saw two figures across the lough on the republic of ireland side, in the fog of war and in fear of sniper fire and in the normal madness of military attack,

they opened fire on the figures, a young english boy who had gone fishing with his cousin was killed by shots to his chest,

there are a lot of groupies on this thread who think that the rira and cira are cool, their infatuation is very clear though they think they are disguising it,

one more kid killed in a pointless conflict that some scum of the earth, human filth, garbage, want to continue

other kids include a kid in omagh, a kid in a british midlands town Warrington...many kids, many bombs and more to come without the right thinking of the majority of the gaels to stop it, chuir stad air,

our prisons here in the republic are open and ready for any rira and cira dogs and their admirers who wish to be kennelled

beidh sibh isteach ann gach la as do saol ag caint agus ag smaoneamh rudai uafasach agus grainneach

Just what is the point you are trying to make ?

OS119 · 10-05-2010 5:10pm

FTA69 wrote: »

Right, so British agents collaborate in bombings that result in the death of thirty Irish citizens, as well as a spate of other murders and your response is that it's best brushed under the rug? Collusion between British agencies and Loyalist paramilitaries was one of the worst aspects of the conflict in this country, and the reason it remains brushed under the rug is because of the embarrassment which it would bring toward the Brits internationally if the extent of it was publically disclosed. It would also completely overturn the bullsh*t image with which they tarred the war here, that being mad Paddies killing each other while they were caught in the middle. Of course the fact that they enthusiastically sponsored the killing of civilians both in their own jurisdiction and down here tells a different story entirely.

you are suggesting that its in any governments interest to rake up this affair?

you think the political climate in the UK - or indeed the RoI - is demanding answers to this?

you think that unlike the Saville Enquiry, a Dublin/Monaghan Enquiry will increase the sum of human understanding, and bring constructive results that benefit the wider political process?

wolfpawnat · 10-05-2010 5:22pm

OS119 wrote: »

you think that unlike the Saville Enquiry, a Dublin/Monaghan Enquiry will increase the sum of human understanding, and bring constructive results that benefit the wider political process?

Fu€k politics, what about the innocent men women and children on both sides who both have died and those who survived with life altering injuries in some cases? If you were one of those people or a family member of theirs you would DESERVE an answer. And you know you would stop at nothing to get it!

Omagh, Dublin and Monaghan, etc. People need to know the truth. These animals should not get away with it, the Brit forces that aided in some of these atrocities are sitting at home with pensions for good service!!!!!! Killing innocent girls running for their train home, a family of 4 out for a walk, pregnant women have died in one of these cases alone, and those ba$tards are at home drinking tea rather than serving time!

FlutterinBantam · 10-05-2010 5:30pm

wolfpawnat wrote: »

Fu€k politics, what about the innocent men women and children on both sides who both have died and those who survived with life altering injuries in some cases? If you were one of those people or a family member of theirs you would DESERVE an answer. And you know you would stop at nothing to get it!

Omagh, Dublin and Monaghan, etc. People need to know the truth. These animals should not get away with it, the Brit forces that aided in some of these atrocities are sitting at home with pensions for good service!!!!!! Killing innocent girls running for their train home, a family of 4 out for a walk, pregnant women have died in one of these cases alone, and those ba$tards are at home drinking tea rather than serving time!

:eek:

What about the 'RA who slaughtered hundreds?

Bitterness will never achieve anything, or vague accusations.

aDeener · 10-05-2010 5:40pm

FlutterinBantam wrote: »

:eek:

What about the 'RA who slaughtered hundreds?

Bitterness will never achieve anything, or vague accusations.

ah i see you are a fan of whataboutery

this is a thread about monaghan/dublin.

vague accusations? just how naive are you?

FlutterinBantam · 10-05-2010 6:25pm

What do you know,and have you told the authorities.?

lugha · 10-05-2010 6:37pm

baalthor wrote: »

Not quite the same thing ...

The allegation is that the British Government (or its agents) were in some way responsible for Dublin/Monaghan.

The examples you allude to were about individual people being accused.

I fail to see the significance difference between the state and the individual?

My point was about consistency in relation to minimal standards of evidence.

wolfpawnat · 10-05-2010 7:12pm

FlutterinBantam wrote: »

:eek:

What about the 'RA who slaughtered hundreds?

Bitterness will never achieve anything, or vague accusations.

If you re read my post I mentioned Omagh!!:rolleyes:

And please if you wish to discuss the deaths of civilians caused by IRA groups, you are more than welcome to open your own thread, as I have done this!

OS119 · 10-05-2010 7:31pm

wolfpawnat wrote: »

If you re read my post I mentioned Omagh!!:rolleyes:

i have a great deal of sympathy with your view that justice should know no time limit, or be a respector of office - indeed in a less imperfect world i'd advocate it as policy in this - and all NI related matters, however justice requires equality and fairness.

only one side is being asked to, and is grudgingly prepared to, open up the dark corners of its history and be judged for its misdeeds.

whataboutery is normally ****etalk, but in this case it has a point - if the BG should confess its sins and open its books, then so should everyone else.

when PIRA/PSF start holding a serious, fairly independent inquiry with public results into their various attrocities - what happened, who authorised what, what went wrong, and why were decisions made - then i'd have no problem whatsoever with the concept of a wide-ranging public enquiry into BG/BA actions in NI with public naming and shaming of people who either fcuked-up or deliberately set policies that lead to the deaths of innocent civilians.

perhaps 'parity of esteem' should have a partner - 'parity of judgement'...

FlutterinBantam · 10-05-2010 7:32pm

wolfpawnat wrote: »

Paratroopers you mean, the same type of soldier that shot and killed 14 peaceful UNARMED civilians on Bloody Sunday (though the IRA members who planted their bombs did not know what Brit soldiers would pass their trap, it was sheer coincidence)

And that boy on the lake was Irish not English (as a citizen of NI he is Irish)

Do you know that it was mostly women and children bombed the day of the Dublin and Monaghan bombing? One 12 year old, with his arm blown to bits walked to Temple Street alone, 2 children under the age of 3 were blown to bits with their parents, one child was not found for ages as the poor thing was blown through the cellar grates of a pub! A pregnant woman due to give birth soon was blown to bits (in Omagh a woman pregnant with twins was killed)

You seem to think me finding acts of war as pro RIRA and CIRA, how such an assumption can be made I will never know!

Yes there are prisons ready for the Irish who are part of such attrocities, my question and the reason for this thread is why are the ochestrators of the Dublin and Monaghan bombings not in their with them?

Erm... you seem to think it's ok to bring in Bloody Sunday incidents under the aegis of the same thread but you critisise me for mentioning 'RA atrocities.;)

Consistency pal, that's what's required here, or didn't you know?

wolfpawnat · 10-05-2010 8:42pm

FlutterinBantam wrote: »

Erm... you seem to think it's ok to bring in Bloody Sunday incidents under the aegis of the same thread but you critisise me for mentioning 'RA atrocities.;)

Consistency pal, that's what's required here, or didn't you know?

In response to people speaking about Warrenpoint

OS119 wrote: »

i have a great deal of sympathy with your view that justice should know no time limit, or be a respector of office - indeed in a less imperfect world i'd advocate it as policy in this - and all NI related matters, however justice requires equality and fairness.

only one side is being asked to, and is grudgingly prepared to, open up the dark corners of its history and be judged for its misdeeds.

whataboutery is normally ****etalk, but in this case it has a point - if the BG should confess its sins and open its books, then so should everyone else.

when PIRA/PSF start holding a serious, fairly independent inquiry with public results into their various attrocities - what happened, who authorised what, what went wrong, and why were decisions made - then i'd have no problem whatsoever with the concept of a wide-ranging public enquiry into BG/BA actions in NI with public naming and shaming of people who either fcuked-up or deliberately set policies that lead to the deaths of innocent civilians.

perhaps 'parity of esteem' should have a partner - 'parity of judgement'...

I agree 110%. Gerry Adams has said that there should be an inquiry to every single atrocity to occur on both sides of the divide. If he is worth his word and if both other nationalists and unionists up north as well as both the BG and IG comply, every person who has lost a member of their family or those who have had to live on with life altering events should get the truth they so rightfully deserve.

I have said previously in this thread, and I am sure you can pick it up from my posts that I am nationalist republican, but I am not an extremist and I wish there was no violence on our island! Too many have died already and I hope never to turn on the news and see another again (though sadly I know this is not to be:() I just want justice and truth for everyone that has suffered, they deserve it, Omagh, D&M bombings, Bloody Sunday, Miami Showband Massacre, etc, everyone deserves the right to put this in there past, not just to be told by 2 governments that they have to!

wolfpawnat · 10-05-2010 8:44pm

FlutterinBantam wrote: »

Erm... you seem to think it's ok to bring in Bloody Sunday incidents under the aegis of the same thread but you critisise me for mentioning 'RA atrocities.;)

Consistency pal, that's what's required here, or didn't you know?

Also that post proves I tried to return the topic to my original point of D&M bombings

FTA69 · 10-05-2010 9:35pm

OS119 wrote: »

you are suggesting that its in any governments interest to rake up this affair?

Of course it isn't. It's hardly in the British government's interest to admit they sponsored the murder of their own citizens as well as admitting their agents aided in a massacre in a neighbouring state. Neither is it in the interests of the Dublin government to re-examine how they failed utterly and abysmally to investigate the matter properly, the fact all the files on the subject mysteriously "disappeared" would also have to be brought up.

you think the political climate in the UK - or indeed the RoI - is demanding answers to this?

Well British public opinion never gave a f*ck what happened in this country to be honest, and unfortunately in the south we have a situation where nobody is interested in properly investigating the massacre of thirty Irish citizens and the cover up that went on after it.

Unlike Bloody Sunday, which was a clear cut case of British soldiers unloading into unarmed demonstrators, the Dublin and Monaghan bombings raises far more murky and disturbing connotations that neither government would want to see unearthed.

OS119 · 10-05-2010 9:52pm

wolfpawnat wrote: »

...I agree 110%. Gerry Adams has said that there should be an inquiry to every single atrocity to occur on both sides of the divide. If he is worth his word and if both other nationalists and unionists up north as well as both the BG and IG comply...

there's the fundamental problem, nobody believes for an instant that there is any appetite or intention with Republicanism to have their dirty linen aired in public and to take the hits that this would entail - everyone believes that for Republicanism, 'truth, justice and openness' apply purely to everyone else, for PSF's political advantage, and have no place whatsoever within their own dark corners.

the BG might have considered wearing the hair shirt if they had any confidence that others would follow suit, but they aren't going to do it again when the evidence from the Saville Inquiry suggests that no other party is interested in cleaning house if it might get embarrassing.

the BG dipped its toe - however hesitantly - in the pool of 'truth and reconcilliation' and found that no one else wanted to take a dip. nobody can be overly surprised that they've decided not to do so again.

gurramok · 10-05-2010 11:36pm

OS119 wrote: »

the BG might have considered wearing the hair shirt if they had any confidence that others would follow suit, but they aren't going to do it again when the evidence from the Saville Inquiry suggests that no other party is interested in cleaning house if it might get embarrassing.

The BG are supposed to be a government of a sovereign country and take the moral high ground on such issues so as to be seen to be fair(that thing called law & justice), its not expected from a bunch of 'terrorists' so what you are saying is absurd unless you are saying miltant republicans were a legitimate fighting force with high standards.

Its the same for any government that claim to be legitimate in the eyes of the international world order, lead by example.

baalthor · 11-05-2010 12:38am

lugha wrote: »

I fail to see the significance difference between the state and the individual?
My point was about consistency in relation to minimal standards of evidence.

You can argue that a state or an organisation carried out a particular act based on circumstantial evidence. For example, Al Queda were held responsible for September 11 long before anyone was charged in relation to the attacks.

To arrest and imprison an individual usually requires a trial and proof of guilt beyond reasonable doubt, similarly accusing someone of a serious crime requires a high burden of proof.

So for example I can say: "The IRA carried out the Enniskillen bombing" and everyone will agree that this is what happened.
But I can't say: "Mr Joe Bloggs carried out the Enniskillen Bombing" unless Mr Bloggs has actually been found guilty (assuming he's still alive).

And as you can see from the article I linked, it's acceptable to discuss how much the IRA Army Council knew about Kingsmill even though no court-room level evidence has ever been produced to convict anyone.

So, people are not being inconsistent when on the one hand they argue against internment without trial or against accusing individuals of being terrorists while at the same time claiming that the government are guilty of serious transgressions.

Fratton Fred · 11-05-2010 10:27am

gurramok wrote: »

The BG are supposed to be a government of a sovereign country and take the moral high ground on such issues so as to be seen to be fair(that thing called law & justice), its not expected from a bunch of 'terrorists' so what you are saying is absurd unless you are saying miltant republicans were a legitimate fighting force with high standards.

Its the same for any government that claim to be legitimate in the eyes of the international world order, lead by example.

in a perfect world you would be right.

if the BG knew who was responsible for the Omagh bombing and yet could not bring charges against that person because of fear and intimidation, would you support their "Disappearance" to prevent the likely possibility of them doing the same thing again?

all governments have people who work in murky circumstances and when you are fighting an enemy that plays by whatever rules it sees fit, then i am glad that those people exist.

SlabMurphy · 11-05-2010 11:31am

baalthor wrote: »

You can argue that a state or an organisation carried out a particular act based on circumstantial evidence. For example, Al Queda were held responsible for September 11 long before anyone was charged in relation to the attacks.

To arrest and imprison an individual usually requires a trial and proof of guilt beyond reasonable doubt, similarly accusing someone of a serious crime requires a high burden of proof.

So for example I can say: "The IRA carried out the Enniskillen bombing" and everyone will agree that this is what happened.
But I can't say: "Mr Joe Bloggs carried out the Enniskillen Bombing" unless Mr Bloggs has actually been found guilty (assuming he's still alive).

And as you can see from the article I linked, it's acceptable to discuss how much the IRA Army Council knew about Kingsmill even though no court-room level evidence has ever been produced to convict anyone.

So, people are not being inconsistent when on the one hand they argue against internment without trial or against accusing individuals of being terrorists while at the same time claiming that the government are guilty of serious transgressions.

" So for example I can say: "The IRA carried out the Enniskillen bombing" and everyone will agree that this is what happened. "

Exactly. The very ones on here defending the Brits with the "well it wasn't proving the British were invovled" will accept without question any allegation about the IRA.

And this when the reason it hasn't been proven of Brit invovlement is due to the British refusing to hand over vital evidence etc, though of course the quislings in the Gombeen state haven't tried to hard in using international support to compel them.

SlabMurphy · 11-05-2010 11:36am

Fratton Fred wrote: »

in a perfect world you would be right.

if the BG knew who was responsible for the Omagh bombing and yet could not bring charges against that person because of fear and intimidation, would you support their "Disappearance" to prevent the likely possibility of them doing the same thing again?

all governments have people who work in murky circumstances and when you are fighting an enemy that plays by whatever rules it sees fit, then i am glad that those people exist.

All counter British freedom fighters have people who work in murky circumstances and when you are fighting an enemy that plays by whatever rules it sees fit, then i am glad that those people exist.

( And then to think so many of the Brits Daddy's are Paddy's

)

LordSutch · 11-05-2010 11:53am

SlabMurphy wrote: »

All counter British freedom fighters have people who work in murky circumstances and when you are fighting an enemy that plays by whatever rules it sees fit, then i am glad that those people exist.

For what its worth Slab Murphy, the 'enemy' that plays by whatever rules it sees fit were the Provisional IRA, and I for one, am glad that they 'The IRA' do not exist anymore . . .

Still no answers for families of Dublin and Monaghan Bombings

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